Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: My own congregation, Don Bosco group, went to northeast India about 100 years ago. But in our area, we have made a very big difference. Missionaries from outside. In my young days, all the missionaries were from outside the country, every country of Europe. So that way we learn much from the international community.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Welcome to the catholic theology show presented by Ave Maria University. This podcast is sponsored in part by Annunciation Circle, a community that supports the mission of Ave Maria University through their monthly donations of $10 or more. If youd like to support this podcast and the mission of Ave Maria University, I encourage you to visit avemaria.edu join for more information.
I'm your host, Michael Dauphine. And today we are joined by Archbishop Thomas Menem Perampel, an archbishop, actually, retired archbishop, 88 years old, almost 60 years ordained, a priest from northeast India. Welcome to the show, Archbishop.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: We're so glad to have you here. And you've recently received a world peace award for 2023 from a human rights group. And you've worked in India as a bishop, as a priest, an archbishop, as a priest, a bishop and an archbishop, and now a retired archbishop for many years. And it's really wonderful to have you here visiting Ave Maria and on the podcast today.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Thank you very much. Thank you for the invitation.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: So it turns out your nephew is an Ave Maria residential. And so that's partly in part why we get to have you in town and on campus for the week. And he was telling us that you're the oldest of ten children and you ended up with three priests and one catholic nun as a, in your family. And so you were ordained a priest back in 19. Was that 60, 519?
[00:02:13] Speaker A: 65? Wow.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: So what a blessing. We want to talk today about your encounters with Mother Teresa, with St. Teresa of Calcutta, and also a little bit about evangelization.
How does the church and how do christians evangelize in many ways in a very diverse global environment. And certainly India counts as one of those. So I'd love to kind of dive into those topics of Saint Mother Teresa of Calcutta and also this topic of evangelization. So now, you know, archbishop, would you talk about kind of several different encounters that you had in your life with Mother Teresa? Would you tell us about maybe the first one of those?
[00:03:04] Speaker A: Yes. Thank you very much, first of all, for inviting me to be with you and asking me to share a few, share a few words about my encounter with Mother Teresa. I consider it a great honor and a great privilege to tell you the truth. I met Mother Teresa in 1958. I was a young brother, not yet ordained a priest, and she was visiting a great shrine called Bandra Church. And she used to come with her younger junior sisters under training three, four times a year to the church, that special shrine. And I remember her alert in conversation, dynamic, quick to relate, quick to comment, and also brisk in her walk with her sister is going from one ground to another, one corner of the shrine to another, another statue in the garden and near to the river, showing that she said, person full of life. So I was impressed by her dynamism, contagious joy, and she impressed me as a mystic in action and seemed to be an incarnation of mercy in spite of. At the time, she was relatively young. Congregation had started about ten years earlier, but she was very clear about what she wanted to do. I remember senior missionaries were saying, she means well. Mother Teresa seemed too well at the time. They were not even calling her mother Teresa sister Teresa. She means well, but challenge is too tough. I don't think many sisters will continue. And yet she began to get vocations. And the more demanding she was in her challenge place before the young sisters, more vocations came, the more generous people came and joined her. So I was much impressed on that occasion when I met her as a young brother.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Wow. And that's, of course, a fascinating time period as well, because in that first decade of her founding the missionaries of charity, with this particular vocation to serve the poorest of the poor, she was relatively unknown. Might have been known maybe in her.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: Local, only in the local situation, in.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: The local environment, but certainly nothing like the fame that she would have at the end of her life and career. So that's also really kind of fascinating to be able to see her. And I love the fact that kind of the wise and prudent of the world said, oh, this won't work.
She's asking too much and the work's too hard.
But how beautiful that she was able to.
We forget that it's very founders of religious orders are they made immense and it's hard and they do not have assurance that their work will bear fruit, surrendering everything to God.
And then. So I think that you met her several years later.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Later, I had met her as a priest several places, but there was nothing eventful. But on one occasion, maybe a couple of years after I was audient priest was traveling from Bombay to Calcutta. All of a sudden, I find Mother Teresa sitting two seats ahead of me. So when I greeted her and just asked her where she was going, Calcutta. She was returning home to Calcutta, in fact. So when we reached Calcutta, she asked me, archbishop, is somebody waiting for you to take you to where you're going to stay? I said, mother, I know Calcutta well. It's already 11:00, 12:00 too late.
I know my way. Don't worry about it. She was insisting that she would give me a lift. She would drop me where I was going to stay, and I had to obey, because when Mother Teresa makes a decision, she is quite strong about it. So she put me in the front seat and sat.
At the time, the old jeeps were. The people were traveling. They had to sit sideways. She was sitting like a young novice, sideways and having a very interesting conversation. She's a good conversationalist. So when we reached the place, we went round the city, actually, several times missed the road.
But when we reached the place, she waited till I got down and knocked at the gate. The gatekeeper opened and the person recognized me. Then only she would take leave of you to make sure that I am safe. Then I asked, mother, please pray for me. And she said, I will, with an emphasis that I repeatedly heard from her. Every time that I asked for prayer, I will. That I'm sure she could not remember me individually, but that she would pray for me. She was very confident, very certain about it. So this was the second time that I met that she gave me a lift, took trouble to go around the city to put me in the right place.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: Now then, apparently later in your time as an archbishop, she approached you to give, to come visit and teach seminars for the novices and the sisters. Is that correct?
[00:08:51] Speaker A: Very many times I traveling to any place pass through Calcutta, northeast, you know, the exit from northeast to other parts of India, pass through Calcutta. Very often I used to meet her, but she invited me to give talks to her sisters. In fact, these days, when I return, I am told by their superior general to give a conference to the sisters, even next week, two weeks from now.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: Wonderful.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: So the tradition still remains. I used to give talks to them, and mother used to sit behind with a little notebook and take in notes like a little girl and asking for the notes that I had in hand. Very often I was speaking spontaneously. He said, Mother, I have nothing. I have not written anything. In other words, she was extremely interested in what I said. Somehow, whenever it was related to the poor, whenever it was about intense relationship with Jesus, deep piety, she always was especially drawn to that kind of vocabulary, that kind of approach to spirituality. I have a book of Christ in the villages, for example, written describing missionary work in the villages. She simple language and a description of what our early missionaries were doing very humbly in the villages with the practical tips. She liked it so much that she gave a copy to younger sister to copy it down. She was not spending much money on buying books and all that early days, when I saw that she was getting it copied by so many people, I said, I sent her 400 copies of the book and she sent it all over the world because she found there some practical norms. Christ in the villages available, I consider, even though it's not a masterpiece of theology, it's a human wisdom and spiritual, you know, somebody of experience of early missionaries. So she found it a very useful.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: Handbook, you know, and that's maybe a really. It's kind of fascinating, too, that even though Mother Teresa and her order were very much focused on prayer and service, care for the poorest of the poor, at the same time she also really valued kind of theological and spiritual instruction.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Exactly. She was very keen that the young people, young sisters, should be convinced of their vocation and the type of commitment they should make of the Lord.
She made high demands. I remember when I go to say mass in their chapel, my voice is very low. Usually in those days particularly, it was very low. And we are very close to the busiest street of Calcutta. So I know that what I said would be heard only by the first benches if it was in that particular place, homily. So one occasion I told mother, mother, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to buy a mic for you and give a donation of a mic to your house so that voice would be carried to the last bench as well. Mother immediately thanked me very sincerely for my generosity as she described it. But she said. She said she would not be able to accept my offer because she said, if we start having a mic in our monthly journal, others will ask. And for her, it was against the concept of poverty. She did not want curtains on the windows, this parlor and other places like that. She stood for austerity. So I accepted her decision. But just to tell the challenge that she placed before the young sisters, they had. Calcutta is one of the hottest places in India, and yet in the summertime, they are not allowed to have fans. They have no fans in Calcutta. Whether they have now, I do not know, but in the sacrifice, there is Fran in the chapel, there is Fran for the priests, but there is no fans for the sisters, for the brothers congregation that she founded later.
So austerity was part of life.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Yeah, actually, I know that Avemer University, for many years, sent over a group of, like a dozen students to visit Calcutta and actually spend time with the missionaries of charity. Right where Mother Theresa, you know, in the mother house there. And it was beautiful, actually, my daughter in law was able to visit and participate in there, and it was a really just a profound experience for so many and so. But, you know, would you tell us a little bit about this book, Christ in the villages? You said that, you know, Mother Teresa liked it so much, she had her sisters copy it out by hand and then sent it around. What are some of the kind of practical tips or stories about these early missions?
[00:14:02] Speaker A: Basically adapt yourself to the people, to their mentality, to their culture, their attitudes, even to their prejudices and their weaknesses. Have an understanding mind. Pope Francis, for example, shows that even in our own days have an understanding, not finding fault with the wrongdoer. Okay, well, they are wrongdoers, maybe in this respect, that respect, but we are looking at the person. And the moment when you show respect for the person, the wrongdoer himself will say, yes, maybe I did something wrong here. In that respect, I did not prove what was right. So that kind of a norm. I just summarized in a brief way, adapting to the mind of the individual whom you want to serve and to the situation that in which you live. So not you expect the situation to adapt to you, not the person whom you're going to help adapt yourself, but the missionary adapt herself, himself to the situation, to the person and the character, culture, prejudices, and even dislikes and dislikes of the other person.
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Now, for maybe listeners or viewers who are not really familiar with the missionary work of the church in India, could you say a little bit about the history of the missionaries?
Kind of. How long has the church been kind of active in India?
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Well, the church was active in India before even Rome.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: I think it was Thomas, right? Wasn't Thomas the apostle who went there?
[00:15:45] Speaker A: Saint Thomas went to India in 52, I think Peter came to Rome 62, I think, about ten years after.
But maybe there was greater openness in the roman empire. There was great conversion. Paul worked very intensely, and in India he didn't have huge numbers. But the christian community that Thomas established with seven churches they speak about seven churches that were established, community has remained, and it is one of the bigger christian communities of India. Later, St. Francis Xavier, evangelized Jesuits, worked Franciscans, carmerites, and various congregations. My own congregation, Don Bosco group, went to northeast India about, say, about 100 years ago. We are one of the latest group, but in our area, we have made a very big difference. Missionaries from outside. In my young days, all the missionaries were from outside the country, every country of Europe. I had among my teachers Italians and Spaniards and Irishmen, slovenian Slovakians.
So that way we learn much from the international community, the Catholic Church. And so we can say there is a Christian, St. Thomas Christians, then St. Xaviers Christians, or that particular period of the jesuit era. There was a rapid growth of a catholic church, then recent years growth, a little more maybe, in the northeast of India that I am representing. And so we together must be about 20 million, I think, Catholics. But we are infinitesimally small in big country. 1,000,000,001.4 billion people.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: Wow. Wow. Now, could you say a little bit.
[00:17:45] Speaker A: Maybe I will speak about one more encounter with Mother Teresa.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: Among other. She was usually very prompt in opening the gate. As you ring the bell, though, there is a gatekeeper, Mother was quick in movement. So I remember I rang the bell. Mother is supposed to come to her. He says, how does she know that I'm coming?
And he said, usually a bishop take her a parlor and likes to tell what happened recently. So she told me the story of how she opened a convent in the eastern part of Europe, east of Berlin Wall.
She said, when I used to go to West Berlin, was very eager to open a house on the eastern side. She made a visit to the mayor of East Berlin, asked him permission to open a convent there.
And the mayor thang mother, praised her for great work she was doing.
But he insisted we in communist countries, we look after the poor. Yeah, your services, Mother. Very much required in capitalist countries where the poor are neglected. And thank you. We are proud of you, but we don't need your help.
Then mother came back disappointed, sad. But the story is like this. That evening or next day, there was a procession near the Berlin Wall. She was walking in procession, saying the rosary with the other group, and she says quietly, she threw a miraculous medal over the wall before us. Catholics, we believe that. I mean, when you do it with faith, it's like a prayer. It's not a magical event or something, but we see like a prayer. So it's through asking the Lord move the heart of the authorities, East Berlin, to allow them to open a gap and maybe already interceded for the same intention.
She got a call, a phone call, soon after that, that evening or next day, says, mother, if you are serious about it, we'll allow. After all, you also will do some good here. And she said, that was the beginning. She said, I need a chaplain. I cannot be sisters alone. Cannot be there. You have to allow a priest to come. So this was the beginning of eastern part of Europe becoming more normal with regard to religious freedom. Sisters father. Then the other church activities given a little more freedom, new missionaries allowed to come in the eastern part of the world. In Russia also, she opened 15 houses. Her aim was to open 15 houses. She calls it three rosaries, you know, but she has gone far beyond Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, many of those countries. She has got Mongolia, she has open convents. So then I told him, mother, that's the kind of medal I would like to have, says bishop. Are you serious? What for you want it? I said, for Arunachal Pradesh, because our government is not allowing us to enter. Part of my diocese is Arunachal Pradesh. There are christians already there, believers there, no priests, no religious, not even a single institution. So I would like to have the authoritative permission from the government.
Mother said, if you're serious, bishop, I'll bring you a medal. And she ran up like a little girl.
And then she brought me three medals.
And very curiously, well, I took the medal, I casted one place called borduria on one side, the other side, I threw it a place called Etanagar, where two convents came, two dioceses have come.
Things became normal gradually. It was the beginning of openness when the authorities side to allow missionaries to go because they were already catholic. Big number. Many students are studying our schools in different parts of India, in our own school, and they were asking, please give us orochro or spiritual guide. So now, out of that two medal, of course, it's too simplistic maybe to say it is because of the medal also hard work or the missionaries effort of the authorities, they allowed. But for us, with faith, we say, well, we also give some importance to. To pray to the Lord. A symbolic action of throwing the medal to the other side, miraculous medal of. In which we believe, wow, that is.
[00:22:40] Speaker B: Such an amazing story. And thinking of Mother Teresa, Saint Teresa of Calcutta herself, right, from Albania and right, who went, I think, to go initially to studied or got her initial formation in, in Ireland, I believe, and then got sent to, you know, India. And then eventually, when she discerned her call within, her call to found the missionaries of charity would eventually help kind of re evangelize, you know, and help to kind of connect with the christian communities within the iron curtain at that time. It's really an amazing thing. And that is a miracle. It is a miracle. And again, to be able to continue to spread the gospel is always. It's always miraculous. It's never a human undertaking.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And since I spoke about the Boduria village where convent came afterwards, several churches and institutions came in that area. One diocese has come. I also like to refer that Bordurya people, the whole village became christian. They wanted to build a beautiful church. And when it was completed, they are very eager that mother should be present there for the inauguration. And I was transferred as a bishop from Dibrugar, where that area was. I was transferred to Guwahati, and therefore there was a vacancy in Dibrugar. And. But since there was no bishop, I invited Mother, can you come, Mother? For the inauguration of that. And she accepted my invitation. Now, I like to put it in context. She was invited by John Paul II to Denver for a youth day, World Youth day. And she had been to several other world Youth days earlier with Pope John Paul. So mother apologized to the pope, saying, I have been to several youth days. There is a little remote corner of India that needs me. Allow me to go there. In other words, she accepted that invitation of that humble village that was having the privilege of having a church for the first time. That area was having a church for the first time rather than come for a world event. Her humility, on the one hand, and her deep faith. And maybe that visit has made a big difference, because very many people of that area have accepted Christianity and giving vocations. That area. There are very many vocations. Only two, three weeks ago, I ordained two deacons as priests from those communities area. So miracles are taking place even in our own days, and not miracles of healing and other things. That is one kind of a miracle that they do take place. But change of miracles of change of heart, transformation of society, renewal of social life. And this is exactly what has happened in these areas. There is general development of those communities that we used to be very backward before with the acceptance of Christianity, with the opportunity for education, good formation given in the seminaries, and the follow up in the villages with Christ in the villages. Kind of a formation you find there that communities have developed or developing fast. Developing.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: Well, how encouraging, and I guess, yeah, Saint Mother Teresa. Right. Pray for us.
And so let's. We're gonna take a break. And as I come back, I wanna kind of think a little bit about Mother Teresa as a bit of an icon for evangelization, how it is that she herself was kind of received by the global community, even the church and India specifically, as somehow like an encouraging example not only to Catholics, but to really all people. And you've done a lot of work in evangelization and peace. And I'd love to. When we come back after the break, have you kind of walk us through some key principles of evangelization again, and in a context that I think is both very different from, very, very different in a lot of ways from the United States, but also one that perhaps actually is something where we can really, in the United States or globally, really learn from, though, what does it mean to practice evangelization in challenging, you know, situation and environment as so many faithful Christians and missionaries have? So we'll return right after the break.
[00:27:37] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:27:45] Speaker C: You're listening to the catholic theology show presented by Ave Maria University and sponsored in part by Annunciation Circle. Through their generous donations of $10 or more per month, Annunciation circle members directly support the mission of AMU to be a fountainhead of renewal for the church through our faculty, staff, students and alumni. To learn more, visit avemaria.edu. Join. Thank you for your continued support. And now let's get back to the show.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Catholic Theology show. I'm your host, Michael Dauphine. And today we are joined by Archbishop Thomas Madam Parampil from India. So welcome to the show again.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: And thank you for talking with us today about your own memories of St. Mother Teresa. And by the way, it is interesting. I remember I wrote an article, we have a book with Sapiensia press called Mother Teresa and the mystics towards a renewal of spiritual theology.
And I wrote a little article at the end, just pulling together.
John Paul II did her beatification.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:28:54] Speaker B: And then Pope Francis did her canonization. And it was, I love the way that Pope Francis said that she will always remain a mother, so that even though now she's St. Teresa of Calcutta, we'll still spontaneously call her. Exactly. Cause in a certain sense, she is an icon of femininity, and true femininity has this aspect of motherhood, and I just always love that element. So in case anybody's wondering why I call her Saint Mother Teresa, I do that. And she also has a beautiful book, come be my light, that people have read. And you've done a lot of work yourself, both not only in actually shepherding a church in a largely non christian society.
You said 20 million Catholics amidst 1.4 billion people, and you have a book called Christ in the villages that was a favorite of St. Mother Teresa's. And you also had a book that just came out in 2021 called Attempt the Impossible, which I loved this image of one point. He said, we need to return to the ways of the acts of the apostles and embrace the exciting mission to attempt the impossible. Could you tell us a little bit about how you ended up pulling together these articles for this book? And where did you get the title, attempting the impossible?
[00:30:26] Speaker A: Well, it's a collection of articles talks that I gave to different groups, and there are articles that I wrote for different journals, so it was a bit difficult to combine it together. But basically a book on evangelization, various contexts and in the world today, anyone who is in the field of evangelization knows you're attempting the impossible.
And what looks like impossible, Jesus seems to tell us, try.
Peter told Jesus, I worked all night I got nothing but at your word I'll cast a net. Let them be impossible. He said, peter was a fisherman he knew there would be no fish Jesus was a carpenter. He's telling, please cast a net on the other side. And well, you have here miracle taking place. Attempting the impossible.
The great missionaries have always attempted the impossible. It is not a new thing at all.
Great challenges that great changes also took place. So that is why I am encouraging people to attempt as possible in, as realizable in each context. Even attempting impossible, something that you consider impossible becomes very difficult, but still possible. What is very difficult becomes not so difficult. Gradually you found what was totally impossible for you, in your view, first. Now it's not only possible, it is fairly easy. It's a pleasure. It's opportunity is offered. And that's why Jesus said, what do you call one who believes that's impossible?
[00:32:12] Speaker B: Yes, yes, that's a really great message. And I think it's also a reminder that ultimately the work of evangelization is not a social program. I reminded of Mother Teresa would often say that, right.
She and her sisters don't do social work. They are really taking care of Christ and the poor. That's right. And I think there was a story of somebody who visited her and said, I wouldn't do what you're doing for a million dollars. And she said, neither would I. And I think that element that it doesn't mean we can't have plans, it doesn't mean we don't need to do work. It doesn't mean we can't talk about what we're going to try in evangelization, but that ultimately the work is not. It's not a social program, it's not social work. It's not a marketing campaign.
It's the work of the Holy Spirit. It is impossible for us, for human beings to spread the gospel apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. And I think that's a beautiful image as well.
And you had mentioned that one of the verses that has guided your 58 years of priestly and episcopal ministry is Philippians four eight. And I'd like to read it here because it is just such a beautiful image. It's right after Paul has said, rejoice in the Lord always. Again I say, rejoice and talks about that element of finding that peace which passes all understanding. But then Paul writes this finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me do, and the God of peace will be with you. How is that beautiful? That beautiful kind of encouragement from, from Paul kind of guided your work in evangelization.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: Because when someone asks you what is the first thing evangelizer should do? And what's the first duty of a christian community in a multicultural, mult, religious, multi ideological society in which we live, I've always suggested, let us try to be a force for good in society, to build up citizens who are authentic, who are at the service of humanity. So all that is true and noble and great and lovely, exactly what the Philippians would do. And no matter what religion you belong to, what your personal belief, faith is, but at least you want to do good to each other. You want, you love society, you look to the future for the entire community.
So be busy with this. And when you are actually busy with it sincerely, you find you are practicing what Jesus said, be salt of the earth, be the light of the world. Salt is not even noticed. When you are working for people with sincerity of heart. We do not know things are being done. You find an atmosphere that is acceptable to all.
And this atmosphere, they are not specifically, specifically thanking so and so individual or this group individually. But we have changed the quality of life of a particular society. Being even a small community, we made a difference. Well, I believe this is one of the very important or central mission for a catholic individual, catholic citizen and a catholic community in a multicultural society.
So evangelization today is not only taking message to new areas, new countries, new villages, but also to new social and cultural and psychological levels and to the world of ideas, the world of attitudes to come into the area of peace, building, probity in public life, good governance, prevent erosion of values and cultures and danger, to damage to environment.
So we are fully committed to all these causes, not only to our specific devotions, but commitment to improvement of society itself. That becomes a central goal of evangelization.
And this passage is very dear to me. Where Gaudi matzpes in Vatican Council 43 says, be ready to dialogue with the world and with men of all shades of opinion. I was always impressed by this, that we as Catholics should have the ability and the desire to dialogue with people of all shades of opinion, including those that are opinions that are completely contradicting all that you say opposing. But you must be ready to invite them for constructive action. We can always invite them constructive action to a sense of responsibility. We can always invite them in that effort. You realize first there's a local responsibility, then national responsibility as citizens, and global responsibility as global citizens. So there are certain things we do ourselves individually, personally, certain things we can just get it done through people. Often we are in charge. If you are a manager of a firm or heading an organization or something, and some you can inspire by doing, just carry on doing your work. Others look at you and see, seem to say you're doing a good job. We like to join you, or we like to do like you. And mother has done exactly this. People who have nothing to do with her, people who had other ideologies, was a communist chief minister that gave Mother Teresa our greatest help and made her famous. She would have become a remainder, a local, forgotten, pious little sister. Unless this hindu chief minister, communist chief minister, not even what you call a particular religion, said mother. We are talking about working for the poor, we communists, but you are doing the work for the poor. We are talking about it, but you are doing the work. So we will help you. You just tell me where you want some land for your work, for your poor and that land is yours wherever you ask within the state. You just point this blood plot, just a minimum of course, for the land and a little space. That land is yours and you can travel within the state wherever you like, free train journey. And so he made many concessions to her which made it possible for her to emerge from isolation and win national attention. First of all, Indira Gandhi and other people. And then international attention, Queen Elizabeth, I don't know, President Clinton, whoever be. So this is what I said, that when you are open to all, after a while all are open to you. Also you are differing in opinion. But I respect you. I respect you as a person and I respect your right to hold another opinion contradicting me. I respect that. So I thought this is our calling to be a force for good where it is very difficult.
[00:39:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And to right speak of those things that are honorable, just pure, lovely, gracious, whatever is excellent, speak of these things. But with that idea that we can do it, as Gaudi Matzbez, 43, suggests, with working, though, with people of all shades of opinion, that we should not, in a way, be surprised by. I think people today speak a lot about the polarity of contemporary societies, maybe worry that social media is exacerbating these things, but in a way that's really just, you know, our situation in the world is that many people are going to have all sorts of different shades of opinion and to work with them. And I appreciate the way that you suggest that if you can invite them to a cooperative, common activity. So, you know, maybe what are some examples that you've seen, maybe from, you know, some of the work you've done in, you know, in India or maybe even some of your observations you've visited and spoken in the United States and really all over the world. You said you had spoken in Siberia.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: And so many holar day.
[00:41:04] Speaker B: Yes, so many different places.
But maybe are there maybe some examples you could draw on your work in India, but also maybe some suggestions you'd say, for, like, what about people who live in contemporary american society, where we're often rather somewhat isolated and individualistic?
How do we work with others to invite them into these kind of common projects?
[00:41:31] Speaker A: It's a very interesting question, though it's extremely difficult. But when I said we need to collaborate with people of all shades of opinion and collaborate with them, discuss with them, dialogue with them, what I mean is, we must keep informed. We must be well informed. World affairs, events, processes, ideologies, and political and economic trends, views that are held with their respective merits and demerits. So in other words, you should be a knowledgeable person. As a good citizen, we must not take for granted. Others will do the thinking, and I will just blindly follow that would not be responsible citizenship today. And a good Christian is also a good citizen, remaining alert and helping others to be alert, helping others to think. As an educator, I used to tell to my collaborators, what is important is not load them with a lot of information that you have already in the making collection of today. The sources of information is abundant. What is important is to help people to think and think independently and critically and able to evaluate situation. Jesus often asked this question, and it's very intriguing that when he said, Simon, what do you think? And he didn't ask just once. When you look at expressions like that in different contexts, he says he was evoking their thoughts, challenging their thought, right or wrong, is it right to do good or evil on a Sabbath day, for example? Question is quite simple, but at the same time it's thought provocative and in a similar way. And when you think about helping people to think, you can also collaborate with people who are thinkers already. I always speak about exerting a healthy influence on the thinking element in society. The thinking exerting a healthy influence on the thinking element in society, by which I mean people like writers, thinkers, poets, artists, educators, who provide a living philosophy for day to day life and on whose opinion usually we keep acting, whether it be commercial world or in political field. Our ordinary life is shaped by persons who are giving us some concepts continuously which are being revised continuously. But in that process of ideas being revised, you make your own contribution, that without even people noticing that so and so made the contribution. Your ideas have been absorbed into the writings of other friends of yours with whom you have got some influence, you exert an influence. This is being salt of the earth. Bossuet, if you remember, a great philosopher said, it's true, I never converted anybody, but I converted public opinion, by which I mean I converted everybody. Because when you reshape the public opinion of society and you are converting their way of thinking, acting, when you say Jesus says repent and believe in the gospel, what does it mean? It doesn't mean about shedding tears. And that is one dimension of it. What he means is change your mind, repent means change your mind, change your attitude, change the value system, have a new world in the world. This is exactly boseway did it in political field, but we in a little wider political field, also economic field, also in a happy relationship, family sphere. And everywhere we help kind of we plant positive ideas. We are planted of positive ideas in the hearts of many people. This is preaching the gospel in the concrete form in various fields of life. And since I have a very intimate relationship with our catholic community, non catholic christian community, very good relationship with the hindu society, as hindu friends and I'm very happy to say people who may not be believing, but they are happy to collaborate towards common good of society as a whole. Since we call it civil society Nagarik Samajai, locally we call that vocabulary. So since I am quite an active participant in that social activities of theirs, they ask for our opinion as well. What do you think about this, father? What do you think about that? He may not be a believer that become a bishop, priest or something, but you're a citizen, you are a colleague of mine, your opinion is important, you seem to have some insight please tell us. And then you find that you are core thinking no more. You are thinking, you're speaking from authority, you're speaking from a high position or something of the kind. We are co thinking with our colleagues who are also thinkers. We influence society in a very big.
[00:46:35] Speaker B: Way, and I think that's so important because we really are influenced and open to being influenced by those we trust.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:46:46] Speaker B: And until we build trust, then the actual proclamation of the gospel per se, in a way won't be heard.
So what have you seen? Or maybe an example or something about where that unique encounter with the person of Jesus Christ and the way that John Paul II and Catechesis Trudende would speak about that at one time.
We can just become overwhelmed by the message of the gospel, overwhelmed by what Jesus Christ has done, and then make a decision to entrust our lives to Jesus Christ in faith.
[00:47:32] Speaker A: This is a mystery beyond the greatest evangelizer. When the one to whom you talk at one moment says, I would like to receive Jesus, I want to see Jesus. But I still insist on the co searching before we, in modern times, especially no more, announce when the house stops, speak with authority. Well, this also is possible, maybe required in context where is acceptable. But there are many other contexts in which when you are a core searcher, like samaritan woman, he says, come and see, come and see whether he is the messiah. So she is not sure.
They are also eager to know. So is co searching. And therefore the evangelizer becomes like that woman who invites and she spoke so well that all rushed out, it shared some convincing power and they discovered together that this is the Messiah. Well, this is possible, this takes place. But what surprises me is when I succeed to convince that Jesus is willing, is an acceptable person, well, he is extremely good for you. To accept to lead a person to that final step is a miracle for me as well. He's not saying anything that I do.
It overwhelms me. I am overwhelmed more by his acceptance of my words, because at that stage it is no more my words, it is his own relationship with God. So this is a mystery of a real mystery of evangelization, that it happens as a miracle. Change of heart.
[00:49:18] Speaker B: Is there one more point you want to mention about evangelization?
Are those, I think because we're happy to. I think right now we're getting to the end of the podcast and so maybe we could transition a little bit. And I usually ask our guests three questions. So archbishop, what's a book you're reading?
[00:49:39] Speaker A: What's a book I am reading, I.
[00:49:41] Speaker B: Should say, what's a book you're writing? But considering what's a book you're reading?
[00:49:46] Speaker A: Well, I am reading so many books together, and since I spoke, being knowledgeable about the present days, I can want to say is I try to book read as many books on the current situation, political, economic field and cultural collapse, moral values simultaneously, several books. I would not just emphasize one individual books, but we need to keep well informed and keep correcting our own opinion. Pope Francis is humble enough to say that we need to study, we need to interact with people of different disciplines, and sometimes they are authorities. And so when what you call Pope Francis is saying that we need other authorities in the scientific field, for example, or economic field, some specialized field, and you are speaking with authority because in the religious field, but that has to be applied to their cultural context, their particular discipline, we need to be as much a learner. This is my greatest discovery. A missionary, but at every stage should be as much a learner as a teacher. He has learned about their culture, their dimensions of their beliefs, their prejudices, their fears, and why they are afraid. Not only we know they are afraid, but why they are afraid. When you know that and you are learning and approaching in that manner, then you emerge as a teacher without knowing that you are a teacher already you are dialoguing with that person. So we become co discoverers of great truth. And when we look at Jesus, we look together and we say, well, I've seen one dimension, one aspect of Jesus faith that a face I never had seen before, because he's looking at from another angle, from another vision of it. And a fresh look at Jesus is always wonderful. It's as much a revelation for you as the first look of Jesus that you had when you were a child and so on.
[00:51:46] Speaker B: That's really encouraging. And a beautiful image that when another person comes to see Jesus, we see.
[00:51:56] Speaker A: Jesus afresh there he becomes our teacher. Yes.
[00:51:59] Speaker B: And so let's, the second question. What's obviously, what's a particular practice, maybe that you do on a daily basis that you think is particularly appropriate and helpful for maybe modern christians to kind of grow in their daily walk with God.
[00:52:24] Speaker A: When people asked to me about how I am keeping good health, 88 years old, I told them, listen to your system, listen to your constitution. Don't go only by one doctor, another doctor. They contact each other. A lot of things that you read in the paper, you want to change the diet this way, that way, read everything. It's very good. Be well informed. But listen to your natural system. Allow it to be itself and be regulated by the sound system that you have inherited. You have inherited. Now let me apply to life as a whole as well. Listen to life in its ultimate realities.
Even persons who are very good overemphasize sometimes on some dimension of goodness to the threat of some other dimension of life that they are not thinking, they mean well. So everything needs to be corrected and need to be completed. And even in the particular sayings that you read and you are especially devoted to him, it's good you have right to do that and the option. But always know there is, there is something like a limit to the vision an individual may have had. So complete it with other visions. So look at global vision of reality, even of your faith. Don't be one sided with one particular saint alone, one particular spirituality style. Or I am a salesian, but I must not be only say, I must know also about jesuit spirituality, franciscan spirituality and so on. Or christian spirituality expressed in the west. It can be completed by spirituality expressed in the east. In Africa, for example, there is great joy in expression. Even during the liturgical service. They have external expression, which in India we would consider not so suitable. But we learn from.
From them that there are other dimensions in the human person. So what I thought was openness, not only to all shades opinion of others, but all dimensions of reality. I would say that openness of mind is required today and never to exaggerate, where often we also, in our zeal, exaggerate and then we threaten somebody else's interest and do damage to other perspectives.
[00:54:54] Speaker B: And so, last question. Were there any beliefs that you held about God that you later discovered were false or that were kind of incomplete? And what was the fuller truth that you discovered?
[00:55:12] Speaker A: Well, we are all the time learning, as you said, so very young days, a human image with your dad getting angry. Also in the Bible there are expressions, human expressions of indignant and so on. On the contrary, over the years you realize God is. He is as he is. It's our own understanding that needs to be revised and changed and accommodated. So his essence is really goodness, truth. Those become cease to be mere words. They become live realities. When you talk about truth and goodness and what is the other?
[00:55:58] Speaker B: Beauty.
[00:55:59] Speaker A: Beauty. When these become live realities and not abstract thoughts, thats for me greater discovery of all not personalized and sentimentalize in such a way that he ceases to be God. He becomes a image of God in human context. Very good. Let us ask an image. It's useful. We have to go beyond that. And then when we keep on searching, that is why he said deeper search is one of the things required for every universities and all must can contribute towards a deeper search on social realities, political and theological realities. A deeper search where you understand God as goodness and we dont need to go much beyond that as truth.
The hindu philosophy thats enough to say God is truth. That means everything, can mean everything. So for example it has got a fullness of meaning there and beauty, Michelangelo and other whatever. But you see when you God is beauty in its fullness, then you say well these three combine for me God in his reality. It's not philosophical terms, but those concepts coming alive and relating with me.
[00:57:22] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much Archbishop Thomas Menamparanto.
[00:57:27] Speaker A: I attempted the impossible.
[00:57:28] Speaker B: Yes, yes, that was beautiful. There's a book with St. Paul's from 2021 called Attempt the Impossible. There's an older book, Christ in the villages, that Mother Teresa loves. Also again, for listeners, that Sapiensia Press of Ave Maria University has a book which actually Roger Nutt and I edited with missionaries of charity, Father Brian Koloda Haecheck, who was in charge of the cause of canonization, I think the postulator of the cause of canonization called Mother Teresa and the mystics towards a renewal of spiritual theology.
If you order that online, by the way, with a code of ct ten, you can get 20% off. So again, just thank you so much for being on the show. I hope our listeners were encouraged by hearing the stories of your encounters with St. Mother Teresa, your work in evangelization, in challenging environments, and hopefully all of us can walk away a little encouraged to attempt the impossible. Again, thank you so much archbishop, for being on the show today.
[00:58:36] Speaker A: Thank you very much for giving me that occasion. I hope I was clear enough with my message.
[00:58:42] Speaker B: Thank you. And thank you again for listening for our audience.
[00:58:47] Speaker C: Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our enunciation circle so we can continue to bring you more free content.
We'll see you next time on the catholic theology show.
