Speaker 0 00:00:00 In the last 50 years, especially, people have kinda suppose that there's a distinction between the church and the institutional church. Hmm. One of the most basic things that I do with students is, say, erase that distinction. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the institutional church is the only church there is. Wow. It's the only church that's founded by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 00:00:30 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Dolphine, and today we're joined by Benedictine Priest and Professor of Theology, max Seckler, professor of Theology at Ave Marie University. Uh, father Guy Mancini, welcome to the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:49 Thanks. Happy to be
Speaker 2 00:00:50 Here. Good. We're so glad to have you here. Now, uh, today we wanted to talk especially about, uh, your new book, or that came out a couple years ago on ecclesiology mm-hmm. <affirmative>, a kind of a, maybe a, a textbook, a theological introduction. And for those who don't know Right. Ecclesiology is the study of the church. Right. The eia. Uh, so just we wanted to kind of just talk a little bit about the church today and get a sense for Okay. Why the church is important. Uh, what were some of the goals that you were trying to address in the book. Okay. Maybe even some of the things you learned while writing it. Okay. Uh, but to just start, maybe just begin with kind of the, uh, I don't know, the most obvious, almost objection, which is Right. Why do we need a church at all, and why should we study the church? Shouldn't we just study? Right. Uh, God and Jesus Christ.
Speaker 0 00:01:42 Okay. Um, well, um, let me begin. In the left field, as it were, I, I, I was thinking about the church, especially during the pandemic, during the, during the years, especially when everybody was supposed to be at home. And, uh, everybody's kind of natural, uh, patterns of, uh, sociability were, were kind of interrupted and cut off mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, uh, one of the terrible things about the pandemic, more to me, even than the, than the kind of physical toll that it took on people mm-hmm. <affirmative> was the mental toll that it took on people. People had a terrible time being at, at home alone. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> with, with themselves and, uh, the rates of mental disturbance, you know, uh, rose during the pandemic. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And for young people, which I thought was so incredibly sad, there were so many young people that had no idea of how to handle this new situation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, there was an elevated suicide rate, for instance, for, uh, young people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, it made me think, it made me think not of the church so much, but of the absence of the church. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because I, I don't like the, the, what what the pandemic revealed, uh, about American society was that so many contemporary Americans, they don't have any interior life to fall back on mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 00:03:15 And I would say that's because they don't have an exterior life. That is, they're not really connected to the, to the things that make sense of our lives. The truth about God, the truth about ourselves, the kind of summation of those truths in Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> both God and man. Yeah. And, well, what does this have to do with the church or the absence of the church? It's the church that makes those truths present to us. We, they, they, they're not kind of like in the, in the virtual world or something like that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they have a, they have a concrete existence in the church, in the institution of the church. And where the institution of the church is absent, those truths are absent also. And, and the pandemic, it seemed to me re realize that so many of, so many American people are just absolutely unconnected to what a Christian would call ultimate reality. And, and therefore did not really, did not really have any kind of resources with which to make sense of what was happening to their lives or any, any sort of way of integrating this, this experience of trial into a kind of an overall narrative of, uh, redemption and, and, uh, helping one another and even virtually and being, uh, unto God. So, I don't know. That's, maybe that's, no,
Speaker 2 00:04:40 That's really a fascinating idea. So what, what I hear you kind of suggesting is this idea that the, it's not so much right. That we study the church, um, as its own, and, but that when we study the church, what we discover is the church is the place where certain truths about God, truths about man, truths about God's plan for us. Yes. And his salvation in Jesus Christ are remembered Yes. And made known. Yes. And when we're in the church, we see kind of, we see something more than merely our everyday lives. Yes. Um, yes. It reminds me in a way that, you know, even if you step outside of, say, theological discourse, but even just in terms of say, scientific discourse, um, you know, I have a family member who's a physicist, and physics is a great Right. And something everyone would agree, most everyone is, you know, a body of knowledge about truth. But apart from physicists actually studying it, remembering it, passing it on, right. It wouldn't exist. We would no longer be able to see the world through the lens of physics were it not actually practiced.
Speaker 0 00:05:54 Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:05:55 And so this, I think is even true. True. Right. On a natural level. Yes. That there's certain truths that we can only see because people are dedicated to learning them and remembering them. And if that's true, right. On a natural level, then on a supernatural level.
Speaker 0 00:06:09 Well, I think, I think that's very, I think that's so true. The, in the, in the last 50 years especially, people have, uh, kinda suppose that there's a distinction between the church and the institutional church. Mm-hmm. One, one of the most basic things that I do with students, uh, you know, maybe just sometimes the first day is to say, I say, erase that distinction. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there is no distinction between the church and the institutional church. The institutional church is the only church there is. Wow. It's the only church that's founded by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And so if you want to get in on it, then you, you have to make friends, as it were with the institutional church, and see why without an institutionalization of the message of the gospel mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and with the grace that the gospel offers us, then it just disappears in, in human life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're far more, we're, we're far more dependent on institutions than we sometimes realize, as you say, with, with regard to physics mm-hmm. <affirmative> without the institutions of the academy, without the institution of the journals, without the institutions that, you know, fund laboratories and things like that, that all ceases to exist. And at, at another level, I, I think that the very same thing is true with regard to the message of the gospel and are, and are being connected, uh, to the true God in, uh, through his true, uh,
Speaker 2 00:07:37 Wow. That's
Speaker 2 00:07:38 Powerful. Um, way of beginning. All right. Which is that there's no, there's no other church than the institutional church. No, I don't think so. So now, given how, I mean, how hard that is, can you, or how that, I think so many people just assume that there's a distinction and, and get frustrated with the institutional church. They do. Um, or what would you say to people who, you know, find the, the blemishes, the mistakes, the annoyances, sins, trials of the institutional church as, you know, kind of an obstacle to their encounter with, uh, God's love and grace?
Speaker 0 00:08:24 Well, I, that's a hard question. I, I think if I, I think of a person tries to answer that simply out of our, out of his, his or her own resources mm-hmm. <affirmative> the way we might criticize, uh, this or that, uh, institution of government or this or that bureaucratic organization, then I, I, I think in the end, that's not very helpful. I, I think what we have to do is we have to go back to the sources that tell us what the church is and why we should trust the church in the first place. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, I, I, I think most criticisms of the church are, are not very satisfactory. They, they don't really cut to the core unless they, unless they, unless they come from a, a, a kind of a broad and deep scriptural awareness, because that's where we learn what the church is supposed to be and how it's supposed
Speaker 2 00:09:23 To happen. Yeah. One of the things that really struck me with your book was your attempt to try to deal with that question of what is the church? And even the question of who is the church? Yes. So, but I think maybe a way of starting into that question is right, this idea of what do we see when we see the church? Because I think in a way, it's like when we see a human being, we're used to seeing the external, right? We see the body, we see the hair, we see the clothes, we see the wrinkles, we see the lack of wrinkles or whatever it is we have. Right. We see all these things, but we kind of intuit, there's a person underneath all that body right. Now, obviously, sometimes people don't recognize that, and that's of course, a, a, a defect, that's a limitation.
Speaker 2 00:10:09 But I think most of us, at least with friends or certain loved ones, we kinda have this intuitive connection that through the external, uh, there's a person there that is worthy of love and capable of giving love. Right. And, but that in a way is Right. That's something that's not obvious to the modern empirical mindset. And I think in a way, the church, when a lot of people think of the church, they in a way stop at the externals. Uh, they think about maybe, you know, the, uh, the image that comes to their mind is the parking lot and the bricks at the local parish church, uh, which might be, yeah, I don't know, red bricks, beige, interior, um, homely, not really winsome or attractive. Right. Uh, they might maybe think about beautiful works of art and great cathedrals in Europe. Uh, they might think about, you know, I don't know what the church said, like with the policies the church has about covid or the policies the church has about parking or the ticket they got when they parked in the handicap spot, you know?
Speaker 0 00:11:27 Well, yes. I mean
Speaker 2 00:11:27 The, all these different things and, and the, and then of course, they think about the politics of the church and the lawsuits against the church, and it's kind of like, they're always stuck at the externals. And so how do you suggest we, we see beyond those externals too, right? The animating, like the wetness.
Speaker 0 00:11:47 There is a, there is one external that I wish everybody would see in the church. Yeah. Uh, and, and that is the kind of, that should be the face of the church. And, and, uh, those are the, the works, the collective works of charity that the church engages in. Yes. Yes. If, if that's what we thought of first
Speaker 2 00:12:05 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 0 00:12:07 The, you know, the soup kitchen that a downtown parish runs Yeah. Or the food bank that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, practically in all areas of the country, uh, the, the diocese or this, that, or the other individual parish runs, if we, if we thought of those things, first of all, as the face of the church,
Speaker 2 00:12:26 Like Mother Teresa's mission
Speaker 0 00:12:28 And Mother Teresa. Yes. If we, and that's what came to mind, mind,
Speaker 2 00:12:31 And the hospitals that we, the hospitals as we know them in many ways, right. Were born of the charitable works Yes. Of the church, the schools of which we're aware in many ways Right. Come from the charitable works of the church. Uh, so seeing in a way, right, that the, the works of charity,
Speaker 0 00:12:47 I think that's the royal road into what the church is mm-hmm. <affirmative> are, are those works of charity. Yeah. And that we should be, Christians should be more forthright about that. That this is our face. Mm. This is our public face mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And if you want to know who we are, look at what we do. You know? And that's the better proof, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:13:11 And that is true also that, you know, if you look at anything else, you don't look, if you wanna figure out what football is, you don't look at the bad players or the injured players. Right. The ones that are either, you know, like, but you think consider who are the greatest Yeah. Players of the sport. Yeah. So to a certain extent, right. We ought to then try to see with the eyes of faith, the great works of charity, especially, that's what I think, both at the local level, but also by the kind of heroes of our faith. Yeah. That's, I think, and, and you maybe also, one thing at least I've found in terms of talking with people, especially people maybe who are disa, affiliating or disaffiliated with the church, is reminding them that the fundamental words, like the fundamental external actions of the church are in the sacraments, right?
Speaker 2 00:14:01 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's, I baptize you in the name of the Father and the son and the Holy Spirit, right. That we can become a child of God, beloved by the creator. Right. That's, or, or that I absolve you ever sins who doesn't have sins, or at least even if people don't recognize them as sins nowadays, or don't speak of them in language, but something of which they're deeply ashamed mm-hmm. <affirmative> something that they've done for which they cannot get rid of the internalized shame. And to think about the words of absolution in baptism and then in confession. Yes. Right. I absolve you of that shame. Yes. Like, I mean, that, and then again, this is my body, that idea that the creator of the universe, Jesus Christ, comes to us in intimate communion. Uh, that, that when we, we think about those works, those are the key external things of the church.
Speaker 2 00:14:56 Yes. Uh, we kind of hear Christ's voice speaking. Uh, I remember reading, uh, I think it was a book called like Catholicism, uh, by Fazar, but he gives this image of the individual Christian at mass getting ready to receive the Eucharist. And he imagines there, the 2000 years of Catholic tradition added on to the 1500 years or more of Jewish tradition, uh, the countless bishops that have passed on things, all of the institution of the bishops, uh, the creeds that had to, you know, argue over elements, all of this sort of stuff, all of the diocesan offices and structures, and the Pope and the entire external reality of the church across the whole globe and across time. But then when the individual hears the words of the priest, right? Yes. Handing Jesus Christ
Speaker 0 00:16:01 Is, all of that exists for that sacramental act.
Speaker 2 00:16:04 Exactly. And then the person right, says, this is the body of Christ, and the person says, amen. The person then receives Right God, Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul, and divinity immediately. It doesn't receive it through the church, so to speak. The church is not, I mediated, the church is the actuating presence that allows mm-hmm. <affirmative> the person to come into immediate contact with God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and so anyway, I always loved that idea that we do have that intimate personal communion with God. And that's really the good news that Jesus Right. Tried to announce and encouraged his apostles to announce that through them and their followers, their works of love and their works of the sacraments. Right. We could become children of God. Right. Friends of
Speaker 0 00:16:59 God. Well, that, uh, I, I, I think you touch on, uh, something that's, that's, uh, that's very important in thinking about the church and, and that's the relation between the community of the church and, and the individual person. Hmm. There's a, there's an important sense in which the community of the church institutionalized as it is Yeah. Exists prior to the individuals encounter with Christ in the sacraments. But without that prior communion, that encounter wouldn't, wouldn't really be available. But then subsequently, once that encounter is achieved personally, then the, then the Christian realizes his responsibility, as it were, to pay back to the, to the community, to the communion of the church, what he has received. And that, and that becomes the font of, well, of the charitable works that we, that, that we've mentioned previously. Each, uh, you know, according to his or her means, uh, undertakes those things.
Speaker 0 00:18:07 So it, it, it seems to me, you, you, you know, you can think of the church as a kind of an hourglass. There's a, there's a community prior to the individual, but the, but the neck of the hourglass is, you know, is, is the individual and the, and the prior history, the prior institutional forms are so that that individual can have that encounter with Christ and God. But then subsequently to that, then, as it were, the individual rejoins, the rejoins, the community, and, uh, happy with his brothers and sisters in Christ undertakes things that, that we ourselves have our own individual powers could, you know, could not accomplish. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:47 Wow. That's really beautiful. It, it's almost, you see that as a supernatural, uh, mode of what happens within a family. Right. The family is prior to the child that is welcomed into the family. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and for a while. Right. You know, the, I don't know, you know, you see that very definitively because the child is utterly dependent upon Yes. The family.
Speaker 0 00:19:11 He's completely needy.
Speaker 2 00:19:12 Yes. But then at a certain point, you know, fast forward 50 years, you know, sometimes that child Yes. Is then carrying on the family Yes. And taking care of,
Speaker 0 00:19:22 I think that's a perfect, that's a wonderful analogy.
Speaker 2 00:19:24 You know, that, um, so we are welcomed one at a time as persons for that personal relationship with God, but only because of the prior existing communion Yes. Of the church. And then we're called to carry that communion forward. Right. And to pr carry out mission. Yes. Right. That to be the church is
Speaker 0 00:19:45 The democracy of the church is, uh, the, the way many, uh, conservative political theorists think mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the, the democracy of the church, you know, reaches back in time, as it were, the people who are dead, but who witnessed to the faith by their works. And, you know, and the sufferings that they endured, they're still, as it were with us, they're still voting. And, and then, but then also looking towards the future mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're, we give back to the, to the people from whom we have received by giving forward to the people who come after us. That's, uh, that's the way many thinkers wanna think of political society as a whole. But I think it's absolutely necessary to think of the church that
Speaker 2 00:20:28 Way. Yeah. So that's where I think, uh, GK Chesterton, uh, in one of his books described tradition as the democracy of the dead, the
Speaker 0 00:20:36 Democracy of the dead strangest. That's
Speaker 2 00:20:37 Right. Thing we give the dead votes, and we recognize that so much of what we have today is because other people have received it and passed it on. And also that when we receive and pass on,
Speaker 0 00:20:48 Yeah. We're just steward, we're just stewards for a while, for our own moment. We're stewards of this gift
Speaker 2 00:20:54 And indispensable stewards in a way. So we recognize that we're not necessary because the church has already exist. God has already done everything he needs to do in Jesus Christ. And yet, on the other hand, we play Right. And irreplaceable necessary role that, but for us joining according to God's plan and choice, right. We can never choose to be adopted. You know, God's God loves us first, but when we may say yes and enter into the community of the church, then we, uh, are the church in a way spreads through us in a way that it, it, it couldn't have just as a skin when we say yes, you know, to our families. And of course, our families are imperfect and broken in all these different elements. Um, and so we see though, that when we move to the church, that the church, in a way, in her essence, really is that family, not of the human family, but the family of God. Right. In a way. The, the very father, son and Holy Spirit. So, you know, uh, I, I wanna take a break for a minute. Uh, but when we come back, I'd love to ask you a little bit about how you got interested in studying theology. Okay. How you got interested in, um, writing a book about, uh, the church, and, uh, just give our, uh, listeners and viewers a chance to get to know you a little bit more. Okay.
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Speaker 2 00:22:42 So, father Mancini, uh, tell us a little bit about how you maybe became a monk, how you started studying theology.
Speaker 0 00:22:50 Oh, it's, uh, it's, it's, it is not, it doesn't have very many interesting details. The story, I, uh, I, I thought from a very early age, probably, uh, when I was 10 years old mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that I wanted to be a priest. Alright. Wow.
Speaker 0 00:23:07 Uh, and the diocese sent seminarians to, uh, St. Minor Arch Abbey and Seminary for their training. Well, the, the seminary as attached to an Abbey then, uh, opened my eyes to a, another way of being a priest, then simply being a diocesan priest. And I liked the, and I, and I liked the, the way the, the monks lived because they could give themselves over, uh, very much to, uh, study and then teaching, uh, the seminarians that were in their care. And that, uh, that attracted me so much that I, that I, as it were, jumped ship from the diocesan priesthood and, uh, signed up with the Benedictines. Oh,
Speaker 2 00:24:00 That's great. That's great. That's kind of just like, um, kinda like just one step at a time and, uh, right. And saying yes to opportunities and Yes. Kind of being attracted by the beauty of the Yes. The Benedictine monastery.
Speaker 0 00:24:13 Well, certainly when I went, when I went to the seminary, I had no idea that I, that I was Oh, okay. Would maybe become a, a, a monk or a Benedictine, and that was all mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that, that all kind of was very, what should we say, kind of opportunistic mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> providential. I guess we
Speaker 2 00:24:29 Should, yes, yes, yes. And you think there, there is part of that, even with respect to the church, right? Is we, you know, sometimes it's just like we stumble into Yes, we do churches, we stumble into liturgies. Right. We stumble into maybe conversations with Christians Yes. About, or we pick up a
Speaker 0 00:24:45 Book. Yes. It's like, uh, you know, it's like St. Anthony's story. He, yeah. He, he walked into church one day and he read the, and the gospel that was being read for the Mass was, uh, uh, sell everything that you have and come follow me. And he said, well, how am I gonna do that? And so he become a monk. Yeah. In the desert. Wow.
Speaker 2 00:25:03 That's beautiful. How did you end up st um, then going to Rome and study theology?
Speaker 0 00:25:08 Well, I, uh, as, as I say, I, I was always attracted to that, and the, the powers that be at the Abbey and in the seminary, they, they thought that I was a good bet, uh, you know, to, to finish a theology degree and, uh, and then come back and, and, and work in the seminary. And, and, and so it was mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I went to, uh, Rome and lived at San Selmo, the kinda international Benedict House there, but studied at the, but studied with the Jesuits at the Gregorian University because I, because I, I was more interested in, uh, as it were, the breadth of dogmatic theology, rather than the specialization that San Soma itself offered in Sacramento. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So,
Speaker 2 00:25:52 And so your, your dissertation was on what is dogma, right?
Speaker 0 00:25:55 Yes. Uhhuh. So, uh, <laugh>, which has really kind of a, I don't know, it was a, it was a more of a dissertation in fundamental theology than dogmatic theology. But it was, uh, it, it, it was a, it was a good topic, and it's repaid me many, many times over the years. If you get, if you're, if you're director gets you onto a good topic mm-hmm. <affirmative>, why, then, uh, he gives a gift to you that never stops giving. And that was true in my, in my own kind of scholarly life. So I, I, I had a lot to, uh, thank my, uh, director for at
Speaker 2 00:26:31 That point. And it's kind of fascinating too, cuz if you think about that, what is dogma? What is really, what is the nature of Christian belief Yes. As it's been expressed in certain, uh, statements. Yes. Right. You know, Jesus is Lord. Right. God created the universe. Yes. Right. These different, uh, dogmatic utterances. Uh, and in a way that kind of, it, it kind of sets you up in part for this recent project, which is not what is dogma, but what is the church mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So maybe how did you, how did some of that work that you did on the foundational questions of what is dogma shape, the way you approached, what is the church?
Speaker 0 00:27:14 Well, uh, I, because of the dissertation, then the, the, the church was always, or foremost in my thought as, uh, the custodian of revelation by way of enunciating dogma, which are, as it were, dogma stand to sacred scripture as, uh, kind of guideposts. This is when you read sacred scripture, keep these dogmatic truths in mind, and you'll, and you'll read rightly. You'll get the, yeah. You'll get the, the gist of the message. So the, so the, uh, uh, but, but, but the church, and not simply the kind of the custodian of dogma, by the way, teaching dogma, but the first articulator of dogma by way of the teaching of, uh, hope and bishops. So, uh, so, so in that way, the, the dissertation, uh, was a sort of a topic on dogma was a sort of a natural lead into thinking about the church more mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:28:14 <affirmative> and even in a way, articulating scriptures. Right. In terms of both writing and then, uh, collecting the scriptures, proclaiming the scriptures in the early church assemblies, and then Yes. Uh, you know, codifying and canonizing scriptures. Yeah. Uh, so maybe then in addition to, we talked earlier about the external works of the church in terms of the works of charity, and then we also talked about some of the sacramental works of the church, maybe then a third external action of the church that we really ought to see is the church's teachings. Yes. Right. Well, that the teachings in a way that are, um, present in scripture and in the right dogmatic utterances, maybe the creeds or other aspects of what we believe are really something maybe that are not as immediately.
Speaker 0 00:29:09 Well, and those are, those are the three Yeah. Tasks, as it were, that, uh, that's scripture. People use to, as it were, analyze, make sense of the ministry of our Lord. Which tasks get passed onto the apostles and then are themselves discharged by the church, the task of preaching all orders, first of all. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, rabbi, teacher, and, uh, the word incarnate. Yeah. But yeah, he's also the, the one who sanctifies us and is, uh, the priest. So he's prophet, priest and king. Yes. And what is the kingship of Christ consistent, especially ruling us through charity and enabling our own charity. So those three things then that mark our Lord's ministry that are, are passed on immediately to the church and are, and then are, you know, they're realized now in what, in, in the preaching sanctifying and as it were, organizing, ruling, administrative, uh, capacity of the church, which, uh, uh, to repeat, uh, really to, uh, you know, to, to give itself over, especially to the works of
Speaker 2 00:30:21 Charity. Yeah. Now, when I was, uh, looking at your book and, and reading through it, I was, uh, interested and kind of intrigued, uh, that instead of beginning with what is the church and kind of ecclesiology proper, you begin with kind of a preparatory Yes. Uh, section three chapters where you deal with questions about the historicity of the gospels.
Speaker 0 00:30:46 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:30:47 Um, kind of, did Jesus really found a church. Yes. So tell us a little bit about how you, what, what made you decide to do that?
Speaker 0 00:30:55 Well, the series for which the book was written is, uh, aimed at a kind of a broad audience. Uh, not just, uh, theologians, not just seminarians, but, uh, uh, this, this series wants to be, uh, kind of available to, uh, somebody in a college theology program whose, uh, you know, the, the requirement is that they have, uh, six hours of philosophy and they have six hours of theology. And, uh, that, and how they make those hours up could be anything. But one of, one of the ordinary ways, uh, is for, uh, a college student to, you know, to make up those hours in a, in a, in a Catholic college is to take a Christology course, or an ecclesiology course, or a sacraments course. But I, I thought to myself, if, if there's some, if there's some young people and, you know, they have their, they have to do their three hours or six hours and, and the, and my book is maybe the only theology book that they'll ever read from stem to stern mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 0 00:32:06 Then, then I want to get maybe a little bit more done <laugh> than just talking about the church. And so the, and so the, and so the first part of the book is very much apologetically oriented. I was thinking the first part of the book is for, is for a, is for a sophomore who doesn't want to be in the class. <laugh> <laugh>. But he's, but he has to be in that class, and he has to read this book mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, so the, so the, so the first part of the book is as a word, why you should think seriously about Jesus of Nazareth and, uh, the church in which his teaching and his actions are still available to us. So, so that was the, that was the sort of,
Speaker 2 00:32:49 Well, so I'm
Speaker 0 00:32:51 Attempting to do that talk
Speaker 2 00:32:52 About what is the church? You have to go back cuz what's Jesus. Yes. Right. You know, what is Jesus? Who is Jesus. And I think
Speaker 0 00:32:58 Why does, and I think especially today, uh, I think people are very skeptical about the historical reliability of the hospitals. Well, well, there's a long story to tell there, but I think de facto, that's what people approach the new, uh, that is sort of, oh, it's sort of in the air of the scholarly world that the, that the gospels are not really historically trustworthy, I think, uh, that they are historically trustworthy, but in, in order to really, to, to draw somebody into the church, they have to be, they have to know that mm-hmm. <affirmative> and they have to know the good historical arguments Yeah. For the historical objectivity of the gospels. Yeah. And once, you know, once a person is convinced of that or, or is kind of running, ready to give that a shot to them think, you know, think how many people over the ages have been con, you know, they say, well, Christianity, uh, I don't know what that is or what that's about, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna give that a try that pick up the New Testament. And they, you know, I go to the first page of the New Testament, which is the gospel according to Matthew, and they start reading Matthew's Gospel. And by God, truly by God, before they get past, say, chapter 16 or 17, they're, they're caught. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that is, they're caught by faith. And they see that Jesus of Nazareth really does speak a sort, a sort of a self evidencing true word that matters in their life. And so that's happened countless times over, you know, over the world.
Speaker 2 00:34:39 You know, it's, it's CS Lewis wrote once, uh, in, I think it was on biblical criticism or something. But anyway, he said that a lot of people wanna say, oh, the gospels are legends. And Lewis, of course, was a great scholar of Yes. Medieval and Renaissance literature.
Speaker 0 00:34:55 He knew a legend when he met
Speaker 2 00:34:57 One. And, and, and in some, some people would say he is that, um, he was the most, like, he was one of the most well-read people ever, just one of those people that started reading great legends in the original languages as a teen and never forgot anything he wrote. And, uh, he'd read and all these different things. And he just said, look, I know Legends <laugh>. And he said, this
Speaker 0 00:35:18 Is not, these are
Speaker 2 00:35:18 Not legends. These are, these are these, these are not, they're, they're written in the odd way that eyewitness accounts Yes. Of historical facts and of people wanting to say why these things happened Yes. And why they're important. And they're just a different, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're a different genre and, and they are really kind of what they claim to be basically, uh, gospels Yes. That are articulating what happened in Jesus Christ and who he was, who he taught, and how ultimately Right. He died Yes. Once and rose again. That's the trajectory.
Speaker 0 00:35:55 They, they still possess the original power mm-hmm. Of, of the word. That's, you know, it's no accident that, uh, that, that the Chinese government is very careful about. Mm-hmm. You know, the introduction of, uh, the Bible and the New Testament mm-hmm. And wanting to control that and wanting their, have their own version of things like that. Yes. They know the power of the, of the New Testament and so mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:36:19 <affirmative>. Right. And, you know, it's interesting too, I think some people, uh, there was a famous modernist theologian, um, Alfred Laozi in, um,
Speaker 2 00:36:31 Yes, exactly. On, you know, the, the gospel in the church in, he wrote that I think around like, you know, 1900, 19 0 3 or so. And, uh, but anyway, he famously said, criticizing, you know, the, the Catholic understanding of the church, but saying Christ preached the kingdom and the church came. So this idea that Christ, the Jesus Christ just preached the kingdom of God. Um, and then, you know, I mean, in the New Testament is really about the kingdom of God and about Jesus. And then later the church kind of mess got everything, you know, messy and confusing and kind of tried to create this other thing called a church. How would you respond to that, do you think, um, to somebody who has a who who doesn't think in a way that the church started with Jesus or that the church is in the New Testament?
Speaker 0 00:37:27 Well, um, uh, uh, two things come immediately to mind. And that is that we, we, we wouldn't hear or read the, you know, the record of the preaching of Jesus repent for the kingdom of God's hand. That that wouldn't really be available to us. That news about the kingdom except for the church, you know, uh, our dependence once again as historical beings and as social beings on institutions is, is it, it just seems to me very naive of anyone to suppose that, that we would, that there would be available to most people, any real connection whatsoever with the historical Jesus and, and the, and what he actually historically preached except for the institution of the church. So, uh, I I think that's, you know, that's, that's one way to, you know, to engage that, that, that sort of observation.
Speaker 2 00:38:31 But the church is the very context by which we've heard about Jesus. Yes. Apart from yes, the church and the church's writings and the church's scriptures,
Speaker 0 00:38:39 Yes,
Speaker 2 00:38:40 There
Speaker 0 00:38:40 Is. But then secondly, the New Testament is saturated with things about the church. Uh, the, one of the central images of the church is, uh, in the, in the New Testament is that the, you know, the church is the, is the new and kind of final temple of God, temple, the place where God meets man. And, uh, you know, if, if you just look at that in, in, in modest to detail through the New Testament, why then you see that all sorts of interesting things, or identified as the Temple of God, Christ himself is the, he speaks of the temple of His body in the John's Gospel. And then, uh, Saint Saint Paul conceives of the, the, the Christian community as a temple of the Holy Spirit. And, uh, we, we connect the, the temple, the meeting place of God and man, which the church is with a sort of perfect temple that comes down the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven, that we expect in the last book of the New Testament, the, uh, apocalypse of John. So, so at that point, if you have, with just a little bit of kind of what, uh, guidance, then it turns out that the, the church just kind of shows up, uh, everywhere mm-hmm. <affirmative> in scripture, not just the New Testament, but also, uh, in, uh, in, in the Old Testament too. Because Israel is the, as it were, is as it were, the first church and, uh, the, the, the, the church of our Lord and Savior is the, is the completion and sort of re christianization of that original community. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:40:29 And in many ways, right, it's sin fractures, I think it's, uh, the devil dilu Right. In some ways is a
Speaker 0 00:40:38 Scatterer. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:40:39 Yes. Satan, Satans is the accuser. So on the part of sin in the Bible, we have the scatterer and the accuser, we become scattered because we become accusatory of others in accusatory of ourselves. And so God's plan for redemption has to move us from isolation to connection, from accusing one another to communion. Yes. Right. So I think these different elements are very kind of powerful. And, and then we can think about what would it mean for us? What would it mean for God to have a plan for our happiness that didn't involve us somehow entering into that deeper communion? Right. Yes. That communion of family, uh, city, uh, connection. Right. You know, we're kind of creative for connection, and it goes right to Jesus. You, I was thinking of Jesus' words in Matthew 16. Right. I will tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my church. And the powers of death shall not prevail against it, the church. So what Jesus is doing by wanting to save us is not just save us as individuals, but save us personally to become part of a communion in which the gates, the powers of death, the gates of hell Right. Cannot prevail against it. You no longer can the accuser or the scatterer fracture. Right. What God has kind of made one in his church.
Speaker 0 00:42:08 Yes. And that's the, the foundation of the church there at, at that point, de depends centrally and is grounded. Uh, you can say it's grounded on the, on the faith of Peter, but then, you know, Peter's faith is what connects him immediately with, with Christ. And so, you know, if you, if you just look at what, what is the foundation of the church according to the New Testament? Well, sometimes that's the apostles, but then other times the foundation of the church is Christ himself, and that's the, the, you know, the one who so experiences and suffers the scattering and the disbursement unto death of the devil that he depo potentiates it and makes possible now on the, on the other side of what the devil has done to us and what we do to ourselves by conspiring with the devil, it makes possible on the other side of that a, a sort of a communion with him, the Son of God then, which no kind of more, more perfect relation with God could be imagined. You know, there's a
Speaker 2 00:43:24 Shit. So when about the church, we don't want to think about it on really, we don't wanna think about it kind of as a sociological horizon, uh, entity primarily. But the church was really born from Christ. Yes. So Christ's own, as you put it, the way he suffered accusation, suffered Yes. Disbursement in his death and rejection, but overcame that in his resurrection. And it's Yes. That overcoming of it, his pulling everything back together, saying to his apostles peace. And when he does that, he gives the spirit. So when we think about what's the source of the church, it's really the father acting to bring together his people through Jesus Christ's risen in his body and bride so that we can become Right. The temple of the Holy Spirit. Yes. And so we're not just talking about kind of a historical sociological
Speaker 0 00:44:18 No, because reality, because the very action by which, by which Christ accomplishes, that is available to us every time we go to mass.
Speaker 2 00:44:25 I see. And that's why I like the, when you said that it's not just what is the church, but it's who is the church? Cuz we see who, who is the church? The church is Jesus Christ. The church is the activity of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Uh, reminds me, I remember in Ratzinger's introduction to Christianity, um, then Ratzinger who became Pope Benedict and now Pope Benedict Emeritus. Uh, but he says that in the Apostles Creed, we say, I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic church. And he always loved that. He says, that's really one article. Yes. And so the belief in the Holy Spirit is believing that the Holy Spirit is acting in the church. And it also means that you can only believe in the church if you believe that the Holy Spirit is not just the buildings or the people, but is the Holy Spirit acting in them. And I think that's something that is, uh, really, you know, uh, hopeful, um, and is just kind of a powerful vision that really,
Speaker 0 00:45:19 Well yes, it kind of
Speaker 2 00:45:20 Us up to a communion with God personally through the communion of the church.
Speaker 0 00:45:26 It re it returns us to one of the great, uh, patristic understandings of the church as, as the effect and as sort of the, the, the product of the Holy Spirit as, uh, St. Ania says, you know, UBI EIA spirit to us, wherever the church is, there's the Holy Spirit and where the Holy Spirit is, there is the
Speaker 2 00:45:49 Church. It's almost when we're, it's, uh, somebody said once to me that when you're in the picture, you can't see the picture. Yeah. And it's kind of like, I think when we're in the church, we can't see the church when we're in the church, we don't realize all the church has given us. And so we often want to, you know Right. It's like you want to throw off the shackles of the institution or something, and then you forget that everything you see, namely a good loving God who cares so much for us. Right. That is willing through the cross and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to restore us in a communion and for through the forgiveness of sins and the sending of the Spirit, all those things Right. Are there because you're looking through the telescope of the, the, of the church. And if we throw off the telescope, hard to see it. So hard to see, you know, father, you, you did write a, um, a, a wonderful book here. Uh, I think it really, I think would be a great, uh, you know, maybe I think, uh, for people that are interested in theology or interested in learning more about the church, I think, uh, you know, a willing, um, you know, layperson could definitely, uh, tackle the book. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:46:52 I, I try to ex I I do have a kind of a brief explanation of how theology is supposed to work in there. One of, one of the chapters addresses that.
Speaker 2 00:46:59 So there, and I also think this could be a great maybe gift for a lo do you think this would be a good gift for a local, you know, for, uh, somebody who's listening and for their local pastor or associate pastor or just kind of the average priest out there? Because one of the things I've noticed is that priests often study a lot in seminary, and then afterwards, uh, they're so busy. Uh, yes. And I feel like that desire for, uh, continuing reading, continuing education,
Speaker 0 00:47:24 I, I, I, I think so the, the, uh, maybe for a priest or the, the more, the more valuable chapters would be the, uh, the sort of, uh, uh, collection of certain kind of scriptural themes, which is one of the most satisfying things in writing the book was to, was to, uh, take the image of the church has the bride of Christ, and, and see where that is in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. See how that, that image of the, of the marriage of, uh, the, the Lamb and the bride of Christ, how that kind of unifies the whole scope of, uh, of, of scripture, of those, of the scriptural kind of presentation to us of Christ and his work from Genesis to the, to the lens.
Speaker 2 00:48:14 Yeah. There's a profound, profound engagement with scripture in your book. Right. As you go through, um, right. The bride, church's, bride of Christ, body of Christ, temple, the Holy Spirit. Right. People of God. And then eventually connect those with the what's sometimes called the four notes of the church. Yes. Yes. I believe in Right. One Holy Catholic and apostolic church. Yes. So definitely, you know, in our conversation, we haven't really kind of gotten, uh, we've only kind of begun to kind of enter into, uh, the real depth of the book. Uh, but I definitely get something that would just be a real, um, blessing for so many people. Uh, and not only for their own understanding of the church, but I feel like anyone who's working in, in the church today, or really, uh, catechists teachers, uh, priests, even bishops, right. They're constantly, I think, surrounded by people who have a lot of confusion about what the church is. And, uh, so to be able to understand it and seeing its role in God's plan for our salvation, uh, would be a real gift. You know, before we kind of begin our closing, I'd love, could you maybe just say, what are three takeaways that you'd love people to, uh, have if they read the book?
Speaker 0 00:49:32 Well, one of 'em, we've, we've touched on the, the sort of the saturation of ecclesial ecclesiological reality in the scriptures. I think that's, that's, that's very important to see, that's very important for a Catholic to see. Uh, a second thing would be, you know, I I, I recalled a moment ago, uh, St. Ane as dictum about where the Holy Spirit is, there is the church and vice versa. But also, I, I think what's super important for Catholics to see, we could, we could alter his little dictum and say U Eia and vice versa, where the Eucharist is, there is the church and where the church is in, in her fullness. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I, I don't, I don't wanna, I, I don't wanna say that Protestants don't have a, a, a real relation and, and, uh, and a kind of a partial belongingness to the church, but, but where the church is, there's the Eucharist where the church is in her fullness. Yeah. There's the Eucharist, where the Eucharist is, there's the church. And, and I, I, I, I, I think, I think a renewed, a more vivid apprehension of that on the, on the part of ordinary Catholics would be a super good thing for us to have. Yeah. And that, you know, we, we actualize our ecclesial identity. We, we bring the church to realization when we gonna mass on Sunday. That's, that's what
Speaker 2 00:51:08 That seems what the bishops in the United States have called for that Eucharistic revival Yeah. As well. So that's great that I think your book on the church is really in a way points to Right. The fullness Yes. In a way of the Eucharist. Yes. So that's also a great, I've
Speaker 0 00:51:25 Re connection. I've relied on a lot of contemporary French, uh, systematic, uh, theology and scholarship at that point. Yeah. But I, I think they're, I think they're on the money there. I
Speaker 2 00:51:36 Really do. That's great. So, well, um, I wanted to ask you just three questions I like to ask. Um, okay. My guests on the show. Uh, what's, um, something you're reading lately?
Speaker 0 00:51:45 I am reading, oh, it's so good. I mean, alleviate Toma, ve Bernards mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the Poetic Christ, just, it's, uh, uh, it's a, it is a sort of a condensation of his, the trilogy that, that he wrote. It's, uh, uh, about a third of the trilogy put into English, which I'm glad my, my French is Okay. But, uh, for really technical stuff, it's very nice to have an English translation.
Speaker 2 00:52:13 What does poetic Christ mean? Just real quickly. The
Speaker 0 00:52:15 Poetic Christ is the, is the Christ who makes our language really speak the truth about God and ourselves. Wow. That's POIs, so to speak, in the mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the sort of, the, you know, the, the original Greek meaning they're the Yeah. The Christ who makes our language work and who makes our language work because he is the incarnate word of God. And so he empowers our own words. It's a wonderful, I'm reading that right now. It's one.
Speaker 2 00:52:48 Oh, that's great. That's great. Uh, second question, what's a, what's a practice, uh, that you do maybe on a daily basis to find meaning and purpose?
Speaker 0 00:52:59 Oh, my, well, I, I, um, I always try to pray that the, my, uh, my, my prayer life is, uh, kind of, uh, centered around two things. I, I try to pray the Anima Christi, you know, very sincerely and completely, uh, once a day soul of Christ, sanctify body of Christ. Maybe it's, uh, any, anybody who's not a of aware of, of that, that prayer, all you have to do is Google Anma Christi. Yes. Or, or, uh, so, and you'll get the whole, uh, beautiful, uh, prayer. It's a prayer about, uh, conforming ourselves to Christ. So I try to, I try to do that seriously once a day, and then, uh, and then I, uh, always visit, uh, the shrine of our Lady of Guadalupe on campus because, uh, because I want to commend, especially the people that I love to her. So
Speaker 2 00:53:53 I, yeah. That's a beautiful shrine on It
Speaker 0 00:53:55 Is.
Speaker 2 00:53:55 It's a beautiful shrine. That's great. And, uh, last question, since this is a show about theology, uh, the idea is that right. Our, our our ideas about God matter, good ideas are helpful, and bad ideas are harmful. So, very true. What's one false idea that you may be held about God at some point, and what's the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:54:13 Hmm. Golly, you've got me stumped there. <laugh>. I'd say that, uh, false idea is the, I'd say the false idea is the idea that we bring anything to God that, uh, he lacks or that we, that we enrich God by our own, uh, worship or by our, by our own Christian life. This is a, this has been a kind of a, a modern, a contemporary temptation, but I, but I, but I think the, the scriptures themselves teach us, uh, to think better when, when Solomon dedicates the temple and the Old Testament in the Book of Chronicles, there's a beautiful prayer, uh, of the dedication of the temple. And he says, addressing his prayer to God, he says, we offer back to you in sacrifice the things that you have already given us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's all we, that's all we can do is return to God gifts. That if we receive them well, we receive them knowledgeably. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and return. I think that's
Speaker 2 00:55:37 Super. Yeah. Right. The greatest gift in a way that we can gift to God is Thanksgiving for all the gifts we've
Speaker 0 00:55:43 Received.
Speaker 2 00:55:43 Yes. That's beautiful. Well, uh, you know, for those who would like to, uh, read more or, uh, get a copy of the book, uh, the book is Ecclesiology, uh, by Father Guy Mancini OSB for, uh, St. Benedict. Uh, it's in the Sacred Series at CUA Press. Um, you can find more about Father Mancini at the Ave Maria website, uh, and also you can, uh, get the book at, uh, cua press.org or, um, on other, you know, places to Buy books. So. Well, thank you so much, father, for being on our show. I really enjoyed it and, um, learned so much, uh, from your book and from all of your teaching and from, from this conversation, uh, about Right. God's plan for us in the church super and, uh, giving us this great gift for which we can be thankful. It was a pleasure. Great. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 00:56:33 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
