Speaker 0 00:00:00 That's what Dante, the poet is doing throughout the whole work. He's appealing to us to convert, to turn towards God, to find the via <unk> to find that mm-hmm. <affirmative> that straight path and not wander off as he did. And it's, it's a spiritual autobiography, so it's about Dante himself while it's also about us following behind him.
Speaker 2 00:00:28 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Avi Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Dnet, and today I am pleased to be joined with a colleague, Dina Bazile Kelly, uh, professor of humanities and literature at Ave Maria University. So glad to have you here on the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:47 Thank you for having me, Michael. It's my pleasure.
Speaker 2 00:00:50 Excellent. So, uh, Dr. Kelly has dedicated really, you know, her life to studying, um, right. Italian literature and especially Dante, right. The great poet in many ways, at least. This has definitely been one of, um, your lifelong, uh, loves. Right?
Speaker 0 00:01:09 Um, yes, absolutely. Uh, uh, it takes a lifetime to study Dante <laugh>, and I did start in another direction with Renaissance literature and then slowly discovered my, my love of Dante along with developing, um, deepening my faith. So, yeah's it's a lifelong endeavor for sure, but definitely worth, uh, the process from beginning to end. Yeah. That's
Speaker 2 00:01:29 So great. And I was so pleased to see that you'll be, and you have taught, and you will be teaching a whole course on Dante for the students of the university, correct?
Speaker 0 00:01:38 Yes. I do that every other year. Yeah. We have a Dante course mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I've, I've, uh, modified it in different ways, but it, it's definitely a blessing to be able to offer that in a small university, to have a free standing Dante course. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, sometimes I embed it within a, uh, course of medieval literature to expose the students to other literature as well. But to have that space of a whole semester, um, is, is really, uh, it's a privilege.
Speaker 2 00:02:03 Yeah. And so one of the things we're excited about today is we're gonna offer our listeners and viewers right. To sneak peek into your course. Terrific. Right. And to kind of get to see some of the highlights. Um, I'm, I've been blessed to be able to teach, uh, Dante as well. Uh, I teach, uh, Dante as part of the humanities, uh, sequence, the humanities seminars, and we actually end, uh, the kind of fall semester of the ancients, beginning with, you know, kind of the ancient Greeks, or Homer and Plato and Aristotle, uh, and going all the way up through Christian revelation, and then kind of ending with a read through all three parts, the, the entire divine comedy. Uh, and then in the spring semester, interestingly, we be begin with, um, Milton's Paradise Lost, right. As kind of a different, you know, very different story. Right. Uh, but so I've, I've really fallen, I think, kind of back in love with Dante in some ways over the last five years of teaching him again and have seen, uh, it's not only that he's right, a great poet, or that he has a lot of theology, or that he's kind of broadly atomist or all these different things, but that, uh, somehow Right. He helps us, at least for me, what I try to get students see is that he helps us to see our own lives better.
Speaker 0 00:03:15 Definitely.
Speaker 2 00:03:16 Um, and I even love the way, you know, he begins, it's like, you know, kind of, uh, you know, lost and middle-aged in a wood. Right. You know, and, and all of us in a way have to wake up and discover that we too, were lost in a wood. Right. Right. Uh, and whenever we do that is really the time when our journey really, the spiritual journey can begin.
Speaker 0 00:03:37 Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, Oliver Fairo really is about that discovery of being, discovering oneself to be lost. First we have to discover, open our eyes, wake up to wake up to our own state, and yeah. I mean, we can open up and look at those lines if you want, or Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:03:55 Well definitely will in a little bit. Okay. I just wanted to say too, I think it's, so for people that are aware of Dante at all, I think one of the things that sometimes if they're familiar with Dante, they think of like, oh, Dante has all these, uh, teaches that hell has all these horrible tortures. And I think in a way, just the simple way you began with it begins to show that's not, that's not quite what Dante's trying to talk about. Dante's trying to help us understand our own situation. Right. Is that we have to recognize we've been lost in a wood. We've been in a way, kind of in a hellish state Right.
Speaker 0 00:04:31 And Right. That engagement with the reader, um, is fundamental. It, it happens from the beginning. Um, we can talk about that. But as far as the punishments go, yeah. And that's the, that's the Dante that is come down in popular kind of image and understanding abandon and all hope all ye who enter here and all of these, to all of these tortures. Yes. And isn't Dante cruel in his, you know, he's, he's a, he, he's a cruel, he's a sadistic and cruel. And when we read it and try to understand his, his contra pasta, his allegory, what we see is that the, the souls there are living the lives that they have lived on earth, but now they are imaging that life mm-hmm. <affirmative> in their Yeah. Spectral kind of bodies. Yeah. Um, so it's not so much that, you know, a a soul that was involved in schism is, is cut in half.
Speaker 0 00:05:23 And he's been, you know, he's been, uh, tortured in this way. It's, it's an image of the soul, what the soul, how the soul appears now. Yeah. That it is in hell and the it's existence. And, and in they, we live in death in the, in, in the inferno, God willing. We don't live there, but in inferno, the souls are living out their, the, the image of their lives. Yeah. And they have, and we do have, you know, Dante's very, uh, in his theology, um, very, uh, innovative and, and obviously very insightful. And he, I don't know when this theology comes about this idea that we choose our lives in the afterworld, but he is definitely demonstrating that we choose where we are in the afterworld. And those, those souls have made their choice to be there. Yeah. And Dante, the pilgrim confront, he's just as frightened and alarmed, a and distraught by what he sees there.
Speaker 0 00:06:19 And it's, and Don and the poet tells us it's the guer, it's the war of the pity. He has pity and, but pity is going to have to die when he gets to, by the time he gets to the bottom of hell. So it's not that Dante is cruel, that he's sadistic. He wants to show up, he wants to torture these people, put all of his enemies in hell mm-hmm. <affirmative> bony and everyone, he didn't like, he's gonna populate hell with his enemies. It's not so much that he, he, he, I think in some compassion, is showing us what the soul, the, the, the soul manifesting. Yeah. It's being what the person has become their, their their aist. Right. Who they have become through habit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:06:57 And, and I think, and partly that also then allows us, he's kind of also drawing upon what really would've simply just been kind of commonplace. Some of them are just commonplace images of hell that would've been in the medieval imagination. But what he does, so he is not trying in a certain sense to show that he's trying to show in a way what's happening in the person while they're alive. Absolutely. Because if we could actually begin to see what, you know, say you put it the sin of cism, if that's actually really rendering a part that which ought to be connected,
Speaker 0 00:07:30 Right.
Speaker 2 00:07:31 Then I have to, it's only when I see it imaged in hell in the way he does that. Then I begin to see what does it mean to give into betrayal? What does it mean? So he kind of uses hell so that we can see our lives Absolutely. In this world better. Absolutely. So that we can really see the nature that, that sin is destructive of the human person. Right. And it's something in a way that we, as you put it Right, we freely choose to enter into. Right.
Speaker 2 00:08:02 Right. And, and I think, you know, that whole idea too, that, so this, this sense that later gets, you know, the catechism will talk about the idea that, uh, we, you know, we choose hell for ourselves. Right. That you kind of already see that in Dante. Right. The, in some ways it's the dignity of choice that the choices we make are real. Right. It's not a toy world. And if we make choices that begin to destroy ourselves mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> well destroyed, we will be Right. Beginning in this world and then in the next. So I think, anyway, that's such a powerful, you know, idea.
Speaker 0 00:08:33 Yeah. And the souls are, you know, before they cross over into hell proper crossing the, the, the river of the Aron, the poet tells us that they are impelled to do so. They are desiring to do so. They're eager for the journey, he says, and it seems paradoxical. How could they be eager to enter into hell? But it's, it's what they've chosen. It's who they are. Yeah. And then it, it's too late. And that's, that's the hope. Abandon all hope because you have made that choice. And, and there is no hope. There is no hope. Yeah. Um, at that, at that point. Yeah. And they are, they are drawn towards it.
Speaker 2 00:09:08 And, and in some ways, the abandoning of hope is not because God is not merciful. The banning of hope is cuz I'm making the choice to reject God's mercy. Right. Right. I I love the image of, uh, Satan at the bottom of the inferno. Right. Where Satan is in a frozen tundra. Right. Or a frozen wasteland knowing things, what, what, why is the image of Satan being frozen somehow important? Cuz people often think of hell as hot. Right. But to a certain extent, Dante says that the heart of hell is, is ice.
Speaker 0 00:09:37 Right. Right. And I think, um, you know, it's funny, students will, will kind of fundamentally understand that as like the heart is frozen, you know, and they'll, this isn't necessarily Dante. And, but I think that's, there's a truth there that there's a frozenness to it all compassion, all mercy, all concern for others has been frozen within itself. Yeah. Because it's not that it's not there meant to be there. God created us out, out of love with love. It's who we are. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Dante says, we are every choice we make, love is the seed of every good and evil act. Even the evil act started with love because we are made for love. And so you can't make yourself into something else. You can just immobilize or freeze what we are. Yeah. And so, so that idea that Satan is, is, is immobile. So you can look at it in terms of, of, of what's happened to the human person.
Speaker 0 00:10:28 And so you can also look at it in terms of his, um, his agency, his ability to harm the pilgrim or harm us. And that, of course, you probably have taught this when you, you know, that when the pilgrim reaches the, the pit of hell, we expect, and he's, he is truly frightened as he's entering. But what he discovers is that there is no need for the person who is not, not imbued in sin. Not that Dante has the pilgrim has been completely, has been redeemed entirely or is ready, ready for heaven at this point. But he has no need that to be afraid. And we learn that ultimately the sin is futile. I mean, the, the, the evil rather of Satan is a, is a futile, he cannot impose himself on people who have not chosen. So he is immobile. And, and in fact, the pilgrim will then instrumentalize him in a way and be able to climb, use the body.
Speaker 0 00:11:23 Um, so here we have, you know, the, the pit of hell, Satan himself absolutely powerless to harm the pilgrim and the pilgrim even uses him, climbs down Yeah. His body to get to the center of the earth and pass up to the mountain of purgatory mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he doesn't seem to even be aware of it, the Satan himself. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, so in this sense, you know, the, the poet is showing us that not only does sin not harm, you know, the person who is right with God, it's for Dante. It, it's, it's an, the understanding of it is an instrument to help us get closer to God.
Speaker 2 00:11:57 Yeah. It's almost like sins when if, if, if we live in them, they begin to immobilize us to freeze our hearts. Right. But when we begin to repent of them with God's grace, they become really a ladder. Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:12:12 That which we can climb, uh, to God. Right. And so, yeah, I think it's fascinating how then you move from the, in Fairo into Purgatorial. Right. And, and before, I, I do wanna in a couple minutes talk about a couple specific instances from each of these, but I wanna make sure that I, I think there's a way that Thetis in Fairo is what has kind of, if it, if is captured the modern imagination, right. But in some ways it's really the Purgatorial and the Paradiso mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. Uh, that, that are really kind of where the, where where the real action begins to happen, <laugh>. Where the deeper repentance, we get closer to God, um, the souls become more joyous. This music gets more, um, melodious. Right. Right. Uh, and you know, it's kind of like often, you know, most readers, if they've ever read Dante, they've never gotten out of, you know, hell Right. So to speak. And so I think sometimes these ways that you're describing, partly what Dante wants to do is give us perspective.
Speaker 0 00:13:10 Absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:13:11 And, um, right. And the great perspective is that, is that the, the, the pilgrim things keep getting better, right. Because it's the pilgrim's journey in which in a way, he's inviting us as the reader to follow.
Speaker 0 00:13:24 Right, right. Uh, of course. I mean, but we have to admit that Paradiso is off-putting, and it's difficult. And honestly, in my course, we, we, I touch some of the greatest moments because there's, first of all, we need an entire year to get through the whole divine comedy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you and I can't skip some of these incredible exchanges in, in, in, in Fairo mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and even in purgatory to, to get to Paradiso, which is, which is a bit off-putting and, and difficult to read mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and Don, but Dante knows it. He admit he's very pressy in that way. He knew that all of these courses, uh, somehow he might have known that all <laugh>. He didn't know that we were gonna teach Dante. But he perhaps had an idea in that he builds this complex world that, that has taken us ages to kind of unpack and understand.
Speaker 0 00:14:09 But he, um, he tells us in the beginning of, of Paradiso, you know, you, those of you following behind me, you probably remember this. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you're Petro Barca, you're following behind me in this little boat, uh, you know, across these waters. And maybe you'd better turn back now. So we have already followed him through in Fairo, purgatorial, <laugh>, and he's saying, I know some of you're gonna stop right here. And I think in a sense, it's okay to stop there. I don't really wanna stop there. Yeah. But, um, that is a little more for the specialists, the theologians, and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, you know, so in my class we kind of do the big sort of greatest hits, but you're right. What you miss is, you know, the, the drama, if, if in Fairo is, is the drama of discovery of, uh, sort of the journey and of discovery of, of sin and, um, the Guerra delk, the, the, the war of the pity.
Speaker 0 00:15:07 You know, and it's a gradual sort of awakening, uh, you know, in hell awakening to the sin. When we get up to Paradiso, it's, it's a gradual kind of cleansing, uh, the eyes have been cleansed, and now it's, it's, it's preparing for the vision of God. Mm-hmm. So you have this, uh, Dante, the pilgrim is slowly trying to accommodate and strengthen his vision to see the light of God. And so we see it as a series of accommodations and a series of slow, slow, uh, let's say strengthening of the vision. And he does it through Beatrice mm-hmm. <affirmative> as his, his mediator, and then through various guides and teachers, and you get the three kind of, you know, uh, sort a very, uh, sort of doc scholastic almost, it was almost like university kind of quizzes, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, towards the end. And then this, and then the final preparation for which Mary must be his, his mediator in Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:16:02 In bringing together the human and divine. How, how is that possible? And he uses this kind of language of paradox at the end, which we could talk about. But yeah. So I think, and Purgatorio is, is wonderful to read during Lent. So often we do that, uh, we'll kind of look at it as, uh, read, read the examples going up the mountain, and you ask yourself following along with him, just as you do, do in, in Fairo, you know, which, which of these scenes, which of these, uh, ledges of the mountain mm-hmm. <affirmative> kind of engage and move me the most as an individual, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And for some, it's, it's pride, that first one, which is so fundamental, that first ledge of pride, and they're holding the boulders and that it's like pride. We are so, so they're on the first ledge of the, the, the mountain of, of purgatory pur.
Speaker 0 00:16:48 Yeah. Which is like a big wedding cake. You can kind of think of it as mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? So you've got the seven deadly sins, but they're really not sins at this point. They're dispositions. Right. That, that lead to sin. So the first, uh, is, is, is pride. And you have these figures who are rounding the circle with the boulders on their backs, and they're hunched over, and they're looking at the ground, and they will see the examples of virtue, uh, and, and vice, um, in, uh, ba relief sculptures on the ground almost like a, like a sulker mm-hmm. <affirmative> in there mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And they'll be learning from that. And they're, they're, they're suffering in a sense, but they are, they are content and joyful. They, they've been saved, and they know that. Um, so, but this idea of pride as fundamental bottom of the mountain is gonna lead to all of those other dispositions, but it's something that weighs us down. And if we think of it that way, like my pride is in my life, I'm walking through life and pride is, is, is is like a bolder, I'm carrying on my back. So I think that all the way up the mountain, we can, we sort of, we are encouraged by the poet to reflect on the nature of that disposition and how much we might participate in that ourselves.
Speaker 2 00:18:02 Yeah. No, it's so beautifully put. And I think one of the things too is that if you are, say, reading this as a person who is attempting to live a Christian life, right, right. In a, uh, in, you know, in, in a state of grace that in some ways one has turned from the mortals, the life of mortal sin, God willing mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the inferno, and is really living in the purgatory. We're living in the life of venial sins, the life of trying to uproot these. And even that image, I love of the idea that it's only in a way when the prideful pilgrims learn that they actually can't carry the weight to the boulder on their own. Right. Right. It's on, like, in a certain sense, we, we have to surrender the illusion that we can master Right. The universe. That's when we can begin to ascend.
Speaker 2 00:18:53 Right. And, and, and begin to allow, in a way, grace to help us. The interesting thing is, every time they let go of a p they begin going faster and faster up Mount purgatory. Right. Because in a way, it's actually, we're, we're kind of, our natural inclination would be to run to God, to fly to God. Right. And it's the sins and defects that hold us back, what holds us back from God. It's like our own pride. Right. Right. It's just that I think I can get there on my own, and once I give up that illusion, then I realize God will draw me there through my deeper love. So Right. Right. I I I love those Yeah. The images, the way you described that.
Speaker 0 00:19:26 Yeah, yeah. Pride and looking back as well, we can, uh, the, the whole of anti purgatory is for the realm of the unrepentant mm-hmm. <affirmative> or the slow repentant, or those who maybe died suddenly and quickly and, and did not have time to repent. But there is a slowness there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that is a, and and especially with a couple of exchanges and characters of this kind, you should be, you should be hastening as the Cato the infernal, uh, guardian says, you should be hastening to farci, these souls should be wanting to make themselves beautiful, and that's exactly what they're doing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, as you kind of sculpt the human person, become this, this person that you're meant to be. Um, but there, the, the bottom of the mountain is a, a place of kind of indolence and kind of slowness, and they have to kind of ignite that. And then as they, you're right, they wanna speed up, um, towards when we get to the top.
Speaker 2 00:20:19 And, and how interesting. I think a lot of, you know, this is a very, you know, how much we have that sense that we've wasted our time. Right. Uh, and that's what I love that, you know, reading the Pur tour, Dante's kind of saying, he's creating these characters that keep saying like, I've wasted so much time. Right. I'm wasting time. I've wasted time. And, and, and in a way you kind of feel like, well, that's what Dante discovered when he finally saw what his life was for when we finally discover that kind of divine vocation that's been revealed to, to us. Right. We have that sense that I, you know, I, I can't believe I wasted so much time. And, and you kind of have that resolution. Um, it's like, uh, anyway, there's a, a, a saint of the 20th century, San Jose Maria, but he would often say kind of like, time is glory.
Speaker 2 00:21:01 Yes. You know, it's not like, and this is what we have to, it's, it's every moment that we have Yeah. We have in a way to glorify God and to allow God somehow to glorify us Right. In a, in a, in a small way in this life. Uh, and you know, and, and, and I just love that image that they're, that they, that's what the, that's what the souls are trying to kind of like, get us to recognize while we're living here on this earth, is to Yes. Don't waste our time. Right. Let's do beautiful things for God today.
Speaker 0 00:21:32 Right. And that's what Dante, the poet is doing throughout the whole work. He's appealing to us to convert, to turn towards God, to find the via did he death to find that mm-hmm. <affirmative> that straight path and not wander off as he did. And the vocation as you is a, I think the vocation is a really big part of it that has, has not been, is less discovered, you know, or maybe in cer certain ways. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> talked about with the divine Connie, but, you know, he has to discover who he is. It's, it's a spiritual autobiography. So it's about Dante himself very much while it's also about us following behind him mm-hmm. Trying to accompany him. And of course, he starts, it's about exile. He's an exile. Mm-hmm. And, um, the deciding moment of his life is 1302 when he's exiled. And, um, he is on, he is visiting, um, Rome to try to get Pope Bonis II to broker some sort of peace between the factions of the city that are ruling the city.
Speaker 0 00:22:30 And of course, the medieval city state is, you know, well known for this factionalism and this strife. And he's trying, but he is a successful politician. He's at the height of his career. He's a prior, won a very few, it's a very prestigious role in the city. He's at the absolute height of his career, and that's when disaster strikes. And, um, Bonafos is not, according to Dante, dealing equitably between the two factions. He ends up being exiled and he loses everything. Loses everything. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and writing the divine comedy is kind of about finding his vocation again. Wow. How is he gonna rebuild his life? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And how is he, he's lost his, his position, his prestige, his home, um, and, you know, everything he's built up in the city and, and he, it's about finding his way, finding his life, yeah. Back. But, but, but that means finding God. But his vocation, of course, is is that of a poet, and he finds that the poetry is what will redeem him and help lead others as well. Yeah. So it's that it is about vocation, and he engages us to see how are the, the actions of our daily lives, our encounters, how are they leading us to God Yeah. Or not mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:23:44 <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, it, it's really is a journey of vision from the darkness and the confusion and chaos of the inferno to the begin, the deeper illumination that goes through the purgatorial. And then at the beginning of paradise, paradise. Right. He looks at the sun, uh, Beatrice looks at the sun, and he, along with Beatrice, then can look at the sun. Right. And that's only at the beginning of paradise. So paradise, you know, so by the end, yeah. They're, um, they're eventually put it with, with, with the help of the saints mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the teachings of the saints. Mm-hmm. And eventually through, uh, Beatrice, but also with Mary. Right. Eventually, actually beholds. Right. Really the triune God. Right. In who's where he says right at the end, it's like at, at the very moment there, he saw man's very image. Right. He saw in a way Jesus Christ right at the heart.
Speaker 2 00:24:32 And, and then he is very, at the very end, he just says, at this point, power failed, high fantasy, but like a wheel and perfect balance turning, I felt my will and desire impelled. Now the will and desire that impelled us into sin, and hell finally yields, and now it is completely at home. So I'm now moved by the love that moves the sun and other stars, this kind of beautiful line, the love that moves, the sun and the stars now has transformed me. And it's that, it's that final vision in a way that he wants to also, I think put before us that makes all those sacrifices in a way worth it when we begin to see really the glory that God wants to show us.
Speaker 0 00:25:16 Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, that whole final con is absolutely amazing. And, um, you know, and how does he get there to that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. He really wants to lead us with him. And that's why he uses apostrophe throughout the, you know, which he, he develops in a totally novel way, this direct address of the reader, direct address of char of characters of the blessed Virgin, Marion and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and of God at the end. Yeah. So that's something I've written about a little bit, is this apostrophe, and how do, how do you achieve the vision at the end so that the whole, I think you stated it well, that the whole of paradise is about this gradual illumination. And when you said that Beatrice, in the beginning, he looks at Beatrice beat, looks at the sun, he cannot look at the, at the sun.
Speaker 0 00:26:01 He still can't, he has already cleansed himself in the, in the river of Lety, and he cannot, he's still not ready. Okay. He needs to go through now an intellectual kind of understanding, I think as well. There will be bear, this becomes more didactic. Um, um, but he looks, Beatrice looks at the sun. He can't look at the sun. So he looks at her and he looks in her eyes and he sees the light shining. So she's the first mediator. Yeah. And he says in that scene, I was like, Klaus, you know, changed within, I had Klaus, the, the, the, uh, mythical figure who has to, wants to become a god, a sea God, and he has to eat of the herb of the sea, eats this sort of seaweed we might call it. And he ingests it, and he becomes a god, a god of the sea in a sense.
Speaker 0 00:26:49 And so Dante will use paradoxically, it seems to many, but it really is. And he'll use all this pagan mythology to kind of, to, to poetically, um, you know, uh, try to explain the unexplainable. And he's, so I think what that's about is that you, you take in the light of God and you, you have to reflect it. You have to internalize it, and it changes you. And I think the whole drama now of paradise is him taking in the light and being changed by it. And he needs a series of mediators mm-hmm. <affirmative> to do so some are teachers. Yeah. Some are love mediators, charity mediators like his beloved, uh, Beatrice Yeah. Who is kind of a, sort of a patron saint for him in a way. But then when we get to this final canto, um, that you bring up, the final mediator, of course, is the blessed Virgin Mary.
Speaker 0 00:27:39 And he turns, uh, St. Bernard, his, his saint, Saint Bernard, Bernard of clave, his final, um, you know, guide, um, has to implore Mary to help him to, um, to be worthy and to get the grace of God mm-hmm. <affirmative> to achieve his vision. He's still a, he, he's still a, a man. He's still in his body as he says. I'm not Paolo mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he's not anias. And how is he going to be worthy of this vision? He is not worthy of the vision. Yeah. It is a great grace. That's beautifully put. Yeah. So he, I mean, we can, I think you'd be interested in these lines. I'm sure you've read them and studied them, but in the opening of that final canto, um, how is it going to happen? How is it possible? Yes. St. Bernard turns the blessed Virgin Mary, and, and, and apostrophes her, sings her this prayer.
Speaker 0 00:28:25 He says, um, Virgin mother, daughter of your son, um, and he calls her Theia del. She's, and she's Alta at the same time. So, so a series of paradoxes. She is both humble and exalted. She is both mother and daughter. So it's the language of paradox right at the end, the language of, of antithesis, how is someone in, you know, he was still, um, you know, inhuman, imperfect going to, to have the vision and the experience of the divine. It's impossible. Yeah. Only through this paradox, this, this, this sort of bridging of the paradox that we get mm-hmm. <affirmative> with the blessed virgin Mary mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which of course is taking us to the incarnation. Yeah. That ultimate bridging of that paradox. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2 00:29:17 So, uh, so, so beautifully put, uh, let's take a quick break and, and when we get back, let's, we'll look at a couple other, uh, scenes, uh, along the way. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:29:25 That sounds terrific. Sure. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:29:34 You are listening to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. If you'd like to support our mission, we invite you to prayerfully consider joining our Annunciation Circle, a monthly giving program aimed at supporting our staff, faculty, and Catholic faith formation. You can visit
[email protected] to learn more. Thank you for your continued support. And now let's get back to the show.
Speaker 2 00:30:00 Welcome back to the Catholic Theology Show. Uh, today we are discussing, uh, Dante a great poet and especially his divine comedy. And I'm pleased to be joined, uh, with Ave Maria colleague, uh, who teaches literature and humanities, and a whole course on Dante, uh, Dr. Aina Bazi Kelly. Uh, so happy to have you here. And so, uh, been enjoying our conversation today.
Speaker 0 00:30:25 Yes, I have been as well, so thank you.
Speaker 2 00:30:27 Great. And, uh, I just wanted to share, there's a, you know, CS Lewis, uh, wrote a book called Preface to Paradise Loss, which is about Milton's Paradise loss. Very different story. But in there he makes a comment about Dante that I thought might just be helpful. He says, of course, in some ways, a comparing with Dante's divine comedy to Milton is, um, uh, is what he calls. Right. It's simp, you know, it's misleading. Cuz his no doubt, Dante is in most respects, simply a better poet than Milton. So I just love the fact, like, you know, Dante, yeah. Lewis loves Dante, um, but he is also doing a different kind of thing. He, this is Dante is telling the story of a spiritual pilgrimage, how one soul fared in its passage through the universe, and how all may fear and hope to fare. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, this is, uh, I think this fundamental idea, it's a story of a spiritual pil pilgrimage.
Speaker 2 00:31:26 Uh, right. And he says that, right. Uh, Dante's art and Dante's spirituality are drawn together to make the comedy a religious poem, a poetical expression of religious experience, and really inviting the reader into this pilgrimage, this experience. Right. Uh, and, and I think that, uh, reinforces so much of what you've been saying and, and what we've been discussing today. And, and I thought maybe a way, especially for, you know, I, I, I think for probably most of, of us, it's probably was a long time before we actually picked up Dante and, and, and read this work. So let's go, if, if you'd be willing, could you kind of, as a master docent or tour guide, uh, lead us through maybe a couple scenes of this great spiritual pilgrimage? Sure. Uh, and so maybe, you know, if you might want to, you know, pick, pick something kind of from the Inferno and then from Oratorio and maybe, and just kind of like how do we, like, let's, let's see what actually Dante the poet is doing through these images and the experience that he is wanting to communicate to us.
Speaker 0 00:32:36 Right. Okay. Um, I think that passage that you cited brings out really very succinctly some, uh, most important, um, ideas about the work, um, especially that the important for the first time you encounter it, and the, you know, teenth time, you, you encounter it, which we should encounter a again and again. But the very first lines indicate, you know, what Lewis was getting at mm-hmm. <affirmative> and every course on, so before getting into a particular passage. Sure. This is the opening a little bit, because it's wonderful. Every course on Dante begins with the I and the we, you probably begin when you teach. Right. So if we look at those very opening lines, so much is densely packed into that. So I'll just read it in the Italian because it's so famous and many know these lines. Um, so in English, right, when I had journeyed half of our, our life's way, I found myself within a shadowed forest for I had lost the path that does not stray. This is the Mandelbaum, um, uh, translation in Italian ed.
Speaker 0 00:33:48 So it's very difficult to recall that <unk> but he, he, he embeds into this beginning what Lewis is talking about, the I and the r It's, it's, it's his journey to be experienced by the pilgrim. It's very personal to him, but it's also the R Right. The, the O u r R. So <unk> Right. It's r journey, he's saying it's, and it's our journey together. So he brings us along immediately that it's, it's not just about him, it's very personal, but it's also universal. And that is embedded in the entire work and these opening lines. I mean, we, uh, so it's a journey. Um, absolutely. And one of the things that Dante is doing is, you know, it's, he's not, he is in the middle of life. So <unk>. So he's rewriting epic, of course, in, in media race, epic begins in the middle. And Dante interprets that more in a biblical sense, the middle of his life.
Speaker 0 00:34:49 35 years old, middle of biblical sense of the 70 years of life, uh, book of Daniel, I think, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then also that middle ness, right? He's in the middle, um, he's at the height of his career and he finds himself in the dark wood and he finds himself totally lost. And I think that's what we all can kind of relate to a little bit. And maybe even today more than in the middle Ages, right? We have this idea of the midlife crisis that we're in the middle of it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, suddenly we, and because remember Dante's at the height of his career, when he sets this, he sets it in 1300, not after the exile. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. He, he later on and explains the chronology of it. Uh, and, uh, and so he's at the height of his career and suddenly he wakes up, starts to wake up and says, where am I? I'm lost. And, and he's assailed by the beast by sin. And he's, he finds himself in a dark place. And I think that's something that we all can relate to today. Definitely. Finding our, and
Speaker 2 00:35:47 By the way, I think it's so beautiful you say that, cuz I think one of the things as teaching students, by the way, one of the things I notice is that you talk about a midlife crisis, I tend to think like people have midlife crisis sooner and sooner these days. And I think a lot of college students discover kind of a midlife crisis of sorts because they, they all of a sudden the, the, the rules of the game that they understood, which is to, you know, get through school, right. All of a sudden begin to become confused. And, and I think that's one of things, at least I find a lot of, you know, it's like all of a sudden now it's like, how do I, like, you know, how how do I transition to this new phase when the game that I used to play gets confusing?
Speaker 2 00:36:27 Right. And I think it's also why it's a time of great anxiety, right. Uh, for so many people, a kind of darkness, a kind of confusion. Right? Right. Uh, I love the way you put that in terms of exile. Cuz in some ways you can think about, like, he's clearly refers to Bethes consolation of philosophy. Right. And multiple times he talks about fortune. Right. Uh, but the beautiful thing is that Bethes is wonderful in times of trying to show the whole consolation of philosophy, I think under the illumination of Christian faith. Um, because ultimately we Right. But, but, but Dante just goes at, I'm gonna give you the consolation of everything. <laugh>, philosophy, theology, I'm gonna be ex, you know, we're gonna do all the everything. I'm gonna get you, whatever I can give you. He does. I'm gonna take some pa I'm gonna take, what are the truths that are glimpsed through pagan thought? What are the truths that we conceive via philosophy? And what are the truths that we discover in Right. Jesus Christ, the scripture and the sacra and all of that. I'm gonna give it all of you to try to give you a sense of consolation. Right. You know, that, that Yes. You like, I am lost.
Speaker 0 00:37:32 Right. Right.
Speaker 2 00:37:32 When we discover we are lost, ironically, that's when we can begin to be found.
Speaker 0 00:37:37 Right. And you know, the constellations, there is a hierarchy to them as well. Yeah. And some they do have to be gotten over. And I, I'm sorry to say to someone, I know you teach theology, not philosophy, but people who teach the philosophy wanna find all this philosophy in here. And we do. And certainly we, you, you love the classics and we, you know, you teach the cla you find that here. Yes. But those are things that do, that will only take us so far. Yeah. Only take us so far. And then Dante shows us we have to move beyond them. Yeah. But they have value mm-hmm. <affirmative> for what they are. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So there's always that kind of, yes, it works, but you have to get beyond it. Yes. Um, yeah. But in this opening lines, yeah, please. You know, the, the other thing is the, the reawakening to sin, because I and reawaken.
Speaker 0 00:38:20 So, so what he does is from a perspective of a literature professor, you know, he takes medieval dream vision where the, the dreamer dream of the rude pierce plum and dreamer falls asleep, and while he's asleep, he has this vision, he's transported and has a vision and has a guide. Yeah. So the medieval reader would kind of, okay, we're going to hell, we're going somewhere. This is a vision. Right. But what Dante does is he reverses it. He says, y he says, Mero, I refound myself. So it's like, and, and the translation is I found myself, but that refound mm-hmm. <affirmative> gives you a sense of reawakening. And then we can, so in my class, sometimes we'll trace the, the sauna, no, the sleepiness and the passing out and the sleepiness in these first early contos of as Dante's kind of reawakening. And so I'll have my students read from Ephesians, uh, you know, awake, oh, sleeper and, you know, see the light of Christ.
Speaker 0 00:39:19 And I just say, I will say, look at that line. And they all, they look at the, they say, yes, that's exactly, this is the way that Christian or Catholic readers, we are blessed here to have these readers who are biblically, uh, astute and have some, they, they will recognize things mm-hmm. <affirmative> that other readers might not. We are a little closer to the work as believers, I think mm-hmm. <affirmative> and people who have, so, um, that's beautifully put. It's, that's what I noticed in the class as well. But then see he, he's full of sonal, he's full of sleep and he abandoned the true path. Right? Mm. At the point. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, hold on. I was, he says at line 12, I was so full of sleep just at that point where I abandoned the true path. So he's reversed the entire dream vision convention where you fall asleep, have the vision for it's a biblical sleep, he has fallen asleep in sin, and now he's waking up. And this is a slow kind of awakening to reality of the way Yeah. Maybe he's lived his life and the way people he knows and has interacted with, has have lived their lives. So that will kind of give a good preface if we look at some Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, scenes in particular. That's
Speaker 2 00:40:25 Great. No, thank you so much for doing that. Let's, uh, jump to the next one. What would you suggest?
Speaker 0 00:40:29 So, well, um, you know, the canto that everyone knows, if you know anything about the divine comedy beyond the gate banal hope is, is Canto five mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, Francesca Dini. So, and, and I think this shows the reawakening of the slow, reawakening of the pilgrim. So you see, he kind of models it for us, I think, how do you reawaken, how do you recognize what's really happening in the world around you? So in Canto five, we're in the circle of the lustful. So the division of hell in continents violence and fraud, these three sort of, uh, general regions in the taxonomy. And here we have, um, incontinence. So you're going to have those who are gluttonous, and now we have the lustful. Right. And, uh, he meets Francesca the most famous Dante character mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So this is really, but it's the top of hell.
Speaker 0 00:41:23 So it's in a sense, it's the least grave of the sins, but it's there. And so he, he enters and it's a place of darkness, and it's a place of sound. And he hears the cries and he hears this lament that sounds like the chant, the chanting of leis. Um, he hears the, the gr the, the, the bird, like a bird's chant. And they're like birds being buffeted and thrown around within a storm, a know tempest. And, and this is of course envisioning in sort of, uh, representing lust that pulls and pushes in different directions, and it's not within the control of reason, that sort of thing. So he has, so Francesca is being bounced around with her lover Paolo, and it's dark. And he announces that this is going to be about music and poetry, because we hear the sounds of the cries. And he's, he's captivated.
Speaker 0 00:42:18 He wants to know more. And the pilgrim asks Virgil, Virgil says, call out to them, they'll come to you. And he calls out with his <unk> with this affectionate loving call, and they respond mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And they come down, two come down, Francesca and Paolo come and speak to him. And it's that zo Guido that, that loving sound. So we were already introduced that we have these themes of love and song and poetry, and this is going to be kind of the theme of this, right? So Dante, you know, he talks, it's about lust, but it's always about other things, um, as well. And so she, she comes and she gives three speeches, and the first she introduces herself, this is at line 88 mm-hmm. <affirmative> where she begins, she introduces herself and she's heard the love and cry. And she comes and she says, oh, living being gracious and benign, who through the darkened air have come to visit our souls that abstained the world.
Speaker 0 00:43:15 If he who rules the universe, were a friend to us, we should pray to him to give you peace. Whatever pleases you to hear and speak will please us. And she goes on. So she speaks in this sort of courtly language mm-hmm. <affirmative> this beautiful, lovely, welcoming, um, courteous language, language of poetry and courtesy. And of course, it, you know, if we think about it, it's, it's a little ridiculous. We should, I would pray to God for you if I weren't in hell. Right. <laugh>. Yes. If I weren't in hell. It sounds so beautiful. Beautiful. Yes. But we know it's a futile empty words, really. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're, they're mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so he, he wants to learn more, and she gives her famous triple <unk> love, and she describes love, love, love, love. These the three tourist sits that begin with love. So the first one, I'll just talk about the first one. I guess these,
Speaker 2 00:44:02 These, by the way, are so beautiful, and it's so much the, this is kind of like the, you know, the beginning in the middle ages and probably throughout time and certainly in our day where we think of kind of like love as this kind of passion that excuses everything. Right?
Speaker 0 00:44:18 Right.
Speaker 2 00:44:18 And, um, we, we don't in a way see Right. That love is right, love is love is really of the will. Yes. Not of the passions, but but this kind of glorification of romantic love. Exactly. I just think right here, and, and one thing I always like to remind people too is that if you're in the ocean, it really doesn't matter how far under the surface you are
Speaker 0 00:44:40 <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:44:40 You know what I mean? Right. You might be at the highest point under the ocean. Right. But you're drowning. Right. Right. And so that's the point, is these, you know, like we gotta remember is that all of these are ways in which we somehow drown not in the ocean, but we drown in ourselves. Right. Like that's, in a way, I think what Dante wants to, and so I,
Speaker 0 00:44:56 And the most, and the most dangerous waters are the waters that are appealing to us. Yes. That mm-hmm. <affirmative> have a veneer of beauty and goodness. And of course, as I said before, love is the, the, the, the seed of all good and evil. So love brings us home, it brings us there, but it can also lead us astray. Yeah. The myth of romantic
Speaker 2 00:45:14 God. So please, please read more. But I just love that the way you, you went right to that point.
Speaker 0 00:45:19 Right? So that first line, love, well love that can quickly seize the gentle heart, took hold of him because of the fair body taken from me. How that was done still wounds me. And she goes on. So it's, if we read it closely, students are quite able to see that this is about bodies, and it's about mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, beauty, uh, surface beauty and, and love that seizes, that it's a, it's love is an exterior force according to Francesca. It's gonna seize you, it's gonna take you, and you really don't have much choice in the whole matter. Right? Yeah. This is her kind of poetic credo. But the important thing I wanted to point out here is that yeah, she's using Dante's own words here. If you look at your footnote, it will go to Guido Gu, the beau, uh, foam poem he wrote that Dante responds to in his <unk> he says, love and the, and the noble heart are one.
Speaker 0 00:46:12 He wants to have this discussion, poetic discussion about, really about the genesis of love. Where does it start? This, this, this prompting towards love of a, of another, his beloved of Beatrice. How does it all begin? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what she's doing here is citing his own love poetry. Yeah. She's engaging in his own language. And what we see, when we talked about, you talked about the, you have to ex the experience like Louis says, you experience, you know, it's an experience this, and this is Dante experiencing mm-hmm. <affirmative> his life where things may have gone wrong and, and what, what's maybe what his work itself could possibly lead to. And confronting the reality of his life, because she go, he, he asks her then, you know, Francesca, your, your afflictions move me to tears of sorrow, of pity the time. Tell me in the time of gentle size, you know, tell me about your love.
Speaker 0 00:47:08 You know, and it's, he's speaking the language of love to her, his old love poetry mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he's engaging her on the level of his early youthful love poetry. And she ki she responds in kind, you know, and then she says, um, well, let me tell you, you wanna know the root of it, let me tell you. And then she goes into the famous part in the end. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's about the eyes and the mouth we were reading. She blames the book famously <laugh>. And if you know anything about the divine comedy, you might know that Francesca blames the book. Yeah. She's blaming medieval romance. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I read about G Guinevere and we read about this great love. And the moment when their lips kissed, that's when we, we broke down and couldn't control ourselves. And this is of course is an adulterous, uh, relationship Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:47:50 With her brother-in-law, and they, so she blames the book. Okay. That's one level of reading it. But the other level is this is how Dante embeds in these discord. You have to read them so carefully because on a certain level, he seems to be showing us a heroin of love. And that, and many people in the past have read it that way, but when we dig, we can find many different levels to read it at. But one of the levels is his personal level, his own love poetry. Um, she's engaging him on that and have written about this. And, um, this, she follows kind of his lead, his format in the vi nova. Then when he says Beatrice's smile, the beloved smile, the beloveds eyes leave him mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So she's invoking his poetry, the eyes and the mouth, but they're not leading to a philosophical spiritual love. And in Dante's comb, they, they lead to eventually to, uh, sort of an internal, um, sort of discernment. It's, it's Conversional really. He sees Beatrice and he real, she's being a beauty and virtue and he realizes his own faults. So,
Speaker 2 00:48:53 But she's, and the sense of being a beauty and a virtue, right? Right. It's ultimately, uh, the inner form Right. Is what's most beautiful. Right. Uh, and in a way we that to truly love, I see the body. Right. Which may be fair. Right. And it's becomes love properly when I love the person. Right. And, um, but it's right, it's right.
Speaker 0 00:49:17 And of course, it's
Speaker 2 00:49:18 Love easy in a way to stay right at the body.
Speaker 0 00:49:21 Right. And it's love poetry. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So sometimes, and he's aware of that and they'll fall into, back into that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But here she makes it very clear, you know, so do you see it in the beginning? Yeah. He's very taken in by her mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he's speaking the language of love poetry with her. At the end she says, okay, you wanna talk about love? Let's talk. It was the smile, it was the mouth. And this led us to that pass mm-hmm. <affirmative> that agonizing pass. And, and then she says at 1 38 that day, well, gall indeed the book, and he who wrote it, the author and the book are the middleman. They are responsible for this. And that day we read no more. They dropped the book and they start their affair. Yeah. And so now, and the very end, right. What happens, this is a famous line I love to read to my students.
Speaker 0 00:50:04 1 42, what happens to Dante at the end fall, those hard gural hard sounds, not the sound of love poetry, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I fell down as a dead body falls. Yeah. Right. So at the end, he, it has been a, a, a realization of reawakening that his steel novick, his early love poetry from the, the book called The Vik and the New Life may have been good and beautiful in many ways, but might it have been misleading and might it have been not leading to the Villa Dita, not to the straight path of life. It's not that he condemns all love poetry, that it's terrible, but he's going to have a hard look at his own love poetry here and say, maybe I could have been doing something better with this. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it, and so it leads to that kind of, you know, and you say it, it involves the, the no, the, the Nostra Vita, all of us are involved.
Speaker 0 00:51:01 So I think he does invite us to kind of contemplate how are the good things I'm doing that are good, might not be as good as I think, and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and to be careful and scrutinize am I, could I be possibly leading anyone astray? And especially, of course, he's speaking to artists, poets, content makers, we would call them, you know, and, and something I put out there, I, I think he's saying, you have to be careful. I don't think he's a band the book kind of a guy. It has to all mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, don't burn my books, you know, <laugh>. But, uh, but yeah, that's
Speaker 2 00:51:33 So beautifully put. And, uh, I love one the idea that, you know, in a certain sense she's re uh, you know, the character's reliving in a way what say Adam and Eve do, they don't take responsibility for their sin. Right. And they blame it on something else. And as long as we're blaming our sin on someone else, we're in the sin. We can't get out of the sin cuz only we can get out of the sin is actually by, of course, by repenting. And so, and, and in a way what he shows is that more than so to speak mere love poetry. And, and, and you know, this, that, that there's something in a way that has to die. Right. There's, and, and so it's interesting when he falls down dead at the end, I think it's like, it's the beginning of something like true love actually is sacrificed love is not merely the senti, sensual, or even sentimental engagement with the other's body mere, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 00:52:28 Like, there's all sorts of ways in which we do harm to ourselves and to many other people right. In this mode. And so in a certain sense, something has to die, right? Uh, for true love in a way to be born. I just, I love that scene. You know, I think that just, uh, since I think we're about running out of time for today, but I think, you know, what a beautiful introduction and I'd really, uh, you know, maybe we'll get a chance to have you, uh, back on this show when we can, uh, dive a little bit more into, uh, Dante's, right?
Speaker 0 00:52:58 Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to
Speaker 2 00:52:59 Wine comedy. I just wanted to kinda ask you three questions. Sure. Uh, when we end. Uh, so just first, what's a book you've been reading
Speaker 0 00:53:07 Right now? Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm teaching a course in which I, I'm reading things that I had not read at least, or maybe not since I was, I'm reading Frankenstein for my, my Oh, okay. But, so this is my kind of, so Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and, um, yeah. And those themes of sort of creation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, what we create and put out in the world. This is, uh, this is another, uh, theme in that work, but more in the post-enlightenment kind of sense of, you know, and Dante in sense really of can we, following our own curiosity reason, desire, um, create something that may be harmful. And, and, and I think Mary Shelly is really invoking, um, you know, Dante, she, I think she has Dante in mine possibly. So that was something I'm reading for. That's great. It's hard in the summer. You can ask me what I'm reading for pleasure. This is, but I I'm enjoying it immensely.
Speaker 2 00:53:57 Yeah. No, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I started to feel like I have, I have one of some of the best jobs because, um, when, you know, uh, for my work, I have to read great books, right? I have to read wonderful books that either I've read and I get to read again, or I should have read or should have understood better, and I get to read again and, and each, so it's, it's such a gift. What's a, what's a, you know, out of just, you know, outta many, many practices maybe that you do? What's one practice that you try to do on a daily basis that helps you, you know, find meaning and purpose and kind of move on this journey of the straight path?
Speaker 0 00:54:28 Uh, sure. Um, well, I mean, prayer of course, and reading the Bible, and it was funny, just this when, and, and to, to be really blessed, to be able to teach Dante's divine comedy, you know, is, is has enriched my life, you know, in many ways. But also as I read the Bible, I always, it always brings me back to Dante, and I have to thank Dante for embedding so much scripture. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in. And as a matter of fact, this morning I just opened up my Bible and it was interesting. I opened to Ceroc, let me see if I, I thought I made a note of it here. Um, so this, um, Ceroc chapter 17 mm-hmm. <affirmative> an appeal for a return to God. And he starts, but to the penitent, he provides a way back, encourages those who are losing hope, turn back to the Lord, give up your sins.
Speaker 0 00:55:17 Um, and then the dead can no more give praise than those who have never lived. Those who are alive well will glorify the Lord. And I think that Dante is saying that to us live, glorify the Lord. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and he's giving us this mo he's not, that he's cruel to these, these souls in hell. He's, he's, he's writing it for us to appeal to us, to prayer. So I think that any work that, that enriches your prayer life and your reading of scripture is, you know, bringing you on the via Dita without a doubt. So that's what I'm trying to That's
Speaker 2 00:55:49 Beautiful. And just a last question. Uh, this is a theology podcast, so we do try to think about how ideas about God matter. So is there, is there something, maybe false idea or false belief you held about God at some point in your life that you kind of, that you remember discovering a deeper truth and, and how that was helpful?
Speaker 0 00:56:08 Well, you know, false about God. I mean, I, I could try to bring it back to Dante, but also just that, I mean, I think divine mercy that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is that we are, that we, I think that we all can discover a moment. I think I'm a great person. I think I'm doing wonderfully. I don't think I am that person. And unfortunately, I think most of us will have a moment when we trip up and say, wow, I have been a person who needs God's mercy. Yeah. And mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the wonderful part of that is, especially through Divine mercy, sunny divine, is that that's when you grow the closest to God. You know, that's when mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I think that's what Dante wants to show us as well, you know. So I think that what, what all of us might think that's wrong about God is that he's not always reaching out to us always, you know, beckoning. And that's what Dante do. God speaks to us. He's just waiting for us to reply to him. So I think at times of fear, we might think, well, you know, I, I'm not worthy of replying mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but he's still, he's still speaking to us. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:57:12 Oh, how beautifully put. Well, thank you very much Dr. Kelly. Thank
Speaker 0 00:57:16 You, uh, for,
Speaker 2 00:57:17 Uh, really helping us just kind of dive into Dante today and, and what a gift. So thank you so much for your time and thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 0 00:57:24 My pleasure. Anytime.
Speaker 3 00:57:27 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
