Speaker 0 00:00:00 As Aquinas says that the mind should not stop at Enunciates. That is words. It must arrive at the res, the things themselves. And too much of theology seems to be caught up with memorizing of conceptual patterns rather than a real seeing of the actual corporeal beings.
Speaker 2 00:00:29 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Dr. Michael dk, and today I am joined by a, a dear friend and mentor and colleague, professor Emeritus at Ave Marie University, Dr. William Rearden and Dr. Rearden, uh, just welcome to the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:49 Thank you very much, Michael. Pleasure to be here with you.
Speaker 2 00:00:51 Yes. And, uh, Dr. Rearden is, uh, was really probably one of the earliest founding members of what became Ave Maria University. Yes. Um, before there was Ave Maria College in Michigan, uh, there was Ave Maria Institute. Yes. And I believe you began teaching with, uh, institute Avi Maria Institute Yes. In 1998. Yes. Right. Two years before it became a college in, uh, 2000 and, uh, several years before Ave Maria University, uh, began in Florida in, uh, 2003. Right. And so, just so pleased to have you on the show. I know, um, many of our listeners, uh, find the history of Ave Maria, uh, just of, of interest, either, you know, some of them have participated in it or not, and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I just wanted to get a chance to speak with you a little bit about some of those early days of the founding of the university, some of your involvement with it.
Speaker 2 00:01:53 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and one of the things I really want to talk a little bit about is how, kind of how you feel like, you know, God prepared you intellectually mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, theologically, uh, to join Ave Maria and to, you know, help it become, uh, you know, something that was kind of unique, something that would make a genuine contribution mm-hmm. <affirmative> to not only the recovery of theological education mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but really to the recovery of education. Yes. Uh, that, um, right. You know, there, there was, uh, such a sense that, uh, many people find somehow education not as, um, I don't know how to put it, not as consoling, not as educating almost as it as it ought to be. You know, we saw this sometimes with, uh, maybe Catholic universities, uh, that were not fully embracing their Catholic identity mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, other universities that have kind of given up the notion that there is ultimately one truth, right? Yes. That, that kind of centers the university. So maybe if you could just tell us a little bit about what was the institute like when you showed up in 1998?
Speaker 0 00:03:13 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I was the fourth member of the full-time faculty hired. Um, and, uh, it was a very small group of students, as you mentioned earlier. They, um, were very ardent Catholics raised in good families. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> most of them. And, um, we moved, made a very important move early on. We hired a man named Dr. Matt Levering. Mm. And, uh, he was a key figure in, I think, the way that the university later developed and the theology graduate program, uh, along with the whole, you know, undergraduate as well. And then the way in which the liberal arts were, uh, being integrated in such a way that, um, each science, let's say what we basically had is the core was, um, a classic language, usually Latin. We have some Greek, uh, physical sciences, literature, history, philosophy, as all those sciences that are forms of knowledge that are available to the natural human reason, and then the divine science of theology. Um, the professors were exceedingly, um, emphasizing the integration of these, uh, fields of study, uh, each with their own range as, uh, pop, uh, John Paulis second in Cordia Alaia delineates. And, uh, and also, uh, Newman in his idea the university, that the, um, that these different ways of seeing God's creation from these different perspectives is so integrating. And, uh, so each discipline then not only has its own range, but also is seeing together, uh, with the others. And there's not that isolation of specialization.
Speaker 2 00:04:57 So it's interesting at most schools, right. The school and the curriculum has been around for Right. Forever mm-hmm. <affirmative> or for, I mean, not, not forever, but for, for a long time before faculty or students show up. Yes. So you were at that time, right, really just a group of faculty members? Yes. Four mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think when, uh, I showed up in 2000 and yes. One, maybe 13 or yes, a dozen mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so what would it, what was it like in a way to have a group of faculty sitting around a table developing a curriculum mm-hmm. <affirmative> in a way, developing what you judged was like that was worthy of students. Yes. And, uh, necessary.
Speaker 0 00:05:37 It was, it was exciting. And, uh, and, uh, you know, with, uh, Matt, uh, Dr. Levering there, uh, we soon brought you in, you have studied together with, uh, Matthew, uh, uh, under Father Lamb. Um, the excitement, uh, with not only the professors, but the students mm-hmm. <affirmative> who were, would comment to us, well, I was over in literature. I was reading Dante, but now I'm in theology. I'm studying Aquinas, and I see the, the way in which these form together and there's such a richness, um, there's a, a way in which the liberal arts really doesn't make a, it's a liberating, uh, libe, uh, that's the key word in Latin era, because it frees us from that, uh, darkness of sy of ignorance in which we're born. That obscuring of mind, that weaken of the will, that disorder and the passions. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it helps to bring an integrated view of creation and it's creator. Yes. Um, and, and is very, I think in some ways, consoling as you're, you're mentioning it can be interesting, consoling interesting. And, and, and, and builds confidence. And it prepares a person as Father Fasio would always say when he joined the faculty. It prepares a person for professional work. In any field, we have people who went through the core and went on to law or in a carpentry, <laugh> or, or, you know, finance, whatever. So it's, uh, it's a very, um, it's a very good foundation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:06:59 Um, what would you say to some who might, um, object that the kind of prior, uh, I don't know, some kind of the, the role of theology somehow? I don't know, obscures the other disciplines, or that everything just gets collapsed into theology mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, you know, students aren't really getting a university education mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:07:23 <affirmative>, uh, I think that would be very mistaken. Um, we had students who were, um, training in biology or in, um, uh, some field actually specializing in history, al or modern mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, philosophy, reading, uh, everyone from Plato and Aristotle up through Cant, and Hume and the others, uh, uh, it just, it was such so expansive, not being bleached out by theology at all. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> rather theology as, um, in some ways a, a capstone and, uh, illuminating, um, in global, um, vision, which integrates and highlights all the rest, brings them out in their full color range mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and richness. No, it doesn't, it doesn't o overwhelm the others.
Speaker 2 00:08:08 Right. Yeah. I think there's that, uh, image, uh, that some people have used with respect to grace and nature. Yes. That if you have a, a stained glass window mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. It has all of the, you know, colors and beauty within it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's when light alums it, that you see it Yes.
Speaker 0 00:08:24 Much more brilliantly,
Speaker 2 00:08:25 More brilliantly. And, you know, and perhaps in some ways it seems that without theology mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when the universities began to, um, reject or, or, you know, term, uh, many of universities that were founded by, uh, Christian congregations or by the Catholic church Yes. Uh, rejected that mm-hmm. <affirmative> that the different parts in a way began to lose their connection.
Speaker 0 00:08:52 Yeah. Splintering.
Speaker 2 00:08:53 Uh, and I think, think it's, you know, one of the things I, you know, you might have found this when you were hiring faculties, some faculty were very well trained in one area. Yeah. But were not sure about how that particular, their discipline would be connected mm-hmm. <affirmative> to the rest of studies. Yes. And I always thought it was kind of the irony is that we expect the students to learn it all. Yes. Uh, so then the faculty also ought to have some sense mm-hmm. <affirmative> for not only their own discipline, but how their discipline fits within the whole. Yes. Uh, and I think one of the things that that can actually do is it actually prevents us from thinking that our discipline is the only way of viewing the world. Right.
Speaker 0 00:09:37 Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:09:38 I mean, there's something, right. If you, um, you know, there's the joke, right? A man with a hammer sees everything as a nail <laugh>, uh, right. And it's good in a way, for the biologist to see everything in terms of biology or the, you know, the philosopher to see someth, everything in terms of philosophy or, you know, finance or economics, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> literature. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and yet, uh, we also have to remember that the hole is much greater than Yes. Our ability to see it. Right. Even theology. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, yes. Uh, does not see all of the natural world in its splendor qua theology. Right. As revealed theology, <affirmative>, it kind of needs in a way mm-hmm. <affirmative> other studies of grammar mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Yes. Of, uh, yes. Studies of history. Yes. Uh, studies of,
Speaker 0 00:10:24 Uh, philosophy.
Speaker 2 00:10:25 Philosophy, sure. Uh, astronomy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, all these different Yeah. Modes.
Speaker 0 00:10:30 And it can integrate these, uh, and raise them up into the revealed, um, wisdom of God, which, uh, as Aquinas says in question one is God's knowledge of himself concerning himself alone, and then communicated to others for their attitude. It's, uh, God's knowledge <unk> solely day say <unk>. This is question one, article six. And, um, Aquinas also says that theology is not, uh, ne in need of these other sciences, but, uh, uh, the other sciences help to better manifest to us mm-hmm. <affirmative> what, uh, has been revealed to us. So, um, the use, extraordinary use of philosophy by Aquinas mm-hmm. <affirmative> is, um, so, uh, important within sacred doctrine, within that all-encompassing knowledge, which truly God's knowledge of himself and of all things, that's the soccer doctrine, uh, as understood by Aquinas. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:11:35 It reminds me of sometimes the way that the medieval cathedrals Yes. Were described as it's almost like, uh, microcosms of the universe. Yes. Yes. They were like representations Yes. Of, uh, the whole cosmos. Yes. There was a kind of splendor, grandeur Yes. Heights, you know, these sorts of elements.
Speaker 0 00:11:55 Yes. Just to comment on that too. And, uh, with other temples of other religions, um, this, uh, has been, uh, something's come up with the history of religion, study of, um, different religions that temples would be microcosms. Hmm. And in the cathedral, what we have then is the microcosm with the creator corporally present in the center of it mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that makes a huge difference. We have to remember all these, you know, probably billions of human, uh, human beings who preceded us and didn't have the advantage of, uh, the reservation of the God of Israel, he who is, and so we have to pray that, uh, they were through these shadows and figures able to find God and come to him.
Speaker 2 00:12:40 Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. So the cathedral then, in a way, is both brilliant and beautiful, spacious mm-hmm. Ordered, organized, but also you can always find little, uh, it's, it's a never ending kind of, uh, you can, you can go into any, uh, small, you know, uh, corner. Yeah. Small chapel of different areas or mm-hmm. <affirmative> prayer things. But, but within it, you're right. What made it a cathedral mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what made it these great things was that Right. God himself was present in the sacrament. Yeah. Right. So through the liturgy of the church, human beings were restored in relationship to God because God Right. Entered into that relationship with human beings in Christ. Yes. You know, and then, you know, through the church, the sacraments and scriptures, and, and what I, what I also have in mind here is this idea that the cathedral was not limiting mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, it was kind of open and, and I think in a certain way, and you can, you know, let me know if you think this is a helpful way, is that an authentic curriculum, even though, say in the beginning it was small mm-hmm. <affirmative> and limited handful of faculty Yes. Handful students. Yes. Um, was in a way open to the whole
Speaker 0 00:13:52 Yes, very much so.
Speaker 2 00:13:53 Yeah. Right. And so when other disciplines later were added Yes. Um, they weren't doing violence to that Yes. You know, to that original kind of smallness, but they were the flowering Yes. Kind of, you know, the acorn growing into the oak. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:14:12 Yes. And the, and the students would be able to recognize whatever further, you know, uh, say, uh, direction they wanted to go for their, um, major, how the core was actually enabling them to not, not only step into that, uh, more, you know, that professionally directed, uh, subject or area, or that it, uh, really, um, was as you say, a flowering fourth. Yeah. And, and, uh,
Speaker 2 00:14:38 And largely what you're summarizing here, uh, the university actually articulated in its philosophy of the curriculum Yes. Uh, which was developed by, uh, the faculty early on Yes. And continues to be mm-hmm. <affirmative> the philosophy of our curriculum Yes. Uh, today. And it really is that idea that, um, since all of reality comes from God Yes. Right. Uh, both in the, uh, natural order and in the supernatural order of revelation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that education and, uh, uh, an authentic curriculum is, uh, and, and in a way, faculty and students have that recognition in a way that the ultimate reality is greater than Yes. Their particular approaches to it.
Speaker 0 00:15:23 Yes. Uh, we go to, uh, Paul's letter to the Romans chapter one versus 19 and 20, where Paul says that the invisibles power and deity, especially of God are manifest through the visibles he has made. Then, uh, in some ways, anything, and everything is a point where God is manifesting himself, literally manifest because he, he's holding all these things in being. Yeah. And, um, so there's an integration that comes and then, uh, as you say, just opens out to all things you don't get lost in your, in your making.
Speaker 2 00:15:56 Yes. I think it's that idea of kind of like, sometimes I think we think of integrity as a kind of wholeness that can kind of limit or fix. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> not a, it's almost like I think modernity sees integrity as a kind of prison from which freedom needs to break out. Yes. Yeah. Um, but instead the way you're describing integrity mm-hmm. <affirmative> is a kind of wholeness, uh, into which we grow. Yes. Right. So it's, it's the fullness of our nature. It's the fullness of our common life together, which we may never fully achieve in this life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Uh, but that allows, so this integrity in the integration of learning. Yes. Uh, the integration of knowledge, the integration of the disciplines mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, is, is actually a kind of fertile Yes. And, and open because it accepts certain kind of ultimate truths. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:16:49 Then, oh, there's an hierarchical order, then, then we
Speaker 2 00:16:52 Can explore
Speaker 0 00:16:53 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:16:54 <affirmative> Yeah. And we can encounter a kind of joy Yes. In learning. Right. A joy in the truth. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> as John Paul II would describe it next, Courte
Speaker 0 00:17:04 Eia. Yes. A beginning of that eternal be attitude for which he has made us and saved us.
Speaker 2 00:17:09 Wow. That's a really, really helpful. How would you tell us a little bit about your own study mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how did you get interested in learning mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, how were you educated? How did you end up becoming a theologian, and maybe how do you, who were some of the teachers, uh, yes. That influenced you along the way? Yes.
Speaker 0 00:17:30 Um, well, I was in college in California, St. Mary's College, uh, from 1966 to 1970. Uh, put it briefly, it's a time when it was easily easy to be confused. Wow. And, uh, easy to be confused about many things. And, um, I must say that Father Owen Carroll, uh, who, uh, spent almost 45, 50 years at St. Mary's, he also taught at the Ion School of Philosophy and Theology in Berkeley with grad students, uh, was a major influence, and I can't think of enough. Um, he, um, has recently published a book that I would like to show to <laugh>. Yeah. Everyone, um, the Sufferings and Glory of Christ, uh, A Meditation on Holy Week. He also has a new book coming out on the Five Ways of Aquinas, which is really going to be quite extraordinary. Um, but I, I, I met him at St. Mary's at a point when everybody was more or less saying, most of the professors just not all saying that Aquinas and the ancients were passe, irrelevant. And Father Carroll.
Speaker 2 00:18:37 So this is the late sixties
Speaker 0 00:18:39 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:18:39 Yeah. In San Francisco.
Speaker 0 00:18:40 Yeah. That area
Speaker 2 00:18:41 And Bay Area. Yeah. Bay Area, I guess Oakland
Speaker 0 00:18:44 Or, yeah, more, yeah. More closer to, let's say the, the, the hills and the other side. Yeah. Yeah. From Oakland. Okay. Extraordinarily beautiful area, by the way.
Speaker 2 00:18:52 Yes, yes. But kind of almost an epicenter of Oh, yeah. Of a lot of just, I mean, yeah. A collision of ideas. Yes. And a lot of, you know, like destabilization Yes. Of classical forms of education and maybe classical forms of Yes, yes. Christianity.
Speaker 0 00:19:12 Yes. Yeah. Calling into question. And there were extraordinary number of theologians who got lost during that time, both American and Europeans and others. And, um, I think we're very sincere, but, but very mistaken in many ways. God bless them anyway, but I just think, uh, so Father Carol was able to show that the ancients, Aquinas and others, and he was also very well read in others like Cant Hagle. He could discuss Acar, he could discuss any of these people with any expert. He was able to show us a lot of times through examples and through going slowly through Aquinas's text, what Aquinas is really saying, not just what other people might have be saying. He's saying, um, that he was able to really unfold for us the richness of Aquinas's thinking, Augustine, uh, DiUS the apait and others more recent, of course, too. Um, so, uh, he, he really, he's still alive at 91, 92 years old now, and he has written this long work on the Five Ways of Aquinas, and you finished it when he was 91 <laugh>. So he's, he's really an amazing man. I love that. Uh, he's still living in Oakland
Speaker 2 00:20:25 Now. Uh, how did his, how did his teaching, as you're describing it here, uh, not teaching maybe merely texts or the history of theology, or merely, I don't know, theological ideas, but you somehow helping students encounter the realities Yes. Yes. That are disclosed Yes. By these authors. Yes. Um, how did that impact your
Speaker 0 00:20:52 Own very
Speaker 2 00:20:53 Much location? Yes. As a teacher?
Speaker 0 00:20:55 Well, as Aquinas says, um, that the mind should not stop at Enunciates. That is words, it must arrive at the res, the things themselves. And too much of theology seems to be caught up with memorizing of conceptual patterns, rather than a real seeing of the actual beings. As Aquinas says, there's nothing in the intellect, which is not first in the senses. So we've got to come to the sense corporeal beings. It's through the visibles that we come to the invisible perfections of God. And, uh, father Carol was so good with examples that he came up with just using examples from Aquinas, um, the Archer shooting an arrow, all the implications that, for the fifth wave, for example, of, uh, or
Speaker 2 00:21:42 Could you say more just a word about that first? Sure. For listeners, the archer shooting The Arrow. Arrow, yeah. Right. What's, how is, what's that an example of?
Speaker 0 00:21:49 Well, actually, what Father Carol does is he shows in the five ways that there, uh, is a kind of unity to them all. Starting with the, uh, first moving, being all, we see all these moving beings, and then we see that, uh, the, uh, moving being gives to the, uh, moved being, let's say the archer to the arrow. Uh, a certain movement that has a certain character and directionality to it that is necessarily in flight. Now, the arrow is cannot be otherwise as long as it is in flight, and it's sharing a certain perfection of movement that is a perfection first in God who's a source of all perfections, of all beings who is governing the universe toward its target and the new heavens and the new Earth, the heavenly Jerusalem. So, um, I hope that's answering your question, but it's just, he was able to show through the examples of Aquinas and others that he developed this, um, you're seeing the beings, you know, not just bringing together concepts.
Speaker 2 00:22:51 Yeah. That's, uh, it's really powerfully put in it's a sense of education Yes. As helping people to come into contact with reality.
Speaker 0 00:23:01 Yes. Education as X from, uh, Latin X duray to lead out of what? Out of what? Out of the darkness of sin, and an ignorance in which we were born. And it's, uh, really in some ways, like the exodus, well, Greek word, the way out of this, uh, uh, shadows and darkness in which we, uh, this world lies, um, because of our sins. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:24 And in order to have that kind of education so that we can maybe leave behind some of our misunderstandings, some of our Right, I don't know, deceptive ways or Yes, yes. Misunderstandings about the world. Yes. We, through education, come into greater contact with reality. Yes. Uh, and what I hear you saying is that that was something you first encountered in theology Yes. As really the touchstone of true theology and through Father Carol and,
Speaker 0 00:23:58 And others too. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:59 And then, um, but him, but it, and then being able to read, say di um, pseudo dynas mm-hmm. <affirmative> or Augustine mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Paul, John Yes. As well as the scriptures Yes. The scriptures, and of course, Aquinas. Yes. Seeing them as introducing us to, in a way, helping us to see the truth of the universe. The truth of the
Speaker 0 00:24:18 Universe. Universe. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:24:19 Yes. And therefore, truth, the truth of creation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Yes. The truth about the creator Yes. Who not only comes to us through creation, but also comes to us through the incarnation. Yes. Right. But that overall approach really opens itself up into actually a rich notion of education for any discipline. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> it is. Right. Because even say if you turn to biology, yes. You're trying to look at the world as it truly is. Uh, yes. And that we, when we discover dna mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we discover principles of order mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, within the universe, when we see things like the incredible complexity of the cell or different things like this. Yes. You Right. We're not, we're not simply imposing mm-hmm. <affirmative> on reality, a concept. Yes. Uh, or simply a, you know, I don't know how to put it, some kind of, um, mode of speech. Yeah. But we're encountering, like, we're encountering truth. Yes. Right. And right. And, and so therefore, that same principle in a way that you took from your studies of theology, Uhhuh <affirmative> opens itself up to a whole understanding of the university.
Speaker 0 00:25:28 Yes, exactly. Um, the, for Aquinas, again, the nothing in the intellect, which isn't first in the sensible beings. And so, um, it grounds you in the, the sensible and then the intellect, that word comes from Latin intu lege to read within that is we're, let's say we're looking at something, it's a rock that's one of Aquinas's favorite, uh, a stone lapido, and we're looking at a stone, and we're making me looking at it and say, what is that over there? And it's present in the eye as that a sensible, um, image impression. And then the, there's in is that natural desire to understand what is it to understand, to get to the sub stance of the being. What is that? And let that which is there now be present in our mind in this other form, uh, what's in sensible and being now becomes present in our sense and into our intellect. And there's a, a real kind of identity or union with the known present now in the knower as
Speaker 2 00:26:40 Well mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So education is helping people to come into that union with reality. Yes, exactly. Right. And I think there, you made a, uh, subtle distinction, and we'll, I'd like to come back and talk about this a little bit more, and I'd like also to ask you, uh, when we get back from our break Okay. To, uh, tell us a bit more about some of the, uh, ways in which you would try to introduce students mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, to, uh, what Avi Maria was trying to do. Yeah. Uh, but just real quickly, I think that in, in decart in modern philosophy, you get an emphasis on thinking mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he'll even describe man as a thinking thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that, but thinking in some ways is thinking about something. It's the first step of the mm-hmm. <affirmative> intellect. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. The second mode is understanding, it's moving from perceiving to the judgment that what I'm thinking is true.
Speaker 2 00:27:31 Uh, and that what you s what you're kind of gently reminding mm-hmm. <affirmative> us of from Aquinas, is that Aquinas is never merely about thinking mm-hmm. <affirmative> thinking or reasoning, as he will put it. Sometimes raio, as he will describe it, is, is a mode that springs from understanding from intellectus Yes. And issues in understanding. Yes. Which is why I think sometimes, you know, in our contemporary world of education, we have incredibly high levels of thinking mm-hmm. <affirmative> that are phenomenal mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. We can, I, I think last Christmas we launched Right. We launched a telescope that orbits the sun. Yes. Very. That's, that's pretty impressive thinking. Very. Right. And yet at the same time, we find ourselves sometimes with a lack of understanding of what does it mean to be human? Yes. Right. Exactly. And so, exactly. Anyways, I think that unders that moving to that shift of understanding education is about helping me understand reality. Yes. And therefore, I have been brought into contact with that reality by other teachers. Yes. And so as a teacher, I help to bring other students mm-hmm. <affirmative> so that they can do that. Yes. Right. Exactly. It's really kind of an invitation. Yes. Uh, to see things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, uh, let's, uh, we'll, we'll take a break and we'll come back, uh, shortly. Okay. Fine.
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Speaker 2 00:29:26 Dr. Reardon, in the early days of Avi Maria, uh, you served as dean of the faculty, I think associate Dean at some point Yeah. For a short time. And, uh, I remember, uh, you gave a wonderful talk to students and parents mm-hmm. <affirmative> during orientation back in the early two thousands mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, do you remember that talking? Uh, yes. Would you just, what were a couple kind of key themes that you felt were helpful to kind of orient to like turn our, to help students understand the, the kind of education that you were so invested mm-hmm. <affirmative> in passing on.
Speaker 0 00:30:05 Yes. Uh, the, um, intention of that, uh, talk was to help the students who had just read Joseph Pee's Leisure, the Basis of Culture. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if I take a moment to talk about, that book was published right after World War II by a German philosopher Catholic. And, um, he writes right in the beginning, people might say, what are you talking about? Leisure for our country is a mess. We've gotta rebuild. We've got work to do. And he says, no, uh, well, that's important, but we need to have this, um, develop this contemplative ability to see creation and creations creator much more present and with us, so that we don't just build away. Um, you know, as the psalmist says, um, those, uh, unless the, the Lord build the house, the laborers labor in vain mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, um, Joseph,
Speaker 2 00:31:04 I think I remember in that book, he Right. I think he contrasts, you can either have homo sapiens Uhhuh or Homo Faber. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:31:11 Right.
Speaker 2 00:31:11 Is it Yes. Is it man, the knower mm-hmm. <affirmative> or Man, the maker. Builder.
Speaker 0 00:31:17 Builder, yeah. And Tower of Babel would be an example. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> of that kind of way in which the human race can, or any person in their private life can try to build themselves up so that people will notice them. That's by the way, in the Genesis text, that we'll build something that everybody will notice. And, uh, it's, uh, always a dead end. And, um, we, in that talk then I tried to focus the students on, uh, the importance of their study importance of letting the, what they're learning deeply inform them. That's a word that Aquinas will use information that is what you're learning is actually forming itself in you and conforming you to the realities that you are, uh, seeing and learning about, and ultimately conforming you to the maker of these realities. There's a deification, there's a, there's a making us more and more like God, uh, and, uh, this is the beginning of the attitude when we will see God as he is, John says.
Speaker 0 00:32:20 And, um, so we emphasize, I tried to emphasize the, the importance of the core, and then all the courses that we would be taking in their major and so on. And, uh, also the life of prayer that they would bring themselves, uh, let the Lord bring them to, uh, worship, uh, was also very strong in people that, um, the study and contemplation reality should lead us in gratitude to God, Eucharist, giving thanks. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and worship of God who is made us in such a way that we can apprehend, take in and become more and more familiar with him through his creation and the greatness of his creation, and praise him for
Speaker 2 00:33:03 It. Now, you're describing here a kind of vision of a whole education Yes. That would flower mm-hmm. <affirmative> in worship.
Speaker 0 00:33:14 Exactly. This,
Speaker 2 00:33:15 This seems to contrast perhaps what some people might imagine a Catholic education is, which is, uh, kind of training or knowledge. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> plus piety. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, as though kind of piety, uh, is good. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, perhaps mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but is really separate from the education proper. So the classroom is one area, the chapel is another. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but they're, they're, they're, they're really separate. But tell us about what, how, how, how are these actually connected to one another? Cause I think that sounds kind of strange.
Speaker 0 00:33:50 Yes. There's a great word in Greek, um, cosmos, we use it in English too. It comes from the Greek word, uh, cosk, which means the way that a woman adorns herself to beautify her, show her beauty. Mm.
Speaker 2 00:34:05 And like our word, cosmetics,
Speaker 0 00:34:07 Something, something, cosmos, cosmetics. Yes. And, uh, then you see that beau to be just trained in some field, and then worshiping the creator and not being attentive to creation in the, in the multiple perspectives that the, the other subjects can provide for us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> a panorama, a richness, uh, is to miss an awful lot. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, it's, uh, there's another, also a good word in Latin universe, unk vasari, to turn together as one, that all things are coming forth from God, issuing from him, being sustained in being and aimed back toward himself in the new heavens and new earth, the wedding feast of the Lamb, and to these other subjects, these liberal arts enable us to see that richness as we're preparing for the birth of the Lord. What a difference it is to be able to have some deep familiarity with history, be able to see what the significance of this birth really is for every human being from the first two onward, who, uh, God intends says, uh, God wants to save all men, as he says first, I think it's first or second Timothy. Yes. So there's a, there's an a richness that is not available if you just simply go for your profession. And then piety. Piety is great, but it can be a richer piety and deeper piety with the liberal arts.
Speaker 2 00:35:37 So maybe one, if I had to summarize all of that in one word mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it would be truth.
Speaker 0 00:35:43 Right. Which
Speaker 2 00:35:45 Al Yes. Truth is both one Yes. And also, uh, has Right. Uh, an abundant richness. Yes. Uh, that flowers forth in a million truths. Yes. Uh, that all of which flow from and flow back to. So if our education is orienting us to reality, uh, maybe first in the reality of the created world mm-hmm. <affirmative> and of ourselves, then it naturally leads to an understanding of the source of that world Yes. In the creator. Yes. And having come to understand mm-hmm. <affirmative> the creator Yes. Both through the world, but then also through his revelation. Right. When I understand in a way the beauty and dignity of another person, I have to act in accordance. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:36:32 Right.
Speaker 2 00:36:33 Exactly. It wouldn't make sense to understand, uh, what another human being is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then, uh, not somehow honor
Speaker 0 00:36:41 The image of God in that person.
Speaker 2 00:36:43 Yeah. So in the same way to understand the truth about God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> especially as revealed in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 0 00:36:49 Right. Because
Speaker 2 00:36:50 Would must fo flow forth in a kind of honoring love and gratitude. Yes,
Speaker 0 00:36:56 Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:36:56 So they're, you know, it's, it's, it's the unity of truth. Yes. That really unites Right. The classroom and the chapel.
Speaker 0 00:37:02 Yeah. And Christ tells us that he is the truth, the way, the truth and the life. And he is that primal truth, who is God, uh, in his fullness, knows first himself, the infinity of infinite perfectionists of his own essence. Then he expresses all of that in his one word, his son God from God. And then through the word, uh, speaks into existence, all of the beings, uh, Genesis, uh, God spoke and the came to be. And so that same word is, um, the one who is coming to restore and rescue what has been, uh, hurting, uh, be, be damaged, has been damaged and hurt, um, through, uh, the fall. The richness, as you say then of, uh, cosmos universe being restored and saved is, uh, I think central to our understanding of the university. By the way, the university is a Catholic invention from the Middle Ages in Europe.
Speaker 0 00:38:03 Uh, they were the first to start these kinds of schools where you would have this variety of subjects. And, uh, with theology as a capstone, always issuing fourth in praise, Eucharist, mass. Um, Aquinas was teaching when he was in Paris, actually in the cathedral of Nore dame while it was being built <laugh>. So, wow. Yeah. Notice the reaction too, of the French to when the, there was a big fire in Nore Dame Cathedral several years ago. They weren't gonna let that thing just, uh, you know, go. There was an enormous reaction that I think shows that, um, there's a deep appreciation, a greater great appreciation for God and his and, and what the church is at a subliminal level, almost in Western society. And it's really hurting that we're not educating ourselves into it and restoring it and going, taking it
Speaker 2 00:38:58 Further. Yeah. So this is the larger vision Yes. Uh, that you and the other faculty back, uh, when there were four of you. Yes. And then, uh, as it grew, right. Uh, yes. You know, from what, uh, single digits to double digits to mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, three digits.
Speaker 0 00:39:14 Yeah. And we had to
Speaker 2 00:39:15 Restore, uh, growing over time.
Speaker 0 00:39:17 And, and you be, you, you took over as the dean after I had a short spell down here when we first arrived, and, uh, you know, father Lamb came and, uh, uh, father Fasio.
Speaker 2 00:39:28 Right. And I think it's that same sense just as though this vision of an in the integrity of learning Yes. The in and the unity of truth, it welcomes many new disciplines and it welcomes many new people. Yes. Right. It's not limited Yes. To Yes. Uh, the particulars because it's open, uh, to the whole.
Speaker 0 00:39:47 To the whole.
Speaker 2 00:39:48 Exactly. And, you know, how did you, so I think you've, this is just such a, it's, it's so wonderful to kind of go back and walk through these, uh, days because I think that, that sometimes, you know, when the May University's established, uh, sometimes people can maybe take for granted and don't realize, uh, what was, uh, kind of fought for what was developed maybe slightly against the grain of the dominant trends in contemporary education Yes. Uh, today, which tend to be either more technical or perhaps more focused on social change. Yes. Uh, but what I'd love to just shift gears for a moment is we've kind of looked at the beautiful vision. What were some things that you did as a teacher, uh, right. You were, uh, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you're still emeritus professor with the university, but you taught for, uh, 20 years or more mm-hmm. <affirmative> and before that had taught for many years in, uh,
Speaker 0 00:40:41 Secret Hartman or Cemetery Seminary in Detroit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:40:44 So just what were some things you did in the classroom mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that tried to, you know, carry out this vision of education as, uh, helping the student and the professor, right. To conform mm-hmm. <affirmative> to reality.
Speaker 0 00:41:01 Yes. Yes. Uh, examples, uh, father Carol use many examples, tearing paper, any of their audience remember, or students here mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, uh, use that, that, uh, exercise is basically working out some implications from par amenities, uh, that where we arrive at seeing that anything that is existing, any of the existing beings are necessarily don't exist except in as much as they're issuing from and being held in existence by the one DiUS. And, and others iga are able to take this platonic, uh, developments through the descendants of Plato, develop that so that one sees that that one is the Trinity. And, uh, we don't, we aren't existing right now holding this podcast, except that being is holding us in existence in all the equipment and everything else that's going on in the entire universe right now. And, um, that exercise did make quite an impression, but it had to be done slowly and repeatedly.
Speaker 0 00:42:08 Um, there were other examples too. I wanted to try to help the students to understand, uh, the divine ideas. That is how God knows all the perfections of his essence, and then chooses some of those perfections to be participated by creatures. And so he has these divine ideas. And, um, so I spoke to them about, I'd, I'd play a piece of music by Mozart and then ask them, uh, aren't you hearing the interior of Mozart's mind when he conceived this melody? You see this piano concerto number 21 or whatever second movement is a particularly beautiful one. And, um, the, the inaudible figures ideas there coming out audibly into the air and then into you, so that those same figures and forms can be inside your mind that were in Mozarts and were his joy. That's the, through the medium of the sound, then there's this communication of the inaudible through the audible into us, um, that, uh, that's what God is doing with all the things that he's making.
Speaker 2 00:43:17 So when, when we listen to music Yes. Right. We are listening to the interior of the, of another person. Yeah, exactly. And how is another person mm-hmm. <affirmative> able to communicate that interior life mm-hmm. <affirmative> to us Yes. Through sounds Yes. Either Right. Instrumental or through words.
Speaker 0 00:43:37 Yes. Yeah. Isn't that what's going on between us, even converse with each other and so on.
Speaker 2 00:43:41 And, and it's one of those things we take so for granted mm-hmm. <affirmative> that we often don't realize the mystery of it. Yes. Kind of write the wonder Yes. That we can communicate ideas mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we can communicate, uh, stories mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yes. Uh, we can communicate, uh, like a whole history of emotions with music. And if we can do that, what can, through our spoken sounds Yes. Right. Or play ins, you know, through instruments or through our voice mm-hmm. <affirmative> then. Right. In some ways, that's what Right. God is doing. Yes. Through Right. We learned not only in Genesis that God Right. You know, um, said, let there be light. Right. He, he
Speaker 0 00:44:27 Spoke. Yes. And it came to be
Speaker 2 00:44:29 Integration. Yeah. Yeah. But I know you, uh, often would talk to students about the beginning of John. Yes. In a way, when John retells the story of creation, right in the beginning, yes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but now through the incarnate Yes. Word. Yes. Can you say a word about that? About how Right. That, about how this sense of God's speaking. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:44:50 Yes. Uh, uh, the beginning of John's, uh, gospel, so, so very important, and in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. What came to be was life in him. Now that divine life that's in the word is, uh, the divine essence, which the Father speaks forth eternally, and then he speaks through that word, the creatures into existence. And, uh, both Augustine and Aquinas take that reading of the text. What came to be creatures was life in hymns, his living divine essence. Uh, there's a communication of life that's going on. The, the things that are coming to being, whether they're alive or not, they're still in some ways expressing the interior life of God and his perfections. And then that one became fe and then he became flesh. And so the one who is dwelling forever in the bosom of the Father, as John says, at the end of that prologue, he has made the father known in such a way that, uh, we're not only able to say there is a first being and a cause of all, but that first being is the blessed trinity ever with the Holy Spirit preceding as that mutual love, uh, of each other, the Father,
Speaker 2 00:46:11 And how beautiful that there's no competition. Yeah, exactly. In, in the way that you describe it there, there's not a competition between God's presence as the Creator mm-hmm. <affirmative> in having created all that is created Yes. Through his word, um, and his eternal word. Yes. Right. So that God and the creature are not in competition with one another. And that also means that creation in its, uh, created goodness is not in competition with one another.
Speaker 0 00:46:41 Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:46:41 Right. Yes. So that there is a fundamental, original harmony. Yeah. Right. In some ways, I think we can think about this spoken ness mm-hmm. <affirmative> Yes. If God creates through the world Word, uh, some people like Toan and Lewis have thought about that as God creates through song. Yes. Right? Yes. And so God creates a fundamental harmony. Yeah. So we of course, experience much disharmony. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, we experience sin, confusion. Right. Death, destruction, yes. Betrayal, all sorts of these things. Yes. Um, but that's in a way secondary. Yes. That's a, that that be, that's not original. There's the original goodness, and then there's the corruption by sin. And then God enters into that sin mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> in order to somehow heal it. Yes. Right. Uh, ultimately through the resurrection.
Speaker 0 00:47:26 Yes. Yes. He's not about to let his very good creation, as he calls it in Genesis, uh, just linger and fall
Speaker 2 00:47:35 Away. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that also means, one of the things I think that when we listen to, or when we talk about, say, aquinas's proofs for the existence of God from looking at the cosmos, we forget that we ourselves are part of the cosmos. That's right. So when we think about God loving, created things, it doesn't just mean he loves the world outside of us, but it means he loves us. Yes. We are one of those things. Yes. That God, as you put it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, certain perfections he chose to bring into being. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:48:02 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:48:03 We Right. And this is personal, right? You and I mm-hmm. <affirmative> are among those things. Yes. Absolutely. Each listeners, among those things, those realities that God has, has, has loved and willed Yes. And brought into being. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:48:18 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:48:18 Uh, with a, with a purpose.
Speaker 0 00:48:19 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:48:20 Aim, the world is not an accident. We're not
Speaker 0 00:48:22 Accidents. That's right. No. All very, very much intended providentially ordered. And, uh, as Augustine, uh, Aquinas following say, God does not allow any evil in this world, that he cannot even greater good out of it. And, uh, there's a lot going on in Ukraine. There's a lot going on many parts of the world, but we don't see what tremendous acts people are performing in which they are meriting eternal life right now. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, if you, here in Florida, we had a terrible hurricane. Ian really wiped out a lot of people's homes and, and so on. And, uh, but you'd fall on the news, people doing things, saying things were, they're just, uh, extraordinary works of grace going on and not recommending <laugh> that we look for hurricanes, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's just, uh, he's at
Speaker 2 00:49:16 Work. Remember he said, we're reading somebody
Speaker 0 00:49:17 In him. We even move and have our beings. So he's,
Speaker 2 00:49:19 He's, and, and that this is Right Christ and Paul show that the, the, the glory will be revealed, but it will come about somehow through mm-hmm. <affirmative> through hardship, suffering. Yes. Uh, so therefore, the fact that we cannot avoid or outthink or escape death Yes. And difficulties I need not rob us of hope. Yes. Right. Because Yes. Right. Christ has triumphed. Now, uh, I did want to just mention one thing, and then I wanted to ask you a few questions Okay. As, as we conclude. But one is, I think so many students know of you as a teacher mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, who I think, uh, threw himself into teaching as much as anyone really has. Uh, and I know you don't like to, um, you know, hear the attention, uh, but I think the, I, the university recently, uh, named a faculty excellence award after, um, you know, Dr.
Speaker 2 00:50:10 Bill Raden. And I think that kind of shows the impact and I think the encouragement that many of us find in wanting to become better teachers. And I think that many of our students, uh, but you were also a scholar, um, and, uh, this, this book on Divine Light, the Theology of Dennis, the Aapa DiUS, published by Ignatius Press was a, a real wonderful gift as well. And I think shows that genuine teaching comes out of that conformity, uh, al almost that kind of consecration and, uh, cordial speaking about is we consecrate ourselves to the truth. Uh, and so I just wanted to thank you for your work on that.
Speaker 0 00:50:50 Yeah. Also, uh, I just, if I can mention another book that was published by the University's, uh, NCIA Press here on the Mystical Theology of Dionisia, the APA Guide. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, it's, uh, was his treatise on prayer Yes. Which was taken and still is considered one of the greatest, uh, works on prayer Aquinas in the Sacs. Question 180 follows DESE very carefully in his discussion of contemplation. Yeah. And, um, that book is, uh, that's
Speaker 2 00:51:18 Right. What's, what's the title of that book?
Speaker 0 00:51:20 Uh, uh, the Mystical Theology of Dionysius, the APA Guide was, uh,
Speaker 2 00:51:25 And, and the actual mystical Theology, the text is only what, 10, 15 pages? That's
Speaker 0 00:51:30 Right.
Speaker 2 00:51:30 Yeah. And it's wonderful. You wrote a whole book, <laugh>, uh, both introducing it and then translating it and unpacking it. Yeah. Right. We often do need to read great works. Uh, we often Right. We, we we're, you know, we're human. We also need teachers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I think, you know, your book in some ways is an encapsulation of your
Speaker 0 00:51:48 Teaching. Well, I hope so. Uh, but I hope the teaching was what it should be, and I hope the book was, but the, what I did is I tried to do the, um, Greek on one side and the facing page translation English mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then commentary. So
Speaker 2 00:52:00 Yes, a net book can be found with, uh, Sapia Press, which is, uh, sold through Catholic University America Press. Uh, so just three quick questions towards the end. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. What's a, what's a spiritual practice that you do every day to help you find meaning mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:52:16 <affirmative> on purpose? Um, yeah. Um, I usually do the Divine Office, uh, with my wife in the morning, if we can get it in. Sometimes we don't. Uh, and in Evening Divine Office, um, daily mass at least of some sort, we're not quite as mobile as we used to be, so sometimes we do it on E W T N and then, um, as much as possible being, uh, sitting in adoration, uh, that's really a big help. Um, my wife is a tremendous, uh, um, companion and friend and beautiful lady, and we pray, do a lot of time and prayer together, so
Speaker 2 00:52:51 That's, that's beautiful. Um, an another question. What's a book you're reading,
Speaker 0 00:52:56 I'm reading right now? Um, a book that's still in edited, it's still being edited. It's The Five Ways of Aquinas by Father, uh, Owen Carroll. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, I think it's a extraordinary analysis of the five Ways, I think bringing out, um, the significance of the five Ways for the movement of the entire Suma, because, uh, and see in the first, um, part you have, uh, the discussion of God and then creation, and then, then the second part, man as, uh, being moved toward God, third part Christ as our way to God, the five ways he's able to show that the five ways are somehow undergirding the entire work. It is going to be a, a marvelous Yeah. And it's gonna be published by Altus Magnus Press, uh, president is, uh, Stephen Cortright, uh, former professor of philosophy at St. Mary's. And, uh, another young man named John Johnson, who is, um, very much the sort of, uh, degen worker mm-hmm. <affirmative> to write, to bring the you. That's the press to, to,
Speaker 2 00:54:05 To force. Well, it's wonderful to see that you continue to really have that deep passion for learning and, uh, and that idea that Right. The, it's, I guess it's not surprising that the five ways of showing God would mm-hmm. <affirmative> be connected to Christ, who as a witness says is our way. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:54:20 That's right. Exactly. That's
Speaker 2 00:54:21 It. And then finally, what's, what's one false belief that you held about God mm-hmm. <affirmative> and what was the
Speaker 0 00:54:30 Truth you described? Oh, which one? <laugh>. I, uh, in the undergraduate years, I was, uh, very mistaken and confused at times about, uh, about God and at time, but a certain point, I think I probably didn't believe that there was a God and, and more and more convinced that there was, and then it was a journey to find, um, more and more back by way to the Catholic, uh, truth, uh, with Christ as the one true, true teacher in all of us as a learners. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, but, uh, yeah, there's always, uh, God is always drawing us back at every moment he's at work.
Speaker 2 00:55:08 Well, well, uh, bill, thank you so much for Thank you, being with, uh, US today. And it's such a joy to kind of walk back through, uh, the early days of Avi Maria Institute, college and, and now university. Yes. And to really remind ourselves, uh, and to remember that, that founding mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and continuing right. Vision Yes. That really orients, uh, the university mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. As a Catholic university. Yes. Uh, that, that, that engages and, uh, right. Brings, draws in all sorts of different modes of study mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, but but with an overall purpose mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, with a sense that they do somehow in a small way. Right. Help to restore a little bit of the order and the harmony that, that God originally sang in his universe. So, uh, thank you so much. Thank
Speaker 0 00:56:05 You.
Speaker 3 00:56:06 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
