Speaker 0 00:00:00 From 180 ad you've got Mary taught on three continents that she's the new Eve, she's the second eve, she's the new mother of the living. And, and that's why many think that it was really an apostolic tradition brought down from Polycarp. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> to Aran nas. Yeah. But this radically shows God's love for woman A and what authentic Christian feminism really is, but b, his love of motherhood.
Speaker 2 00:00:33 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Dolphine, and today we are joined by Professor Mark Mira. So thank you so much for being on our show today.
Speaker 0 00:00:45 A real joy to be with you, Michael. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:00:47 Absolutely. And we are gonna be speaking today on Maryology, on the Theology of Mary, really, who is Mary, and why is her role so important to a full understanding of God and his plan for our redemption? Uh, now, uh, for listeners who may not be familiar with Professor Mira, uh, he has, uh, taught for over 30 years at the Franciscan University of Steubenville, and has now actually also taught over, over five years at Abeer University, where he currently holds the, uh, bloom chair of Maryology. And, uh, it's one of our, uh, one of our more most popular classes, uh, is the class on Maryology for our students. And so you teach a whole course on Maryology, and I think today's a great day to let our viewers and listeners kind of get a little, like a little window into mm-hmm. <affirmative> write the magic of that classroom.
Speaker 2 00:01:51 And just to kind of step away for a second, now, we know there are, I think right, seven great feast days, at least in the calendar to celebrate Mary and her various, uh, parts of it. Mary has, uh, such a role. Um, but I know when you wrote a book back, I think in 2014 called Meet Your Mother, a Brief Introduction to Mary, uh, published by Marion, uh, press and, uh, the Guston Institute mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you called it. Right. Meet Your Mother. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So why is it that when, when we think about all the different things that we can have in terms of understanding, Mary, why would you, why would you select, uh, meet your Mother? What is it about Mary's motherhood that perhaps is maybe the key to kind of unlocking the hole?
Speaker 0 00:02:40 Yeah, that's a great question, Michael. In fact, you know, the Holy Father, uh, Pope Francis did a, uh, a book on our lady basically interviews, um, and it was, uh, <unk> uh mm-hmm. <affirmative>, she's my mother. That was the answer. So, wow.
Speaker 2 00:02:55 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:02:55 <affirmative>. And so, you know, we're not alone in talking about motherhood. I think it is, because even theologically, everything comes forth from the fact that she says yes to the art angel, Gabriel. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, she becomes the mother of the Redeemer, and by, uh, association, by by extension properly said she's our mother. So, yeah, there's the prerogatives of our lady, which is, you know, a fancy way of saying the gifts she's received, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So she's, she's immaculately conceived. She's the perpetual virgin. She's assumed in heaven, body and soul mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but her relationship to Jesus and a relationship to us is captured in one word, and that's mother and I think Michael even today mm-hmm. <affirmative>, yeah. In, in the midst of all the hesitancies from society to accept even objective moral norms about anything. Yeah. Perhaps, perhaps the last existing universal. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:03:53 <affirmative> is an appreciation for motherhood. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that, that at least, I mean yeah. Soldiers die with the name of their mother on their lips. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, there still is a general, even though everything else has kind of been debunked in, in many ways mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's still a respect for mother. And, and so I think when we use that term for Mary, uh, no single term better be speaks who she is in relation to Jesus. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and in relation to us. And, and, and that's a beautiful thing, right. Because that makes Jesus our brother without us being, uh, pretentious. Mm. You know, he, he, he really Yes. Is because we share the same mother as well as our Lord savior. Of course.
Speaker 2 00:04:32 Yeah. Wow. That's so, uh, that's so helpful to kind of take something as visceral Right. In a way as motherhood, um, something that shapes, uh, right. Each of our lives, uh, right. And, and, and it is great to see, I think, you know, when, when people, when moms, I have a, you know, uh, three young, uh, granddaughters now, and when moms walk around with, uh, you know, young, uh, infants, you know, or young children, it's like the initial thing is always this certain sense of appreciation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, almost everyone wants to somewhat, you know, smile at least for, at least for a little bit until, you know, maybe the kids get unruly or something, or cry, but, and then it's like, mom, uh, <laugh>, you know? Uh, right. But, and, and to think th that somehow that our way of entering into God's plan, that, that God created as good, that, that we became wounded and separated due to sin, and God somehow wants to reconcile us to himself as children of God.
Speaker 2 00:05:28 So, and, and maybe this is a way of, you know, somewhat addressing, I think, you know, when, when I first came back to the faith and I had not yet fully come back to Catholicism, I think I was sometimes nervous about the Catholic emphasis on Mary. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think some, uh, evangelical Protestants can maybe think that this is a little bit unbiblical. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, so clearly God wants to be our Father. He teach, Jesus teaches us the prayer of the, our Father. So then why would we Right. If God's our Father, why do we need a mother?
Speaker 0 00:06:04 Yeah. Well, as you were entering even these other dimensions, which are, you know, far reaching and beautiful, like creation, the fall redemption. Yeah. Um, it, it's, it's radically true mm-hmm. <affirmative> that God wanted human cooperation to restore things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but he did not choose, dare I say, a pope or a bishop Yes. Or a priest. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or a man, he chose a woman. Why? Because as the father said, uh, three things led to that fall. You described a man, a woman, uh, and a tree, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so God in his omnipotence and in his, his perfect aesthetics mm-hmm. <affirmative> wants to have those three elements included in the restoration. And that's Jesus, the new Adam St. Paul refers to him marry the New Eve and the Tree of Calvary. So we see that from 180 ad you've got Mary taught on three continents, you know, and this is without obviously any technology. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:07:09 That she's the new Eve. She's the second Eve, she's, she's the new mother of the living. Yeah. And, and that's why many think that it was really an apostolic tradition brought down from poly car to Aran nas. Yeah. How else could it get out so quickly? Yeah. But, but this radically shows God's love for woman mm-hmm. <affirmative> A and what authentic Christian feminism really is, but b, his his love of motherhood. Hmm. And so, as Chesterton says, you know, uh, we could get kids on trees, right? <laugh>, so that tree is a, a redheaded kid, and over there is a, a blonde kid, you'd just go, no. He wanted us intimately involved in this creation, and motherhood is quintessential for that. Wow. So there's so much to say mm-hmm. <affirmative> about how biblical this is because this is part of the restoration. Yeah. So, when, when Mary says yes to the angel Gabriel, um, let me say Thomas would say, she's saying yes for all humanity mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but even from just a biblical perspective, this is the Yes. That corrects eve's no. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's why some of the fathers used to say, you know, Ava becomes <unk>, you know, even the spelling of the word. Mm. Right. That, that her Yes. Makes Right. What was this human rejection mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it, it, it's the ultimate compliment to us as human beings Yeah. And to women mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that, that God wanted a woman intimately involved in the greatest act of human history, which is our redemption. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:08:43 I I think it's Augustine who says that. Right. God who created us without us, uh, chose to not chose not to redeem us without us. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Wanted Mary's Yes. Um, Mary's Yes. To write the arch angel Gabriel. Right. And that her fiat fiat <unk>. This let it be done to me, according to the word. According to your word, is in a way the echo of God's original creative fiat. And that's what we were meant to do, as God said, let it be. And he created the world. We were meant to say, let it be Lord. Uh, you even hear this in, uh, Psalm one 18, a great Psalm mm-hmm. <affirmative> of Eucharistic Thanksgiving for deliverance, uh, which is prayed a lot during the Easter season. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it, it has that line in there that's, this is the day the Lord has made.
Speaker 2 00:09:35 Let us rejoice in it and be glad. And in a way, it's really saying, right. Let this day be Lord. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and I think that's, that's such, that's the, uh, anti right rebellious mode. That, and, and in a way, the thing is, we can't do that on our own. Right. It's only in Christ that we're able to say that. Um, and in the beginning of the redemption Right. That Christ is initiating that Mary, uh, is beginning, uh, one, one other aspect about this. I wanna ask two more things about kind of relating to that. But before we look at kind of how Christ's merits apply to Mary first, I, I think the way you're describing Mary as the New Eve, it's very interesting. If you think about, you mentioned, uh, Saint Iran of Leon, great second century, uh, theologian, church father. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:10:29 <affirmative>, who's writing between like one 50 and ad who is a disciple of Polycarp, who's a disciple of John. Well, it's also very interesting in John, in both John two, when we have the wedding at Cana, and then on the cross, uh, in John 19, uh, where in the wedding of Cana, Mary intercedes and asks Jesus as they have no wine, right. And eventually she says, right. Do whatever he tells you. But he says to her, right woman, what does this have to do with you and me? And then on Calvary, on the cross, right? He says, woman, behold your son and behold your mother. And one thing I began to see is if you see how important the themes of new creation are in the gospel of John, and there are many of them in seven days and seven days of creation. But one of them is that on the cross, he goes back to woman, not just Mary, but woman.
Speaker 2 00:11:25 And you, if you hear that, you begin to hear what's he saying? He's saying, woman, Genesis two, you know, Adam call, you know, he says, you know, uh, this is woman, uh, that, you know, that, that, that really is at the, she shall be called woman, uh, when he sees Eve. And then a little bit later in, uh, Genesis three, he calls her Eve and says, you shall be mother of the living. So the language then of woman puts us back in the garden. Uh, and so in a way, right, this is not, this is very biblical. And of course, it's very fascinating. This is the gospel of John and John discipled, Polycarp and Polycarp discipled iranna. So when Iran AEs is talking about this new eve, it goes right back through the gospel of John.
Speaker 0 00:12:11 Yeah. Yeah. And, and there's so much truth to that word, gunite. The, the, the woman. Yes. Right. Because the woman of Genesis mm-hmm. <affirmative> is also the woman of Kaa who becomes the woman of John 19, uh, who is also the woman of Revelations 12, one. Yeah. Who is even the woman of Galatians four, four mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's the woman with the godman of redemption. So we would think, you know, woman could be a derogatory, you know, I've often, often mentioned to the students, if, you know, if the parents come on a, uh, come and see weekend, and, and, and, and mom says, you know, what about straightening up your room before we go out and visit, I'd feel better about that. And, you know, in independence, the student says, you know, woman, what is this to you? And to me, my time has not yet calm, you know?
Speaker 0 00:13:03 And it's, it's kind of a pushback, but it's the opposite here. Jesus, I is identifying our lady as the woman of scripture, and we know at KAA that he does exactly what she asks. And so there's no sense other than maternal intercession for something fruitful. And that's why Saint John Paul II says, Cana becomes the road to calvary her intercession. Yeah. Not only intercedes the first public miracle of Jesus, but it intercedes the whole public ministry of Jesus. And that's why great commentators, including people like Sheen, have said, what Jesus is really saying there is, are we ready to go to Calvary? Because if I do this miracle mm-hmm. <affirmative> Yeah. We're going there, you know, and both in the Greek and Latin, it's the same thing. You know, <unk> what to mean, and to you is what's being asked, not mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what does your issue have to do with me?
Speaker 0 00:14:01 It's not an adversive, it's, it's, it's the new Adam and the new Eve. It's, it's the redeemer and the Cori saying, if we do this, this is the fast track to Cal mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's all about the Bible. And by the way, you know, if you have any listeners that would like to get even a, a non-Catholic perspective on this mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's a great book called, uh, Mary for Evangelicals mm-hmm. <affirmative> that, uh, came out in the early two thousands. And there are two, uh, Protestant theologians, and they very beautifully, uh, and I think very, uh, courageously say about the passage we're talking about about the enunciation, say, look, don't deny the Catholics, the terms Cori and pediatrics, because that's what happens at the Annunciation, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Now, they're not gonna accept the further ideas in many cases of mediating all graces. But you can't deny that Mary uniquely participate with Jesus. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> her Yes. Brings us the redeemer, and, and don't be concerned about her being a pediatrics because she mediates Jesus the one mediator. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So even from the first chapter of the New Testament mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we have these truths about our ladies God appointed and God delivered mediation.
Speaker 2 00:15:11 Yeah. That's, uh, really, is it just, it's, it's, it's interesting too, because if we think about that sense of mediation, I think sometimes we're not even sure what the word means in part. Right? I think sometimes now we use mediators, uh, to handle disputes. Right. And so we really don't understand the whole notion that, that in a way, right. What's happening in, you know, mediation is that, uh, it's not, we're not resolving an empirical dispute. We're we're having the reality of God <laugh>. Right. Uh, that when Jesus Christ becomes the one mediator between God and man, right. We become somehow restored Pope Benedict in his Jesus and others, wherever Jesus is, Jesus is heaven. Right. Because in Jesus, we have creation, humanity now reconciled perfectly with the Trinity mm-hmm. <affirmative> completely and dwelling. And, and in a way, it would be very strange to have Jesus' restoration of creation in himself, not have any extension, right.
Speaker 2 00:16:22 Yeah. Right. Not have any extension into us and into Mary. Right. He didn't come merely to save his own flesh, but his flesh was there for the life of the world entering through. Right. Mary. And then in a way, kind of going back all the way back to Eve, I love all a lot of the Orthodox icons that will show, uh, Jesus going down and picking up Adam and Eve rescuing them from the tomb. Uh, so Mary's mediation, in a way is to win back Eve. So with that in mind, how would you try to articulate this idea that it's fitting that Jesus' absolutely unique mediation as the, the one who is the son of God who has assumed a human nature, um, but who truly is Lord. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how would you try to articulate that, that unique mediation Right. Is so powerful in a way that it sets the stage for Mary's cooperation in that Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:17:31 In, in a word, Michael participation, because mm-hmm. <affirmative> first Timothy two, five. And I'm so glad you're bringing that up. Yeah. Because we, we've gotta go straight out these texts that are, um, oftentimes, uh, misunderstood as being exclusive mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, you know, even, uh, the, the Greek term I is not monks, which is only one and only it's ass, which is first of many. Yeah. So he's the one mediator, he's the first of many. But, uh, again, John Paul II is genial on this. He says, look, before first Timothy two five, what was there? Well, there was first Timothy two, one, and what happens in first Timothy two, one St. Paul calls us to intercede for one another mm-hmm. <affirmative> for kings. And is that not a form of mediation? Yeah. So, but John Paul also says, what is prohibitive about First Timothy two five?
Speaker 0 00:18:24 Any concept of an equal parallel or competitive mediation with Jesus, that's blasphemy, that's heresy. Anything that's on an equal level. And so when our brothers and sisters who, who are not fully Catholic, think that the Catholic church teaches that, I think it's a particular dagger to the mother's heart, because the last thing she would want. Yeah, absolutely. Last thing is that she's an alternative Jesus. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that the future, her purpose, she's participating in the one mediation of Jesus once again. You know, this is even in the Old Testament with, with, with Miriam. You know, the one, the one woman, uh, named after Mary, she, she literally intercedes from Moses. Yeah. Right. And, and, uh, follows him down the river. So she, she mediates for the one mediator of the Old Testament at that time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yes. So here, Mary's doing the same thing.
Speaker 0 00:19:16 She says, yes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so she mediates the one mediator to us. Ah, mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's all about a participation, which our lady does uniquely, but, but critically important, Michael, we all have to do, we all have to participate. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we all have to make up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ. Colossians 1 24, we are called to suffer too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, it doesn't take us too much time to figure out our three major crosses, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, maybe 30 seconds. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what your three major crosses we're called to offer those too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> we're, we're called to patiently endure them, too. We're called to Coem with our lady as a coem, Trix St. Uh, maximum. Colby said, anytime you pray for anyone, you're a tertiary mediator in Christ Jesus. The one mediator. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Marys the pediatrics. We mediate for each other all the time. So Meite and Greek literally means a go between. Mm. But see, we get a physical idea, like, okay, if, if we're gonna mediate, you know, uh, someone between us, that means we gotta push back. That's physical mediation. Spiritual mediation's the opposite. It means reconciling to without any distancing at all. It is a, it's a complete union of hearts through the intercession of the mediator. That's what the mother does for us, and the heart of Jesus and our hearts.
Speaker 2 00:20:35 That's so helpful, the way you describe it in terms of participation. And it reminds me of a line from CS Lewis's, screw tape letters letter 18. Uh, one of my favorites, he kind of begins to articulate, kind of, but he does a little bit of marriage, the trinity, the theology of the body. He does a little bit of everything in letter 18, but one of the things he says there, he says, the whole philosophy of hell me, is that to be means to be in competition. Hmm. Yeah. And you can see this at the level of pride, uh, which is competitive, essentially. But then even in a way, in our kind of modern mindset where we are very much focused on kind of studying the empirical world that we can measure and touch, and in the, you know, empirical world, in the world of kind of scientific, observable causes often, well, if it's one thing, it's not another, you know, so things are in competition, but on a personal level, on a human level, they're not.
Speaker 2 00:21:31 Mm-hmm. But it's very hard for us to see that. So once we begin to see that the, uh, and, and it's interesting, Lewis, when he writes that to be means to be in competition as the whole philosophy of hell, he's inversely quoting as You wouldn't be surprised, Dante. Yeah. Uh, who in the, uh, Paradiso, uh, says that in here in heaven to be means to be in love. Hmm. Right. And right. It's like a family doesn't have less love when there's a wedding and another person becomes a member of the family. A family doesn't have less love when a child is born. Just the opposite. Actually, another child is born, the family has more love. Uh, and so in that sense, right. We don't have less love because of Mary's love, but we have more love. I learn, I love that John Paul II in his, I think it's like, I can't remember the exact title, but it's the one that came out around, I think, around 2000 on Mary in the Mystery of the Rosary. Oh, yeah,
Speaker 0 00:22:36 Yeah. The Rosas, uh, Virgin Maria.
Speaker 2 00:22:38 Yes. Yes. Yeah. So the Rosary of the Virgin Mary, and he says basically that it's like, what we do is we kind of try to see Jesus, not just with our own eyes, but we try to see Jesus with Mary's eyes. And if we think about that on a human level, most of the things we love were introduced to us by another person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And they began to share it. And so, when I see how much Mary loves Jesus, I don't love Jesus less. Right. I, I learned to say, wow, help me to love Jesus the way you do.
Speaker 0 00:23:06 Right? Yeah. Beautiful. I mean, uh, uh, imagine if your best friend was coming to town and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you'd say, oh, uh, you know, my mom's gonna be coming in. Would you like to meet her? And, and, and you responded, you know, actually, I'd prefer not to do that because I'm afraid, I'm afraid that my love of your mom will be in competition with you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, he'd say, you know, you better get some treatment for that <laugh>. That that's a, that's a little abnormal, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, you know, there's this beautiful old, uh, maxim, you know, the anima, Christiana na Mariana, right? The, the Christian soul is naturally Marian. It's natural that you're gonna love the mother of your savior. I, I remember. That's beautifully put. Yeah. I, I remember, uh, uh, uh, it was a Catholic convert, in fact.
Speaker 0 00:23:50 But they grew up in a Pentecostal church. And in this particular case said that, she said, when I was a kid, the pastor was a just a happy, delightful guy, except when the Bible passage came to Mary. Mm. And he got angry and frustrated, and she said, you know, I didn't exactly know who Mary was, but I knew she was a bad person. And so, you see how, and of course, that's not, you know, universal among our, our brothers and sisters. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> not Catholic, but it, it, it sees how the, the, the default, the disposition, the co naturality is to love the mother of someone you love. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so you, you, you wanna naturally love the mother of Jesus, not see her as a mm-hmm. <affirmative> competition. That would be, again, uh, more of an infernal idea rather than a celestial covenant idea.
Speaker 2 00:24:36 And this language about to be, is to be in love and participation and the cooperation, uh, it does spill over into devotion, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it makes it very, uh, it's, it's easier. But I think it's also important that when we're talking about this, we're actually talking about this is a theological reality that we need to accept as true, or we remain, um, unwittingly in the philosophy of hell, which is to see everything in competition with one another. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that this is actually just objectively the case. Yeah. That if creation has in Mary cooperated with the redemption, right, of course, by God's grace mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, and, and by the, you know, the merits, uh, communicated through the incarnation, death and resurrection and ascension, and sending of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, right. That if that doesn't happen in Mary, then in a way, creation becomes, is still kind of in its cursed state. And we remain in a cursed state, which means we don't truly become children of God. Right. Right. And, and that's where, you know, first John three, one where it says, you know, um, you know, a beloved, um, you know, we have been called children of God, and, uh, so we are mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so ironically, in a way, if Mary can't be, it's only because we see Mary theologically is mother, that we can properly be said in our creative state to become children of God.
Speaker 0 00:26:14 Right. And, and there's always the challenge, and especially in our profession, Michael mm-hmm. <affirmative> with theology, uh, it, it, it's got to go from head to heart. Yes. Right?
Speaker 2 00:26:23 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:26:23 If it stops at the head, and this is a rather startling statement by St. Max and Colby, he said, who, who's the greatest theologian of all times in terms of knowledge? He says, Satan.
Speaker 0 00:26:35 Hmm. In terms of pure knowledge, Satan knew it all. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, look where it got him. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it can't be knowledge without charity. It can't be the head without the heart. And that's why everything we, we speak of the mother, uh, as part of Revelation, has to enter the heart in terms of love. And, and I say, you know, for those who perhaps say, look, I wanna love Mary, but I don't love her. I just, I don't have a relationship, uh, there should be patience. Right. Because love is an act of the will. That means there's choice involved. It's not just a deduction. So if, if one is saying, look, I wish I did love her more, I, I, I accept what you're saying, but it hasn't dropped, you know, come, come down into the heart, then I think you gotta hit the beats.
Speaker 0 00:27:24 Then, then I would direct people to the rosary, because the rosary is a meditation based on truth. I mean, Paul, the six St. Paul, the six says it's a cradle. It it's a creed. The rosary's a living creed, because you have the 15, now, the 20 greatest elements that summarize the New Testament, I mean, try to do your own summary of the New Testament and not include those 20, it's not gonna happen mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's pondering it with love. And that has a transformative value. I mean, we pray the rosary history has changed. I mean, it's not just beads for, you know, uh, little widows in the corner. It has the power to change the course of human history. And I believe it has, but it certainly has the power to change our hearts. And, and that's why, especially during the month of May, what a beautiful time to either initiate the practice of praying the rosary mm-hmm. <affirmative>, or to restore it, you know, uh, sometimes we, we let off on certain devotions we think are important, we get busy, et cetera. You know, legitimate concerns. The Mother's month is a great time to get back to the beads, to, to, to return us to the rosary.
Speaker 2 00:28:32 Well, that's excellent. Uh, mark, and let, we'll take a break and then let's come back and kind of dive in a little bit more into how the theology, uh, informs the devotion, and maybe the devotion helps to, uh, inform theology. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
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Speaker 2 00:29:19 Welcome back to the Catholic Theology Show. Today we are joined by Professor Mark Mira, and we've been talking about Maryology, the theology of Mary, uh, especially, uh, trying to rediscover both the kind of intellectual and also, um, devotional aspect of Mary's motherhood, right. And how this is actually part of God's plan for renewing creation in Jesus Christ. Uh, so thanks again for being on our show.
Speaker 0 00:29:52 My pleasure. Michael.
Speaker 2 00:29:54 You know, I think, uh, many people have probably, uh, at least I know a lot of our students and other people have heard many of your, you know, talks on Mary, you've, you know, lectured internationally on Mary, uh, and so many different things. Would you maybe just tell us a little bit about how did you get interested in Right. Devoting your, you know, your theological career to kind of helping people understand and appreciate, uh, this aspect of theology, right. Of, of the theology of Mary? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:30:25 I, I, there's not too much drama mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the process. Okay. But it was kind of an ongoing, uh, kind of a journey of, um, just, you know, having a devotion to our lady, but nothing I would say was extraordinary. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and, and then, um, when I did my studies at the Angelic overseas, uh, I was doing a writing for National Catholic registers, individual articles. And the Fatima message, uh, was very strong. It, it had this combination of what I would call a peaceful urgency to it that, um, you know, these, these prophecies that happened that we, you know, we could have avoided a second world war, uh, various nations, uh, to be annihilated, which still has not technically happened. We've had nations change their borders, but not annihilation. And, and ultimately that God, after you know, that God, you know, wishes to establish devotion in my immaculate heart, our lady says that right after she gives, you know, three little kids a vision of hell mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:31:22 <affirmative>, well, that's rather dramatic. Why would, why would our lady scare, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> a seven, eight, and 10 year old with a vision of hell, because we need to hear it. And, and so when she said, God wishes to establish devotion to my immaculate heart, this is not a Marion ego trip. Right. This is not the mother trying to ecclesiastically ladder climb. This is fulfilling God's mission to bring peace to the world. So that, that struck me, uh, you know, strongly. And, uh, then I ended up, uh, doing a doctoral dissertation on Meja Gore. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, at a, at an early time. And, uh, I remember Father Jordan Alman, uh, who was a well-known theologian, he was my director and saying, look, I don't know. This is a, you know, this is not yet an approved apparition. Can you do this? He said, well, if, you know, if you bring in lords in Fatima and, and the fathers of the church and the second Vatican Council.
Speaker 0 00:32:12 So that's kind of the direction I went. And then it came to a, a, a, you know, a point, which we've all had to do right. With our theological careers, where do we think perhaps we could serve best? And, and for me, it was a, a sense of general theology, and, and there was a, you know, a, a request for, you know, national speaking on wonderful topic like the Eucharist and Trinity and things like that. Yeah. Or focusing more on our lady. And I just felt it was, uh, my particular call to try to focus on the mother, because I found that, um, if people get the mother right, they'll get Jesus, right. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and they'll get the church. Right. And if they don't have the mother, right, there will be a weak Christology, and there could be a very dubious ecclesiology. So, uh, that, that was, you know, the direction that I felt called, uh, to, to enter, uh, both in terms of theologically, but also in terms of kind of what our lady is saying in terms of the signs of the times and, and, and, and the remedy. You know, I, I don't think that our lady is just, you know, a statue in the corner. I mean, she certainly is represents in that sense, and that's fine candles, but I believe she is the remedy, uh, not just something we do after we discover the remedy. I think she is the answer, because God's given her that role, uh, in our critical times.
Speaker 2 00:33:30 Yeah. And, and I love the way that you, you connect that when we have that kind of proper understanding of Mary's role, uh, it helps us to understand the uniqueness of Jesus and the uniqueness of the church. Right. That these in a way go together. It reminds me, I think, uh, you, you might know the story better than I do, but, uh, Fulton Sheen would one time tell the story of the, uh, I think, uh, anyway, a doctor was visiting a young boy who was in a hospital in the Catholic hospital, and on the wall it had a picture of Mary. And, uh, anyway, the doctor said, um, you know, like, what's that picture? And, uh, the boy said, well, that's the blessed Virgin Mary. And he said, you know, look, there's no difference between, uh, the mother of Jesus and my mother. And, uh, the boy, uh, looked back at him and said, well, you know, you might be right, but there sure is a difference in the sons <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:34:21 So it's like, once we begin to really think about who Jesus Christ is as the God man, the son of God who became the Son of man, so that the sons of men and daughters of men might become Right. The sons and daughters of God. Yeah. That when we discover that, then it's, you know, then, then it's a kind of affirm that as the church did in Ephesus in 4 31, that Mary is the mother of God. Right. Not because she's divine, but because she was the, she gave birth in time to Jesus Christ. Yeah. Who is God and man, who is the per who is Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, in whom now has been assumed a human nature. I think we see over time as that when we, when we become shy of Mary in the church, we become shy of Jesus.
Speaker 0 00:35:12 Yeah. Michael, it is. It's so very, very true. And, you know, even card Ratzinger talked about the, the decade without Mary mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the seventies. Yeah. Not, not because of the council, but because of interpretations of the Council mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there was this new idea that no, uh, we, we gotta pull back all that Marion stuff because it's gonna take away from Jesus. And the Eucharist take away from liturgy. And, uh, as Colonel Ratzinger Well said, it so hindered mm-hmm. <affirmative> love of Jesus in the Eucharist. Yeah. And, and so hindered a proper appreciation of liturgy because she is our example of how we receive mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, the mass, because she was at the first mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, event of Calvary. Right. She's, she's there. And, and even as you were talking too about, you know, the, the theotokos, the, uh, the mother of God, we could go on endlessly about the intimacy between mother and son mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:36:10 And realizing that her son is divine. So it's, it's like, you know, sometimes pious and, and, and appropriately will take five minutes after we receive holy communion, because Jesus is innocent. We're, we're a tabernacle. Right. <affirmative>, they're in a, in a, in a special eucharistic way. Well, that was the situation for Mary for nine months. She had Jesus in her for nine months when you start immaculately conceived mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then you have nine months of Jesus in you. That's why the theologians have a tough time to talk about her degree of sanctity at the end of her earthly life. Uh, they talk about her initial fullness of grace, and then her maximum fullness of grace. So the intimacy between Jesus and, and the mother is extraordinary, but it's supposed to spill over to us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're supposed to see that when, when the Trinity's in our hearts, we're tabernacles too. When we receive Jesus, we're tabernacles too. There's a sanctity of our bodies, uh, that has to be respected because we have Jesus in us. So it's never isolated. It's never the mother. That's why Deford says, you know, who's aug, I believe the most enthusiastic. Right. He says, without Jesus, Mary's less than an Adam. She's nothing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Uhhuh. So, but with Jesus, now, now we have something to honor. She, she is the human, racist, solitary boat.
Speaker 2 00:37:35 And it's interesting, if you think about the creed, uh, say the apostles creed or the sine creed, uh, version of it that we say at the, every Sunday, a mass or, or the, you know, the apostles creed into which we're baptized, uh, it does write that is, you know, uh, you know, conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. Right. You know, it's like, that's very significant. And then also into the communion of saints. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it'd be strange if the communion of saints didn't include Jesus Christ and didn't include Mary. Right. So staggering. So in a way, when we begin to exclude Mary, we begin to exclude the communion of saints, which means we're back within the competitive worldview. Right. And we're alone. Right. Uh, and we're indiv. And this is the idea of, of kind of this individualistic understanding of salvation, which either is present in the church at times, really kind of erroneously or in the culture or the individualism that then falls into a kind of, of collectivism.
Speaker 2 00:38:36 You don't really see the dignity of each person. So, because that, but I think that communion of saints is really where we're recognized that it's like we're, we are being drawn into ultimately the communion of the Holy Trinity mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, because of its extension in Jesus Christ. And then again, if it's like, if it hasn't included Mary, then it won't include me. Right. Right. Yep. Um, and so I think, you know, maybe could you say a word? Now you've, you know, again, I mean, you've, you've lectured, uh, and given talks, you know, countless times you've spoken to so many audiences and so many of our students are, are there a couple questions that you tend to get from Catholics who maybe kind of are, you know, they, they, they, they know something, they know the Hail Mary, they know something, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, either the theology or the devotion just has not, you know, it, it has, hasn't yet kind of caught on. You know, maybe they say the words. What would you, what do you hear from them? And then how do you answer those questions? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:39:36 Well, let me just bring up two cases if I can't. One is the fact that as we are less catechized as a church, uh, there's a little bit more of a Protestant disposition of saying Jesus Christ is the only meat eater. Jesus Christ is the only redeemer. But that only is without any concept of how we have to cooperate and participate. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that's concerning. Right. Because again, you quoted a Gus and you know, God creates us without us, but he, it was his will, not to save us without us. Human cooperation with grace is the foundation of the church. When that goes, guess what also goes the church mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Because then if I'm just saved Michael, and you're just saved, then we can have a certain, you know, comradery cuz we're both saved, but we don't have church mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we don't have the need for a sacramental life.
Speaker 0 00:40:32 It's already done and over mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I see that seeping into some less catechized Catholics that they've gotta remember. Oh no. We have to actively and freely cooperate with grace Yeah. To obtain salvation. And it's not like a potted plant that you, you know, watered 20 years ago and expected to be still alive. It'll be dead if you haven't watered in 20 years. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, our faith has to continue to be nourished. And, and, and once again, that goes back to our ladies' cooperation as an example of our need mm-hmm. <affirmative> to cooperate. So I, I see kind of a, a bit of a, a ization, if you will mm-hmm. <affirmative> of thinking it's happened, I'm saved. It's Jesus Christ mm-hmm. <affirmative> without the critical, I mean, it's rather radical how much God the father wants us involved. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So we talk about being pro-life. Right. Or co-creating, and we're okay with that. But what about cos sanctifying with the spirit. Mm-hmm. Uh, what about co redeeming with the son? These are things we have to do. And so very, basically, it's to remember that the mother's Yes. Is a, uh, an imperative for all of us to continue. And so that's why if you deny Mary's participation mm-hmm. <affirmative> you as you're, you're denying art. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:41:53 So the kind of that idea of like, when Jesus take up your cross and follow me in a way, Mary is the first one who takes up her cross and follows Right. Jesus. Right. In the seven devotion. So Right. Right. In that sense, salvation is an absolutely free gift, but we do have to receive it. Right. Right. You know, we can, it's, it wouldn't make, God's not gonna do it against our will. No.
Speaker 0 00:42:13 Right.
Speaker 2 00:42:14 Right. Uh, he somehow our our will needs to be healed to cooperate by grace. But, but, but we do genuinely cooperate our lives. I like CS Lewis and Mayor Christianity at one point just says, it's not a toy world. It's not a toy world. It's not like, it's not like we're, we're faking it and God's just moving us around like puppets. Right. Which
Speaker 0 00:42:34 Is why we get punished. Right. Yeah. When we don't do it Right. Because Yeah. That's part of our ding di of our freedom too. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:42:40 And we get healed by mercy. Mercy fills it up in us, so we begin to learn a little bit how to love better. Right. Right. Uh, not that we ever get to the point in which we do not need. Right. God's mercy and God's forgiveness, but God's mercy and forgiveness is transformative. Right.
Speaker 0 00:42:57 And the second question mm-hmm. Is typically about marrying consecration. Oh. So even faithful who are there will say, I, I just don't get this about giving myself to Mary. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I have a great relationship with Jesus. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, why would I have to give myself to Mary? And so, you know, you got the examples of the firsts and the St. Maximum Colbys, and the answer is essentially, again, this is a family mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's Jesus who says from Calvary at the, uh, as a gift of great price, behold your mother. That's not just an invitation. It, it's a type of theological statement. It's, it's etk, it's, it's behold, it's, it's uday. It's a, it's an action. Okay. Uh, statement. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so how do we best respond? What John Paul says, imitate John. What does John do? John takes Mary into his home, but in the Greek, there's no word for home.
Speaker 0 00:43:49 It's, it's into his own home is what we add to try to finish it, but it's better. Oh, we left it mm-hmm. <affirmative> so into my own means, into my interior life, into my spiritual life. Take Mary into my life as a mother I can trust. And when you take a good Jewish mother into your home, she's gonna clean up. Yeah. And she's gonna put things in order in a good way. So the consecration is a no-lose situation with consecration. You're basically saying, I want our ladies' full intercession as the pediatrics of all graces to keep me true to my baptismal promises. Yeah. And so if your concern is being true to baptismal promises, why would you not want the mother's full intercession? But going back to what you said, she's not gonna force herself anywhere. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so consecration is just saying to our lady, yes, I want the full power of your maternal intercession to keep me true to my baptismal promises to Jesus. So where's the loss?
Speaker 2 00:44:46 Yeah. And there's a Richard language today sometimes, and people who want to, uh, find friends that will help keep them accountable. Um, I mean, whether or not this is even just, you know, goals for exercising or something else mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. We kind of like this sort of element. We naturally want to put our goals in a somewhat public arena so that they're seen, but of course this can also just, you know, feed our pride and, and other elements. Uh, but in a way, what, what you're suggesting here is that this consecration to Mary, and it's fascinating because Right. John is alone among the 12 apostles who's at the foot of the cross. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's because he's somewhat with Mary, marry that he's with Jesus. And the rest of the apostles who boasted and said better things, I think it was Thomas said, let us go die with you.
Speaker 2 00:45:36 And, um, Peter says, uh, you know, they'll all deny you. I will not deny you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, they were like, in a way, it's an act of humility to recognize I can't do this on my own. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I not only need God's help, but I need the help of others. I need the help of the church. I need the help of friends, mentors, and Right. I need the help of the best mentor. Right. The best friend. And who would be that? Well, it would be Mary, right? Mary's the one that I could, would kinda ask Jesus, Jesus, whom do you want me to take into my own to be my mother? And of course, that doesn't mean we also don't take Peter as our shepherd. Right. So, right. Right. We have Mary as our mother, we have Peter as our shepherd. Right. Jesus is our Lord.
Speaker 2 00:46:23 Right. And, uh, this is that beautiful, uh, line. Right. You know, a Ku petro, uh, paria, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, to Jesus with Peter, through Mary. This is the wholeness. But I like that idea of saying, in a way to reject consecration, to direct, reject devotion to Mary is to kind of have that sense in which I'm actually falling back into the trap of Adam and Eve thinking that I can do it on my own, or that when I, um, when I sin Right. It's like Adam and Eve in a way, you know, if only they had simply said almost immediately throwing themselves at the mercy Right. Of God, we don't know. But there's a certain sense in which how, you know that, that that's really that sense in which I am on my own, too weak to even love Jesus as I ought. So Mary helped me love him. So maybe could you say, uh, just a, you know, for maybe people who are interested in considering consecration, what, like, what does that word even mean? We don't really even use it very often in, in contemporary English, right?
Speaker 0 00:47:23 Yeah. The, the Greek word is Ana Illinois. And, and the, um, the Latin word is consecrate. It, it really means to set aside for sacred use.
Speaker 2 00:47:32 Okay.
Speaker 0 00:47:33 And so when you're consecrating yourself, you, you're literally saying, I am setting myself aside to be true to my baptismal promises in any way our Lord wants me to mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I'm giving myself to our lady so she can do that. I mean, Pope Francis, who as you know, is, has a, has a real concern about ecumenical unis. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> very much. But he has, he has maybe five times now said the Christian without Mary is an orphan. Now that's a strong statement. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And what he's really trying to say is, Jesus wants you to have his mother. How do you know, because he's so, so at Calgary. Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's his ultimate gift. And so with giving ourselves to the mother, we're allowing her to intercede in way she can't do unless we've given her our fiat, ironically. Right. We have to say yes to her so she can fully say, you know, bring us to say yes to him.
Speaker 0 00:48:28 I mean, you know, Michael, it's fascinating. In the, in the seventh and eighth century, you had different forms of marrying consecration. You had ITOs of Toledo saying, I wanna be the handmade of the handmaid of the Lord. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And you have St. John Demaine saying, I consecrate to you mother of God, my mind, my heart, my soul, all that I am, that's eighth century consecration. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So these are not idolatries mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. This is part of the family. It's part of the covenant. What family would say, you know, you're gonna get dad upset if you love mom too much mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that would be dysfunctional. Yeah. Let's not bring dysfunction into the church. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:49:06 <affirmative>. Yeah. You know, and, and I, one of the things I think some of the consecrations also, when you read them and pray them and make them, you see very clearly that you're consecrating yourself to God, and in a way to God alone mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because God alone is the ultimate one. And then you're really just, when you consecrate yourself to Mary, you're saying, I'm gonna go through you to God. So again, it's this certain sense in which the world that God created has truly been created, and the world that God redeemed is truly real. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so when right. When God chooses Mary Mary's really chosen. Right. And therefore, I can rely on her as a creature, even though I'm in a way only relying on God. And it's just one little, uh, interesting thing is, uh, Thomas Aquinas when he talks about how Jesus sometimes has spoken of as the only begotten son of God, and at other times spoken of as the first born of many.
Speaker 2 00:49:54 And he says, well, he's the only one insofar as he's the only one who is the actual son of God. But on the other hand, he is the first born of many because God wants to make us all sons of God. And that's, so he says, scripture uses both to ex describe that. And I think in a lot of ways that shows to the same notion of, say, the only, you know, mediator as you were describing. Uh, so hopefully, so maybe if we can, as we start to kind of begin to, you know, close up this episode, uh, would you just say in, in very brief, I understand, you know, you teach whole course on this, you have written many books on these topics, but when a student remembers your class five years from now mm-hmm. You know, what's, what's one, uh, understanding in a way that you hope they would still have?
Speaker 0 00:50:38 Well, I, I, I would pray it would be at least two in heart. Yeah. One is they understand what the church means when they call our lady the Corid Emrex mm-hmm. <affirmative> that they understand that's not competitive, the hellish, but it's, it's participatory. But secondly, uh, that they're still praying the beads. Mm-hmm. That it doesn't just, it's not just a head thing if Yeah. If they're not praying the rosary, um, uh, I failed, uh, I missed the boat because the head stuff is for the heart stuff. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that's what's gonna bring them intimacy with Jesus. Yeah. Is pondering, you know, the the face of Jesus through Mary's heart. So that, that would be my
Speaker 2 00:51:18 Prayer. Yes. And it's interesting too, if you think about the rosary even, right? You have the Apostles creed into the faith of which we are baptized. You have the, our Father, which is Jesus' teaching, and the Hail Mary is really right. You know, first the angels gave greeting of, uh, Mary and then Elizabeth's mm-hmm. <affirmative> biblical recording of, right. Who am I that the mother of my Lord are, you know, are blessed, are you among women? And blessed is the fruit of your room, Jesus. And then, who am I that the mother of my Lord? And that shows up in, you know, holy Mary, mother of God. So it's really a biblical, biblical words and biblical, and even the glory be is of course, all over book of Revelation. What, what do, what do creatures, what were creatures meant to do. Simple to say glory be to the Holy Trinity. So, yeah. Amen. Uh, I wanna ask you three other just brief questions. So what's a book you're reading?
Speaker 0 00:52:04 Uh, I'm actually reading a manuscript that's gonna be published by a maus mm-hmm. <affirmative> Road Press. It's a, a woman who did her dissertation on, um, the, uh, events of our lady at the Second Vatican Council. And she's actually gone through for three years and, and, uh, given a translation to the audio tapes they had of many of the sessions mm-hmm. <affirmative> of the Theological Commission. And it's, it's fascinating, uh, of what was intended to counsel mm-hmm. <affirmative> and how John Paul II confirmed the appropriate spirit of Vatican two regarding our lady.
Speaker 2 00:52:35 Wow. That, that's, that's really sounds, uh, wonderful. Uh, secondly, uh, what's a spiritual practice, uh, that you do that helps you to draw closer to,
Speaker 0 00:52:45 Well, my default is adoration. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm just finding the older I get, the more adoration I need. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, I'm, you know, they said John Paul would make 18 to 24 visits a day. Now, of course, if you spent holy hours each time, he wouldn't have any time to be Pope, but just trying to not make it such a big thing. Thanks Peter, to God, we have access to, uh, you know, our eucharistic Jesus, but just, uh, more numerous, quicker, uh, trips to adoration. Mm-hmm. Daily.
Speaker 2 00:53:10 That's beautiful. Thank you. And finally, what's a, what's an understanding or belief, uh, that you held about God and his plan, uh, that you discovered to be really incorrect or false? Unhelpful. And what did you, what was the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:53:25 Well, I think, um, in the early days, just a little bit more emphasis on the justice and mm-hmm. <affirmative> now just how you, you have to, in, in words, we can't even express, uh, try to testify to the infinite mercy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's, it's, it's ubiquitous and it's all sustaining. And so one in doubt, always default to the mercy.
Speaker 2 00:53:48 Great. Well, well, thank you for that closing, uh, exhortation to remember and recall and deepen our appreciation of God's mercy. Thank you so much. Professor mayoral, mark Mayoral who, uh, holds the bloom chair of Maryology at Ave. Maria also teaches at Fcan University. For those who are interested, uh, this book Meet Your Mother, A brief introduction to Mary by Mark Mira, who's available from the Augustson Institute, Marion Press. And again, thank you so much for being on our show today. Real, real
Speaker 0 00:54:20 Pleasure. Thank you, Michael. Good bless.
Speaker 3 00:54:23 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
