Speaker 0 00:00:00 The one Thomas Moore is my response to the idea of multiple Thomas Moore's scholars creative writers. Biographers and historians divide up Moore's life character and writings. And these scholars did so because of a critical failure to see how humanist methodologies and religious ideas were really intertwined in the period. So instead of two Thomas Moore's, I try to demonstrate Moore's Unity of Thought or the one Thomas Moore.
Speaker 2 00:00:33 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Dr. Michael dk, and today I am pleased to have with me on the show Dr. Travis Kurt Wright, a colleague and friend who has been teaching at Ave Maria University, uh, for almost 20 years. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:52 Thank you, Michael. Happy to be here.
Speaker 2 00:00:54 Happy, uh, glad to have you here. Uh, for those who may not know, uh, Travis Kurt Wright serves as the Chair of Humanities and Liberal Studies. Uh, he's also the professor of humanities and literature. He's a beloved professor who also directs the well-known Shakespeare and performance productions. In his spare time, Dr. Kurt Wright also serves as the editor in chief of an academic journal dedicated to Thomas Moore and Renaissance studies called Mariana. I've asked Dr. Kurt Wright on the show today to help us learn more about a great, uh, saint within the church, St. Thomas Moore, and, uh, what we might learn from him as a model of holiness and a model of learning. Again, just welcome to the show. We're so pleased to have you here and, uh, so pleased that, uh, you've really dedicated your life, uh, to really the quest for wisdom, the quest for learning, and especially through these two great, uh, figures in, uh, Shakespeare, uh, and Thomas Moore. But maybe just to begin, uh, in, in kind of the simplest way, how can Thomas Moore be a model of holiness for Christians today?
Speaker 0 00:02:04 Well, great question. I take holiness to be the fullness of Christian life according to the perfection of charity, a living in with or for Jesus Christ. The Second Vatican Council teaches that everyone is called to holiness in any state or walk of life. How then did Thomas Moore as a layman lawyer and the king's good servant mm-hmm. <affirmative> apply his mind and actions his work and life to God? I think that formulating the question along those lines already suggests how more can be a model for laypeople in the pursuit of holiness Pope and now Saint John Pauli, in his promulgation of more has patron Saint of statesmen wrote that more was called to holiness by living a mixed life. What spiritual writings in the time of more defined in terms of a combination of contemplation and action, action and contemplation. The Pope emphasized this point by quoting from an exhortation on the mission of the lay faithful in the church and in the world.
Speaker 0 00:03:04 This is the passage the Pope used, quote, the unity of life, of the lay faithful is of greatest importance. Indeed, they must be sanctified in everyday professional and social life. Therefore, to respond to their vocation, lay faithfulness, see their daily activities as an occasion to join themselves to God, fulfill his will, serve other people and lead them to communion with God and Christ. Wow. So in church teaching more was not only heroic at his death, but also in how he lived combining contemplation with action. I think that's an important starting point. The fact that martyrdom alone does not make more outstanding, or that we shouldn't let his martyrdom distance us from him or turn him into a model that seems above and beyond our life's journey and daily concerns.
Speaker 2 00:03:59 Wow. That's, um, so powerful to see that idea, that unity of, uh, that he what was described there as a mixed life, but really the unity of contemplation of action in Thomas Moore across his life, uh, right. That was kind of, um, culminated in the, in his, you know, uh, famous martyrdom, uh, but was lived throughout. Um, can you say a word or two more about how this, the pope's John Paul II's idea of this unity of life was part of Moore's own understanding?
Speaker 0 00:04:32 Sure. Uh, what the Pope refers to as unity of life more would've encountered in Christian humanism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> when more Metar Erasmus, his famous friend and scholar Erasmus, was working on his anti barbery or his treaties against those who opposed so-called secular learning. There, the essence of what we now think of as Christian humanism stems from a quote from the Gospel of St. John 1232, which Erasmus cites and comments upon. Here it is, I if I be lifted up from the earth, Christ says, I will draw all unto me here it seems that he most aptly uses the word trak. I draw so that one, they understand that all things, whether hostile or heathen or in any other way far removed from him, must be drawn to him. That is to the service of Christ. That's what Rasmus road, and he used that word all in reference to sacred or rather secular literature, what we think of as knowledge of Greek and Latin or the classics.
Speaker 0 00:05:31 Rasmus own expertise in ancient languages helped him translate scripture and read the early church Fathers, of course, but the same gospel passage that Rasmus used would've fascinated Thomas Moore, just as it did St. Augustine before both more in Rasmus, Augustine explained in his own commentary on this passage, if by all things it is men that are to be understood, we can speak of all things that are for ordained to salvation and of all classes of men, both of every language, and of every age, and all diversities of talents and all the professions of lawful and useful arts. Now, here's the line that jumps out to me is all the professions of lawful and useful arts are for ordained to salvation, just as are all ages and all people, everyone in other words, might strive for or become holy in his or her work to offer up studying work is also how God draws all men to himself.
Speaker 0 00:06:33 Now, for more honest, professional, artistic or scholarly pursuits could be lifted up to God. For these labors are the means by which to borrow a line, if not an intentional pun from St. Paul, Christians will work out their salvation. Hmm. More himself, uh, wrote how penance, prayer, tribulation, and labor were all opportunities for us to conceive a delight and pleasure in such spiritual exercises. I think it's interesting that he calls these spiritual exercises, including labor, because he found them to be what he called opportunities to rise in the love of our Lord. If only every man will buy the quote labor of his mind and help of prayer approach his own life. I think, too that these ideas would've resonated with the culture of pre reform. London spiritual brotherhood, for example, was the first principle for the existence of some 75 trade guilds in London.
Speaker 0 00:07:29 Guilds were associations of artisans that would oversee crafts or trades in a particular area. The companies kept titles that sounded like religious con fraternities, such as the Guild of the Skinners of London to the honor of God and the precious body of our Lord Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or the fraternity of the Blessed Mary, the virgin of the mystery of the Drapers, or one of my favorites, the Merchant Taylors of the fraternity of John the Baptist individual wills provided for funeral masses or masses sung an annual remembrance of members to attend these masses. And the festivities that followed them were considered the first duties of Gilman, a mark of both faith and friendship. So I don't think that John Paul II's teaching, uh, would be very removed from Moore's own world, this thought, or the Catholic culture in which he was immersed. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:08:17 So this idea of the unity of life then is really founded on Christ who unifies our lives by drawing everything to himself.
Speaker 0 00:08:28 Precisely, yes.
Speaker 2 00:08:29 So in a way, could you say then that Thomas Moore was in the world, but not of it?
Speaker 0 00:08:34 Sure. In fact, uh, Augustine Moore's favorite early church father provided more with a new definition of the world and commentary upon the same passage that Erasmus singled out from John. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Augustin explains how the world did not refer to evil, because in the Bible also sometimes it stands for the good dispersed throughout the world. And here Augustine sights St. Paul's words, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, reconciling the world unto himself in more his own life than I think he found offices like those that he held to be opportunities to do good in the world for himself and for others. What we might think of as his professional work was always fueled by personal piety. Uh, here's a rasmus description of Moore's life after becoming a courtier quote, true piety finds him a practicing follower, though far removed from all superstition. He has his fixed hours at which he says his prayer, and they are not conventional, but come from the heart when he talks with friends about the life after death, he recognized that he is speaking from conviction and not without good hope. And more is like this even a court. What becomes then of those people who think that Christians are not to be found except in monasteries. Mm-hmm. We could ask the same question of all those who live outside of monasteries right now, and yet still strive to practice their faith. So I do think more can be a model or an inspiration to many lay people today, people who don't live in monasteries.
Speaker 2 00:10:16 Yeah. So you can see in more, uh, kind of this, uh, already lived, uh, anticipation of what Vatican two would later call the universal called a holiness as articulating and reminding the church of these realities that were already lived by holy men and women, especially in many ways, Thomas Moore, uh, in his age.
Speaker 0 00:10:38 Yeah. I think that's brilliant. The word anticipation. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:10:42 <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So tell us a little bit more about, you know, your own, uh, story, your own, uh, how did you get interested in Thomas Moore?
Speaker 0 00:10:51 I first studied more with Gerard Weer at the University of Dallas, and later became a research fellow at the Center for Thomas Moore studies. Dr. Wegener founded the center over 20 years ago with the mission to advance the study in teaching of Moore's life and writings with a special emphasis on Moore's understanding of law, liberty, and leading citizenship. The Center's annual conferences are great, and they stimulate research and new avenues into exploring Moore's thought every year. The recently published Essential works at Thomas Moore by Yale University Press. Um, the Concordances of Moore's Works are both amazing resources produced because of the center. So thanks to, uh, to Jerry and to the center for Thomas Moore studies. I've been studying more for many years now.
Speaker 2 00:11:35 That's, that's really, uh, beautifully, uh, put, and it's neat too that, uh, you, it's like first what you study, then you teach and do scholarship, and a, a Aquinas has a, a line one time where he says that the goal of every teacher is not to continue to teach his students, but to help his students eventually become teachers. Hmm. And so the way that you were first taught about Thomas Moore and then have in some ways, given your life, both the studying, but now teaching Thomas Moore to another generation is really kind of a powerful, powerful witness of that. Um, in, in terms of your scholarship, uh, you wrote a book about Thomas Moore called the one Thomas Moore. Right. Uh, it's a, it's a kind of a ca catchy, captivating title. Uh, tell us more about it.
Speaker 0 00:12:27 Well, the one, Thomas Moore is my response to the idea of multiple Thomas Moore's scholars creative writers. Biographers and historians divide up Moore's life character and writings, so worldly, modern biographies by people like William Roper or Nicholas Hartsfield. They presented more in terms of personal sanctity and as a defender of the church. These were written with the aims of izing England underneath Queen Mary's reign. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but became sources for later influential 20th century accounts of more by biographers like r w Chambers. In fact, Chambers' biography was so successful that Richard Mars's, later in 1986 biography sought to supplant it with the revisionist account of Moore's life based upon, in part, the studies of historian JR Elton Robert Boltz famous play A Man for all seasons followed chambers' biography, but Hillary Mantels Wolf Hall fictionalized Elton's work, and astonishingly turned Thomas Cromwell into the hero of the day.
Speaker 2 00:13:29 Wow.
Speaker 0 00:13:30 Moore was now the villain in her depiction of events. So, in the popular imagination and criticism, there are two Thomas Moores floating about the friend of a rasmus, or the persecutor of heretics the saint, or, uh, intolerant monster. The one Thomas Moore showed how scholars overstated the differences between Moore's so-called humanist phase, uh, 1504 to 1519 roughly, and that of his apologetic writings from 1520 to 1534. And that these scholars did so because of a critical failure to see how humanist methodologies and religious ideas were really intertwined in the period. So instead of two Thomas Moores, I try to demonstrate Moore's Unity of thought or the one Thomas Moore. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I do think the book helped to change the field. At least more scholars now have recognized how Elton and Mary's research was flawed or deeply partial. Uh, with that said, in my course on more, I have students read opposing points of view, different biographical accounts, and let them decide who Thomas Moore should be, uh, for each one of them.
Speaker 2 00:14:39 Wow. That's really, uh, that's a powerful work, and that's a, it's, it's interesting too that if we're going to see him as a model of holiness in the midst of the world, in the midst of worldly affairs and not shunning them, then something like, uh, you know, um, the, the debates within the church, uh, with, uh, Luther in Wright 15, you know, 19 15, 20 15, 21, it would be natural that he would engage in those. And so it's kind of also the fact that he was willing to turn, or, you know, to begin to engage different questions also showed that he was concerned with the affairs of his day. And I think, and again, that's kind of a beautiful image of the holiness of a saint and a scholar. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, uh, that's, um, you know, that's, that's a wonderful, um, uh, book. And by the way, uh, who, who publishes that book?
Speaker 0 00:15:29 Catholic University of America Press.
Speaker 2 00:15:31 Okay. And, um, if anyone wants to find it, they can always, uh, look up the one Thomas Moore by Travis Kurt Wright. It's Catholic University of America Press Now, uh, at Ave Maria, you teach an entire course on Thomas Moore. Um, tell us a little bit about it and how it fits into the humanities major.
Speaker 0 00:15:48 I'd be happy to, uh, the course Corson Moore examines his life and times and presents him as a model for humanities students. And here it might be helpful to your listeners to hear just a word or two about how the humanities are studied in our major, and we should remind, uh, people that you also teach in this program of studies.
Speaker 2 00:16:05 Yes. Yeah. Very happy <laugh>. Very happy to teach in the humanities and
Speaker 0 00:16:09 Very happy to have you teach in the humanities. And so, as you already know, our curriculum is based upon interdisciplinary study and combines courses in the great books or humanities seminars, as we call them, with deep dives and individual authors in addition to more, for example, students take, Michael doe's superb class on CS Lewis and Lewis might be another author we could think of as a Christian humanist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like Moore Lewis wrote in different genres including fiction, lit, literary criticism, uh, and apologetics. He's also an author that sharpens the mind and faith of those who read him. I think Moore does the same. He wrote poetry, a masterpiece of Political Theory in his utopia. Even a famous history of Richard iii, which became the basis of Shakespeare's play about the same. King Moore, of course, also wrote devotional literature. Both Lewis and Moore wrote across the disciplines.
Speaker 0 00:17:08 They were mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, humanists Lewis himself compared reading old books or great books to traveling to a foreign country. Only at the point when one transitions from a tourist mindset to that of a inhabitant could one, really share and enjoy the local food, drink, and culture that is only after studying a great book and it's period, can you come back to your own times thinking and feeling in new ways. This is the kind of transformative effect of great literature. And so the same principle of immersion, immersion in a different culture or in a different form place or in a different world, in a great book, I think that can be applied to reading Lewis or more, or great books in general. By steeping yourself and vanished authors and periods, you can receive a deeper insight into them. And of note, an ability to reexamine your own ways of living. Don't be a tourist of great books, but abide in their worlds, especially if you want to ponder the limitations of your own times or beliefs. And if I may, just to sharpen this point about reexamining our own lives by the study of the past, I recently saw an alum who talked to me about the Mor course, which I think he took in 2017 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and he remembered Moore's question, should one resolve ahead of time, whether or not one will die, rather than forsake the faith
Speaker 2 00:18:40 <laugh>. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:18:41 Yeah. That's powerful. This was, uh, from a text called The Dialogue, comfort Against Tribulation, written in 1534. Now, most of us, of course, have not probably considered the question because we simply haven't had to do so, or may even consider it presumptuous on our part to ask, but more thought all Christians should ask it, even if threats seem far away from us and highly unlikely to occur, he el alludes to the gospel passage where Christ said that every one of us must openly confess our faith and should do so, even when people take us or try to drive us through dread or fear to deny him, uh, more rights of Christ's teaching. This seems to me to imply in a way that we are bound to have the intention to die for Christ always conditionally, sometimes actually, and more and more habitually, that in such a situation we will, with God's help do so.
Speaker 0 00:19:37 I love that always conditionally, sometimes actually, and more and more habitually. And then here's the kicker quote. Thus, I very much consider it necessary for every man and every woman to be always of this mind and to think often of this matter of whether or not he or she will die for Christ and to do so while remembering the great pain and torment that Christ suffered for them. So, Moore's arguments is points of view. They make an impact on students of faith. Still, what alumni, the Moore course let me know is how Moore's faith from his own, what Lewis might call vanished world of Catholic England, remains a spiritually at a fineing place to visit.
Speaker 2 00:20:20 Yeah. That reminds me of Lewis's, uh, lecture he gave upon becoming chair, uh, at Cambridge in Medieval and Renaissance studies, uh, published later as data script on AUM or the, on the division of Times. But in there he says that in our own particular world of today, in which we have a major gap between us and the classical Christian West, that, uh, we have to, when we're reading older books, we have to often set aside many of our kind of spontaneous, uh, reactions, our spontaneous assumptions. Uh, and I love the way you put that, that when we kind of live with more for a semester, and we begin to not just visit him as a tourist, but begin to kind of inhabit his world, it, it, it really helps us to kind of see ourselves more deeply and then reflect upon maybe some of our own presumptions and figure out which ones are helpful, which ones are true. Uh, so it's really beautiful and, uh, that theme specifically about kind of, you know, remembering not just that we will die, but that are we willing to die for Christ. I mean, that's a, that's a challenging theme in some ways that we can learn from more when we, you know, spend time with him, become friends.
Speaker 0 00:21:38 Yes. I agree.
Speaker 2 00:21:38 Yeah. That's really now maybe how would you summarize two or three key themes that you want students to take away from the course?
Speaker 0 00:21:45 Uh, first the theme of integrity or the importance of conscience. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, no surprise there. Yeah. More viewed conscience as a function of good judgment and good judgment as a crucial objective. And a concomitant of liberal learning, CIA or conscience, literally denotes a knowing with knowledge requires relation not just to a subject matter, but also with respect to the self, a consciousness that I'm living as I know I should. And in this way, all education should be first and foremost for the sake of forming good conscience. And so, Moore's point about conscience naturally leads to a second theme of education. Moore himself was interested in what he called good learning, and even better character learning and virtue and personal piety were all tied together in his mind. Moore wrote to the tutor of his children that they should learn how to put virtue in the first place among goods and learning in the second, and in their studies to esteem most whatever may teach them piety towards God, charity to all, and modesty and Christian humility in themselves. These were what, uh, more called the real and genuine fruits of learning more ads that not all literary men attain these fruits, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, but argues that those who give themselves to study with such intent may attain this end for more, there's a sense of personal transformation that occurs with study. And I think we should probably mention in passing that this kind of humanism is precisely the cultural renewal and education that John Paul II called for. He said that universities too often reduce pedagogy to preparing students for a profession, but not for life.
Speaker 2 00:23:39 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, yes.
Speaker 0 00:23:41 Uh, prepare for life, though it's necessary to cultivate Del or the knowledge of man himself, what the Pope describes as man's history, his moral and civic responsibilities, and spiritual destiny. It's interesting to me that he speaks of education and study, like they're training and preparation for living well, living well in the real world, because this is a very morian point of view. The sense that education should make us better human beings, more discerning, diligent, and responsive to our times. And so, a third theme would probably be somewhat related, coming to know more as a teacher of prayer or an expert in interior life, because to be in the world, but not of it means praying about what kind of impact you'll make in the world and how you should do so. Moore's devotional literature is often neglected, but if you like his play of mind, uh, by which I mean the particular way, how he addresses spiritual questions, that's something that can be learned and imitated by studying his writings more wrote devotional literature in the vernacular with the aim of educating Londoners and their faith. So these writings are well worth our attention. I think
Speaker 2 00:24:56 That's, that's great. Um, we're gonna take a quick break. Sure. And then when we come back, let's talk more about some of those devotional works, uh, by Thomas Moore.
Speaker 0 00:25:05 Happy to do so.
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Speaker 2 00:25:39 So let's discuss briefly one of Thomas Moore's, uh, major spiritual writings, uh, the dialogue of Comfort against Tribulation. Right. How would you say this work kind of exemplifies Moore's play of mind? Um, how does it help us to learn from him as kind of an expert in the interior life?
Speaker 0 00:26:02 Excellent question. Moore's a dialogue of Comfort against Tribulation is a classic of prison and spiritual literature. Arrested in 1534, Moore wrote his dialogue while in the Tower of London. During that same year of interest, more defines tribulation as any interruption of wellbeing or prosperity, which he calls just another word for wellbeing, has such tribulation, is noth nothing other than some kind of grief. Either a bodily pain or some mental affliction. More goes on since tribulation is not only every such pain has pains the body, but also every trouble that grieves the mind. Many good persons have tribulations that not everyone knows about, and consequently, their wellbeing is interrupted without other people being aware of it. Hear more also includes the experience of temptation has a great inward trouble or a secret grief in a person's and a person's heart. Such a sense of tribulation already suggests the dialogue's.
Speaker 0 00:27:06 Usefulness more would urge us to consider all the interruptions and prosperity or wellbeing that are underway at this time, whether here in our hearts or abroad, and how those many good persons who suffer alone and unbeknownst to us with troubles that grieve our grieve, their minds. All of these challenge us to sort of expand our idea of tribulation, to include those who secretly suffer alongside us, or far away to those who suffer worse or less than we do, including those who struggle with anxiety, faults, sins, bad habits, dark moods, tribulations, abound, and call for compassion and prayers. Also have note on this point, Moore's dialogue can help us examine our own response to unexpected times of hardships, tribulations, test people's hearts more rights and makes them know how to know their own dispositions. Adversity reveals what a person truly cares about, in addition to staging aesthetical and internal conflicts of desire. So tribulations can be the means of transforming our interior natures by reordering our loves to God. Or conversely, tribulation will be the means of pulling us away from his grace.
Speaker 2 00:28:23 You know, it's, I don't know how to put, it's almost like shocking that Moore would be in the tower, um, having lost so many of his own, like all of his own kind of prosperity and wellbeing. Yes. And in a way, writes this right dialogue of comfort against tribulations, we might call difficulties, uh, is he's writing about saying kind of like, well be attentive to so many others who might be suffering difficulties. It's, uh, that it's not really just his own. He's not just writing about his own pain or his own experience, but he's really trying to, again, teach others and offer his own wisdom to others who are dealing with difficulties. It's just really a beautiful, uh, you know, image, uh, that he does. Uh, what do you, when, as, as he turns his attention to, in a way, continue to instruct, uh, so many who might be suffering and how so many today who are suffering difficulties, right? What, what do you think, what does he actually teach us about dealing with difficulties and, and how might some of his teachings Right, Fred, that he wrote from the tower in London apply to us today?
Speaker 0 00:29:37 Yeah. I really like your point about Moore's other regarding nature. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how he's in the tower, but he's thinking about how others are suffering. Keep in mind that this is the celebrated author of Utopia. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So he's famous. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he's known throughout Europe as a magnificent scholar and author. He was Lord Chancellor of England, the highest office in the land that, uh, yeah. Could attain to if you weren't royalty. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he's been shamed. He's been arrested, um, unfairly. He was wealthy and affluent, um, no longer. So even in his own family, there's misunderstandings. Why won't he take the oath? And so the tribulations, uh, were intense. And just to get back to your question, Moore explains the consequences of, uh, losing our nerve, or if you like, throughout the dialogue, he thinks of courage as a muscle that needs exercise. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> tribulations are also tests of faith.
Speaker 0 00:30:43 They may combine with fear to make us impatient with our lives. And this leads to what more calls a perverse state of mind that grows intractably, stubborn and angry towards God. Now, this must have been a temptation with which he Russell. Yeah. And he considers this attitude as a precursor to falling into blasphemous rebellion. Faintheartedness or fear also prevents people from doing many good things, which if they acquired a strong spirit by trusting in God's help, they would be able to do, those are his words, not mine. More goes on to say that the devil puts fearful thoughts into our imaginations, but we need to cast away what he calls those cowardly notions and images. And instead, ponder that man in the gospel who stored up his talent and left it unused and thereby utterly lost it. Fear was the reason why he didn't develop his talent.
Speaker 0 00:31:41 And some readers of bolt's play might think of courage as a kind of Christian grit or self-possession bolt himself referred to more as a person with an adamantine sense of self, but more didn't propose or think of himself as a person with an indo to bolt spirit. But as someone who needed to pray constantly to fulfill God's will. And especially so in trying times. And here again, the dialogues, recommendations about how to pray prove valuable. To get back to your question about how Moore could be a teacher of interior life. So here's how Thomas Moore patron, Saint of statesman recommends that we pray. He says that first we should find some secret solitary place. And there imagine that we are actually leaving this world and giving an account of our life to God. Either of these were particularly difficult for more in the tower as he awaited Henry's next move.
Speaker 0 00:32:35 But the need for silent self-examination time alone, and prayer was a lifelong practice for him in such times of prayer, more thought we should confess our sins. Confess our temptations, call to mind the benefits we have received, and give humble and heartfelt thanks for each individual blessing. This is what he's doing in the tower. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we should boldly pray for and not assume the salvation of our soul. And pray for an increase in faith, hope, charity, and every virtue that will serve towards getting us to heaven. I think it's fascinating that any virtue we shouldn't view as a function of economy or individuals struggle, as if it's something that we can acquire on our own. And this kind of simplicity of, Lord, may I have more faith, Lord, give me more hope. Lord, give me more charity more says, this is what we should be doing.
Speaker 0 00:33:33 Petitionary prayers shouldn't dictate the sorts of comforts we want to receive because, and here he says, so blind are we mortals so unaware of what will happen. So unsure even of what frame of mind we ourselves will be in tomorrow, that God could hardly do anything worse to us, then grant us in this world our own foolish wishes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> instead, those in search of comfort should pray for spiritual gifts, not things they want to enjoy, or situations they wish to avoid. And here we come to what I call Moore's play of mind. How he alters the substance of terms from a mundane to a supernatural point of view in prayer, more thought all tribulation could be re described and reimagined as what he calls a gracious gift from God, a gift that he specially gives his special friends more lists the reasons why we all should agree with him.
Speaker 0 00:34:28 Scripture, commends and praises, tribulation, uninterrupted prosperity can be dangerous to our salvation. If God doesn't send across, people will need to seek one out through penance. Tribulation can purchase from our past sins or preserve us from sins we otherwise would've committed. Adversity teaches us detachment from the world and incites us to draw closer to God. Trials can diminish our purgatorial pains or increase our reward in heaven. The way of the cross was the path of our savior and his disciples. And the thing with which no one can get into heaven if we remember these things more concludes, we shall not murmur or complain in a time of tribulation, but grow in goodness and even give thanks to God for our plight. And so this is a man for all seasons, that was also a man that was accepting of all tribulations, including things that were extraordinarily painful and difficult.
Speaker 2 00:35:30 Wow. That's, uh, it's, it's really just beautiful to hear him, uh, have gone through that experience with a sense of acceptance, uh, a awareness and, and kind of like broadening our perspective, not to just see our own what we're losing, but to kind of see ourselves within the context of all of God's providence. Right. Uh, that, that ultimately, you know, if, if, if our journey is, if we have a spiritual destiny, which is one of the things I think John Paul VII said at the beginning about recovering a sense of this, um, unity of life is remembering our spiritual destiny then mm-hmm. <affirmative> that's remembering that and then seeing how, uh, difficulties, uh, which, you know, are always going to be there one way or another, somehow can become a means of, you know, preparing us maybe sometimes even just to recognize our deep need of God's grace. Uh, St. Jose Maria Riva one time has a quote that I always remember, but he says, all our fortitude is on loan. Yeah. All our courage is on loan. And when we're in situations that really try us, you know, we need to beg for more. And right more, I think is kind of instructing us in that way of where we can recognize our true status as creatures. Right. That we are not self-sufficient creators.
Speaker 0 00:36:53 And Moore's writing this on a dialogue form in part to dialogue with himself. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and writing was the process by which he could move his mind towards accepting these tribulations by trying to bring a supernatural outlook to them. But the knowledge couldn't be just propositional, and then he would ascent to it. It's something he had to sift through by Wayne objections to the point of view of accepting God's progress.
Speaker 2 00:37:24 Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 0 00:37:24 That's what he's doing in his dialogue. It's striking to see
Speaker 2 00:37:26 It is that sense of, that in some ways he's educating himself here Yes. With his own learning. But education is not merely about, um, knowledge. It's about knowledge transformed into character as, as you mentioned earlier. So now Thomas Moore, uh, I think his last tower work was called The Sadness of Christ. Uh, how does this, um, maybe expand or develop or change some of the ideas and arguments that we saw in this earlier, um, tower work of the dialogue of comfort against tribulation?
Speaker 0 00:37:57 Moore wrote to his daughter, Margaret Moore Roper from the tower in May of 1535. My whole study should be upon the passion of Christ and my own passage out of this world. His trial was on July 1st, his execution on July 6th, and he died at the age of 58. The sadness of Christ is Moore's study upon the passion that he mentioned in his letter to Margaret. The book certainly resonates with his earlier dialogue in many ways, but now the points about prayer are stated in terms of staying awake, staying awake, hear more focuses on, on the sleeping apostles in Gethsemane, he contrasts the alert Judas, who was wide awake and intent upon betraying Christ with the apostles who were buried in sleep, even after the third time that their Lord returns to them, asking them to stay awake and pray more explains the gospel episode and expands it into an image of his own times, he writes, does not this contrast between the traitor and the apostles present us a clear and sharp image, a sad and terrible view of what has happened through the ages from those times even to our own. So more contrast, the sleepiness of the good and the energy of the evil, in part to reveal how sadness two is a tribulation that we must overcome in Moore's treatment. The apostles may experience sadness because they grieve for Christ, or because they're numbed and buried in what he calls destructive desires. But no matter the cause, sadness must be checked by the rule and guidance of reason.
Speaker 0 00:39:49 Otherwise, more warns sorrow. So grips the mind that it's strength is sapped and reason gives up more distills the point in Christ's admonition to stay awake and pray. We learn in these words claims more how prayer is not only useful, but also extremely necessary for without it, the weakness of the flesh holds back our mind and will despite our best desires. It's interesting that prayer here sharpens reason and checks passion, allowing our better selves an opportunity to act or for reason to rule in our actions because of God's graces. Otherwise, sadness is an ally of the enemy. Hmm. For more, we could also take comfort in the fact that our Lord experienced sadness, and so he can help us face our own fears, anxieties, and darker moments and moods, a dialogue of comfort against tribulation. It's interesting because more is going to be dialoguing with Christ and receiving comfort in Christ's words.
Speaker 0 00:40:59 But these are words that more rights on behalf of Christ. He mm-hmm. <affirmative>, fictionalize his Christ, he and visions Christ speaking to fearful souls. And this is what Christ says. It's a striking passage. And this is more writing in the voice of Christ. Oh, faint of heart. Take courage and do not despair. You are afraid, you are sad, you are stricken with weariness and dread of the torment with which you have been cruelly threatened. Trust me, I conquered the world, and yet I suffered immeasurably more from fear. I was sadder, more afflicted with wariness, more horrified at the prospect of such cruel suffering, drawing eagerly, nearer, and nearer. Let the brave man have his high spirited martyrs. Let him rejoice in imitating a thousand of them. But you, my timorous and feeble little sheep be content to have me alone is your shepherd. Follow my leadership. If you do not trust yourself, place your trust in me. See, I am walking ahead of you along this fearful road.
Speaker 2 00:42:27 Wow. That's really, that's, that's, that's beautiful. That's, uh, that's, that's really gripping to the way Thomas Moore could envision Christ, uh, speaking to him right out of his sadness to Moore's sadness. Right. And encourage him to trust in him.
Speaker 0 00:42:44 I agree. I think that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's more than a literary representation of Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, it's probably an echo of something that more received by a prayer. Um, after Morris condemned to die and before he was put to death, he wrote a devout prayer. And this is, this was the prayer that he wrote. Good Lord. Give me the grace in all my fear and agony, to have recourse to that great fear and wonderful agony. Wonderful agony that thou my sweet savior had at the Mount of Olives before the most bitter passion and in the meditation thereof, to conceive spiritual comfort and consolation profitable to my soul. And so you're exactly right. In the last prayer that more writes, he composes a personal reflection, not only upon his fate, but also upon his sadness of Christ. A text that manifests his own personal dialogue with Christ. It's personal, poignant and christological all at once a spiritual masterpiece.
Speaker 2 00:43:53 Wow. Um, now do you, are, are those books, uh, dialogue of Comfort and, uh, sadness of Christ, are they available for listeners?
Speaker 0 00:44:01 They are. And the sadness of Christ was originally written in Latin. Hmm. Um, but you can find an excellent English translation of it. And also a transliteration of a dialogue of comfort against tribulation, both from scepter books, scepter books. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:44:18 <affirmative>,
Speaker 0 00:44:18 Well, that, that's, and paperback too, I should say. Ooh,
Speaker 2 00:44:20 That's, that's excellent. Um, and, uh, what are suggestions kind of as we begin to kind of wrap up, uh, this episode? What are suggestions for listeners who'd like to learn more about, uh, Thomas Moore? Right. And perhaps as, as a model right. Of, of holiness and a model of study and learning and work and professional life,
Speaker 0 00:44:38 I encourage all listeners mm-hmm. <affirmative> to check out the center for Thomas Moore's studies website. It's Thomas Moore studies.org. The site includes timelines, historical documents from the period expansive digital library that includes early modern techs teaching resources and concordances to Morris works. There's also a section there, prayers. There's also the journal that you mentioned at the top, uh, Mona Thomas Moore Renaissance Studies. You can find
[email protected]. Eup publishing.com. This journal was founded in 1963 and publishes academic research about the period Moore's life and writings and Christian humanism. The archives are wonderful resources. Of course, there is Moore's Utopia and an excellent paperback edition and translation from Cambridge texts. And the history of political Thought is available, you can buy it on Amazon, edited by, uh, George Logan and Robert Adams. And then finally, I recommend Yale's recent essential works of Thomas Moore, edited by Gerard Weer and Steven Smith. It's the most recent and up to date and accessible, critical, uh, edition. A wonderful, wonderful resource.
Speaker 2 00:45:49 That's great. Well, um, Dr. Kurt Wright, uh, thank you so much for being on the show and for, uh, teaching me and teaching our, uh, readers so much about what you've learned and taught over the years about Thomas Moore, uh, Ray, who himself was such a great student and teacher. Not only Wright of the mind, uh, but of the heart and of that, uh, way to both live our faith in the midst of the world, uh, to seek that unity of life and to respond to the challenges of the day with courage that we really beg from God, uh, and to face our difficulties, um, with some comfort, right. Knowing that, uh, Christ has faced them as well and overcome them.
Speaker 0 00:46:34 Thank you,
Speaker 2 00:46:35 Michael. Great. Thank you so much Dr. Curray.
Speaker 3 00:46:38 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
