Speaker 0 00:00:00 Who God is eternally is holy. And what holiness is is the perfection of love. That is so, it's like a consuming fire, as we read in Hebrews 12. Whereas you are refined by the consuming fire of the Holy Spirit in order to enter heaven, the presence of God. It is life in the Trinity.
Speaker 2 00:00:26 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Dolphine, and today I am thrilled to be joined with, uh, Dr. Scott Hahn, uh, a beloved friend and mentor who is the president and founder of the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology, as well as the father Michael Scanlan, chair in Biblical theology at the Franciscan University of Steubenville. Welcome to the show. It's great
Speaker 0 00:00:51 To be with you, Michael.
Speaker 2 00:00:52 Great. Glad to have you here. And I'm so, uh, really excited today to dive into your most recent book. Holy, it's his name, the Transforming Power of God's Holiness in Scripture. And we actually organized a conference this year together, right, called The Holiness of God and the Mystery of the Eucharist. And partly that idea is that I think people are used to talking about God as love. Uh, people may even be familiar, right? God is merciful. Uh, but the idea that God is holy, uh, this seems to be maybe something that's kind of been lost from our lexicon, lost from our imagination almost. I think people might often be a little bit afraid to talk about God's holiness as though it might scare people away. And yet you've written such a beautiful book that when I read it, I, I read it as great invitation. Like, uh, that, that God's Holiness isn't something that repels us, it's something that attracts us. Uh, so anyway, so I just, I I really want to talk to you a little bit about the book and help you kind of help our listeners recover this sense of just the wonder and awesome mystery of God's Holiness. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:02:01 Thanks. Well, I mean, just three or four opening points. I, yes, I think people use holiness, especially if they're attending mass and they hear the holy, holy, holy. And all of the prayers are literally sprinkled throughout with the, the references to holy. And so it's, it's so familiar that you never really stop and ask yourself, well, what is its unique meaning? And that's what I want to do. Uh, on the other hand, you also have this, this general sense, I think most people have, that holiness is sort of synonymous with righteousness, that they're inter, interchangeable terms. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> when in fact they're not. We're gonna open it up for some conversation in just a few minutes to clarify.
Speaker 2 00:02:42 Yeah, I'll
Speaker 0 00:02:42 Take your time. Cause they are inseparable. But they're clearly distinct. And, you know, as Catholic theologians, we know that the pri one primary task of Catholic theology is to make distinctions, you know, one God, three persons, one person, Jesus, two natures, and so on. And so we wanna distinguish holiness from righteousness, you know. But this has been something that has been fascinating to me as I o as I describe it in the opening chapter, going back to the early seventies when I was mm-hmm. <affirmative> converted through young life. I was beginning to read the Bible and it was all about Jesus, and, you know, his being our Savior and Lord our friend and so on. And then I realized that, you know, Bon Huffer, Kaufer, discipleship, cheap Grace was a very accurate description, uh, for my own spiritual life getting started, but for a lot of other people who around me, you know, not only getting a scripture, but still getting high like I had been doing, but I had stopped and I'm like, okay, what do I do?
Speaker 0 00:03:39 And when I went to churches in the area, it was always love, love, love. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I mean, it was sort of a, a hippie hangover as I describe it here, <laugh>. Yes, yes. Um, peace, love, Woodstock and all of that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But the fact is, you know, I was fortunate to be able to sit under the tutelage of Professor RC Sp, who was literally just getting off the ground, the Lider Valley Study Center, less than an hour from where I lived in this whole series of books. He ended up publishing over a hundred books, arguably the most influential reformed Protestant theologian in America in the last half century. And he was just getting started on a book that later came out called The Holiness of God. And he introduced us most of the, you, the attendees were adults. I was the only high school kid going week after week.
Speaker 0 00:04:22 Yeah. But he introduced us to Rudolph Otto's classic work, the idea of the Holy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and the notion of the Mysterium tremendum at Faan, that when people encounter the living God, it is a mystery such as the burning bush. But it's a mysterium tremendum. It causes you to tremble, to turn away, to take off your shoes, because the ground that you stand on is holy. And even to kind of quake with a fear that is meant to be well, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And yet it's also simultaneously fascinating enthralling. You wanna look away, but you want to catch another glimpse, you know, the holiness of God. And the more I, I thought about it, the more it struck me that this is a very accurate description for the human response to the holiness of God. But it wasn't an accurate definition of what holiness is within God himself.
Speaker 0 00:05:12 And so how we respond and how we describe our experience is one thing, but what is the holiness of God? And, and, and, and pri helped us to get to the point where we realized that we've got to approach God with reverence, with awe. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he's transcendent, he's holy, other, he's set apart from all creatures, so that the highest serafim is more like a rock than he is really like God, you know? Yes. And that sort of thing. Yes. And yet, when he was defining holiness, it became, as I mentioned a moment ago, practically synonymous and interchangeable with righteousness. And I knew enough Greek in college, and I got Hebrew in grad school mm-hmm. <affirmative>, where I'm like, they're not the same. You know, uh, righteousness is what is administered by the king and the, the law courts. Holiness is the realm of the priesthood in the temple.
Speaker 0 00:06:01 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, holy, holy, holy. The vision that Isaiah has is in this heavenly temple, and it, it significantly, it's in the year that King Isaiah died. Now, most people think of that first verse as a sort of just an opening line, but by the time the sif himer shouting, holy, holy, holy, covering their faces, and Isaiah says, whoa is me, for my, you know, he's seen the Lord, but he knows himself to be a man of uncleanness. And he discovers the true king was not siah, but the Lord God. And then he confesses his uncleanness. And so the angel takes the, the coal from the altar of incense and touches his lips to it to cleanse him from this uncleanness. And I discovered that the background for that is really the year that King Uzziah died in second Chronicles 26. The king has reigned for nearly 50 years, the most prosperous, successful king.
Speaker 0 00:06:54 And he's just gotten too big for his britches. I mean, we'd never had politicians <laugh> fall into excessive pride, but he leaves the palace. And second Chronicles 36 describes how he just took a stroll into the temple. He was allowed there, he was welcome. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but he kept going into the sacred precinct, which was off limits for anybody, but the ironic priests. And as Oriah, the other priest are like, stop, don't go any further until he just keeps going up to the altar of incense in the earthly temple to offer incense. Only when he turns around leprosy has popped onto his forehead, where the high priest had on his forehead in the turbine, holy to the Lord, he has visible uncleanness. So they drag him out, and he ends up dying in a kind of makeshift royal leper colony. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so when Isaiah says, in the year that King Isaiah died, I saw the Lord in the temple of heaven high.
Speaker 0 00:07:46 You know, it's like you don't want to confuse righteousness, which is the province of the king and the palace and the court, and then holiness, which is the province of the priest and the temple, you know? And King Saul had done that earlier with fatal consequences in first Samuel Za had done that, reaching out and touching the arc of the covenant. So holiness is something that is still scary, but at the same time, it is, well, as St. Thomas would say, it's the perfection of love. And so I realized in pursuing this project, this is not going to be a kind of one year book. It ended up being three to five years of research, and then more research, and then more clarification, a few more distinctions. And suddenly it kind of unfolded before my eyes in a way that I should have seen, but never did.
Speaker 0 00:08:32 You know. So that I point out in Genesis, holiness occurs, the term COEs occurs one time in 50 chapters, and only in the second chapter where God sanctifies the seventh day, the Sabbath, as the sign of this covenant with all of creation. But then after the catastrophic consequences of our first Father's fall, it's not used another time. I mean, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Noah. They're described as righteous, upright, faithful, and all of that, but never holy. And so it's like, okay, one time in 50 chapters. And then in Exodus, I do a word study and variance of Kadesh holiness occur nearly a hundred times in just 40 chapters. And so I call it the Exodus explosion, the holiness explosion. And you discover, wow, there's the holy tent, the holy ground, the holy investments, the holy alter, the arc of the covenant. All of these things are called holy.
Speaker 0 00:09:25 And yet, Israel is not called holy. They're called to be holy. And of course, Moses, as if you hear my voice, and if you keep my covenant, then you'll be a holy nation. But that's a big if then. And of course, they don't hear his voice, they don't worship him, they worship the golden calf. And so we're kind of off to the races in search of a holiness that had been forfeited in a way that was invisible, but sort of catastrophic. And I, looking at commentaries, and everybody sees holiness, but it was an Orthodox rabbi, a friend of mine, uh, rabbi Joshua Berman, who just states in his discussion of the temple that all of these things are holy, the holy land, the holy city, you know, the holy temple, the holy of Holies, but nobody's ever called a saint in the Hebrew Bible. I'm like, seriously?
Speaker 0 00:10:13 You know? And I'm like, that is, you know, sort of like Sherlock Holmes, the dog that doesn't bark. You know, it's like that is a loud silence that really could be the key to understanding how the new fulfills the old, but in a way that exceeded our highest topes. And, and, and I won't go into it anymore than that, but just to say that once you discover the sequence of events, you realize the only exception to the rule, uh, in the Hebrew Bible is actually not really an exception. Because in Daniel seven, in his vision of the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, to the ancient of days, obviously the ascension, what we have is the son of man turning around and after getting this divine kingdom that is universal and everlasting, he gives it to the saints of the most high.
Speaker 0 00:10:58 Ah-huh. We have saints in the Old Testament, but okay, they're not named, but it's not really an Old Testament. It's a vision of the Son of man fulfilling the old, establishing the new and releasing this flood of the Holy Spirit, the living water. And it's once again, you're like, oh, in Isaiah six, holy, holy, holy. It's not mercy, mercy, mercy. It's not love, love, love. Much less tolerance. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then in Revelation four, the vision of John of heaven switches because holy, holy, holy is sung by the angels, but also by the saints, the elders, and the martyrs. And it was like, once again, a kind of lamb supper, eureka moment where in the Old Testament, heaven is populated by angels exclusively. And then in a New Testament, the population has changed. It's been repopulated with the saints as well as the elders and the martyrs and the, the mother of God.
Speaker 0 00:11:54 And where does it all hinge? Well, the dissent into Hades, and then when he is resurrected Matthew 27, verse 50 through 53, where in the subsequent weeks, all of these tombs of all of the saints of the, you know, most high or the souls of the faithful department in the Old Testament, they come out of their tombs and they're seen for a while, but then they're gone. Where do they go? Well, as Paul describes Jesus' ascension is taking into heaven. He takes captivity captive. He basically repopulates heaven. And then we have this cloud of witnesses that we read about in Hebrews. And I just don't think we appreciate what God the Father did through his son when they sent the Holy Spirit. I mean, we profess it, I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic church, the communion of what saints, and not just righteous citizens who form a commonwealth, but saints who enter into the commonwealth of heaven.
Speaker 0 00:12:49 At that point, I think my brain was exploding. My, my heart was certainly ignited. But it was one of those things where you don't notice it because it's sort of hiding, but in plain view. And then once you do, you can't help but see it. And you look around at people who are much smarter than I am, and I'm like, you don't see that. You know, come on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, and, and, and you know, it gets back, I think to the practical too, and this is the last point I wanna make. That is when Jesus says, um, the greatest commandment is to love the Lord of your God with all of your heart, soul, and strength. And the second is like it to love your neighbor as yourself. He's quoting Deuteronomy six, five, and then Leviticus 1918, only Christians realize that the two greatest commandments were already in embedded in the Mosaic Torah.
Speaker 0 00:13:30 Yes. And then he adds on these two, hang all of the law in the prophets. And so not all commandments are created equal. These two are greater than any other. And as I was telling you, when we were walking over to the studio, yes. Even after I wrote the book mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I began to see, wait a second, you know, the first table of the law where you have the first three commandments, have no other gods before. Don't take his name in vain, but remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. It's the only time holiness occurs in the decalogue. And it's only in that commandment. And so the, the first table has three, but that's longer than the last seven. But this has to do with loving the Lord your God, all of your hearts soul and strain. Whereas the last seven, honor your father and mother.
Speaker 0 00:14:14 It's more horizontal than vertical. It's more human than divine. This is righteousness, as it were. And again, we're not separating these two, we're just distinguishing to show, show how they're united. But you know, in Romans 12, you know, present your bodies as a living sacrifice, which is wholly unacceptable to God. Whereas in Romans 13, you have the civil authorities to whom you submit, and you love your neighbor for that as the fulfillment of the law. It's like Paul thought this way without having to think about it. And yet, in my reading of Romans commentaries and writing my own Romans commentary, it's like I didn't even notice it when I was finishing the, the final draft of my Romans commentary. And so it's sort of like, you know, whenever you have a hypothesis that proves to be right, it starts to exert an explanatory power that you didn't see coming.
Speaker 0 00:15:00 It starts to open your eyes to other things and make more and more connections. And that's why I must say, you know, though, I feel like I've been working on the book for five years. It really goes back 50 to the early seventies when I was first converted. Yeah. And now I feel as though I could almost rewrite it in an entirely different way because of how it is impacting me, especially with regard to the sthe, which is economically unproductive. But it's really ordered to contemplation. And not just for me, but for my spouse, my sons and daughter's, man servants and maid servants. And even the so jers in our gates, it's like, this is the primacy of God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the primacy of the virtue of religion, which, you know, in Aquinas points us to a holiness that is God alone is holy, and yet God alone can hollow us.
Speaker 0 00:15:48 And then it's like, okay, that's why until God became man, could men become gods as we read an athenasius and anaise and others. And, and I, and I realize too, it's not just, you know, the centrality of holiness, it's the practical power. Hebrews 1214, strive for holiness, for without it, no one will see God. Really. And then likewise, this is the will of God for you, that you go to Ave Maria, no <laugh>, Steubenville, no. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is the will of God for you, namely your sanctification, you becoming holy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Vatican two, all of us are called to holiness. Yeah. You know, the religious, the bishops, the priests, the nuns, but also, you know, the guy who is cleaning up the streets, you know, late at night and so on. So, anyway, I, I didn't mean to just go on, but this is what's happening in That
Speaker 2 00:16:34 Was beautiful. Me. Yeah. That was beautiful. And, and thank you so much for really giving us a whole tour o of the book and this mystery of, of holiness that really becomes the mystery into which we are invited to live. Right. And, and I think I'd never quite before I read the book in, in this conversation right now, thought about just the uniqueness, not only that God is holy, holy, holy, right in Isaiah six, uh, and, and the power of that, but the idea that not only is God holy, but God commands us to have the Sabbath holy, keep the Sabbath holy. So that begins in Genesis two, as you described, also right. In Exodus and Deuteronomy in the right, in the 10 Commandments. So could you just say a little bit more about that idea that, because I think sometimes people can have that image of, you know, God's holiness is so other, it's, it's kind of scary.
Speaker 2 00:17:28 You wanna run and hide, uh, but Right. The catechism says, and, uh, paragraph 3 99, that it says that it's actually when Adam and Eve sinned, they lost the true image of God as a trusting, loving father. Right. And they began to think of God as kind of a tyrant who was jealous of his prerogatives. And so I think Sundays people also have a kind of a false, I mean, it's something about like a false vision of like an angry God from whom we need to hide. And that's really the distortion of sin. So I'd just like, if you could kind of maybe unpack a little bit of this idea that even at the very beginning of holiness in the Old Testament right, is already the idea that somehow God's holiness enters into creation through the Sabbath. Right. It enters into creation through Right. The tabernacle through the worship. So that, um, God's holiness, so to speak, that is in heaven already comes to dwell in a way in time and the Sabbath, and then it dwells in space, in the tabernacle, in the temple. So before we even get to obviously the, you know, the, the, the culmination and the fulfillment in Jesus, could you just say a little bit more about that sense in which God's holiness also dwells with his people, and therefore is an invitation for us to somehow dwell with God?
Speaker 0 00:18:47 Exactly. I mean, that's a great question. I'm not sure I can do justice to it, but let me do as minor injustice as I can. Um, if we start with the idea that holiness is the perfection of God's love. Yes. I think that's crucial, because then you can see why we profess our faith. And I believe in God, the Father Almighty, he's almighty. He's all-knowing, he's all present. He's infinite in all of his perfections, but it's not meant to terrify us. It only does when we kind of abandon his fatherhood, when we relinquish our own divine sonship. You know, John Paul points out at the end of crossing the threshold of hope, my favorite part of the last three pages, where he describes the effects of original sin. It doesn't turn theists into atheists. It turns children who relate to God as father into slaves, into servants, into employees.
Speaker 0 00:19:39 And suddenly you have obscured the face of God the father, and replaced the fatherly face with this master, with this taskmaster, you know, who has slaves mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and in, in a certain sense, God has given us freedom, and he respects our freedom, even when we abuse it. And so there's a sense in which he, he has to relate to us on our terms. If we can't see his fatherly face, there is a sense in which you're going to have the burning bush and Moses being the mystery in the <unk> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you're also gonna have the summit of Sinai enveloped in fire, an earthquake, you know, and all of these things, a mighty wind that opens up the Red Sea leads in the Mount Sinai. But eventually, as you move from the law into the prophets, you have this experience that, that Elijah describes, for example, in First Kings 19 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:20:32 Where he retraces the steps of the Exodus, only he goes back to ho and he's in the cave waiting for the Lord to speak. And the first thing you know is there's this mighty wind like you had at the Red Sea, and it splits the rocks, but the Lord was not in the wind. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, then there is a fire, then an earthquake. I mean, this is so reminiscent of Sinai, but he wasn't in the earthquake or the fire, and then a still small voice. Mm. And and I, Elijah wraps himself in a mantle because he knows that the Lord is in this still small voice. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, you know, I, I think of that as my own son now, as Father Jeremiah, when he says, this is my body that is the power of God the Father, giving us the love of the Son and the Holy Spirit for us to well become holy, perfect love casts out all fear, but whose love is perfect in this life.
Speaker 0 00:21:26 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there is an, an appropriate fear, but it's a Phil fear. It's a fear that we should have as sons of God and not mere slaves. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then as we are afraid of offending God, and not just afraid of getting caught and punished, you know, that love will grow and that fear will give way to the holiness without which he won't see God. But at the same time, a holiness that perfects our love. So in Leviticus, be holy for the Lord, your God is holy in Matthew six, be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. Yikes. Then in Luke six, Matthew five, and Luke six, it's be merciful for your Father in heaven is merciful. That's the key. God's mercy is what perfects us and makes us holy. So we don't just get to choose Luke six C as opposed to Matthew five perfect or holiness in Leviticus. It really is a way of triangulating to see if God is merciful to us, to perfect us and make us holy, then be merciful to others as well. Yeah. And I think that's the practical challenge, to draw close to God and yet extend his mercy to every single person, beginning with our spouse and our
Speaker 2 00:22:35 Kids. Wow. That's, uh, really beautiful the way that you linked, uh, mercy and, uh, love and holiness. And, and I love the fact that it's already in the very, kind of, in the beginning, back in Genesis one and two, uh, that sense of that there was a time when right, God's was totally holy un dwelling with human beings. As human beings were of course, in this state of proper ordering their own
Speaker 0 00:23:04 Sanctifying grace is what our first father
Speaker 2 00:23:06 Possess. So let's, uh, take a quick break and when we get back, I really want to go into, uh, how right some of the themes in holiness begin to kind of shift when we see right as we move into the New Testament. Good. Good. So we'll do that in a minute.
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Speaker 2 00:23:55 Welcome back to the show. And today our guest is, uh, Dr. Scott Hahn, and we are discussing his recent book with ESUs Press. Holy is his name, the Transforming Power of God's Holiness in Scripture. So thank you so much, Scott, for You're welcome talking with us about this, and thank you for Yeah. I, I do wanna shift, I, I wanna jump into really what happens as we go from the Old Testament to the New Testament, specifically about holiness, but I thought it'd be great. I realize, you know, I don't even know if we've defined holiness. So would you give us a definition of holiness?
Speaker 0 00:24:28 Yeah. I mean, I search for one from about 72 to about 92,
Speaker 2 00:24:32 Checking 20 years Wow.
Speaker 0 00:24:33 Dictionaries mm-hmm. <affirmative> commentaries. And they all come back to Kadesh having a root meaning of to set apart. And I can think of that as applicable because, you know, 44 years ago, of all of the beautiful gals mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Kimberly was set apart to be my bride. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. But on Wednesday nights, the garbage can is also set apart. <laugh> put up, you know, put out there for the pickup the next morning. So what does that mean to set apart? Well, it points to God who is set apart from all finite creatures, but that would almost make God dependent upon creatures, you know, to be holy, I have to be more than you are. Well, that kind of competitive analysis is defective as well. And so what you come to is this idea that the Holy Trinity is who God eternally is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and they are the trinity, the only God that exists.
Speaker 0 00:25:24 And the one thing that God is quite apart from creating and redeeming the world. And so in paragraph 28 0 9 of the catechism, I sort of backed into what I still consider to be the best definition of holiness. I mean, it's not like philosophically precise and logically succinct, but let me read, it's the Holiness of God is the inaccessible center of his eternal mystery. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you think of the highest mystery, the Trinity, the incarnation comes later, and then the Paschal mystery, then the dissent of the Holy Spirit. So all of these things are what open up, what would otherwise be the inaccessible center of God's eternal mystery. And then it clarifies, the second sentence is what is revealed of God's holiness in creation and history. Scripture calls glory, the radiance of his majesty, or what we could say is the mystery tremendum <unk>. That is our subjective experience, our response to the holiness, which, you know, can be like a little child before a really big father who's kind of got a deep voice and he terrifies, but he's not trying to mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 0 00:26:31 You know, he's trying to stoop down to you and your crib to raise you up to be a son and his own image and likeness. And so, you know, what happens eternally has to kind of be slowed down. So all of human history is like holiness in slow motion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, sometimes it just is so arduously slow. It's like, get on with it. Please make me holy. You know, on the other hand, there is this aspect of holiness. I mean, the Inaccessible Center is sort of the phrase that jumps out because what is that even pointing to? Well, it's the Holy of Holies that was the inaccessible center of the temple. The holy place in the Holy City in the Holy Land. But it was off limits in the Old Testament. Yeah. Only the hike priest could go in and only one day outta the year, the Day of Atonement.
Speaker 0 00:27:19 And for a brief time to atone for his sins and the peoples. And then he had a skedaddle with a blessing, but it was off limits. It was inaccessible. And you'll actually find in Aquinas's exposition of, uh, Dion is the divine names. He actually says, God is called the Holy of Holies. There on, I think it's, uh, article 9 55. So God's name is the Holy of Holies, just as he's the king of kings. He's the Lord of Lords. But there is no king if there aren't subjects. And so King and Lord requires a creation to kind of be the Lord of, but the holy of Holies is sort of what captures the eternal mystery. Yeah. And you still have to refine your focus in order to understand holiness then is what again, it's the perfection of the love of the Father for the Son. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 0 00:28:07 And of the love of the Son for the Father, which is the third person, the Holy Spirit, which is strictly off limits. Even the highest angel could look and say, oh, I think I can see three divine persons. No, even the serafim could not perceive the mystery of the inner life of God, who God is eternally is holy. And what holiness is, is the perfection of love. That is so, it's like a consuming fire as we read in Hebrews 12. And, and so the souls in hell hate hell, but they'd hate heaven even more. Yeah. Because you have to turn down the heat to kind of burn in hell. Whereas you are refined by the consuming fire of the Holy Spirit in order to enter heaven, the presence of God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it isn't just a place where you go to catch a sight, you know, spot the Trinity.
Speaker 0 00:28:53 It is life in the Trinity. And so this is ultimately the reason why the unveiling that you have at the end of the whole Bible is the unveiling of the bride of Christ as the new Jerusalem. Oh, it's Jerusalem. That's the holy city where the holy temple is, except when the sea of the apocalypse, John is commanded to rise up and measure the bride. I mean, that would be embarrassing for any man on the wedding day of some bride <laugh>, you know? But he measures it and it turns out to be 12. It's 12,000 stadia, four square. You know, why is the bride the new Jerusalem shaped in a cubic form? I mean, no woman wants to look like a cube on her wedding day, but obviously Jewish Christian readers would say that's because the bride, the church, the new Jerusalem is the Holy of Holies.
Speaker 0 00:29:41 And it's not for the high priest only. And that inaccessible to everyone else, it is now accessible to the lowest layperson. And so the lowest is greater than the great. And it's like John the Baptist was the greatest born of woman, but the least in the kingdom will be greater than John the Baptist. Oh, you exaggerate. But what if he doesn't? What if what ha what God has in mind for us will, you know, just exceed any family reunion, any vacation, you know? And the first 10 billion years will pass by like a minute, because time flies when you're having fun. And this is the only thing for which we remain to become saints. And so to open ourselves up to a transformative love, even though it seems to kind of take forever to kind of drain all of the residual selfishness in me, it just kind of is the one thing that explains everything that it isn't about, you know, wow, my son, father Jeremiah can transubstantiation bread and wine <laugh> into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ.
Speaker 0 00:30:38 That's huge. But God, using the seven sacraments through the Holy Spirit to transform self-centered sinners like me mm-hmm. <affirmative> into saints. I mean, I wish I had three thumbs, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's like I has not seen ears. Not her. It's never entered in the mind of man. The only thing for which we were made is to enter into what the Holy of Holies. And that's where the bride is in everlasting communion with her bride groom. And this is the Father, the Son of the Holy Spirit. Aquinas nailed it. So did Dionisia. His name is the Holy of Holies.
Speaker 2 00:31:10 Yeah. Wow. That's so, um, that's so amazing. And I think when you look at it that way, you can begin to see that I, in a certain sense, God's holiness is inaccessible, the inaccessible center as being, as is described, which is revealed as glory because his love is inaccessible. Right. Um, we have no idea the kind of love that God has for us. And it was interesting, I was thinking a little bit about Isaiah 55 8, where he says, right. Let us return to the Lord because he will have mercy on us, and it's God's forgiveness and mercy that then is described for my thoughts or not your thoughts. My neither. Are your ways, my ways for as the heavens are higher than the earths or my, my ways higher than your ways. So what in a certain sense is inaccessible about God? Well, his mercy and his forgiveness, that's what the earthly understanding of justice. So when we talk about God's holiness, and this, I, you know, actually Gustin talks about the certain sense that God's holiness is his charity. Right. And that's what is the central story of scripture. And I think in a way we sometimes now think of holiness as opposed to love holiness is kind of this condemning, but the irony, the
Speaker 0 00:32:22 Dark side of the forest,
Speaker 2 00:32:23 You know? Yeah, exactly. The, the irony is that it's God's holiness that is fundamentally this inaccessible mystery of mercy. Right. Mystery of forgiveness. Uh, and and it's interesting too, then if you go to say one John four where it talks about that God is love, but the idea is that this was revealed to us through his son, we on our own, we would probably lower God to our sense of justice. Right. I'll maybe forgive you if it serves me, but if you really harm me, I want my pound of flesh. Right. If you harm my children, right. If you harm my country, if you harm, I'm going to get even. And somehow, right. That leads us in this competitive despairing world of really loss and God's mystery of holiness is his love. Right. For God's so love the world that he sent his only son. So anyways, I think it's just this moving to this deep, uh, this deep inter penetration of this inaccessible center of God's love. You
Speaker 0 00:33:25 Know, I think you've just nailed something that really needs to be expanded or emphasized. And that is, his ways are not our ways. It would be more impressive to us if when he came to earth, he would say, Caesar boom, you're God Yes. You know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Caiaphas, you're next. You know, and just basically, you know, make manifest his own majesty in power, like the earthquake, like the fire, like the wind that splits the rocks or parts of the Red Sea. Yes. Like, you know, we all prefer to be converted like St. Paul did on the Damascus Road. I want shiny light, you know, I wanna hear a voice, I wanna be knocked to the ground that'll give you the rest of my life. You know, whereas a still small voice, you're like, this is my body.
Speaker 2 00:34:06 Hmm.
Speaker 0 00:34:06 What? Or, you know, to my bride, I love you. Mm-hmm. Would you marry me? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, come on, where are the fireworks, the pyrotechnics, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, where is the divinity? And that, that's where it is. And we were like, that's good, that's nice. That's istic and all of that. But I mean, let's go back and, and this is the, the reverse of the problem of the original heresy of narcissism. I mean, NAS theism wanted to split the Old Testament God from the New Testament. God, yes. We changed deities. Mm-hmm. This was a material deity who was scary, you know, and Justin holy, and this is merciful deity manifested in Jesus Christ. And of course, Iran Aus the newly declared doctor of the church. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> back in 2022, is the doctor of unity, because he shows the unity of the old and the new where God doesn't change, nor do we change God's, but he does change us.
Speaker 0 00:34:56 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he changes us from infants and rebellious, willful adolescence into okay, father knows best. And he manifests that in Christ the first born among many brothers and sisters. And so this is almost too good to be true, but what if it is the truth of God that he will stoop however low he has to go to pick us up when we are, you know, just broken. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when we are like whiny, when we are just wayward, and then he'll raise us up to a place that we can't go. If God alone is holy, then God alone can hallow, which also then explains why our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. We're not going to make his name any holier than it already is from eternity. But since we now bear the name of the Father's Son and Holy Spirit by being rebirthed into this ecclesial divine family, and then we realize our help really is in not just the Lord, but in the name of the Lord, in the name of the Father's Son and Holy Spirit, which just exceeds Elohim or Yahweh.
Speaker 0 00:36:00 No, we use this almost too much, but really we ponder too little. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when we say hallowed be thy name, the first of the seven petitions really identifies the first order of business for every day. And that is become a saint God, make us saints. And as you know, cuz we were both just fed by the spirituality of St. Jose, Maria Riva, you know, it's holiness in the little things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know. And so marking off the, the day in the morning by making a morning offering, I consecrate myself all the prayers, the works, the joys, the sufferings. And then in silence, after reading some of the gospel, you know, entering into prayer, you might put a rosary in there. But the, the most stupendous thing about the only one of the 10 commandments that refers to holiness is remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
Speaker 0 00:36:46 How get dressed up, get all of the kids and get, make sure that the church has a big, beautiful altar with all of the gold and all of the investments and all of the hymns and the Gregor. No, you know, all of that is awesome. But it's, remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy don't work. That's it. The only part of the commandment that has gone almost entirely unnoticed is <laugh>, you work for six days, you cease, but you don't just cease. Your sons daughters man, servants made servants. The oxen, the asses don't work, including the sojourners in your gates. God wants to show us, this is why I created the world, and this is why I redeemed you from slavery. So in Exodus 20, it's referring back to creation. But when the 10 commandments are repeated again in Deuteronomy five, the only commandment that is altered is the Sabbath command.
Speaker 0 00:37:33 Because you've just been liberated from slavery and you've been called to be my children. And not just because you're the aristocratic elite and the wealthy. I want this for the sojourners who are aliens in your gates. I want this for every single person who I've made in my image and likeness. And it's like, we have a lot more to rethink. You know, becoming holy is not about making ourselves bigger and better and smarter and stronger. You know, that's what we do as citizens, you know, in our mm-hmm. <affirmative> in our country and our, our state. But becoming smaller and growing closer to our Lord, and and establishing silence for prayer. Yeah. And contemplation. And not just for ourselves, but for our family and for others, you know. And like St. Jose, Maria would say, you know, set aside that time of prayer and guard it with a knife, you know, you wanna intrude mm-hmm. <affirmative> at your risk, buddy. You know, I am focusing on the first three of the 10 commandments, and then when I'm done, I'm gonna turn around and strive to be righteous and fulfill the other seven. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:38:31 There's a great theme of surrender, right. When we give up the theme of, we give up the notion of our work and our efforts, uh, to, to kind of bring a little bit of order into the chaos. And we kind of recognize, you know, all of our efforts are in vain to accomplish the good that we want in this world. We have to work, but the outcome is totally in God's hands. So we rest, we surrender, and we say, right. Ultimately, I'm powerless to achieve the good I want.
Speaker 0 00:39:03 Right. I'm, I'm powerless to, to achieve the only thing for which I was made to become a saint.
Speaker 2 00:39:07 That's exactly, and so, so, uh, in, in the old, as you go through the book, you talk about in the Old Testament, right. There are no, there's God is holy, the Sabbath is holy, you have the holy tab,
Speaker 0 00:39:18 The
Speaker 2 00:39:19 Sacrifice, but there are no holy individuals. And then in the New Testament, we begin to get first Jesus who becomes the That's right. The holy one, holy one. Uh, and then the Spirit that is sent is the Holy Spirit. And we begin to,
Speaker 0 00:39:31 That's the blessed fruit. And Mary is then made into the Ark of the Covenant,
Speaker 2 00:39:35 Which is holy. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:39:36 The
Speaker 2 00:39:37 Holy of Holies. Yeah. So could you say, I, I think maybe for people, if they can connect this theme of holiness and reverence and really God's love, how can we connect that to maybe especially the gift of the Holy Spirit as it really kind of, I don't know. I don't know. It, it almost is the New Testament right. In part, you know, and that's obviously because it's the, it's the fruit of the new covenant. But could you kind of re, could we kind of maybe try to con like, understand this better through discovering,
Speaker 0 00:40:05 I'm still in the, the theologian mo you know, in that mode, but, um, so what I'm thinking of is discovering way back, like almost 40 years ago, the Council of Trent that responded to Protestantism Yeah. In session six that deals with justification mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think by the time you get around to Article 11, it explains something that I never heard before. And that is, it would be unjust for God to command the impossible mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it wouldn't be unjust for God to command what is humanly impossible. Because what we can do then is we must do everything we can do for six days, then we have to cease from our labor and acknowledge that there is one thing left that we can't do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that is become, saints become holy, become a child of God. We can't work our way into God's family.
Speaker 0 00:40:50 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you couldn't even work your way into mind. <laugh>, you know, <laugh>. And so we have to do everything we can mm-hmm. <affirmative> and then acknowledge what it is we can't do. And then we have to ask the Lord to do for us what we can't do for ourselves. And that's sanctity, making us saints, making us sons and daughters of God and growing us up, you know, without Christ, you know, it's impossible. And yet with Christ it is possible, but we don't really believe that. We think that, you know, we can do it through the works of our hands if we work hard enough. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And even on the Sabbath, back in the Old Testament or the Lord's Day, you know, in the new, we can kind of just busy ourselves, you know, okay, there will be room for the Super Bowl or a football game. But I mean, well, it's the whole day day.
Speaker 0 00:41:33 It's not just one hour. Mm-hmm. And it's not about worship, it's about contemplation. And contemplation is not something that we actively do. It's something that God has to give us as a gift. So we're looking up to him and saying, I used to be scared, and there's still an element of that, but if you love me half as much as it seems through Christ in your word, then I am really missing out on this. You know? And I'm thrown back to something that prayer does for me. When I became a first time dad 40 years ago, you know, our, our newborn baby boy was born by cesarean. Four days in the hospital, the first night home, she nursed him at 3:00 AM handed me, handed him off to me so I could, I could burp the baby. I said, I'm gonna burp the, you go back to bed.
Speaker 0 00:42:14 And I'm walking down the hall and I successfully burped my baby boy for the first time. And then I felt slime going down my back <laugh> because I burped a little too hard and vomited, you know? But I take him into his room and I'm about to lay him into his crib and he looks better. Whereas I'm feeling the slime and I'm like, kiddo, nobody's ever vomited on me before you, you know, and I'm thinking a year ago if this had happened with another person, I would've been angry, frustrated, maybe rage. And I'm looking at this only person who's ever vomited me. And I'm like, such love, it's okay. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know? And instead of laying 'em down, I just sat down in a rocking chair and began going back and forth and I just felt this subtle presence of God in the room. It's like, you see how much you love your son.
Speaker 0 00:42:59 I'm like, words don't begin, Lord. Mm-hmm. Thank you. And by the way, thank you, thank you. But there was something more I couldn't get. And he was like, do you think it's possible that you'd love your child more than I love my children? And I'm like, if this is a theological pop quiz, the answer is obvious. I mean, no, I'm a first time dad, you're an eternal father. Then I realize it wasn't a pop quiz. And I'm like, you don't mean to say you love me like this. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you'll bur. And all I could think of was with the countless times I kind of vomited on God. Yeah. Figuratively speaking. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> thinking, well he loves me less and then less. And then does he still love me at all? Realizing it isn't my goodness that causes him to love me. His holiness, his love is what causes me to exist.
Speaker 0 00:43:40 And to bounce back through his mercy. And I, I didn't lay him down for almost an hour. Yeah. I just rocked him in that chair for almost an hour with God there, cuz God was using this firstborn to rock my world, to kind turn an upside down. But suddenly it seemed like, no, this is right side up. And with each of those children, the six and beyond, it's just like, this is why God gives us children so that we can learn what the love of a father and then marry the love of a holy mother. And it's like, it's, again, it's almost too good to be true. It sounds like religious rhetoric, but what if it is all true and not just Catholic talking points mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, then professing in our faith in God the Father Almighty and in Christ in the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 0 00:44:24 You know, we've gotta stop sounding like the parrot who says Polly want a cracker, but doesn't know what a cracker is or doesn't know who Polly is. And you know, it's just like press pause and get silent and ask God in the silence of a holy hour or in the silence of a morning prayer time, 20 minutes or whatever, or in the silence of a mass or evening prayer. But just, we need silence more than we need noise. And if we take credit for holiness, you know, we, we are fixating on six and missing the seventh, the Holiness. You know, it's like Goliath, the beast. The Phil stood six cubits tall, Nene built the idol, the image, it was 60 cubits by six. The number of the beast is 6 66. Would we worship the works of our hands? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, were stuck as workaholics. Whereas if we cease, we realize we're saved by grace, not by works, we're saved by the divinity. Who alone can demonize us. And we really don't have much more to do with death than just saying, here I am. Do the impossible. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:45:26 Yeah. That's a, it it's interesting. It makes me, i i that shift in away from our work, which is good. Yeah. Our work, our family life, which, which is good on the six days and as then, but it's the holy day of the seventh of worship that we can never go from day six to seven days. That's right. Day of course the first six days are already a gift cuz we could never create ourselves. But when we recognize that we've been created, then we recognize that we've also been, um, we've in the way walked away from our right relationship with God. And now we enter into that gift through worship. And in a certain sense, we have to surrender every effort to, to get into right relationship with God through our own efforts. Uh, there's a beautiful novena that came about from, I can't remember his name, I think it's like Don Lindo, but he was at one time a, uh, he was an Italian priest who at one time was a, a spiritual director for, uh, father First, now St.
Speaker 2 00:46:26 Padre Pio. Uh, but it's called the Surrender Novena. Uh, and at one line it actually repeats 10 times, uh, Jesus, I surrender myself entirely to you take care of everything. Yeah. And, and, and that surrender right of, of what it means to be a child. And I'm gonna do everything that I'm gonna do. I'm gonna attempt to do the duty of the day before me, which I will not do perfectly, but I will attempt to do that duty of my work and my family life. But the outcomes again, that I want most perfectly for me to be in right. Relationship with God as a child, to have my loved ones, to have the whole world and right relationship, God, I have no power. So I have to Jesus, take care of everything. And so, as, as, as we're kind of beginning to, uh, finish up, uh, this, this episode and our time together, I do wanna ask three questions of you and then we'll come back and just say a word about the book. Uh, but so just as a starter, what's a book you've been reading?
Speaker 0 00:47:24 Oh, um, Hebrews my favorite book in the entire Bible. Oh, yeah. Uh, I've also gone back and be, uh, begun rereading Thomas Aquinas's commentary in Hebrews.
Speaker 2 00:47:34 Yeah. You mentioned by the way, in the book that you said Hebrews is a eucharistic homily.
Speaker 0 00:47:40 Yes. And it's all about the Eucharist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, that is, um, chapter 12 in holy is his name, where I explain how the Eucharist is, the air you breathe as you read through the book of Hebrews mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it makes the, it's the only thing that makes sense of the practical, the entire argument, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:47:55 And it's interesting, if you think about that, then you mentioned that line from Hebrews where it says, right. You know, strive for that holiness without which we cannot see God. Right. But of course, the other thing is strive for that holiness with which we can see God, and then recognizing that that only holiness with which we can see God is the gift Right. Of the Son who is right. The very image of the Father. And because his sacrifice, we are present, we, we kind of enter into that sacrifice at the mass. Right. So the holiness that we should strive for in order to see God is actually the holiness given to us at the mass when we see basically the Father worship, he
Speaker 0 00:48:33 Just reminded meself of the book, I'm reading for spiritual reading right now. Oh, it's Mathia Saban's, glories of Divine Grace. Oh, okay. It's the best book on holiness, sanctifying grace. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the sacraments I've ever read, we're bringing back into print mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, later this year. Okay. Because it went out of print and we're co-publishing it with Tan mm-hmm. <affirmative> and maus wrote, and it is the book that just enshrines that sense. We are children of God, not just a name. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but in reality, let's live like it. I mean, Uhhuh, our work is sanctified when we order it to prayer and worship. You know, our, the fruit of our labor is sanctified through the liturgy. That's why six days of work is sanctified. We're called as lay people to sanctify the temporal order mm-hmm. <affirmative> not just to sanitize it, you know? Mm. Yes. Yes. And this is what Shaban really inspires in me, alongside of San Jose Maria. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:49:20 That's beautiful. Uh, second question out of three. So, uh, what's a daily practice? I'm, I'm sure you have many, but what's, what's one practice that you have that helps you draw closer to God and Right. Discover God as a loving father?
Speaker 0 00:49:33 Well, I mean, it, it is reading the gospels, it is spiritual reading, like I mentioned Shaban. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I mean, this is, you know, this might sound a little trivial, but it has been since December 31st, 1983, the holy rosary. That is my favorite thing every day, yesterday. Wow. You know, five times today, only two rosaries, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I mean, nothing makes me feel more like a child of God, a child of the Father than the gift of Jesus' mother. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and when I heard that John Paul's favorite prayer was the rosary mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was no longer ashamed to admit it, you know? And so I freely acknowledged the fact that, you know, way back in 1977 when my grandmother died as the only Catholic in our church, in our family, I tore her rosary beads apart. Mm-hmm. Thinking these were like the chains of superstition. And then she had the last laugh, <laugh>. Cause she was so devout. Yes. In her last years, I'm convinced that her prayers are the things, things that got me over all of these false understandings and hangups. And so the answer is the holy rosary.
Speaker 2 00:50:32 Wow. Wow. What, what, what, what, what an encouraging, uh, word on that re on that gift of the rosary. And so, final question, what's a false belief you held about God? And what's the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:50:46 Well, I mean, that would be answered by pointing to holy's name because mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there was so much truth that I held to when I came to Christ as an evangelical Protestant through young life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> through RC sprawl and through, you know, the training that I got to become a Presbyterian pastor, you know, but I, I just assumed that in becoming a Catholic, you'd have to subtract most of the gospel, but you not only add to it, but you multiply it exponentially. And so God is not just sovereign and omnipotent and all things happen according to the council, as will, as pulses and Ephesians one, it is a fatherly power. It is a fatherly love. And you know, they would affor, they would affirm, we would all confess the fatherhood of God, but we would subordinate it to the sovereignty of God, to the holiness of God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and then suddenly the discovery that Abba father is capturing the eternal essence of the reality of God. That it's not just being itself, it is this tripersonal being, you know, and the Trinity was always affirmed and defended, but never pondered and contemplated. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so for me, it wasn't an error that I overthrew so much as a truth that I professed in a rather superficial way.
Speaker 2 00:52:01 Yeah. Right. That since God is eternally father of the Son and the spirit, he then in time through the incarnation and gift of the Holy Spirit becomes father of us. Exactly. So that in the Spirit through the Son, we can write call God Father. So thank you so much for being on our show and it's a beautiful, uh, book, uh, that you've given us. Uh, holy is his name, the Transforming Power of God's Holiness. Uh, this is by a maus road press, uh, press of which you're the, uh, you know, founding, uh, editor. Yes. And so we're, uh, very grateful for that. Uh, and you know, for people who are interested in learning more, uh, you may want to consider looking at the St. Paul Center for Biblical theology,
Speaker 0 00:52:45 St paul center.com, and you can see maus Road and I should say yes. It's really Chris Erickson going all the way back to Curtis Martin, Tim. Great. Ten three. Those were all my co-founders in the, in the late nineties as we started
Speaker 2 00:52:56 This. Absolutely. Well, thank you again, Scott, for being on our show.
Speaker 0 00:52:59 You are so welcome. What a privilege. What to join.
Speaker 2 00:53:01 Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:53:02 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
