Speaker 0 00:00:00 I think Newman is a, a great saint for our times and for the evangelization because I, I think Newman really has a lot to say to the questions that we have and the, in our minds, and people have to read, and they have to think about the idea of the university. Think of development, of doctrine, faith, and reason. Uh, revelation.
Speaker 2 00:00:29 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Emory University. I'm your host, Michael Daphne, and today I am pleased to be joined by Father Juan Velas, uh, priest of the Cher of Opus Day, and a scholar of John Henry Newman. Welcome to the
Speaker 0 00:00:45 Show. Thank you, Michael. It's good to be here. Really
Speaker 2 00:00:47 Good. Yeah. So, uh, as listeners may know, uh, right, Newman's really, his teachings and his writings have been such an inspiration to Abe Marie University in particular, uh, and especially his idea of the university, right. His, in a way, defense of education, uh, of, of the being of a university is consecrated to truth and right. That truth that ultimately even includes, uh, right. The revealed faith of the Catholic faith. And that, uh, right. This is kind of the, the, you know, the natural home of a university is to embrace universal learning, to consider all things, um, everything in a way within creation, but even that part of creation, which was revealed to us, right. You know, um, through, uh, Jesus Christ and the mission of his spirit in the church.
Speaker 0 00:01:39 So exciting to hear that because you hardly hear that <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:01:43 Wow.
Speaker 0 00:01:43 That's fantastic.
Speaker 2 00:01:44 Yeah, it, it is. And I think it's, um, anyway, it's, uh, you know, I know for a long time, every professor at VE Maria receives a copy of the idea of the University by, uh, John Henry Newman. And as I was developing, uh, you know, this podcast and thinking a little bit more about Newman, uh, I went back to Pope Benedicts 2010 canonization, or sorry, beatification of Newman. And it was fascinating. He did it in England, right. Which I think is, is, was a very rare, uh, thing. But, uh, he really wanted to do that. And one of the things he highlights, he says, there were like three particular areas that make Newman relevant to us. So I wanted to kinda ask you a little bit about these. But one was, uh, that when, when he became a cardinal, it was, his motto was core. At core Loquitur, heart speaks to heart.
Speaker 2 00:02:34 And he especially spoke about the way in which, uh, this was an attitude of prayer, uh, that human beings could somehow speak to God and God could speak to them. And then, but then what was interesting is moving from that, he then moved immediately to the idea that the pressing issues of our age were one faith and reason, faith and reason are they compatible. And so it's interesting. So the idea of heart, speaking to heart is not just a pious thing, it's actually a reality. Cuz if that can happen, that means then that faith is not against reason. Right. And then in a way, thirdly, he talked about the role of revealed religion in society and within universities. And so, uh, so I, anyway, I just thought that was a really kind of fascinating theme. So, uh, just, you know, as a, you've been studying Newman for, uh, how many years now?
Speaker 0 00:03:29 Uh, 28, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:03:30 28 years. Right. Decades of your studies. And so, you know, how would you answer that question of why do you think Newman is relevant for our times? Why do we need to kind of, uh, make Newman like know, know Newman better and make him known? Right.
Speaker 0 00:03:49 Well, I'm glad you, you brought the, the, that addressed the beatification because pubic knew Newman's writings and thoughts and was influenced by him. And, uh, and he really nails it. He really, and I, I'd like to, I've read it a few times, I'd like to now go over it again, but, uh, and I think, well, I'll go back to the question in a moment. But when he, or, or besides, or, but he had going directly Newman addresses the whole person. One, one thing, one thing's. Initially he is just intellectual, but no, he's addressing the whole person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the, the, the person's, um, psychology, their, their history. He's, uh, he's, um, he has a historical mind. And so he addresses a person in, in their, their background. Their, their whole, their their, their situation. Yeah. And, and their reason. And, and so it's the whole person.
Speaker 0 00:04:39 And, and, and he speaks to the whole person, and he thinks God speaks to the whole person also. Um, but I think that thinking about our conversation today mm-hmm. <affirmative> that Newman, the reason why he's very, very important for our time is because he puts his finger on atheism or agnosticism. And, and so he's a man for our times, because in the 19th, 20th century, there's been such on 21st such a rise in agnosticism and atheism. And Newman really put his finger on it. He's, as, as you've heard him call, uh, another Augustan mm-hmm. <affirmative>, some people think of the, he's great. Three great thinkers in the, in Christian, Christian faith, there's many more. But Augustan Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century, and Newman, obviously I'm simplifying, and we could add Benedict the 16th in, in between there and John Paul ii. But, but, uh, Newman, um, deals with agnosticism, and you've studied faith and reason, and you have a, a wonderful contribution to that and, and the volume we'll talk about. But, uh, so Newman has his finger on that, and that's why he is relevant for us today. And it is something of both the mind and the heart, the whole person, and how we, our capacity to know God and why people get stuck and, and don't make that, don't have that knowledge of God for many reasons.
Speaker 2 00:05:59 Yeah. Yeah. That's really, I, I I love the way you express that, because I do think that question and almost maybe even more agnosticism than atheism, right? Not only knowing that God exists, but knowing that we can know something about him, and that we can know something meaningful and true about him, and that that gives then meaning and truth to our lives. Certainly. So could you say more about,
Speaker 0 00:06:27 Well, certainly because, because, um, uh, the agnosticism that he deals with is, um, it, it leads what is doctrinal agnosticism, but it leads to moral, moral agnosticism. Moral relativism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was thinking that moral relative in today. I was thinking that's another, what we could call it moral agnosticism. So both the, the doctrinal and the moral is, is, uh, unclear, and we think we cannot know. And, um, and Newman is as, as, as we know, talked about natural religion and what we can know through reason. So on the one hand, he, he, he expressed what we can know about God, but then he talks about revealed religion. Mm-hmm. So he addresses that, that knowledge of God through the natural, through a use of reason, and then through a use of reason, illumined by, by grace, which is faith mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the revealed religion.
Speaker 0 00:07:17 He, um, yeah. He had to deal this with, in the 19th century head on, because beginning with his brother Charles, who, who had doubts of faith at a young age. And Numan starts addressing and thinking about this. And then his brother Francis, also, who, who was a Christian, but, but had a lot of strange ideas. So at a young age, Newman begins to deal with this, but then his surroundings are, are surroundings of a, of a country that's growing through the industrial Revolution. Well, it's about to begin the industrial revolution, and then scientific revolution. And, and the, the everything's, everything's up for grabs. Everything's the truth of, of about God are, are, are put in question.
Speaker 2 00:07:56 Yeah. And for, you know, so for, just to, by way of context, so Newman's born, um, what in like 1801 or 18, so in London, um, he ends up, uh, becoming, I think he's like the youngest graduate of oral, oral college at Oxford, and becomes basically a professor there in his young twenties. Right. Uh, and really lives this great as an Anglican at this time, helps to kind of spearhead this wonderful renewal movement within Anglicanism, within Oxford called the Oxford Movement, really back to the fathers to try to renew the liturgical moral and doctrinal life of Anglicanism. Right. By bringing the fathers as the kind of definitive moment of biblical rev, of the reception of biblical revelation. But as he does that, of course, he, as he's thinking through that, right, eventually he begins to, you know, question whether or not Anglicanism or the Church of England is right.
Speaker 2 00:08:54 The Church of the Fathers. Right. And like, I think it's in 19, or sorry, 1843 ab Absolutely, yes. So when he's about 42 or so, that he actually, he begins to almost have a little bit of a crisis of faith. He begins to see that, no, the Church of England is not the Church of the Fathers. Uh, and he says at one time, he's on his deathbed with respect to Anglicanism. But it was interesting, it was two years. He took two more years. It wasn't until 1845 that he entered, uh, the Catholic faith, um, went studied, became a Catholic priest, came back to England, uh, was actually asked by, um, I think it was Pius the ninth. The ninth, yeah. To found the Catholic University of Ireland. Right. Uh, and that's, it was really as he was giving the lectures for the Catholic University of Ireland in Dublin, that we have the idea of the university, uh, and Right. And then he eventually, uh, you know, carries out his work as an oratory priest, founds a, you know, leaves a community, uh, at some point has rights. This great app, Aloia pro, Vita Suah, really a defense of his life in some ways, defense of his religious convictions. And then really only at the end of his life by Leo the 13th is, uh, declared a cardinal. Maybe it was like in 1883, or around that time,
Speaker 0 00:10:13 1879.
Speaker 2 00:10:15 1879. Thank you. It's always what? Good to have a scholar with me. And he in that address though, that he gives on becoming a cardinal, uh, or being created a cardinal as the language goes. Right. He, he says that his entire life has been, uh, trying to, uh, work against Right liberalism in religion, in, in religious thinking, this idea that there's no real truth in available and doctrine. Uh, so could you say a little bit about that idea that like Sure. His, that he would say that as he summarizes his whole life, that's been given as a priest versus an Anglican, then as a Catholic, in and outside of universities, founding universities, uh, trying to renew the Anglican church, then, uh, coming into the Catholic faith and all these different things. Yeah. Could you say about what does, what, what does he mean by that? And, you know, why is that important for Rh?
Speaker 0 00:11:14 Well, just a small thing before Yeah, I, I'm glad you, you summarized, you introduced his history and summarized his history. He was very young when he went to Oxford at 16, but then he mm-hmm. <affirmative> then he, then he actually entered when he was 17, but he went to, he, he was admitted when he was 16. Yes. And he, he graduated from Trinity College, but then Oh, okay. But then taught at
Speaker 2 00:11:33 Oreo. Oh, yes. Or
Speaker 0 00:11:34 Yes. And that's where he, he grew and developed and taught mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, go going now to the end of his life. Yeah. I, I find, well, eight and his, he died in 1889, so mm-hmm. <affirmative>, 1890, excuse me. So he lived as a cardinal for 11 years, but in 1879, that, that speech really sums up, I think, in, in as much as you can sum up a lot of his life or, or the thrust of his life. Yeah. And reading it, uh, today, again, uh, I thought, gee, I I need to write an article about a long article about this. Yes. Or, or, or more, because it has so much. So he's looking back at his life and, and he says, for 30, 40, 50 years or more, I, this has been my life struggle. And, um, to, to, to teach that religion is objective, that there's an objective data of revealed religion.
Speaker 0 00:12:29 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, as he, he says, well, liberalism and religion is to think that, uh, that there is no, that my religion is as good as yours. That my truth is good as your truth, uh, that I can choose the beliefs that I want. And, and he says, well, that's contrary to, to reason that you can't have two truths that are opposite, that are different. It's contrary to reason, and it's contrary to, to revealed religion to the revealed fact. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he, um, well, he does that in his life and his preaching and his sermons. He does that in the Oxford University sermons that we can refer to in a moment. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, the apology as an explanation of how he came about to, uh, distinguishing, which he thought was the, the true fold of Christ, what Christ had established, the Catholic church.
Speaker 0 00:13:25 Yeah. Distinguishing it from Protestant churches, so that he thinks that there's an objective, there's objective ways of, of thinking about religion, about faith, and you can make decisions, uh, about that you should make decisions. But basically, he, he's addressing this fact, it's very in, in ingrained in society that, um, that we really, uh, can't be sure about the truth, and that I can, my religion is as good as your religion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that all religions basically are the same. Yeah. And we hear this all the time, but most religions are basically the same. And, and that's appealing because in a way, I mean, there's a grain of truth that we're talking about. There's one God, and, and there's a few, and that we, religion should bring people together is not meant to. And so the, there's a common, um, there's some common truths in religion about God as creator.
Speaker 0 00:14:17 Well, not all religions, God is creator. God is as, as the one who judges the one who rewards God, who is good. So we say, well, these things are true. So then my religion is good as yours. Religion's all the same. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but obviously it's not. And so he, throughout his life works, uh, teaches this and, uh, uh, teaches the distinction of, of, of, uh, the objectivity of religion. Now, there's a subjective nature, because we have to make religion our own, or we have to, we have a, a personal relationship with God, but there are truths that are objective. And that, um, if we call them into question, we have to give good solid reasons for that, uh, which are, which are lacking, which are, which are wanting. So he, he made that his life's work. And, um, and, and that's why reading Newman, studying Newman is very important for our times. It really is. Uh, I'm, I'm convinced, uh, with that. So yeah. That, that's his, his life work in fact is, uh, is I think showing the harmony between faith and reason, uh, faith properly understood, respects reason, uh, as you've written, faith is an act of reason, but it goes beyond reason. And illumined by grace, we we're able to go further than our reason can go, but, but it's not contradictory to reason.
Speaker 2 00:15:36 Yeah. Yeah. I think one, the thing that he, he says there, uh, is that idea that, um, just like reason can move, uh, from, uh, certain things I can understand on my own to other things, and I can remove from, you know, propositions to conclusions and these sorts of different things. Reason can also learn from hearing from other people. And sometimes I'm gonna just have to take on trust what other people say. Um, right. He gives the example of the fact that England being, you know, larger, being an island and these different things, I, I'm not gonna go around and test it. It would be a waste of my life. I have to trust, uh, this element. He says sometimes, you know, like if we want, if we want to be absolutely certain of everything, we have to crawl on the ground. But if we wanna soar, we have to kind of trust what others have told us and then sift them. But we begin with trusting, and then we sift whether or not those seem true. This is how we live in the natural world. This is how science progresses. If science had to be, begin again at the beginning, every time for each individual scientists, there'd be no science. Right. Science can only develop because it largely trusts what, you know, other people. There's a
Speaker 0 00:16:51 Beautiful parallel there. Yeah. With, with our human life, the for human reason, we, we tru trusts. Yeah. And supernatural, we have to trust also.
Speaker 2 00:16:58 Yeah. Yeah. And so therefore, it's not against reason to trust the words of the apostles, the words of the apostles when they say, not just that, you know, you can do this scientific experiment, so, you know, be, try a new one. But they actually say, this man, Jesus rose from the dead and sent us his Holy Spirit. And if you believe, and so it's the same, it's an elevated mode, but a lot of our wisdom comes from Right. Trusting in the word of others. Uh, and we simply, you know, as, as he puts in a lot of ways right. We don't have the luxury of having absolute certainty. We have to kind of, uh, we're thrown into a world and we have to throw ourselves, you know, in a way, um, forward, you know, we have to kind of make a judgment and we can find certitude as he puts it, even if in a certain sense, we don't have absolute certainty.
Speaker 0 00:17:49 Right. Right. You, you, you, um, you in, in a paper that, in a chapter on this book and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, John Henry Newman, a guide to John Henry Newman, his life in thought. You, um, you talk about how new, you explained how Newman talks for the need for, uh, the predisposition of, to, to trust. You have to have certain humility. You have the predisposition to Okay, well, to that. You don't know everything that you're, that you have to learn from others. And also that it requires love. If you don't love something or someone, then you're not going to get to know 'em or interact with them because you're putting up a wall. So these predispositions of humility and love are necessary. And you could elaborate on that for, but I wanted to, before we forget. Yeah. Newman saw the church fathers, those authors of the first, uh, centuries of the church who were known for holiness and their wisdom and writings that he saw them as the, the best interpreters of the, of the teachings of the apostles and their successors.
Speaker 0 00:18:48 And, and so Newman said, at one point in his life, he said, the fathers made me Catholic. You remember? Yeah. And he reading about the fathers the early, especially the early church fathers, uh, sin Saint Justin, um, basil Gregory Neen, and St. Augustine, the fathers made me Catholic. He, he, he was trusting on their, their understanding of the scriptures and together with, with the magisterium or the early magisterium. So he trusted in their understanding. And, and you build on that, but you, you don't, um, you don't invent religion in the 20th century or 19th century. You, you're standing on the, on the shoulders of giants, and these were the giants. But so it requires trust, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, anyhow, that harmony and faith, I think one of the great things that Newman has to teach us, and that when, when there's true science, true science does not encroach on religion or contradict religion. And, and, and true faith does, uh, allows science to study and to try to establish natural truths without, with, without quelch, uh, uh, scientific study or discovery. Yeah. Uh, this is one of the great, um, one of the great false claims against, uh, Christianity, is that the faith as opposed to, to, to science. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is absurd.
Speaker 2 00:20:10 Yeah. He, and, and it's interesting too, cuz when he starts the Catholic University of, of Ireland, uh, and, and you have an essay about this, but one of the first things he starts is a school of medicine. Right. Right. Right. And of course, he's also arguing for the need for philosophy and theology, but he starts School of medicine applied science. Right. Because this is what kind of, you know, science in a certain sense, as we understand it in the middle Ages and afterwards, was really born just as the universities were from the heart of the church. Right. Uh, so, and that's conviction by the way. Right. In the unity of truth, because it all is part of one world from one creator. Sure. And that revelation is also part of that same world, because God entered into our world. Right. Spoke his word, communicated that word historically.
Speaker 2 00:20:57 And that's why not that same principle in a way then not only is his understanding of the university faith and reasons, science and faith, but also even his understanding of, um, when he talks about doctrine, his essay on the development of doctrine, which he wrote basically, you know, right. In his, um, at the end of his time as an Anglican, as he's becoming Catholic. Right. Uh, when he says, you know, somewhat famously, but to go deep into history, right. Is to cease to be a Protestant. And Right. This is not to dismiss, by the way, um, like he writes this as somebody who was a very deeply and devoutly committed Protestant for 30 years. Right. So he's not being dismissive, but he did see that to go deep into history is to see, right. That revelation isn't abstract. Revelation is historical and embodied, and therefore, just as the rest of our lives are historical and embodied, it becomes subject to kind of almo. You know, we can, we can investigate it and we can look into it as you pointed, you can kind of say, okay, yeah. Wow. Those are the apostles, those are the fathers, that's the church that is continuing Right. In that tradition.
Speaker 0 00:22:07 Right. Yeah. One of, one of his first writings was the, the history of the arians. It's not that he wrote before that on miracles, but mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's, uh, look at the early church history, the third, third and fourth century, their councils. Yes, mm-hmm. <affirmative> with the difficulties, but also with, with, with achievements and, uh, the, the work of, uh, trying to articulate our beliefs in God based on divine revelation and, and using, applying the mind to that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, uh, but he's, he's very historically minded. He understands that, uh, he, he's not naive about the difficulties of interpreting the scriptures mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and, uh, establishing doctrines and, um, and also that, uh, the, the well that the church also develops, uh, over time, and that the doctrine develops over time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, but, but one has to have safeguards to, uh, to make sure that that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that is a true development of, of the,
Speaker 2 00:23:05 I think it may, that's partly why, uh, some people see him kinda like as a modern church father, that he is aware of how much in modernity we tend to feel historically dislocated. We, once we become aware of how shaped we are by history, many people feel kind of lost in history. That if everything we say is historically culturally linguistically conditioned, then how can we speak any truth? And if the church is historical, then how can it have any truth? And so the beautiful thing about Newman is Newman lived in that world, the same world we live in, with the same sorts of questions. And he was able to articulate that, yes, this is difficult, and yes, it is possible. And we've always been historical beings. So like, either, you know, um, you know, we have to kind of, kind of shut down our whole experience of being human, which is not only that we are historical, but also that we discover truth, not only that we're historical, but also that we're moral beings.
Speaker 2 00:24:09 Right. Um, and, and this is where he, I think, really is able to defend this aspect that in and through the historical world of God's creation and philosophically knowable and experienced, and then the revelation of God who comes into the world has, again, you know, historically, and, uh, we, we can talk about it because it happened in time. Right. That through those aspects, we can still attain truth. Not the absolute certainty, maybe that Decart wanted, um, as though we could doubt everything, uh, but that, but in a genuine way, again, that we could, although we, again, certainty may be a standard that's not fully human, you know, you almost have to kind of like, it's almost like an angelic certainty. But he says, we can come to certitude, we can come to resting in certain judgments that we've made on which I am sure and I will cast my life. You know? Right. And if you think about this, I think sometimes our understandings of love, right. Our understandings of family. Right. I'm certain enough of those realities that I would give my, you know, that I might, you know, I might give my life for a loved one. I might,
Speaker 0 00:25:25 We rest in them. We don't, we're not judging them all the time. We
Speaker 2 00:25:28 That's exactly right. We, we rest in them. And I think that's what he does, is he kind of shows this, but he does it in a beautiful way, uh, that really defends this. And so, you know
Speaker 0 00:25:36 What, lemme ask please. Something. Yeah. And, um, the 20th, there's always been historians, the Greek historians and others. Yes. But the 19th century, there's a, at least in England, in Germany, there's a, in France, and before flourishing of history. Yes. And history becomes like the paradigm, so to speak. Yes. Later on 20th century, it's psychology. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and then empirical science, or like the paradigm of truth. Well, so Nomi is really kind of there. He's aware of that. He knows history, but he's unfazed in a sense, because the truth, historical truth is not contrary to Yeah. To revelation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, precisely. God reveals himself <laugh> in the prophets, and in his son, as, as you've mentioned a few times mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so he's not faced. And then towards the end of his life, he writes on inspiration and two, two, uh, short essays and or, and, and then be, and actually, and before that, in the, in the 1840s, he writes mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:26:27 <affirmative>, he writes on this, the apparent it's track 73, the apparent contradictions in scripture, many questions that arise. And he says, well, yes, but we believe because we don't understand everything, but we believe, and he gives reasons for that. But he, he's aware that there are difficulties in the scriptures. Yes. Uh, in, um, uh, this book might have been written by a few persons, or this something might have been added interpolated, but that does not invalidate scripture that does not, you know, put aside the, the real data. So it's very, it's wonderful. He's not, he's very much attuned to history and, uh, and, uh, and he says, we have to be patient in looking for answers and have faith. Uh, so, but you were gonna say you were, maybe you're gonna change to another topic. I don't know. Well,
Speaker 2 00:27:14 Yeah. Let's, um, let's take a, a break and then we come back. I really want to, uh, talk about the book that you've edited, uh, this guide to John Henry Newman, his life and thought. So we'll dive into that after the break. Great.
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Speaker 2 00:27:59 Welcome back to the Catholic Theology Show. Today I am joined by Father Juan Veles, uh, priest of the er of Opus Day, and we are talking about St. John Henry Newman. And, uh, father Veles has edited a book published by Catholic University of America Press, called A Guide to John Henry Newman, his life and his Thought. I was, uh, honored and pleased to be able to be kind of part of a, you know, kind of a soft editorial team that helped, uh, work with Father to, uh, kind of, uh, pull this together in different ways. I think, uh, we ended up with 27 essays, uh, by scholars trying to, uh, show the importance of really just, uh, John Henry Newman as a, as a, just a really, a tremendous resource and someone really worth studying and worth learning from. Uh, so anyway, so again, it's, it's exciting to have you on the show, father
Speaker 0 00:28:57 Michael. I am. I'm, um, I'm so, I'm so happy to be talking about Newman as, as you can imagine. And, and I wanna say to those who are listening and Yeah. Uh, Michael suggested the title of the book, <laugh>. I, I had a similar title, but, but Michael came up with a title, and I'm very grateful to your, your, your help as, uh, there were a few people like you, two or three who were helping me with the editorial ideas and, uh, uh, even though I, I edited the book, but, um, and, and I really like your chapter on Faith and Reason. And when people, I talk with a book about the book, they ask, well, what chapter should I begin with? And, and I invariably refer to your chapter as one of my favorites. And, but, uh, because it's such an important topic as we were talking about before, there's many other good chapters. And, uh, I don't know, maybe you would like to, um, ask me about it, or,
Speaker 2 00:29:47 Well, yeah. Well, let's, well, and, and thank you very much. Uh, that's very kind. And, uh, and it, it's fun. It's, it's interesting because in some ways, right, I didn't, I didn't study Newman because I thought Newman would be interesting to study. I read Newman early on, because I, myself had, you know, come to faith after having a long, or having an experience of kind of atheism and agnosticism and antagonism, right. You might put it to the church and to God, and to Christianity, and, and I, and I felt an experience of strong tension between, um, modern quote unquote scientific ways of thinking about things and the faith. And so it really, you know, that that work is just really the fruit of my own, you know, I don't know, reading Newman for Yeah. Almost 30 years now, off and on. And, uh, so I'm great that I'm if, if it's been able to be of help to anyone, uh, that's, yes. That's really wonderful to see. So, uh, to begin with though, I thought kind of like, hopefully some of our listeners and viewers are wanna learn more about Newman, uh, but also just how fun to get to speak with an editor of a volume. So what made you decide that you were gonna pull together, right. You know, uh, what, 27 authors and try to do a whole new book on, uh, Newman. So say a little about that.
Speaker 0 00:31:05 Well, there's, there's very good authors. I, I, I don't wanna mention names because they, I would leave people out, but there's mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's people who, who written about Newman, yes. Teach Newman. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, a number of them, like seven or six or seven are converts. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. There's, um, there's a, there's two women, uh, authors. Uh, I wish we would've had more, but, uh, there's, um, there's a few priests mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, it, it's a really exciting group of, of people who mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who who've studied Newman. And, um, basically at the Canonization of Newman, which was on, uh, October 13th, 2019. Yes. Uh, I got to be there in Rome. It was a, it was a joy to be beautiful, to be there. It was a beautiful sunny day. Uh, five people were canonized in St. Peter Square. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, poor Francis Canonized, um, St.
Speaker 0 00:31:57 Henry Newman. Well, around that time. And, and, and shortly after, I, I, um, looking at another volume by, published by a university, uh, uh, volume on Newman, I began to see that there's, um, there, there was need for, um, a volume that, um, presented Newman, a more fuller account of Newman, uh, I'll explain that in a moment. Yeah. Fuller account. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then secondly, that was, uh, also more, more, more favorable or or less putting into question things of Newman, not to say. And I'll, I'll address that too. So the first part about a fuller account of Newman, well, for example, for Newman, friendship was huge, as, as, as you know, from his letters. Yes. Like 33 volumes of letters. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and, uh, and his biographies. And we have two chapters here on Friendship. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and so friendship. And it's part of that core, core loquitur.
Speaker 0 00:32:54 And his, and his, um, his way of being that, uh, is, is part of a fuller picture of Newman. In other words, we present Newman as this intellectual many times, and we forget that he was, he was a priest, he was concerned for people. He was the head of a house of other priests. He cared for the people in his community. So a fuller account of Newman in that sense. There's a chapter on poetry, there's a chapter on Newman as a, a student of, um, the classics. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, which is part of that account of Newman. There's a, um, now the, um, I would've liked more like a chapter on his prose. And, and somehow there's one of the chapters a little bit on his prose. But, but, uh, but we didn't get to that. But even though other volumes have accounts of many of these things, we were trying, oh, a chapter on poetry mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:33:46 <affirmative>, uh, a good chapter on poetry, uh, by Barbara Wyman. We wanted to present an account of Newman that included more the person. Mm-hmm. The person, in fact, the first, the books divided into part one and part two. The first part is on Newman as a person, as an, or as a convert, as an orator, as a, as a, as a, uh, as preacher, sermons as a philosopher, uh, in the second. And so, and then the second part, which actually deals with my second, uh, consideration, was that in, in many volumes, uh, more recent volumes, or at least some recent volumes, uh, Newman is questioned. He's put into, like, into the, uh, the accuser's bench. And so, especially the apology of Prota Su, uh, as if Newman is singing his praises and kind of exaggerating and inventing things, and, um, and, and, and clearly from reading of Newman, I, I, I just, that doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 0 00:34:44 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and, and his life, and his life and his writings. I say, where, where is all this questioning of Newman? Now, this doesn't mean that we can't disagree with him, and, and that we, and that he's, he says he's the end and be all of things. There's other things that are developed after Newman. But, but we, we have to approach the author, especially an author like him with, with respect and with, and, and not as, like, putting him question mark about his, his sexuality, his, uh, his thoughts about evangelicals that, uh, his, um, his being, uh, really an authentic Anglican people would question that he thinks, said, think that he was a, a closet Catholic, and mm-hmm. <affirmative> was really undermining anglicanism, things like that, which are, which are not true and are just, so, I said, well, we, we need to try to look at these things and to present Newman in a, in a more fuller way, and also in a more calm and, and, uh, positive manner. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 2 00:35:43 Yeah. And I think one other thing too that really struck me, when you had approached me with the idea of developing the volume, as you know, it is, it is, you know, in some ways in our day within the scholarly world, sometimes history also becomes the predominant discipline. So it's as if the historians would give the definitive account of Newman. And, um, there's obviously, it's a beautiful thing to be a historian, right? How, how, how wonderful, and we've been talking about this. Yeah, exactly. How wonderful to have history. So we're totally, it's a beautiful discipline. And there are many beautiful historians, and there's also philosophy and theology, and this idea that we want to, it's important to understand Newman in his context, but it's more important to try to come to see the realities that Newman tried to see philosophically and theologically. And there is a way that sometimes, you know, that that's, you know, it's like we can, I dunno, it's like Aquinas could read Augustine even if he didn't know everything historically about Augustine, because there's a question of truth.
Speaker 2 00:36:47 Uh, and it doesn't mean that the truth isn't embodied in historical context, and that historical learning isn't an important part of the overall learning. But, but we can also say, well, you know, what, we've, we've, we we're, we've we're looking into certain things from a historical mode, and now we can also then, like, we, we can, at the same time, we don't need to. I guess what I'm saying is we don't need to establish everything historically first and then begin to raise questions about truth in a theological or philosophical manner, insofar as we have writings, they raise for us questions of truth. And it's appropriate for us, as, you know, truth seeking beings as homo sapiens, right. As goes speak kind of that, that we are also kind of the core at core, loquitur Newman speaks to our heart, right? And he raises certain questions for us as kind of a, as a preacher, as a rhetorician, as a, just such a gifted orator, really a, you know, is such a beautiful command of, of English prose in a very Victorian mode.
Speaker 2 00:37:56 Right? So it's sometimes a little challenging for people to read. Uh, but then when he speaks to us, the first claim that in a way it makes on us is, is this true? What does it help me to see? Does it help me to see parts of my reality that I couldn't see before? And again, that, uh, I think it's just very important within the fuller context, also, make sure that we remain, uh, like right beings that are capable of coming to know the truth about God, about ourselves, about the world, both in a philosophical mode and in a theological mode.
Speaker 0 00:38:33 I could, I couldn't have said it as you said it, you said it so well, but, but, but that was in my, my mind without being able, able to articulate. Well, I was saying, no, there's something here that's not right. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and recently I've read a few good articles with historical research about Newman mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is really interesting. Sheds light on Newman and the theologians in the 19th century mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Newman's Library, an Orel, what he consulted at Orio College. Very, very good things. But I, I had that concern of what you're saying right now, that somehow that history can't be the, the arbitrary of, of, of understanding truth or the person or the truth claims of religion. And, um, anyhow, it's, it's a complex, complex situation of what, uh, but I tried to bring that about, uh, to express that. Although I really liked the way you did it. I tried to do that in the introduction. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:39:26 So, so that's, uh, so maybe just for kind of, uh, listeners who, uh, haven't, obviously haven't read the book yet, or who, um, you know, aren't familiar with, would you say a little bit about how did you come to study theology? How did you come to study Newman? How did Newman become kind of like the anchor Yeah. Of your intellectual and scholarly life?
Speaker 0 00:39:49 Well, I, I studied, um, and I, my fellow is from Columbia, but I, I studied medicine, uh, in Columbia. And, uh, and then, uh, did residency training in Pittsburgh and internal medicine. Uh, I, I joined Pu Day along in the way, uh, this, this Cher, or this organization in the Catholic church, uh, founded by St. Jose Marias gva. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, and I was asked at one point if I wanted to study theology, and I considered the priesthood. So I went to Rome to study theology, um, but I still didn't know Newman mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then, um, and then when I went to Navarra, the University of Navarra for a second time, I had studied medicine there. I had finished my medicine there, but I went to the second time, I, I did doctoral work. And, uh, the, the way I chose it is I, I was, I read a book by Father Jose Morales, who died last year.
Speaker 0 00:40:43 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. He, he was a real great Newman scholar. Did a lot, especially in the, uh, to making Newman known in, in the Spanish speaking world. And, uh, for the, Jose had a biography, or has he? He, but he, although he died last year on Newman, I read his biography, and I, I must have read it rather fast. And, and I was taken by it, just really taken by the figure of Newman mm-hmm. <affirmative> as I had been taken by the figure, Jose Maria Grava some years before reading a biography of his. And, uh, his passion for truth, Newman was very sincere, very, um, studious, very committed to, to the truth as he knew, as he learned the truth about the faith. And, and, uh, so his, I was very impressed by Newman. And, and, and I wanted to know more about Newman. So I started reading and, and that became a, a, a master's thesis and then, and then a doctoral dissertation. So it was basically, uh, it was almost experiential <laugh>, if you could say, because I hadn't, I knew a little about theology and I hadn't thought about a lot of things. Yeah. But it was the person of Newman and, uh, his hu his, his humanity, I thought he was a, a wonderful person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I really, I, I I could, I could sense that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, um,
Speaker 2 00:42:00 No, I think that is a fascinating thing about Newman, that it's, it is in a certain sense, his own personal wi witness to the truth, to engaging the truth, and, alright. And it's not, I was even think about that you were talking about some people who kind of questioned the exact, um, veracity of the Aloia pro Vita Su Well, in some ways, right. He wrote that because he was attacked by Charles Kingsley is basically saying, well, all Catholics lie, or all Catholics will, Catholics will lie because they will do what the Pope says. They're not genuinely exercising their own conscience. It's a major thing. He ended up writing the, I think he wrote in two
Speaker 0 00:42:39 Months, the entire
Speaker 2 00:42:40 Or less. It was, it was, it was something like, I think it was almost like four, six weeks. Yeah, exactly. Like four to six weeks of just writing like no, no computer, just from morning till evening. And he just
Speaker 0 00:42:48 10, 10, 10, 12, 14 hours a day.
Speaker 2 00:42:50 Exactly. And so, I'm sure in some ways that you, somebody could go back and say, well, technically he actually says this here. And if you go back and look, he actually messed up the years when he was at, you know, Oxford or something. Right. Um, but the idea that that was a kind of vigorous defense of really can religious people be trusted, can, is can you use your conscience to believe in revelation, to believe that in what God has spoken, to believe in a living church, that not only did God speak in history, but that God continues to speak through the vicar of Christ. Right. So, and, and it's like a lot of his writings, again, are, when he writes the essay on development, it's because he's wrestling with trying to understand, are the teachings of the church today the same as the teachings of the apostles? And the ultimate answer is yes. Right. And a lot of his other works, again, they're kind of somewhat, you know, they're controversies, they're responding to different questions, they're engaging different things. So
Speaker 0 00:43:53 It makes it very personal. Yes. And, and he's answering questions well for himself. Yes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but that help other people. I've met many people on the line my life Yeah. Have said Newman really influenced me. Really helped me, yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's because he's, he's addressing questions that people that he was wrestling with mm-hmm. <affirmative> and that people have. Um, so I, I, I think, I think this, this book is, is helpful and it's the type of book that you don't read from cover to cover, but you read a chapter here, you two or three chapters put away, and then later on if you wanna consult, you read another chapter. I think Newman is a, a great saint for our times and for the evangelization. There's so many Newman centers in the country. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I wish we could give a copy to each <laugh>, each chaplain, a Newman Center. I, I've given out many dozens, but that we could give to, to Newman chaplains mm-hmm. <affirmative> professors, because I, I think Newman really has a lot to say to the questions that we have. Yeah. Uh, and in our minds. And, uh, and, and so I think that, um, yeah, I think we have to, we have to read more. We have, people have to read and they have to, to think about the idea of the university, think of development of doctrine. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, faith and reason. Yeah. Uh, revelation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> for
Speaker 2 00:45:07 Somebody who might be interested in learning more about Newman or reading more, what are some suggestions you might, you know, give them
Speaker 0 00:45:16 Good. I, I, I'm glad you cause I was thinking about that. Glad you reminded me. Well, one thing is, uh, with reading Newman's writings, I think it's important first to, to, well, it's helpful to read a biography because, uh, now you're gonna ask me which biography. I don't, because what happens is that well, his, he makes you really, sometimes it's hard. His rea the reasoning is, is engaging, but it's demanding. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's helpful to read a biography of Newman. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, Louis Boer has a very good biography. Louis Boer. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's a
Speaker 2 00:45:49 B O u y e r.
Speaker 0 00:45:51 Right. Interesting. Theologian
Speaker 2 00:45:54 Has the one by Jose Morales that you spoke about been translated?
Speaker 0 00:45:57 I don't think so. Oh, okay. It's very good. It's very good. But I don't, I'm surprised. Are,
Speaker 2 00:46:01 Is that one of your, uh, desert Orta?
Speaker 0 00:46:04 Uh, well, I, I wrote a biography of Newman <laugh>. That's right. Yes. Called Passion for Truth, the Life of John Henry Newman. Wonderful. I wasn't gonna bring that up right now, but I did. No, that's bi
Speaker 2 00:46:13 Yeah. That's a service. That's a great service. And did, was that published
Speaker 0 00:46:16 By 10 St. Benedict. Okay. Yeah. But, uh, in a second other biography would come to mind. But, so I think a biography's helpful, but, but the sermons, Newman's sermons, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the parochial plain sermons, uh, are are very helpful. I jotted down some of the ones that I, one that I like very much is Ventures of Faith.
Speaker 2 00:46:35 Yeah. By the way, um, uh, the new president of VE Marie University, mark Middendorf, loves Newman's Sermon on Ventures of Faith. Is that right? And always mentions it and said that he basically read it almost when he was deciding to come here, and then when he was inviting people to come with him, sent them. Is that right? The Ventures of Faith. Wow. So that really is a, that's interesting. And, and I, and I do think that the parochial and plain sermons, uh, there's a beautiful Ignatius press, uh, version that has all eight volumes in one little, I think it's about probably like 800 thin pages. Uh, but it's, they're, they're masterful. And they're also available online. I believe it's like a scree No, it's, um, what is it? Like
Speaker 0 00:47:15 Newman reader.org.
Speaker 2 00:47:16 Newman reader.org. Um, but those are some, and what were a couple of those other, uh, sermons?
Speaker 0 00:47:21 No words, the indwelling spirit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he has some about the Holy Spirit, the Tears of Christ. I mean, just, just the, just the word. And we could read it for, for Land Tears of Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, another one called Faith and Love. Yeah. Although that's, that's a recurring theme. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> faith in love and, and then watching his idea of watching and watching for Christ, looking out for Christ in Advent mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, but there's many wonderful sermons. And then, and then I thought the novels, uh, he has two short novels. Uh, one's called Calista, about a, a a third, a fourth century Christian, or a Pagan who becomes Christian in Northern Africa. Calista, it's a moving story. It's a drama. And, uh, it really tells us a lot about friendship and evangelization. It's just, it's fabulous. Yeah. And then, uh, uh, faith, uh, laws and Gain, which is his first, uh, Catholic writing.
Speaker 0 00:48:12 And it's his, his, it is really like autobiographical. Yeah. As, as you know. So those are some things, but, but then he has these great books. The idea of university is just wonderful. Um, that so many things I think Theola is, is a tough one, but it's very, very beautiful. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm sorry that this volume doesn't have a chapter on the Apia. Yeah. The editor also the editor of the Catholic University gave me a limit of words, but yes, there should have been a chapter on the Apia. Yeah. I should have pushed for
Speaker 2 00:48:39 That. Everything's incomplete. Right? Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's a lifelong, uh, learning. And so what, what, what
Speaker 0 00:48:45 Is, what is one of your favorite sermons? Or, or what would you suggest?
Speaker 2 00:48:49 You know, there, there are two that come to mind. Um, one is one that he writes called The Religion of the Day. And you know, I,
Speaker 0 00:48:57 I had the, I had the written. Oh,
Speaker 2 00:48:58 That's great. Yes. So, and I think he, it's, he, basically what he says is the religion of the day is kind of contemporary, popular religiosity, um, feelings. Yeah. It might be that basically Christianity makes you feel better. Maybe you should be kind of optimistic. Um, maybe things will work out. Um, you know, our society's probably a good thing and it ought to continue, you know, just like it's this sort of thing. And we tend to basically, it's like he, it's, and, and we think it's kind of like Christianity, but it's largely just this kind of worship of, and it's, it's infl, it's, it has Christian fragments. Absolutely. You know, genuine maybe sense of regard for the other good
Speaker 0 00:49:42 Taste.
Speaker 2 00:49:43 Yeah. All sense of
Speaker 0 00:49:44 Propriety.
Speaker 2 00:49:44 Yeah. Um, and yet ultimately it's, we, we we're, we're still, the focus is basically on us and our common life and improving it. Right. Uh, so, and he then contrasts that with like, with, with with Christianity, which kind of comes into the world, you know, built upon in a way the suffering of, of Israel and the fidelity ultimately of Israel. Barely, largely the fidelity of God and the infidelity of, of, of the people of the Old Testament. But then ultimately comes, right, is born to the cross. There there's an aspect of somewhat, kind of like, there's an aspect of darkness that is unmasked in Christianity where we see that we're not all well society's, not all. Well. And he even has that line where he says, kinda like, religion ought to be gloomier, which is
Speaker 0 00:50:35 Stark gloomy, but it's a recognition of fallen man and neath for grace.
Speaker 2 00:50:38 And then it allows us to speak the truth. Cuz I feel like the problem is when you have kind of like a naive Christianity that's floating around, then you have the problems of like injustice. And then people get attracted to say Marxism cuz they're at least dealing with the real problems of the world versus this kind of vapid, somewhat naive Christianity says, no, like, you gotta go, if you go back to really what Christianity is. Yeah. This is beautiful. So, and then there's another one that I, I think that the title just escaped me. Um, but I love, I share it with our master's students where just one line he says basically, but I want the same people to be kind of like, Oracle's a philosophy and like shrines of devotion. Um, it's a beautiful one about the need to kind of really faith and reason aren't something that is united outside of us, but they really have to be united in us.
Speaker 0 00:51:30 Is that the title of angels? Does it say something? No,
Speaker 2 00:51:32 I don't think so. So there'll be a mystery people can try to find, but, but if you Google Oracle's a philosophy, you can probably shrines a devotion. You can find,
Speaker 0 00:51:39 It might be one of the, the sermons that he gave the University of Ireland. Cuz he gave a number, he gave a number of them. And, uh, and it might be, but yeah. Yeah. That's, that's beautiful. So, um, I think the other one summarizes his thought so much of Yeah. The religion of the day. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he really kind of really describes that.
Speaker 2 00:51:55 And it really shows the deep hope that basically Christ enters into the midst of our pain and suffering and woundedness. Um, and Newman's Right. Conversion wasn't all easy. He talked a lot about how he was deeply broken in part by the loss of his friends. Sure. The loss of his colleagues, the loss of, in a certain sense, his family members. Sure, sure. He has a quote later on his life where he says, for me it was like, for years the only consolation, my only earthly consolation has been in the Eucharist. I mean, this is just a beautiful thing. So, uh, just as we're wrapping up, father, can I ask you just three questions? Uh, one, what's a book You've been reading?
Speaker 0 00:52:30 A book I've been reading. Uh, gee, uh, what have I been reading? What have I been reading? Um, well read The Apology just recently <laugh> the Apology, but I, that's a good answer. But I've been reading The Passion of Christ in Spanish. It's a book called, uh, LA mm-hmm. <affirmative> by Spanish author and this and Louis de Lama. So getting ready for, for Lent passion of Christ. And, um, and gee, um, that's great. That's what comes to mind right now. Yeah. That's
Speaker 2 00:52:58 Great. And what's a, um, you know, out of obviously many as a, as a priest, et cetera, but just ones, what's maybe one kind of daily practice that you use that you, um, find helpful to Right. Really discover this, this, uh, presence of God? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:53:14 Well, I, uh, as many Christians do, uh, hopefully more and more will do it is or read the gospel every day. Mm. Five minutes. And before I used to read like, straight through, but now I kind of, I re I read and I reread and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and, and I, so yeah. The, the Gospels or the New Testament. Yeah. And, uh, so I think that, I think we, we really have to help people to, to read the word of God, to reflect on it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> to let it sink in. So that's been, it's been a kind of red discovery for me the last few months of reading a Slower, the last year. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> reading it slower since the last retreat, wanting to more, more intentionally reading the scripture. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:53:53 That's beautiful. And, uh, last question, what's a, maybe a, a view or like a belief you held about God that you later, like, that you discovered was false, and then what was the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:54:08 Well, so not exactly answering the question, but, but the last few years I've been, uh, with, with, with the inspiration of saying as Maria mm-hmm. <affirmative> and John Paul ii, Saint John Paul, can I discovering the person of the Holy Spirit. Mm-hmm. So I've always believed in the Holy Spirit, obviously Yes. But, but kind of just being more attentive to the Holy Spirit sometimes I wish it was all the time. Yes. And, and, and discovering he's a person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> St. John Paul says he's the gift person. So the gift of the father and the son. But that gift is a person. It's very beautiful. And I, yeah, I'm not ready to talk, I mean, to talk more about it right now. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's, and, and, and I'm only just beginning, but <laugh>. But it's, it's, it's a good discovery. That's
Speaker 2 00:54:47 Beautiful. Well, uh, father Juan Vela, thank you so much for being on our show and just for people who are interested. So the book, uh, published by Catholic University of America Press, is called A Guide to John Henry Newman, his Life and Thought it has over, uh, it has 27 essays and, uh, along with an introduction. Uh, so I think it's a wonderful resource and, uh, it is somewhat scholarly in nature. Uh, so, you know, if you are, you know, it said if you're not interested, maybe in, in getting it for yourself, you might consider maybe for a seminarian or a priest friend or a student of theology. Uh, and any of the listeners of the show, if you go to the C Uua website, can type in CT Catholic Theology not show, but just CT 20 and you'll get 20% off. That's right.
Speaker 0 00:55:37 So, uh, my goodness, I don't know if it's CT 10 or CT 20, I think it's CT 20. I think it's CT 20.
Speaker 2 00:55:42 Well try both. We'll see what happens. Anyway, thank you again so much, father, for being on the show.
Speaker 0 00:55:47 This has been wonderful, especially because your participation, the book and your love for Newman. Thank you very
Speaker 2 00:55:52 Much. Absolutely. And, and you know, St. John Henry Newman, pray for us. Wonderful.
Speaker 3 00:55:58 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
