Speaker 0 00:00:00 Everyone is called to have a spiritual life, and there's no such thing as a non-intellectual spirituality. So whether you're a 90 year old grandmother or a 12 year old child or young person getting ready to think about college, all of us are called to the spiritual life and therefore called to know, study something about God.
Speaker 2 00:00:26 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Avi Maria University. I'm your host, Michael dk, and today I am, uh, thrilled to have with me, uh, father Cajetan Cudi, a Dominican, welcome to the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:39 Thank you very much. It's a great joy to be
Speaker 2 00:00:41 With you. Excellent. Father Cuddy is a, a professor of, uh, systematic and moral theology at the Dominican House of Studies in DC And, uh, we're just so thrilled to have you on the show today, and we really wanna spend today talking about how to study theology. Uh, just, I, I think a question that, uh, many people as they listen to more theology and want to grow in their faith, really want to know. Uh, but before we begin with that, I'd like maybe a little bit more of a provocative question, which is why study theology at all, even if we believe right in God, isn't it more important to pray than to study? So why should we spend time kind of thinking and studying about God, uh, when we could simply go to the chapel right, and pray? So how would you answer that,
Speaker 0 00:01:32 Father? I think that's a very good and a very common question, even if we don't articulate it as well as you have. I think many people ask or carry this question in themselves, and I'd say there are two parts to an answer. The first would be on our side, and the second would be on God's side. The first part, our side, there's no such thing as a non-intellectual spirituality. And the reason why that may sound peculiar at first, but the reason why there's no such thing as a non-intellectual spirituality is because our spirit, our soul is our intellect. Mm. And is our will, which is the intellects appetite. And so, in order for us to be spiritual, all Catholics, all Christians know that the spiritual life is important. That is necessarily and indeed, essentially an intellectual thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because your soul, your spirit is your intellect.
Speaker 0 00:02:27 That's the highest power of the soul. So that's on our side. You can't be non intellectually spiritual or have a non-intellectual spirituality. Now, that's not to say that we have to be, uh, proponents of an intellectualism mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that would mean that ideas are the end or the intellect getting excited or stimulated is the end. That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that the soul, the spirit of the human person, spirituality is a movement, movement of the intellect that's ordered to real things. And that's where we move to the second part. So if the first part is on our side, you should study theology, which has a certain intellectual movement. And that's because you, there's no such thing as a non-intellectual spirituality on our side. Now, on the side of God, you can't really love God if you don't know him. Mm. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:03:22 And so there's this yes, uh, imaginary scenario that some speakers use, which I think is helpful. So you are married Michael, of course. Yes. Yes. And you love your wife. And if you got in, uh, here and told us, you know, I love my wife. And you described theres having, uh, blonde hair and, you know, uh, deep, uh, or bright, you know, blue eyes, et cetera, et cetera. And it would be very beautiful and very nice. But I think, as I recall, your wife is not blonde <laugh>, and she does not have blue eyes. Yes. And so, as nice as things might be mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we would be touched by the kind words if that doesn't actually reflect the object of your love, your wife. Yes. She's not honored by that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So theology is important because if you go to the chapel without really knowing who God is, and you say nice things about him, to your friends, and even in your heart, you might say nice things to him, but if they're not true Hmm. You're actually not having a real relationship with
Speaker 2 00:04:21 Him. Yes. That's interesting. I, I know in, uh, St. Theresa of ALA's, interior castle, which is really a story of her own, uh, prayer life and her own journey to God, uh, towards the end as she's kind of deep in the mysteries of this marriage, un marital union, with our Lord, with God, she says, right. Never set aside the sacred humanity of Jesus. Right. Which means we're never just going into an unknown God. We're coming to God as he has revealed himself in the sacred humanity of Jesus. And that means, right. All of his words, his actions. Right. And, and so it's that concreteness. Right. And so we want to get to know that concrete, the hu sacred humanity. Right. The humanity that is also divine because it's Right. The incarnate word. And the more we come to know that then we can more deeply love.
Speaker 2 00:05:19 Right? It wouldn't make sense just to come to study it without wanting to love, but it also wouldn't make sense to want to love without forming our minds according to that reality. That's really a beautifully put, uh, father, uh, you know, thank you for that. Also reminds me, uh, there's a famous word that often gets used for, uh, when in the gospels it speaks about repent. John the Baptist says, repent. Jesus says, repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And sometimes people will note that in the Greek it says meta noia. And people will sometimes say, that's like turning around Right. 360 degrees. Right. Which is a joke because Right. You should only supposed to turn around <laugh>. If you turn around 360 degrees, you're just doing what you're doing now, you're supposed to turn around 180 degrees. But that meta Noa meta in a way means to kind of change, to turn, to have that higher order.
Speaker 2 00:06:13 But noia comes from the Greek word for noose. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> for knowing, for seeing it's our mind. So repentance is actually a changing of the mind, changing of the spirit. Repenting means turning all of us mind. Right. Our full intellect, which means our intellect and our will away from unreality in ourselves to God. Uh, so even that sense of repentance, which is an action of the will, is also meant to be a renewal of the mind as, uh, Paul says beautifully in, uh, Romans 12. Right. Uh, that we should be transformed. Actually, I wanna read that passage cuz I think it's a great, uh, passage for thinking about the nature of theology. And maybe you could just comment on this a little bit. So in Romans 12, Paul says, right, I appealed to you, therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. And that word for spiritual is actually kind of in the Greek logical, right? It's that sense of that intellectual Right. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that you may prove what is the will of God? What is good, perfect. And acceptable. So say a little bit about this renewal of the mind. So
Speaker 0 00:07:36 It's one of my favorite passages, Romans 12, two, and I think it is exactly in this verse, or this verse, reflects exactly what you have just said very beautifully and profoundly. And that is that the intellect, by its nature, our mind, our rationality, our ability to think and understand their outward directed mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I like to say that the intellect and the will are like the two spiritual arms of the soul. And so, when you understand something, when you reflect upon something with your mind, when you contemplate something, your intellect is the arm that pulls in. When I see a tree, or I understand the two plus two equals four, the form, the idea, the nature of a tree and of the truth of mathematics comes into my mind and rests there, transforms it. I am different after I know, learn, understand a truth, a about reality.
Speaker 0 00:08:36 I'm different after than I was before. And the will then, once you have that idea, once you have that conformity with reality in your mind, the will is the second arm. It moves out towards the thing. So God has given us in our soul, the inward from outward to inward movement of the intellect encountering real things, real people, real trees, real food, a real God, and attempting to understand that reality. And then the will moves out so that we have not just an idea about reality, but we actually have a certain contact with that reality. And so this is why we could boil this down to simply, you are in a sense what you know mm-hmm. What you spend time meditating upon, what you spend time contemplating. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we know this, so if, if I spend all my days, uh, playing Xbox, you know, as fine as that might be an occasion, but if that's all I do, my thoughts, my imagination, my dream, my preoccupations, my friends, because I'm gonna be drawn towards friends who also appreciate the video game world, they're all gonna be shaped by upon what I spend my time contemplating.
Speaker 0 00:09:49 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, on the other hand, if I spend time contemplating sports, we know this. If two guys are strangers are sitting on a bench and they try to have a conversation, and they both, they may be strangers, but if they share sports interests, they're immediately friends. Because this is a point of union. And likewise, when we understand, contemplate God, that's why the church is one, God is the principle of the church's ultimate unity. Um, so we are what we think about, we become more and more conformed to like the realities that we spend our time contemplating, or the myth, sadly, that we spend our time countenancing. And then secondly, it's through, or rather because of the fact that the soul, uh, has these two spiritual arms, intellect in the will that God has made us, enabled us to both contemplate through the intellect and be united to through love, through the will.
Speaker 2 00:10:44 Uh, that's, that's so well, well put in. That's a, it's a great image. Uh, father, uh, would you just tell, uh, especially for listeners who may not know, uh, you, uh, tell us a little bit about, uh, yourself. Uh, I understand that you're a convert to the Catholic faith. Uh, obviously at some point, uh, you discerned a vocation to the Dominicans. Could you just say a little bit about maybe those two stages in your own kind of intellectual and spiritual journey? Sure.
Speaker 0 00:11:13 So I was very blessed. So I was adopted a three months of age from South Korea by very, uh, loving and, uh, devout evangelical Protestant parents. And I was reared in the countryside of Western Pennsylvania mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I'm in the middle of the woods. And, uh, then I grew up eventually there through adoptions. And then my parents gave birth to, you know, I had grew up with four younger sisters. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I was an only boy, the oldest with a lot of time in his hands in the woods and with severe allergies, <laugh>. So I said, what am I gonna do? So I began to read mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, philosophy and theology. I was homeschooled. And my hair, I can still remember they gave us for Christmas one year this world encyclopedia. And I was just flipping through it. It was probably expensive, thick paper. But I came across a section of philosophy.
Speaker 0 00:12:03 I'm like, oh, this is very interesting. So I'm reading about Aristotle and Play-Doh. And then I discovered, cause I was an evangelical Christian, you know who, you know, the, the theologians like Luther and Calvin who started that. And basically from about the age of 12 onward, I was very much interested in the reformed evangelical Calvinistic Presbyterian theology. And so of course I was very anti-Catholic because I thought, quite frankly, that Catholics earned their way to heaven, uh, through good works, cuz we were saved by faith alone according to the reformed tradition. And then that they imposed Catholics imposed outside compromisation of the truth through tradition. It's the Bible alone as Protestants say. So I went to a very good, uh, college for one semester called Grove City. And there I met one of our mutual friends, or his son Gabriel, and his father was Scott Han Uhhuh <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 00:13:01 Wow. And, and I had known about Dr. Han's story because I knew some of his Calvinist mentors before he had converted. We thought he was crazy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So Dr. Hanah very kindly came to, to this city college where we were a freshman first semester. And we were talking about predestination, one of my favorite topics. And he recommended a Dominican, the doctoral advisor, the professor of St. John Paul II at the Angelica in Rome, Reginald Gary Goig Grande, wrote a book, A Catholic priest wrote a book called Predestination. And I was very perplexed because of Catholics don't really, they're crazy. How could they have a doctrine of predestination? So I read it this Dominican father, Gary Gule Grande, again, the professor of John Paul ii in his advanced studies. And I saw in this book very clearly, uh, uh, an incisive, accurate, profound spiritual account of predestination. Again, one of my favorite topics as a Calvinist that did two things. One, it recognized some of the things that I held dear from the Protestant reform tradition, namely that God is in control mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that he is the first cause of our salvation, while also not falling into some of the dangers that Calvin and Luther fell into, like double predestination mm-hmm. <affirmative> where God doesn't just move you to heaven, but he erroneously they would claim, moves some people to hell.
Speaker 2 00:14:29 Yeah. Actually, I always found in that, uh, book, I think Agar gu la Grande, uh, and I find this using it helpful sometimes with students, is he distinguishes the, the received teaching of predestination from what he calls Predestine, uh, predestine Arianism. Yes. Where it's like, where we have an exaggeration, exaggerated notion of God's predestination so that it wipes out human causality, human freedom. Uh, but I thought that's an interesting way of kind of separating Right. An authentic account from this, uh, kind of exaggerated account that actually by trying to give more glory to God, it actually gives less glory to his creation, which ends up ironically giving less glory to God. Yes. Right. One of the powerful things about Aquinas is Aquinas think God's so amazing and powerful that he can actually create creatures that are real. Yes. And act, and it doesn't, it's not because he has less power, but because he has more.
Speaker 0 00:15:24 Yeah. One of, as the Thomas tradition, Thomas are like the students of St. Thomas Aquinas. We don't call them Aquinas. Syrian <laugh>, we say Thomas. Yeah. And one of the great adages, or the great sayings of the Thomas tradition is that God is 100% the cause mm-hmm. <affirmative> of your salvation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you yourself are 100% the cause. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's no 50 50. That's 80 20, that's 90 10. It's 100%. 100%. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:15:51 So I didn't mean to, I wanna get you like, uh, like let you continue that. Uh, so that was kind of where your, your, your theological thinking and your study and your conversions beginning to unfold.
Speaker 0 00:16:01 Yes. And so then I read a bunch of Catholic things, including some things that you wrote. I can remember, uh, professor Dophine was publishing many articles and even books, uh, at a rapid rate. Very impressive at that time, which were very helpful to me. And so I decided after one semester at Grove City College to transfer to the Franciscan University of Steubenville. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I converted there my second semester freshman year. And I had the great privilege of, and the honor of, uh, living with Scott Hahn and his family working as his research assistant for the next three and a half years. And during that time, I was really, uh, perplexed because I loved Aquinas through Father Garah Grande again, John Paul ii, teacher on Predestination, and realized this Dominican, uh, theologian and priest had written many, many, many things about all of sacred theology. And so I liked him, but then I read other professors, philosophers and theologians, some living and some dead.
Speaker 0 00:17:00 And I realized that it was a little hard to understand, uh, the truth about God. There were many quote unquote perspectives. And it was during those three and a half years that I began to read all of these people and discover, first of all, that were not about perspectives, viewpoints were about an object. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the reality. And I basically, this wasn't planned, uh, God's province. I'm very grateful. I kind of, after three and a half years into this present day, concluded Father Garu is basically right. <laugh>. And so from Father Garu, I learned about the Dominicans since you asked about that. And the Dominican order is founded in 1216, and they're known as the Order of preachers. That's why after every Dominican's name, you see a comma, and then the letters o p order of preachers. And so after spending time with Dr. Hahn and learning from him about, uh, his very, uh, compelling, uh, project of uniting scripture and theology, and he too appreciates Gary Gulu Grae, then I had, uh, the great joy of meeting one of your other faculty members, one of your colleagues, uh, father Roman Cesario, whose work I had long admired on St.
Speaker 0 00:18:15 Thomas Aquinas. And he was one of the first Dominicans I met. And when you meet, as you know, so much time with him, this is a man who has no doubts that reality is real and that truth is knowable. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I had never met a priest, a man, a theologian, a philosopher who just lived every moment in light of this truth, reality oriented, he's deeply a contemplative. And he told me so. Well, the reason I'm like, this is because of the order of creatures of a Dominican, I'm a Dominican. And so my discernment wasn't complicated because I just saw from my early reading, St. Thomas, who was a Dominican, and then meeting Dr. Han, who loved St. Thomas, and then meeting Father Sari and reading more Dominicans, um, and benefiting from authors like yourself who wrote about Aquinas St. Thomas. Uh, that's how I ended up here.
Speaker 2 00:19:08 Wow. That's that's really beautiful. And, uh, for those who may not know my, and, and you can correct me here or teach me as well, because I think there are kind of two mottoes that are sometimes associated with the Dominicans. I think one's formal and one's informal. One is Veritas truth. Uh, and so, right. It's yes, we love right Jesus Christ, but we love Jesus Christ cuz he is the truth, the way, the truth in life, because he is the way to the source of all truth, who is God. Right. Uh, and so that sense of Veritas truth, uh, and then also this idea, right. Of, um, uh, you know, uh, handing on to others that which has been contemplated, how do you, or which, by the way, which are, are either of those two actually the motto? And then how do you, I
Speaker 0 00:19:55 Think you're absolutely right. Yes, you're absolutely right. Truth is the motto very to us. Yes. And, uh, the unofficial motto. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, to, to, to contemplate and hand on to others that which you have contemplated, which is God mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that comes from the sumo g saint master work, as you know, that is the unofficial motto. And it's interesting, this may strike our listeners, uh, peculiar, you know, this emphasis on truth. Again, we fear kind of an overly intellectual conception of things, but all we mean by that, you know, everyone, no one's against love. No one's gonna say, you know what? I really think there's too much love in the world. No one's gonna say that <laugh>. And what we would say, the Dominicans, and we think we're not being original here. This is just the truth is that the truth is that there's no such thing as a loving lie.
Speaker 2 00:20:42 Mm.
Speaker 0 00:20:43 Wow. That's impossible. Wow. So, obviously love is important. Charity is the most, uh, is the form of all of the virtues. That's what unites us to God. But if you don't have truth, then you really don't have true love. There's no such thing as a fake love. And Eric SAT's love. And so what I, so somebody were to ask maybe what a listener saying, okay, all these names Gary Gillig, Grande St. Thomas, father Saari, I know about Scott Hanah, but everybody else, I'm very lost, <laugh>. And they say, what is St. Thomas Aquinas's? What is he all about? Is he just a smart old medieval monk or fryer? No, here's what I would say. I would say St. Thomas Aquinas was an intellectual, or we could say a spiritual architect. Now, what do we mean by that? Well, if you go to France or Italy or any of, or even England and Germany, and look at the old church buildings or the monasteries, they're all structured very, uh, precisely.
Speaker 0 00:21:44 There's the place for the chapel, and there's the place for the refactory where you eat. There's the, the dormitory where you sleep. There's the library where you study. So in terms of the architecture of the monastery, everything has its proper place. It's perfectly pointed, ordered. And in the center is the chapel God. And they viewed, the monks viewed God as the center that shaped your whole life. You're eating, you're studying, you're sleeping, you're recreating, went around God. And then, as you know very well, Michael, the time monastic life, life in a monastery every hour of every day has a purpose. Some is for work, much of it's for prayer. Some of it's for study, some of it's for recreation. And so what, and this is because monks live around God. They're ordered to God, and they're supposed to focus on God and their life, their monastic life is bears the shape, both in architecture and in time of this, God-centered this.
Speaker 0 00:22:42 And so what Aquinas did is he took that he was a religious, he was a fryer, he was a Dominican, he lived this kind of life, is what he did, is he basically said, I want to make God the center of my thinking and of my heart. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And therefore he put every truth, every doctrine, every principle, both of reason and of faith in kind of a spiritual monastery and intellectual monastery. So don't be intimidated, dear listeners, if you feel I could, I've tried to read Aquinas on the internet, and it makes no sense to me. All you really need to know to get the heart of Aquinas is that just as St. Benedict founded monastic life in the western world, just as St. Dominic, the founder of the Dominicans, brought monastic life to the heart of civilization, the city God raised up this great St. St. Thomas Aquinas to bring monastic order, which is to say an order around God to God and about God to the order of ideas, truth and our contemplation of reality. So what is St. Thomas? What is tomism about? It's about an intellectual monasticism where God shapes everything that we think. And that's exactly the verse you started with. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. He was about the transformation of the mind, the renewal of the mind around God.
Speaker 2 00:24:02 Great. Well, uh, thanks so much. That's a great, great way of trying to think even about all of Aquinas's teaching his summa theolog his great work. Right? That in part we begin to see the importance of the parts when we see the order of the whole. Uh, and I think in some ways, that's one thing that often is students today, and maybe as moderns, we're very good at seeing parts. We lost the ability to see the hole. And what Aquinas is helping us do is when you see the big picture of God and everything coming from everything being organized around God, uh, in all of creation and in all of his revelation, uh, then everything begins to fit into place. Right. And I think Aquinas, that's partly why, uh, he's ever, you know, almost, uh, as, as Augustine described, God, it reminds me that Aquinas is teaching us like ever ancient, ever new because Amen. In a way, you can always grow a new tree. You can always add a tree to Aquinas's thinking because he shows you the whole forest. Uh, so let's, uh, take a quick break and then we'll come back. Uh, and, uh, let's really dive into how to study theology and get into some practical tips and suggestions.
Speaker 3 00:25:13 You're listening to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. If you'd like to support our mission, we invite you to prayerfully consider joining our Annunciation Circle, a monthly giving program aimed at supporting our staff, faculty, and Catholic faith formation. You can visit
[email protected] to learn more. Thank you for your continued support. And now let's get back to the show.
Speaker 2 00:25:40 Welcome back to the show. And so I have on my guest with us today, father Cajetan Cudi, uh, Dominican, uh, who's a professor of moral and systematic theology at the Dominican House of Studies. And we want to spend a little time today talking about Right. How to study theology. Uh, and again, uh, this, when, when, when I think about this idea of studying theology, I, I can't help but think about, uh, St. Jose Maria Escriva, uh, one of the great 20th century saints. Uh, and he would say that he wanted people to have the piety of children and the doctrine of theologians. And he actually wanted, you know, lay members of, uh, Opus Day to over their lifetime, almost, to get the same kind of theological education that priests would get. Obviously priests would get it in a short period of time, but they might get it a couple weeks a year. But this idea that studying the truth about God really matters. So let's kind of begin, uh, with a little, just some, some, uh, what are some things that you would say to people that maybe are convicted, want to study theology more? Uh, but let's begin with those who are, maybe they're, you know, studying engineering at a, you know, large state school. Maybe they're working, uh, as a, a banker somewhere. Maybe they're, uh, home raising children just right. So like all these different sorts of people, where might they begin?
Speaker 0 00:27:09 So the first thing I, very practically, I would say that when we watch E W T N or listen to podcasts like this mm-hmm. <affirmative> or good talks, and we become very excited about learning more about God, immediately we think I have to stop what I'm doing. Go to grad school. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> become a professor of theology, or a catechist, <laugh>, he's Dr. Professor. Do nasal laugh. No. And that's, I would say first you might, maybe you should do that, but probably not. So that's very important. First thing is to study theology does not mean that you leave your family, your work <laugh> and go to a monastery and begin something. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:27:46 I love it. Every time a student, uh, first talks to me about wanting to go to a graduate school or wanting to a doctorate, I always begin by trying to talk them out of it. Yes. Um, and, uh, and obviously, and again, in some ways, if they push through that, then maybe that's, cuz that's really what they wanna do. But I always tell 'em, we need, of course, all lay people or, or, and, and preach should be well-formed theologically. Right. And that's really a calling for all of us as part of our baptized. Right. If we are rela, I mean, if we are relatively well-informed intelligent people, we ought to have certainly theological knowledge that is up to, and at least at par with the rest of our, is about the world and
Speaker 0 00:28:25 Things. Amen. Yes. And, and it's because to go back to one of our earlier themes, everyone is called to have a spiritual life. Mm-hmm. And there's no such thing as a non-intellectual spirituality. So whether you're a 90 year old grandmother or a 12 year old, uh, you know, child or young person getting ready to think about college, all of us are called to, uh, the spiritual life and therefore called to know, study something about God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So the, that's the first thing. Second thing, I would make s a distinction that might surprise a number of listeners. Usually the first thing we do when we say, I wanna study about God and God's immaterial, I can't find him. I know he's in heaven and he's in the tabernacle, but when I go and talk to him, he doesn't talk back. So we immediately then go to the Bible or to the catechism.
Speaker 0 00:29:13 Now, this is where we have to make a distinction. The Bible is the holy written Word of God. The Word of God is broader than the Bible. It's sacred tradition. It is includes the scriptures and tradition both. But the Bible is the unique, is a unique and prized expression. However, the Bible is not God. Hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it's a subtle point, but I noticed more and more amongst both laypeople and grad students in theology and even professors, we have kind of made theology almost like a Bible study. Now, again, to clarify, the Bible is a very sacred book. It's God is the, the divine author with many human authors working together. But the Bible is an instrument which is meant to bring us to God himself. We could know, the devil knows that book in front of you, Michael. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> better than anybody else, but he is not going to heaven.
Speaker 0 00:30:09 Secondly, no, learning about theology does not mean as a end studying theologians, even wonderful ones like St. Thomas Aquinas. So to be a theologian to know about God is not as an end. I want to know everything Aquinas knew, or everything the church fathers knew, or everything St. John Paul do knew. No. The so my, this is really, it sounds might sound pedantic, but it's true theology in its literal definition means the study of God or even speech about God. And so the first thing we have to do is think about what does it mean to study God? It does not mean to study a book as an end or a theologian as an end, or even the Bible as an end purpose, the final stopping point. But rather with through the Bible and with theologians, both living and the saints of the past to look closely to God. I have a feeling you want to say something
Speaker 2 00:31:08 Else. Yeah. No, I think that's, I think that's so well put. And it reminds me that fetus Raio John Paul II actually, and, and in part there, he's really defending the integrity of the Bible and defending the integrity of the Word of God, first in part, written in scripture as capable of mediating divine truths. Uh, and in the midst of that, he also says, but we must not fall into a bism. That idea that we can't. Right. The, the Bible is part of the way, and it's kind of like the premier written way. It's the written word of God. Uh, but it's meant to communicate to us truths that are that who Jesus Christ is. Uh, and, and if we only stick with aism, we could be limited to perhaps being worried that we have to stick with the words or the images only of scripture when the church had to come up with using other words, famously right.
Speaker 2 00:32:11 In, uh, naia the church said that Christ or the son was homo uss with the father, consubstantial with the Father, even though the word homo uss and consubstantial are not in scripture. Right. The word trinity safeguards the mystery of Jesus Christ as the revelation of the Father, but isn't, again, not in scripture. So, so I think that is something that yeah. He mentions, and I, I like too, the fact that the catechism at one point says, right, Christianity is not a religion of the book, it's a religion, religion of the person, Jesus Christ. Although I do remind people that it is a religion with a book.
Speaker 0 00:32:44 Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And many books, Stephen. Yes, yes, of course. Magisterial. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:32:49 Yeah. Yes. So I love that. But no, but I do think that's a great thing because I also think, too is if people go to, and, and even if we look at, say second Timothy, right? Three 16, beautiful line about scripture, uh, right. All scriptures inspired by God, profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training and righteousness that the man of God may be complete equipped for every good work. Again, scripture's awesome. It's inspired by God. Right. You know, it's, it's, it's inherent as long as we're understanding it according to the teachings of the church, but it's for the purpose of training us in righteousness, for adjusting our minds to the reality that is God. Uh, and that does in a way, force us to kind of go beyond scripture. Right. Scripture itself raises questions in some ways that scripture itself can't answer. Uh, and I sometimes reminds students too, is that there's a beautiful sense in which we completely believe, right.
Speaker 2 00:33:42 Uh, in, in the, you know, truthfulness of scripture. And at the same time, remember that either a lot of it, sometimes they're gonna be using metaphorical texts, quick expressions, uh, that you're gonna also have times where, you know, Paul is also just dealing with a crisis in Corinth. So he writes a letter to Corinth. There's amazing theology, there's amazing proclamation of who Jesus Christ is the reality of the resurrection. It's a beautiful line, right. In first Corinthians 15, where he says, right, if Christ is not raised, we are the most to be of all pitied, or we are the most, uh, pitiable of all people. Uh, right. But you can't get the entire, like he wasn't writing a treaties. So you have to, you know, kind of gain these insights, but recognize that we also have to kind of move from them to try to understand God. So I think that is a beautiful, uh, way of beginning.
Speaker 0 00:34:32 Yeah. And yes, absolutely everything you say, I, I agree with 100%. And yeah, the Bible is precious. The magisterial texts are precious. Certainly the works of Aquinas, Augustine, Iran, Aus Athenasius, all the great fathers and doctors of the church are precious, but they are not God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you can make books Mm. And theologians and ideas about books and theologians and even ideas about God, you can make them idols. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's what we're, that's, so the two negative things. One, you don't have to change your life to study theology, to study God, because everyone's called to have a spiritual life, which is to say, a life where your intellect searches for the truth of God. Secondly, don't the theology is about God. It's, and it's indirectly as an instrument, as an aid about the theologians. Because I like to think, if we look at the, the, the theologians or the, the, the, the writers of theology, many of them great use, very useful, many of them saints.
Speaker 0 00:35:32 But if we think of them like a telescope, Hmm. God is huge, but he's a little elusive to our comprehension more than a little, it's like a planet far away. And through a telescope we can see more clearly the profound God, just like we can see through a telescope more profoundly the planet. But what we can do to, especially today, is now instead of looking at like Aquinas, how did he set up through his theological contemplation, his telescope, what we've done is now we turn our telescopes and we're just looking at Aquinas. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, or I'm looking at, you know, professor dph, I'm looking at Father Mancini or Professor Nud, you know, I'm listening professors here. And what I do is I do look to them, okay, DPH is a smart guy, a holy guy. He sees God, I wanna see him clearly. God clearly. So I'm gonna look, how does Daphne set up his tripod?
Speaker 0 00:36:22 What kind of degrees, angles does he have? But I'm not focusing mm-hmm. On your, on you as an end. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's about God, we're looking to the planet, to God, to the, to the reality. Then the second thing I would say, I actually, I would say, uh, two books in addition to the Bible. Yeah, of course, of course. The catechism of the Catholic church. But this is gonna surprise some listeners, and it's not meant out of traditionalist reactions to anything but the Roman catechism or the catechism of the Council of Trent mm-hmm. <affirmative> with the new catechism. If you read them together, it, it's very helpful. Now, why the Roman catechism in the 16th century was the catechism that came out of the, the Church's Council of Trent. And what I find is very useful even now, is that that catechism presents very clearly and simply and in a well, uh, ordered structure, the articles of the faith. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the new catechism, of course, is the one you should cite. It's, it has priority. It's the one John Paul two promulgated. The problem is, it's almost too profound for most people. Yes. You can get lost in that. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:37:33 <affirmative>. That's, it's, it's, it has, it, it is, I mean, there's so much in it. It's, you're not just getting the forest, you're getting lots of trees. Yes. It has so many quotes from scripture Yes. From the Fathers. Right. It's, it's beautiful. Uh, and I could also imagine too, that especially as you're learning and studying it, it, it's almost like, it's like drinking from a, a fire hose. Yes. And it's a little more than you can take in at once.
Speaker 0 00:37:55 Yeah. So my co both are available on the internet. If you type in the catechism of the Council of Trent mm-hmm. <affirmative>, also known as the Roman Catechism, you can find it. I would read that It's not very long mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it talks about God, about Jesus, about the commandments, about virtue, about sin, about grace, about the sacraments, very clearly. Point, point, point. And then,
Speaker 2 00:38:16 And also, interesting, by the way, that was in a time when, uh, with the, partly with the Protestant reformation and then with the proliferation of the, uh, printing press and other things like that. Yes. You kind of had a destabilization of information. People began to get information all over the place. And it began to become, become confusing in my mind, very similar in a way to our age. Yes. Where, you know, now on the internet, it's like, even, like, there's not even Protestantism anymore. There's just a, like, there are million different flavors of Christianity or confusions or different stuff like this. And so in those times, it really is helpful. And I think that sense of the catechism of the Council of Trent was trying to go back to the creed. Hmm. Uh, the Apostles Creed as received and promulgated right. By the church. Uh, and trying to articulate that in a precise and clear way in an age, in a way of kind of, we almost kind of call it misinformation.
Speaker 2 00:39:12 And in an age of confusion. Um, that's really, you know, beautifully. But, and it's interesting too for, uh, people who may not have, you know, thought about this before, but it was the Council of Trent as well, that started seminaries. Yes. So there was a standard formation, uh, of priests, uh, rather than just having them being formed by, you know, local bishops or, you know, local cannons, uh, that might be at cathedrals. And as a result, we kind of had this huge sun is what's called the Catholic Counter Reformation, but, which was kind of silly. But anyway, but this huge Catholic, uh, vibrant expansion and reform of Catholic life for the next several centuries, uh, that was, had a huge missionary dimension, uh, generated lots of saints, uh, so many of our beloved, uh, you know, saints of that time. And so I think you're right, that sense of that clear teaching amidst lots of confusion, even though it may seem like the Council of Trent was a long time ago, it actually, I think in some ways it has, it does have a lot to share with our own age.
Speaker 0 00:40:14 Absolutely. And the parallels that's very interesting. The, the chaos and the confusion and the proliferation of ideas in the 16th century is very similar to what we're experiencing today. I mean, Gutenberg inventing the printing press, and now we have Wikipedia mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what do we, and so the catechism of the Council of Trend as a starting place mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's not the end, it's not the only thing, but it teaches the essence of the Catholic faith, which does not change, which is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Now, after you've gone through the Catechism of Trent, then I would recommend read the New Catechism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the Catechism, which also you can find on, uh, the internet on the Vatican's own website. And that's something I would say do a page or two a day, or a couple paragraph numbers a day. It's a long thing. It's a profound thing.
Speaker 0 00:41:03 And it's almost, it's theological, but it's also contemplative. But then if you want to bump it up a notch, what I would recommend, particularly for laypeople, is a spiritual author who is profoundly clear and also a great philosopher in theologian. But he, he carries his philosophy and theology lightly and uses them for the spiritual life. And that's, I think he's the greatest spiritual author of the 20th century, Louise Martinez, Archbishop of Mexico City in the early 20th century. He wrote two books. The First I'd recommend, which is available reprinted in English on Amazon, is, uh, secrets of the Interior Life. If there's one book that I would give to every Catholic faithful to read that summarizes with profundity and simplicity, the theology of the spiritual life with practical points, it's Mar Archbishop Martinez, Luis Martinez, secrets of the Interior Life First, and then his book also Available Only Jesus Incredible as a Thomas, as a philosopher, as a theologian, that's all there. His favorite author was Cardinal Katon, a great Thomas of the 16th century. But he wrote so profoundly, I haven't seen a better articulation of the Gospel with That's
Speaker 2 00:42:23 Beautiful. I know that we've, uh, assigned his book, the Sanctifier Very good Holy Spirit, but I think is the third book, probably maybe in the trilogy, uh, but the on the Holy Spirit for, uh, understanding really moral theology as a flourishing of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the person. That's really beautiful. I also, I don't know if you have any thoughts on, I, I found, um, uh, I think it's Monsignor Eugene Boylan. Sure. Uh, this tremendous lover Yes. Uh, as a great articulation as well of this intense theological precision in terms of who Jesus Christ is and the what, what he does in moving from creation to the incarnation, to the church, to the sacraments, to ultimately our union. Right. With God. And, but tying in a way, both the doctrine and the spirituality. But those are wonderful suggestions about, um, mon uh, Luis Martinez, Luis
Speaker 2 00:43:17 Martinez. And those, uh, three books I think are, are wonderful. Um, just, I wanted just to say, uh, one more thing before we kind of start turning to our closing. But, uh, St. Thomas Aquinas, uh, wrote a, a wonderful letter, or at least it's attributed to him, uh, to Brother John on how to study. And anyway, it's, it's short. It's actually, um, I don't know. It's probably not, you know, 300 words or something. Uh, so it's easy to look up online, uh, the letter to Brother John as sometimes it shows up, uh, in there. You know, a couple things that strike me is he does say, though, that we don't want to jump into the ocean when we study. We wanna learn by little streams. We wanna not go into hard things, but we wanna begin with easy things. And I think this is really important.
Speaker 2 00:44:03 We don't begin theological reading and studying with the most difficult issues, <laugh>. Right. We begin with, right. The easier things, let's try to make sure we really understand, you know, something like who Jesus Christ is or, um, you know, or the, the natures, again, of the sacraments, the commandments creation before we get into kind of, uh, complicated, maybe thorny, uh, either thorny philosophical issues or complicated historical issues. So I think there is that important idea. I also love that he makes a suggestion in there, the distinction between kind of, you, you have to somewhat discipline your intellect. Curiosity is actually understood by the medievals to be a vice, uh, curiosity toss, which just means kind of like aimless curiosity versus Studio ATAs. We have to not be just curious. We have to be studious. Father Victor White, who writes a little commentary on it, actually says, we should have to just as we have to dis we have to have chastity to somewhat order healthily our sable desires. We have to have chastity of the intellect by which we order healthily, our desire to know. And studiousness is that kind of virtue. Uh, and anyways, I think he just says a lot of things there. Is there anything kind of from that letter that you, um, think listeners or that has struck you?
Speaker 0 00:45:25 Yeah, I think it's, it's what you said. I've, we had, when I was a student brother many years ago, one of our dear, one of the brothers in the studio with me in Washington where I now teach, I was a student. His name was Brother John. And when he discovered this letter, he's like, I feel like, and he had a hard time studying mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he said, I feel like this brother letter was written for me, <laugh>. And I said, you know, brother John, maybe it was Ah, yeah. And but that blend of both, as you said today, not every person should get into every single issue mm-hmm. <affirmative> either because it doesn't affect them or because it's beyond their capacity. And Thomas talks about that, but also the fact that this is about starting with the things that are most important, that suture state in life, that suit where you're at. And then before you go, what does he, he says something to the effect that you have to, before you go into the wine cellar, you have to, what do you recall the exact phrase there? It's been a long 10 since I've
Speaker 2 00:46:22 Read that. Yeah. Let me, um, let me just check it. Um,
Speaker 0 00:46:24 But basically you can't, as you said, you can't jump, there we
Speaker 2 00:46:26 Go, love your cell by making constant use of it. You have to like, kind of spend time studying before you go to the wine cellar, which is I think from Bernardo cvo, which is really this kind of more heightened spiritual monastic union.
Speaker 0 00:46:39 Yes, yes. So, practically concretely, I would say that there in the end, there's no better starting point in terms of topics for the beginning to study God mm-hmm. <affirmative> than the creed. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and no theologian, not even Thomas Aquinas himself, St. John Paul II Benedict, the 16th. Not even they ever got beyond the articles of the faith mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what we say in the creed, it's one of the holiest moments mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the entire mass when we say, I believe in one God. And you recite all of the, the summary, the heart of all of God's divine revelation. And it's about God himself, about what God has done for us, about what happens when God transforms us. So if there's a beginner that wants to begin to study, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> theology, start by the creed, getting books, listening to reliable expositions, explanations of the creed, and then to, if there's any, you know, uh, world class theologians listening to this podcast that you host, I would say I would gently, humbly encourage 'em to remember that even for you great, brilliant professor of theology, you and I and Professor DoveNet, we never get beyond the creed.
Speaker 0 00:47:52 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the end, as Aquinas says in the beginning of the Summa, question one, all of theology is contemplation. That starts from the, the principles of the faith, the principles of theology, which are the articles of the faith mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:48:04 <affirmative>. Yeah. And I just think through those principles of the creed, we come to know the reality of Amen God. Amen. Who has revealed himself Amen. Through them. Uh, that's so we'll put in. I, I'd love to, if, if we ever get the chance, I'd love to have you back on the show and maybe talk a little bit about maybe, you know, that second or third stage for those who actually might want to, you know, study a little bit more, maybe take a class here or there, or different elements, or perhaps even those who, who do wanna become catechists or theologians, because I'm sure there is so much more, uh, that we could say. But, you
Speaker 0 00:48:36 Know, can I just say one more thing about you? Absolutely, sir. And the one thing for the listeners, and he did not tell me to say this, but a very excellent introduction to St. Thomas Aquinas is, uh, Dr. Dph and Professor Matthew Lever's co-authored book, knowing the Love of Christ. So if there's anyone out this, I'd like to learn more about this Aquinas guy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> published by no University of Notre Dame Press. It's a simple, small, clearly faithfully written, articulated book, knowing the love of Christ, it's still in print. Um, now it's an outstanding book. Uh, and so I want to me, uh, recommend this cuz you're too humble, I'm sure to do it yourself, but
Speaker 2 00:49:10 Yeah. Well, thank you, father. Uh, so I just, I want ask you three quick questions before we, uh, close. So, uh, what's a book you're reading?
Speaker 0 00:49:17 What is a book? I'm, I'm trying to work through Dostoevsky Mm
Speaker 2 00:49:21 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:49:21 <affirmative>. Um, and then, uh, in terms of Theo, it's, it's always, well, right, for the last several years I've been spending most of, a lot of time in the posterior analytics of, uh, aquinas's commentary in Aristotle's mm-hmm. <affirmative> examination of material logic. Okay. Which now all of our listeners' eyes are glazed over. But the most interesting thing would be Dostoevski. And what I find about Dostoevski interesting is that he's very good at looking at the profundity of human persons, both in the level of nature and then the level of grace mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I find a hard time reading literature because I'm not that artistically gifted, but in Dostoevsky it's fascinating. So
Speaker 2 00:49:59 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's, there's definitely that kind of, it is interesting. Sometimes you need somebody like sevki to portray reality so you can see reality. Yes. But you definitely have that contact with reality in his work. Uh, second question, what's a, what's a practice? I know, obviously Yeah, I was a Dominican and is appreciative many, right. But what's just one practice, uh, that you, uh, do on a regular basis or a daily basis that helps you draw closer to God for that kind of intellectual and spiritual union?
Speaker 0 00:50:26 So I wish we, we had another hour to talk about this mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I have a profound devotion to the holy name of Jesus. Hmm. I think the simple prayer, Jesus and Mary, I love you save souls. Just sit again and again and again. Even if you get distracted, forget. Hmm. Um, there's one famous story about the desert father, is that there was a, a young monk that went to the desert to become a saint. That was his goal with a lot of a zeal. And there's this wise old monk high in the mountains in the cave. And the young monk goes there and says, father, teach me the secret to holiness. And the old monk says, okay, here's what you're gonna do. And the young monk gets out his pen and writes it down and says, say the Jesus, I love you, uh, 1000 times and come back tomorrow. And the young monk very excitedly runs off. Next day he comes back, okay. To the older monkey says, I've done that. What do I do now? <laugh>? And the old monk says, now, you do that every day for the rest of your life. I think we can't get into it now that the theology and the philosophy associated with the holy name of Jesus Wow. Is powerful. So that's what I do.
Speaker 2 00:51:30 That's beautiful. It almost reminds me of Aquinas. There's a great scene at the, in his life where he's written, uh, uh, the treatment of the Eucharist in the third part of the Suma towards the end of his life. And he puts it before the altar of the crucifix, and he just says, you know, wants to put all of his writing. And he says, here, Jesus, it's, this is, this is for you. I'm offering it to you. And he has a vision, right. Where Jesus says to him, Thomas, you've written well of me. You could have whatever you want. What would you like? Mm-hmm. Uh, and uh, he says, right, nothing but you. Yes. None. Missy Tay, nothing but you. Jesus. So I think there's something really beautiful that, and then a last question is, is there an idea or maybe a f like really, is there a false belief you held about God at some point in your life that right. Caused harm in a way to your life? And what was the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:52:23 I think it was, I had, yes. That's a very good question. There were many, I'm sure, but the one that comes to mind was that I always knew God was real. I always knew God was lovable, and I always knew God was infinite and perfect, all the attributes that we know. But in that mix, I concluded wrongly that we could actually know him. In other words, like he's almost like, he's so high up, you can't really have any true knowledge about him. Hmm. It's only kind of approximated.
Speaker 2 00:52:55 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:52:55 <affirmative>, and that's wrong. We can, like the creed, we know with absolute certitude, real aspects, attributes of God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, even if we don't comprehend or exhaust him
Speaker 2 00:53:05 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So when we say God is one, it's true that ideas true. So earlier you kind of thought that like all words not just are incomplete, they're really just kind of like not fully true. Yes. Right. In a way. And so there's a certain sense of which that's really beautifully
Speaker 0 00:53:21 Put. And the reason why is that that was wrong is because God can use natural things and really unite them to himself. Mm. Words, concepts, ideas, just like he assumed a natural thing, like a human nature.
Speaker 2 00:53:33 Yeah. And of course, ultimately when we call him Jesus, right, that's right. That's he is God. Amen. He is in a way and amen. It's complicated to understand that the creator is also the creature, but that's the beauty of the incarnation. Well, father, thank you so much for being on our show. Anyway. There's a, and I love those, uh, tips about, uh, those three books from, uh, Luis Martinez. Uh, those will be great things for readers, uh, to look up. And, uh, anyway, thank you so much for being on our show.
Speaker 0 00:53:57 It's a great choice. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:53:59 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
