Speaker 0 00:00:00 Anybody who leaves the Lord of the Rings is nudged Christ Woods, shall we say, from wherever they are. So that is a very powerful evangelical weapon in itself. The Catholic dimension of the Lord of the Rings is there subsumed within the story.
Speaker 2 00:00:22 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Duffey, and today I'm joined by, uh, Joseph Pierce, uh, author, colleague, you know, one of our, uh, writer and residences in the early days of Ave Maria University, and returning this semester to teach a course, uh, with us. Uh, so we're just delighted to have you here, Joseph.
Speaker 0 00:00:43 It's wonderful to be back. So thanks for having
Speaker 2 00:00:45 Me. Great. And I am excited today to talk about the Lord of the Rings and, uh, ton's, uh, work, um, his life. Right. This, this great story. And, uh, you've, you've written a whole book on right, Toan Man and Myth, A Literary Life, diving into both Tolkien's Life as well as, uh, the Lord of the Rings and, and helping readers to understand it. So maybe, you know, to begin with, uh, just a, a couple big questions. Uh, could you say a word about, you know, why is Lord of the Rings such a popular book? It's really shocking.
Speaker 0 00:01:26 It is. It's a shocking, astonishing, surprising, um, actually, the motivation for writing that book, uh, talking about a myth, was the response of the lit art, so-called lit art in England. Mm-hmm. Um, to the emergence of the Lord of is the most popular book of the 20th century in a number of national opinion polls, one by the, uh, TV channels and books, uh, selling chains. Um, and the lit art responded, you know, one of them said, this just shows the 40 of teaching people to read. That's how negative they were. And it was clear to me these people never even read the book. So they'd formed the judgment based upon a, a presumption mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and, and dismissed it accordingly. So I thought, well, I wanna defend Toki, and I want to defend the Lord of the beings. I also want to expose the ignorance of these people that don't know what they're talking about. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and of course, if they did know what they were talking about, they would be probably even more horrified, because the Lord of the Rings is a profoundly Catholic work. Mm-hmm. And, and, um, you know, talking said, and I'm quoting him word for word here, the Lord of the Rings is of course, a fundamentally religious and Catholic work, unconsciously at first consciously in the revision.
Speaker 2 00:02:34 Well, that's a, that's that's quite a big, um, that's a big place to leave us on. So how now it's the right most was, at least in a lot of polls, was one of the most pop, the most popular book Right. In the 20th century.
Speaker 0 00:02:48 Yes. And in fact, there were, there were other polls that it was voted the most popular book of all time in other polls ahead of Dickens and Oh, wow. K Austin.
Speaker 2 00:02:56 So clearly, um, many people love the story, uh, and do not see it in any sense of religious or Catholic work. Uh, so how would you, how would you answer that? Like, how can that be that people can so love a book that without being religious or Catholic, which to said was unconsciously at first and then unconsciously in the revision of course, of religious and Catholic work?
Speaker 0 00:03:26 Well, it's subtle. Uh, absolutely subtle. And, and if someone's ignorant, they will not, uh, I, I get the su subtlety of it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but the, the fir first thing I would say is, so yes, it doesn't preach. No, no, no, no literature should ever preach it. It destroys the, the art of the storytelling if you preach. But anybody who reads the Lord of the Rings is nudged closer to Christ, is not, you're not gonna leapfrog from being an atheist, probably <laugh> being an atheist to being a Catholic by reading the Lord of the Rings. But you'll be moved away from your atheism towards Catholicism. So anybody who reads the Lord of the Rings is being nudged, Christ Woods, shall we say, from wherever they are. So that is a very powerful evangelical weapon in itself. But see, but the, the, the Catholic dimension in the Lord of the Rings is, is, is is there subsumed within the story. Now, what is the ring, the date the ring's destroyed, the date, the date that a fellowship leave, RDE, these are all ways in which Christ embeds the Christian liturgical year into the story.
Speaker 2 00:04:24 What, what are some of those dates for, you know, for listeners? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:04:28 Well, the most important thing we need to know if we want to unpack mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the deep theological significance of the Lord of the ring is the date on which the ring is destroyed. Mm-hmm. So with, with, with the Ring is destroyed on March the 25th. Now, for non-Christian readers, that's a, that's a date that means nothing. Right. But for Christians, that's, that's the, the annunciation. And really the annunciation is a more important feast day than Christmas. Right. Because life begins a conception and not at birth. So God becomes, man, the word is made flesh on March 25th, not December the 25th.
Speaker 2 00:04:59 So the annunciation is when the angel Gabriel, um, right. Makes the annunciation to Mary, Mary says, right. Let it be done to me, according to your word. And then Jesus is like, the word is incarnate in her Right Word becomes flesh. So that's when, that's, that's the conception. That's why we celebrate it March 25th, and then December 25th, nine months later, we celebrate the Nativity of Christ.
Speaker 0 00:05:23 Right. So, so basically, if you take the, uh, and also, but the other important thing is that the me early church and medieval church believed that the crucifixion also happened on March 25th. Most people don't know that because, you know, good Friday is a movable feast. We don't assign any particular date to it. Okay. Because it's not on the same date every year. But the historical event, of course, happened on one particular specific date mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the early church. And, and the medieval church believed that that was March 25th. So this one date is the most significant date in the year from a Christian understanding of things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, its is when the word becomes flesh, but also when Christ dies for us on the cross, which taken together the resurrection is our redemption. Mm. So what's destroyed by that, it's the power of sin. Right. Uh, and, uh, what is, uh, original sin is the one sin to rule them all in, in the darkness behind them. What
Speaker 2 00:06:16 Is the so slow down here? Yeah. Because that's, that went really fast there, <laugh>. And, um, so you're suggesting the ring is somehow original sin. Would you just expand that, you know, for our listeners And, and, and for me, I think that's a fascinating
Speaker 0 00:06:31 Yeah. So what, what talking's doing, and he's a medievalist, so he's using allegorical techniques, for instance, that the Bear Wolff poet use uses the segra and the green, uh, Knight Poet uses that, um, Dante uses, right. That, that the whole, that the divine comedy happens over the Trium. Right. Begins on holy Thursday and ends on East Easter during the Octa of Easter. So this is a technique to actually embed deep theological significance by connecting it to the liturgical year. So Master 25th is the date of the annunciation out of the crucifixion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that, that together with the reservation destroys the power of sin. The ring, the power of the ring is destroyed on that date. So there's, therefore there's, there's a, there's, there's a synonymous connection. Yeah. Between the one ring and the one sin, you know, the one ring to all them mourn the darkness behind them, the one sin to all them, all in the darkness behind them.
Speaker 0 00:07:20 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And once you understand that, then the rest of it begins to unpack itself. You can see the power of the ring, putting the ring on is the act of sin. And when you put the ring on, you excommunicate yourself from the good world that God made. You become invisible. But you become more visible than ever toson because you've entered his world. You, you've entered his dominion, and if you put the ring on habitually, you mize yourself, you shrivel, you shrink, you become the, the, the, the, the wreck of the good hobbit you were meant to be and become this addicted re So, you know, all, so you see the, the, the impact of sin on the psyche, uh, is when you become addicted to power of the ring. Sin always
Speaker 2 00:07:59 Has, and the ring, it seems like, I mean, how would you, how does the ring, the ring always seems attractive, right? Um, so say more about that, because it seems like right, people always want the ring, they call it their precious, um, how could we call sin Our precious,
Speaker 0 00:08:16 One of the, one of the buzzwords of our modern culture is self-empowerment. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the ring, uh, offers us self-empowerment where we ha will have more power than everybody else. We can do what we like, we become invisible. We have powers no one else has. That's enticing. Mm-hmm. Right. The, the, the, but the, there's a price that comes to self-empowerment, which ultimately is self degradation. Right. We ize ourselves, we actually become a slave to the power that we've, that we've, uh, given ourselves to. So that, that's, that's the power of, of, of sin to destroy as the power of the ring is the power of sin. Yeah. We allows us to do what we like, and that sounds great, but there was, there were consequences that ultimately slavery, we become slaves to the evil that we've mm-hmm. <affirmative> that we've sought to. We, we've sort, we've sought to empower ourselves to evil. We actually become, uh, slaves. In other words, you lose all power to its power because it is more powerful than we are. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:09:09 So in part then, if we wanna think about maybe some of the theological implications of this one would be that, right. I, I think I remember hearing, I dunno if this was an older priest talking to a younger priest who was gonna start hearing confessions. Uh, and I think he said something like, you know, don't worry, don't worry, son. You know, like the thing about original sin is it's not very original. Right. You know, um, right. It tends to repeat itself. Uh, but it's also interesting that, like, why does the, why does the tradition, why does the church tell us about original sin? The initial sin of maybe even of, especially of Adam and Eve, this desire for knowledge on our own right. Not knowledge that's derivative, that's received from, uh, from God. And in a way it's kind of shocking that every single sin, be it, you know, I don't know, you know, stealing or, um, you know, or adultery or, uh, you know, I mean, anyway, countless, uh, uh, sins are all that Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:10:14 Right. That, that, that in a way, they seem all unique. They seem all individual, but they have a common root. Uh, and you know, that's something I think that's really kind of powerful when we begin to see that original sin isn't so to speak something that happened in the past. It's something that's happening in us. Yes. And we begin to see it's the story of our lives. Yes. That my story of my life is a consistent desire to somehow, right. It's this, it's this egocentric attempt to recreate the world around my wishes. And, and in that sense, right. That, and, and one of the things that's, so let's just shift for a moment then. How does, you know, uh, creating this incredible story, uh, help us see these problems? So, you know, maybe could you talk about a couple characters who, uh, want to use the ring and you know, it, it maybe, you know, you can, you can talk about whatever you want, but you obviously have the great character of Gollum who, uh, loves the ring, uh, the character of Boer, kind of a great man who wants to use the ring to do good, apparently, to free his city.
Speaker 2 00:11:26 Uh, and then also maybe the character of Saman. Um, and I know, uh, who's uh, right, one of the, the wizard, the great wizard who, who falls somehow. But it, it's not entirely clear, you know, what his wishes are. It seems to be kind of a wish for power. But anyway, maybe, you know, just talk a little bit about those different characters and, uh, how it is that they somehow maybe justify the use of the ring.
Speaker 0 00:11:54 Yeah. So it's a great question, and I, I'll begin with the first person you mentioned, BIR. Okay. Now, the key, the key thing about Bir is he is actually the one who represents us. Mm. Uh, he's the every man figure, and I'll explain that. And it's very simple. He, we, we divide this, you know, all literary meaning has to ha be rooted in the literal meaning, okay? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So the fellowship of the ring, right? Ha It has four hobbits, one wizard, one king, one elf, one dwarf, and one man bir I i is at the council of El Wand as the representative of Men of Humanity. So he's our representative. Right. And that's a sobering prospect, right? Because he's the one that, that, that would use the ring. Yeah. He's
Speaker 2 00:12:40 The one who breaks the fellowship.
Speaker 0 00:12:41 He breaks the fellowship. And that's,
Speaker 2 00:12:43 Which is, that's kind of, uh, that's, that's a, that's, that's a hard thing to hear. Right?
Speaker 0 00:12:48 We
Speaker 2 00:12:48 Are the problem. We all of a sudden
Speaker 0 00:12:49 We are the problem. Right? That's right.
Speaker 2 00:12:51 Wasn't a Chester who said that. What's wrong with the world? And you know, I am. I
Speaker 0 00:12:54 Am. Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:12:55 So, so bair, uh, this kind of courageous, manly, uh, character in a way is, is us.
Speaker 0 00:13:04 Yeah. And, but the thing is the seductive power of of, of, of, of, of the ring or of, of, of sin. So he, he wants to use the ring to save his own people. Yes. Right. From an army led by a demonn <laugh> that's basically made up comprised mostly of ORs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, so, uh, Ronald old Reagan said, you know, years ago about the Soviet Union, it was the evil empire mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which was true. But compared with Sa Juan's army of walks, <laugh>, you know, the Soviet Union is, is, is, is is child's play. So Bomb me says what? You know, the only hope we have in defeating sa Juan is to use the ring. Right. It, it, it, it, it's a gift. He says it'll be foolish not to use it. But the whys know that if you use evil means to a good end, you actually become evil.
Speaker 0 00:13:49 So even if the ring had been successful as a weapon in defeating Sal Juan, that, that, that, that, that gonda would itself then become an evil empire, uh, under the power of the ring, it's better for Goand do to, to be exterminated, to die heroically and cease to be, than to become an evil empire. Um, so Boer doesn't understand that, uh, although he dies heroically, he dies laying down his life for, for his friends. And actually the form of the final dialogue between, between, uh, AOR and Boer is the form of the sacrament of confession. So he actually makes a good confession, Avior now in persona, Christie. Right? It is it when he says, you know, I, I failed. No, you've won a great victory. You know, so he actually dies. He goes to heaven from a Christian theological perspective. Right.
Speaker 2 00:14:35 Yeah. I heard somebody say the Bir as a bit like, uh, Dante's Purgatorio, um, he's the Purgatorial character. Uh, I like that. So if, if he's the Purgatorial character who, who falls and turns and through mercy and grace is forgiven, what about Gollum? Uh, Gollum seems to be the, uh, non, somebody described it Gollum as the infernal character.
Speaker 0 00:15:01 Yeah. And I like this actually. That's good. I hadn't thought about this before. Yeah. Gollum as the infernal character and, um, <inaudible> as the por character. But before I mention mm-hmm. <affirmative>, before you go into Gola, I'd also want to mention I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say he's the paradise or, or heavenly character. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but Tolkin also gives us pir. Yes, yes. Now, and fare's, Emir's brother, in other words, that Tolkin is making the connection mm-hmm. So that we can make the connection. And Pir says that I would not pick up the ring of a side lying at the side of the road. He also says, I would not snare even an ark with a falsehood. So not the smallest, lighter the ever himself. So family, he shows us what we are called to be. Right. What we should be the saint mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> rather than the Purgatorial figure who actually still dies a saint. Yeah. So you might be thinking now, okay, well, Tokis getting very easy on us. Right. Might they become, Bo is who Ator end up in heaven, or we be Pir who are saints who go to heaven. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, that's, that's, we're getting off lightly here, but he gives us Gollum. And Gollum is also in every man figure. Gollum is the one that shows us the consequences of choosing self-empowerment, choosing the ring over, um, the Marvel law. Well,
Speaker 2 00:16:07 And so of your listeners who haven't read the Lord of the Rings, um, can you tell us about Gollum, right, as a character? What's his background? Right. What happens to him? What, what what happens during the story? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:16:18 So, so Gollum eons back before the story begins was a hobbit mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and, uh, he, uh, a acquires the, the ring by murder, murdering his friend, uh, and then becomes obsessed with the ring. So that, that obsession these to possession. And, and the word possession here is, is we do, we should be seeing in the demonic sense. Ah,
Speaker 2 00:16:39 And what, what specifically, what's the power that the ring gives garum? Well,
Speaker 0 00:16:42 It, it, it, these little power, it allows you to become invisible. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when you put it on that, and as I said, that's because you are, you're leaving the good world. The world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> sung into existence, a as we've discussed in the, in, in the other podcast. Um, but you, you enter sa Juan's world, you enter the demonic world. So the more that you, the more that you do that, the more you use the ring mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the more you're actually abusing your own goodness, truth and beauty, and you shrink and you shrivel. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I, for me, Gollum, who, you know, at the end, he's just this shrunk and shriveled, uh, pathetic figure has destroyed himself through his desire for self-empowerment that we can give him. To me, he's one of the most realistic characters. I mean, it has, it holds up a mirror to the psychological reality of one who has basically become so addicted to his sin that he's sold his soul to it. Yeah. And that's basically where Golem is. And I like the verb, uh, to Mize that if, if we, if we choose a life of sin, we are columnizing ourselves. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:43 So within the story, uh, and within the character of Gollum, and in the Lord of the Rings, uh, we discover right, that Gollum was first Smiggle the Hobbit, and he becomes Gollum. But Tolkin does a very kind of strange thing throughout the story. Uh, Gollum is always talking to himself. Smiggle and Goum are having this internal dialogue. Uh, what's the significance of that?
Speaker 0 00:18:10 Well, this is, again, this is, this is, uh, psychological realism that the, the sinner in moments of lucidity mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, realizes that he, he, he sold himself to the worst half the, the Gollum in himself. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the, and, and the pure, the childlike remnant of who that person is, the smale, you know, is seeking liberation from, from the Gola myself. And, and, and what Tolkin does is through these dialogues, he shows that it's a battle. And, and, and, you know, Alexander, so Ison says that a battle between good and evil takes place in every human heart. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So all of has to have in this dialogue all the time mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right between, between the, the, the, the, the, the saint we're called to be, and, and, and the sinner that we're tempted to be, to be. And, and that struggle is a real one. And I think that what Toki does, externalizes that through this in, in, in, in a dialogue between the two sides of the character of Gollum. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:02 And in a way, then he's also kind of instructing us, well, not instructing, he's just, he's just like, he's just painting a picture of reality. We have the choice to be instructed by it or not. Right. But by, by, by telling this story, it's, we also see that, like, reason alone can't save us because Smiggle at times knows what's happening. Uh, there's times where he even expresses love for Frodo, uh, love almo, uh, as sort of at least an appreciation, but it's like you can't think your way out of sin. Yep. Um, you have to act your way, and ultimately that action has to be right. Um, uh, alleviated or, uh, somehow helped by, by grace. Um, but I think there's a profound, you know, I think in some ways, you know, if you think about Lewis and Toan growing up, uh, you know, being born at the end of the 19 hundreds, and, or sorry, at the end of the 18 hundreds, 19th century, there was a little bit of the kind of Victorian, uh, attempt to alleviate, uh, kind of the misery of humanity by education.
Speaker 2 00:20:08 Uh, if, if we could alleviate ignorance and poverty right. Through education and employment or something, then people would become good. Yes. Uh, and obviously it's wonderful to alleviate, right. You know, uh, if, if, if you genuinely, authentically can without abusing people, alleviating poverty is a beautiful thing. But, um, but more importantly, in a way is the fundamental merely knowledge will not conquer our broken wills. Our wills, in a way, are kind of in ng goum, you see it, it's like, uh, Gustin would describe it as the will is curved in on itself. Um, and when we're curved in on ourselves, you know, that I, I can't knowledge isn't going to be helpful, because the more knowledge I have, I can always just use as a further means to justify my hate and resentment. Right. And that's what you see happening eventually, the knowledge he has, uh, right. Gollum is able to use that knowledge to justify his resentment and hatred.
Speaker 0 00:21:09 Yes. Uh, I mean, he's, he's, he's not able to attain true, pure knowledge because he's so turned in upon himself. You know, obviously to, to get to, to attain true knowledge is to become objective in other, to engage with that which is beyond the self. So the more that we ize ourselves, the more that our knowledge is turned in upon itself, the more it becomes self obsessive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> more, we've become possessed by the by, by, by, by the thing itself, by the ring, by the sin. And we're not actually able to acquire knowledge, even though we worship knowledge in the first place, because we've made it, made it as, uh, a tool of our pride. Mm. We are actually not even able to engage with objective reality any longer. We've become complete slaves to the shrunk and shriveled self that we are mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:21:52 <affirmative>. So when we're, if, if, if we have this sense of us as kind of possessing on our own terms, parts of reality, uh, so in a way we're kind of trying to replace God with ourselves. Right. We're, uh, then we can't even really see the reality in front of us. So our knowledge becomes, in a way, broken. Yes. Uh, and, and you can see this in some ways, because how do we understand the human person, right. To understand the human person. You can't just put the human person on a scale and see how much they weigh. Right. You can't discover their value. You can't discover how you ought to treat them. You have to somehow learn that from a moral disposition to the world. Maybe just one more question before we break, and kind of going deep into the certain sense of the perversity of the rational creature, uh, and maybe after the break. We'll, let's look at some of the, uh, kind of hopeful, uh, and kind of beautiful images along the way that, uh, Lord the Rings gives us. But could you say a little bit about Saman? Right. Saman, who was saman the white, the head of the council of the, uh, wizards. And, uh, but at one time, he declares himself that he's, uh, progressed and he's become saman, the many colored Right. He wants to use the ring, maybe for himself. Uh, yeah. What, what happens with Saman? He takes
Speaker 0 00:23:14 The nietzche choice. Right? He goes beyond good and evil. Now, white is good, black is evil, the absence of the good. Right. Um, but now he doesn't, he goes, he goes beyond all of that. I'm, I'm saman of many colors. I can choose what's right and wrong, what's good and evil. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he takes that, uh, nian approach. He becomes a radical relativist, in fact. And, and that's when, um, Gaal says to him that he, who, uh, breaks a thing, um, depart.
Speaker 2 00:23:43 He is here. Yeah. And he, that breaks a thing to find out, oh, this is, sorry, this is where he says, um, I liked white better. And then so men responds white, he's sneered. It serves as a beginning. White cloth maybe died. The white page may be overwritten. The white light can be broken, in which case it is no longer white said gandolph. And he, that breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom. So, uh, let Gand have the final word. I think that's great. That's great. So, let's, uh, take a, we'll, we'll take a little break and then we'll come back.
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Speaker 2 00:24:52 So, we've considered a few instances in which the ring, the desire for the ring, uh, becomes destructive, uh, elements in which, uh, through different ways, uh, characters kind of, uh, justify to themselves. They rationalize, uh, this really dissent into really evil. And, and in this case, in the story, not simply into evil in general, but ultimately into slavery, uh, to, uh, the ring slavery to power, which is eventually going to becomes slavery to Saharan right in the story. Uh, now I wanted to turn a little bit and look at what are instances in which toan, I think also just so memorably presents, uh, countless images of hope, and of those who kind of journey along, um, even though they don't see the end. So I wanted to maybe, uh, begin with, I, I think one of the powerful things that, uh, right, the journey of the ring begins in a fellowship.
Speaker 2 00:26:04 Uh, we have stories of friendship, uh, the story of the friendship of Frodo and Sam. I wanna talk a little bit about the story, the friendship of Marion Pippen as well. Uh, and then one of the strangest friendships that is always astounding people in the story, the, the friendship of Legis, the Elf, and, uh, Gimley the dwarf. So, could you say a little bit about why, uh, just maybe about friendship in the Lord of the Rings and why friendship is somehow, I mean, that's not accidental, that it's, it's friendship somehow that works against the ring works against sin.
Speaker 0 00:26:44 Yeah. So the, the, the, the fact that at the Council of Elwanda Fellowship is formed mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. A fellowship and friendship, you know, we, we are, uh, fellows traveling together with a common cause, a common on, on a common quest for a common good. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and the, the way we will succeed in this is to sacrifice our ourselves for each other. In other words, lay, lay, lay ourselves down for the fellowship as a whole, for the common good, and for each of us as individuals. And the fact that there are un, you know, that they're the, uh, there are the unlikes, you mentioned Gimley and legis, they representatives of people that are not the same mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, but we have to, uh, transcend, overcome those differences. And in some cases, the draws and the elves, historical en amenities in order to work for a common good against a common evil.
Speaker 0 00:27:35 And so there's, there's a great, there's a great lesson there, I would say as well. But cuz I can't resist, by the way, you know, I mentioned, we mentioned the fact that, that the ring is destroyed on March 25th. In the story we're told that the fellowship of the ring leaves Riverdale in late December, uh, in one of the appendices to the story we're told. It's actually December the 25th. So, so, so the journey of photo and Sam mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, from, from Rde to Golgotha to Mount Doom, uh, is the life of Christ from birth to death. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, uh, we do need to see photo in this sense as a Christ figure. And so the ring bearer, right, uh, is the one who carries the weight of sin without himself sinning. So the, the ring in this sense, when you are ring bearer and not a ring wearer, you are cross bearer, your cross carrier. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So soro in many ways is, is someone who carries the cross for the fellowship man, for all of us, the fellowship representing us. Um, uh, so that, that we see in Frodo, both a Christ figure, uh, but also an every man figure, because we are called, we're called by Christ to take up our own cross and follow him
Speaker 2 00:28:42 By, yeah. I love that image of, uh, Frodo, the ring bearer, not the ring wearer. And, uh, that is really, uh, beautiful as he goes up to the story. Now, it's also interesting that Gandolph says, uh, at one point, uh, that, um, that he should find as he's going on this journey, that he should find a friend, or that he can take someone. And at that point, we know that Sam Wise Gaji has been listening over the hedge, and he picks 'em up and pulls 'em in. And then a little bit later we discover there's a chapter called A Conspiracy Unmasked. And it turns out that Marion Pippen, other of his friends have been for the past year observing him and realizing that he's gonna try to go away. But he had this beautiful, there's this beautiful scene where he all of a sudden discovers that they've all been conspiring a, against him, uh, to go away with him.
Speaker 2 00:29:30 Uh, and he says, Frodo says, right, but it does not seem that I can trust anyone. Sam looked at him unhappily. Well, it all depends on what you want put in Mary. You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone to go off without a word. We are your friends, freto. Anyway, there it is. We know most of what Gandolph has told you. We know a good deal of the ring. We are horribly afraid, but we are coming with you or following you like hounds. So what's that image in a way of, of friendship that becomes almost like, so here's the natural friendship among the hobbits. We've seen the friendship of those who are called Why is friendship the counterbalance to the ring?
Speaker 0 00:30:24 Because it's an expression of, of love. And of course, love is, uh, the antidote to sin. And again, it all comes down to the end of pride and humility. Humility and love or inseparable. You can't love unless you have humility. So Hum. So basically hu so love is to lay down your life self sacrificially for others. Pride is, is laying down the life of others, sacrificially to yourself. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So love is the antidote to the poison of sin, to the poison of pride. So it's that fellowship, the fellowship of the ring, the fellowship of the hobbits, Sam's love for Frodo. Yeah. You know, and, and, and Tolkin says at various places, he says, I, I am in fact a hobbit.
Speaker 2 00:31:07 Uh, he's Oh, in a, but stature, right? Yeah. All
Speaker 0 00:31:09 But statues. I like colorful, uh, colorful. I wear colorful waistcoats. I, uh, I, I like good plain food, um, don't like traveling much. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, so, so I'm in fact, Hobbit. But he also says about he basically relation the, uh, the character of Sam on his personal servant in World War I mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So every, every officer above a certain rank had his own Batman is actually called, uh, personal private soldier, who's a servant. And so Tolkin had his own servant, and he, what he, what he realized this man wasn't as educated as he was. Uh, he wasn't as articulate, but he was actually had more courage. He had more natural goodness. So, uh, he bases, Sam was gab in that. So since by extension you say that in some sense, photo is a tol figure. But the point is that what photos, what what Tolkin is showing us is that the more humble character, Sam is actually the holier character. And it's only his courage, uh, and, and holiness, which brings photo through. Without that, he, he could do nothing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:32:09 And interestingly, at Sam at one point, uh, uh, has to put on the ring to save Frodo. He then carries the ring, he gives the ring up, one of the very few along with Billbo to give the ring up, uh, really almost no one else, uh, does in the story. And, and then eventually, right. Uh, as they're going up the mountain and he says, right, I can't carry the ring, but I can carry you. And he actually carries Frodo on that last stage.
Speaker 0 00:32:36 And, and the wording is beautiful because, uh, he's expecting to only be able to stagger a few yards and then collapse mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because he's thinking he's weak for starters. Right? Yes. You have photos, weight, then you have the weight of the ring on top of that. He thought, this is one last heroic effort. And then we'll both basically collapse and die mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But then as he lifts up photo Yeah. Uh, he feels the, the burden to be miraculously light. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the photo weighs no more than a hobbit child playing piggyback. You know, so, so you have this, this Christ promise to us, right. That if we take up our cross, he will help us carry it. That our burdens will become miraculously light if we have the coverage to, to bear them. And that we see that that's, that's a miracle of grace, that moment in the story. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:33:18 That's really, uh, just, you know, beautiful, uh, you know, thinking about that. And especially by that time in the story, they've been, you know, without food, uh, they've been, uh, barely drinking water. They're, uh, at the utter, utter limits. Uh, and, and in a certain sense, they only find that grace when they completely surrender. Yes. Right? It's this complete, uh, surrender. Uh, and, and, and yet Right. Sam's able to, uh, do this. So one of the fascinating things, uh, that's in the story, which again, is, uh, maybe deeply Catholic, but also deeply weird, uh, is that like Frodo doesn't throw the ring away right. At the very end. Like, all this beautiful stuff that we've been talking about, friendship, we've been talking about the fellowship, we've been talking about Sam helping Frodo, right? At the pinnacle of everything, Frodo is standing over the fires of Mount Doom, right. Ready to cast in the ring. Right. Uh, and I don't have it with me right now, but, but basically Right. Says, uh, it is mine. Mine is the word. He uses that. Right. And he turns around, he walks away from, so Right. What's happening in the story? What's happening in Tolkien's worldview?
Speaker 0 00:34:44 I'm so pleased you asked that, because it really, that's the crucial, and even the word from the word crux as in crossed mm-hmm. The crucial moment of the story. Mm-hmm. Um, so when we first read it, I, I, when I'm teaching literature class Yeah. And we first read a lot of the things, you know, we, when this moment happens, we are angry, right? We are angry with Broda. Cause he's let us down. He's betrayed us. You know, how dare he drag us for, you know, 800 pages, right? For this, for this act of betrayal, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then, and this is our first awareness perhaps of, of the difference between, you know, uh, uh, reading a work literally and beginning to see it literal reality. We think, hang on for a second. It's not, uh, it's not photo full photo has no choice. It's talking's fault.
Speaker 0 00:35:28 Right? And then your Angus turned to the author, how dare you drag me for 800 pages for this? Right? Because he could have done something, but he's made, so you're angry with him. But then you think, okay, well there must be a reason. And of course, out of nowhere, uh, Gollum appears, right? Uh, and it's the struggle, uh, that the with Gollum that the ring is destroyed against, uh, photos will, but what's this signify? What it signifies is that we cannot overcome the power of sin, the power of the ring through the triumph of the will. Right? Wow. We, we need some supernatural exi uh, uh, assistance. Right. Um, uh, which, you know, theologians call grace, that's supernatural assistance. So, but then you think, well, Gollum Grace, come on. That doesn't really work, does it? But then you think about the story mm-hmm. Towards the beginning of the story, you know, that, that Floto says, I wish Uncle Bba had killed that miserable creature when he had the chance.
Speaker 0 00:36:20 It's a pity that he didn't mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Gander says, pity. He was pity that stayed his hand. And then later in the story, when, when, when, when Floto has the chance to kill Gollum, uh, at the Fi forbidden Paul, he says, now I do see him, I do pity him. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and photo stays his hand. And later in the story, Sam has the opportunity to call Gollum and got Sam also pities him. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So on three separate occasions, three separate hobbits have actually, uh, done the most difficult of all the commandments that our Lord gives us. Right. Not just to love our neighbor, which is difficult enough, but to love our enemy. So all three of them love their enemy. And it, and it's the reward for that act of love that he's still there. If any of them had killed him, golum would not have been there. The ring would not have been destroyed. So this was a reward, the supernatural resistance of, of, of, from God, cuz Gander, a gotham's still there because of their acts of love towards their enemy earlier mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and it shows, you know, that, that, that we cannot, none of us could defeat the power of the ring
Speaker 2 00:37:19 Yeah. Without
Speaker 0 00:37:20 Supernatural assistance.
Speaker 2 00:37:21 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And in a way, what Tolkien's doing through the story is kind of, it's like, you know, you were talking before about how we're boromir. We're the, you know, we're, we're really the fallen man in the story. We do, we do it all over again because we believe in Sam and Freto and we believe in ourselves. And we believe that if we were up there, we would've thrown the ring in, you know, cuz we're, you know, we're identifying with the characters and you're having that sense. And then Toan kind of puts up a little mirror. Right, right. That sense in which, uh, the, you know, the fairy stories as he describes it, can become a mirror to our reality. Puts a little mirror and he says, no, you would hold onto the ring. Yep. Yeah. You know, you would hold onto the ring. And, uh, that there's some sense in which, I mean, it's almost like, it's not like we're bad, we're sick.
Speaker 2 00:38:14 Right. Right. You know what I mean? It's like, yes, we're all, but it's like, we're you c we simply can't, we don't have the strength. Our will is too wounded, um, by whatever this deep mystery of iniquity. Uh, and so by doing that, and, and of course right when you see that, you begin to say, wait a second, what's the whole mystery of redemption? The mystery of redemption is when Jesus Christ dies on the cross and rises again and ascends into heaven. He offers himself out of love. But how does that happen? It happens through the hatred, the resentment Yep. Of, of Judas. Right. The chief priest, the Romans ultimately. Right. The devil who is at work and all of that hatred is what somehow brings about the defeat of sin. Yeah. And hatred. Yep. So somehow in a way that's, you know, I don't, I don't, you know, it's like hard to even imagine the story then of Gollum being the one to take the ring from or from proto, uh, is somehow like, you know, a sin defeats itself. Exactly. And I said, it's like, it's kind of, it, it's really just awesome and, and wonderful when you begin to see the profound layers that, uh, that in this entire, entire mythical world that Tolkin is describing. Right. We see ourselves, we see the goodness of God, we see the goodness of mercy. Right. All, all these different themes that come forward and, and
Speaker 0 00:39:47 You know, and, and it shows, uh, the, you know, the words Saint John Paul ii when he talks about culture of death mm-hmm. The culture of death is not really deadly. It's suicidal. You know, that evil is self-defeating a a as you say. And we see it in Gollum. We see it also in the fact that Sao Juan in his pride pays no heed to hobbits. Right. The small and the humble who cares. That's why he doesn't even know where the ring is for so long. Cuz of course it's not gonna be some out of the, some village little folk, it's gonna be with the great. Right. So he's looking in the wrong place because of his pride. He's looking at the wrong place, which allows photo and Sam the walk, right. In the very midst of, of his own evil kingdom. He's ev it's own evil, an empire. So, you know, pride, you know, pride and prejudice, say Jane Austin puts those two together. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Pride Pres prevents us from seeing things objectively. Uh, it's our own weakness. And so ultimately we don't have to defeat the power of evil, which just as well, because we can't, what we, we just have to be true, uh, and art for God's assistance and take up our crosses, asking him to help us carry them and let evil take care of itself, which is ultimately self-defeating.
Speaker 2 00:40:53 Yeah. And it, it's this sense of evil being self-defeating. Uh, there are a few instances, uh, where, where this comes up, but one that just always speaks to me is I think, uh, Sam, this is in the end, like towards the end in the darkness, the hopelessness of the journey. Uh, they don't have enough food. They don't have enough water to even get there, let alone they know once they get there, they can't get out. Uh, and, but he says he looks up and somewhere he sees a star, and he realized that it's the shadow that has passed. And he, he says something along those ideas that he realizes that all shadows will pass actually
Speaker 0 00:41:31 By, by, by pure good fortune. I I have this in front of me, if I
Speaker 2 00:41:35 Might. Oh, well, please, please read it.
Speaker 0 00:41:36 So the epilog of my book begins with these lines to which you, I I, I think you're referring though here at Journey's End, I lie in darkness buried deep beyond all towers, strong and high, beyond all mountains, steep, above all shadows, riots, the sun and stars forever dwell. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I will not say the day is done nor bid the stars farewell. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:42:00 So it, it, and I think that's partly why people love the book, is because you have such a profound, uh, immersion in evil and loss, and there's no, like, there's no, uh, sugarcoating, uh, the wickedness and the horror and the death that comes through this, but at the same time, right. All of that is passing. Yep. The sun and the stars are greater than it. There was a, reminds me of the, uh, I think it was a saying or something that was like written or carved into one of the walls at, uh, in the, maybe it was at Auswitch or, uh, during, uh, the Holocaust where it says something I believe in the sun even when I cannot see it. Uh, or I believe in the sun even when the sun is not shining. I believe in God even when I cannot. But the sense that evil no matter is like Lou, so talking can take it very real. I mean, you take it in a very real sense. And yet at the same time, it's a hopeful story.
Speaker 0 00:42:59 Yeah. I mean, he experienced obviously the trench warfare, what he call the animal horror, the battle of thesal. Yeah. He's seen horrors mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that we can't even imagine. Yeah. You know, so he knows, he knows the reality of evil. And he says, you know, that as a Christian, I see history as the long defeat with only occasional glimpse is a final victory. In other words, in in Augustinian, in a, in a, an augustinian sense, you know, the city of man is always dominating. Uh, and the city of God is always, uh, being dominated. Now, it's always been persecuted. The city of God is a, is a is in a land of exile. It's an a veil of tears. Um, the, the, the ultimate city of God is the church triumphant, but here is the church militant, the church at war in this long defeat of history where the city of man is always the dominant power.
Speaker 2 00:43:45 Yes. And so, partly his work helps us to see the city of man at work. Right. The city of kind of self, um, absorption and s uh, absorbing other selves. And yet at the same time remind us that there is the city of God. Right. That ultimately all of this came from May good God. And we have the freedom of choice to choose with God's help to follow the path that will lead us. And so, uh, maybe just last theme I wanted to a ask a little bit about is, uh, Toan just says, uh, he talks about, again, it's, it's the road that shows up a lot. Um, I think there's a line where he says, uh, Gandolph says something, but, um, or to him, uh, it's a dangerous business. Frodo going out your door. You step out onto the road and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to. Right. Um, there's this, uh, beautiful line too. The road goes ever on and on out from the door where it began. Now far ahead the road has gone. Let others follow if they can let them a journey new begin. But I, at last with wary feet will turn toward the lighted in my evening rest and sleep to meet, uh, what is like, so what is TOK trying to help us to see with this road? Uh, well, I mean,
Speaker 0 00:45:05 Showing us ourselves, as he says in, in, in, in lecture fairy stories, that, that, that man, so it show's showing us, um, first of Allos, he who turns up in wonder above all shadows, rights, the sun. Yes. We have to be able to look up in wonder to be able to see the goodness that transcends and supersedes evil. Mm-hmm. But also we have to take the appointed journey that life is a journey. It's not a a stasis, it's action. So we haven't said anything about The Hobbit, but in natural fact this is, you know, both the Hobbit and a lot of things. You have to go on the quest. Mm-hmm. You have to leave the safety zone. You have to leave the Shire. So, um, you know, the Hobbit in many ways is, is a meditation onto Matthew's gospel where your treasure is there, your heart will be also.
Speaker 0 00:45:48 So at the beginning of the story, you know, the, the Robo Bains is surrounded by his own, uh, dragon hoard. He's possessed by his own possessions. He doesn't wanna leave cuz he's got everything he needs. Right. So Gdo says, you have to go on the journey because it'll be good for you. Dangerous, but good for you. Right. And so is, this is Homo Vito, this is man on a journey or pilgrim man. Right. Man, on a quest. The quest for heaven. Th we are all on a journey and, and, and we, we meant to take the appointed path and the enemy is homo proud man. So then again, that battle that Gollum has, you know, that dialogue within between homos, the proud man who refuses the journey mm-hmm. Uh, refuses to self-sacrifice. Uh, and, and, and Homo Vito are the man who takes the appointed journey and, and, and slays dragons by the help of God on the way.
Speaker 2 00:46:37 Yeah. And I think that, um, that theme of journey and the road, it's very interesting that, uh, Toan does not see the road as a kind of fate. It's really the opposite of fatalism. And, uh, I love this where, uh, at the beginning of the story, but it really creates the whole thing is that it's, it's, we have the choice. Uh, I think Toan and Lewis with so much of kind of modern philosophy falling into determinism, uh, whether or not that's of a scientific form or almost really of a social form, they really wanted to defend. Right. The dignity of each individual person. That and the reality of free will. Right. It's not accidental that it's the ordinary people, uh, that, that, that make all the difference. But when he begins to hear this, Floto says, when he hears, he learns about how Right. How bad things are in the, the Mordor.
Speaker 2 00:47:28 He says, I wish it need not have happened in my times. Ed Freddo, so do I sud Gandolph and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. Right. We don't get to decide our times or the road. Right. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us and already Frodo Right. Our time is beginning to look black. Right. So he sees that. But again, that is, it is for us to do, to decide what to do with the time that is given us. It's for us to decide in a way, there's a real kind of, I think it's partly why people love the story, even if they're, the Catholic themes are kind of almost built into the very created order. Uh, in some ways you could say looking at reality is already a, a Catholic thing because as Catholics, right, we believe that creation already tells forth the glory of God. It's just that often we can't see it. Um, but this world, I think this idea of the, of, of the road as, uh, kind of is that each of our lives, we have meaning and we can discover meaning when we like Frodo. Right. Go on the road. And, and I think that's really a beautiful, uh, theme. Are there any, uh, uh, last, uh, maybe one last, uh, encouragement for people who haven't, uh, maybe yet been willing to pick up, uh, the book, what might you say to encourage them? Well,
Speaker 0 00:48:54 I would merely, merely say that when talking is right, when he says, the Lord of the is a fundamentally religious and Catholic work. It's one of the great works of Western civilization, this profoundly religious and Catholic. Why would someone not want to hate that adventure? And it is an adventure story. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> with a great deal of good, solid theology and philosophy in it. It's, it's, it's anyone who takes that journey with talking and floto, uh, is is on a win-win situation.
Speaker 2 00:49:15 That's great. Well, thank you so much, uh, uh, Joseph. And, uh, for people who are interested in, uh, learning more, you can, uh, find, uh, Joseph Pierce's, uh, website, uh, at j pierce.co. And his book, Toan Man and Myth A Literary Life, uh, is published by Ignatius Press. Uh, so thank you, uh, Joseph for being on the show today.
Speaker 0 00:49:37 My pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:49:40 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
