Suffering in Theology of the Body

[00:00:00] Speaker A: When the Son of God assumed human flesh, the body is now a means of not only relationship with other persons, but also it is a vehicle through which we have that communion with God. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, presented by Ave Maria University. This podcast is sponsored in part by Annunciation Circle, a community that supports the mission of Ave Maria University through their monthly donations of $10 or more. If you'd like to support this podcast and the mission of Ave Maria University, I encourage you to visit avemaria.edu slash join for more information. I'm your host, Michael Doffiney. And today we are joined by Father Joseph Lugolambi, professor of theology at Ave Maria University and a priest of Uganda. Welcome to the show. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much, Father Joseph, for being on our show. And I wanted to ask you just kind of starting right at the big question about so much of the work you've done with John Paul II's theology, the body. And it's this I think when people think about John Paul II's theology of the Body, they naturally turn to the questions of marriage, sexuality, the Church's teachings on marriage, and how John Paul II's theology helps us to understand those right. And I think that's been such a gift to the Church. But a lot of your work and the work of your dissertation and the work of your teaching and the work of your pastoral ministry and different things like that has also shown how the John Paul II's theology of the body really illuminates the meaning of suffering, right? So that as the contemporary world faces the question of suffering, as your many people, many Catholics in Uganda, face a lot of suffering, what is it about the Pope's theology of the body that actually is in and of itself right, a theology of suffering? [00:02:25] Speaker A: Towards the end of the Theology of the Body, st. John Paul II notes that his work has omitted some elements that are so important to the theology of the body. And actually he mentions suffering and death. So in that towards the end of that work, he invites us, the readers of the Theology of the Body, to develop his work in relation to suffering. And when I read that, I remember when I read that I was in the seminary, it struck me. Remember I was with Professor Lawrence Feingold, who introduced me to Theology of the Body. But when I read that phrase, it introduced me how can suffering square into the theology of the body? And I joined the Avamaria University in the fall of 2017. Actually, my bishop had met Professor Mikhail Vostein in Rome and listened to him give lectures on theology of the body. And so he wanted me to study under him so that I can also, when I return back to Uganda, teach and promote the theology of the body. But when I read the theology of the body. Again, John Paul II arranges the theology of the body. You can take into three terms, three parts, depending on how you read it. So he first gives us the historical man, man in the Garden of Eden. Then after he looks at man after the fall and redemption, as we are now, and then he looks at the body, how it will be in the glorified state when we will be with God and in the communion of saints. But when you look at the shift from our stage now, the historical state, which is characterized by sin and redemption, john Paul II does not really make a good bridge between our state now and our glorified state. But when you read his other works, especially his work on Redeem to Value of Suffering, Salvifici Dororis, which he published in 1984, you see that that work, Savifi Dororis, really fills that gap. So that's how I got interested. [00:04:45] Speaker B: Wow, that's really amazing. And of course, somebody with John Paul II's brilliant philosophical and theological mind and also pastoral, Fatherly Heart, would know in a way what not only what he was doing, but also what he had not yet been able to do in those particular works. And yeah, I love the fact that he identifies the fact that if the theology of body is true, then it shifts how we consider suffering and death. And maybe for people who might not be as familiar with the theology of the body, one aspect that I just love is it's actually in section five, it's called man in the dimension of the gift, but it's called the spousal meaning of the body. And so the idea there, in part at least, is that what we do with our bodies matter. Our bodies are not merely mechanical machines. [00:05:47] Speaker A: Yes. [00:05:48] Speaker B: But our bodies are the ways that our souls communicate with one another. So we have bodies. So in a way that our souls can communicate and love. So the body expresses the soul. And so when he says that Brady says this, he speaks about that we somehow now see something unique, is that human beings are the only creature that can recognize that they were created. Yes, we see that we ourselves are a gift of God, and therefore what he calls the hermeneutics of the gift, right. That we are fundamentally given by God. Our presence is a present from God. And at the same thing, then we have this response. So he says, right, creation is a gift, and we, because we are in the image of God, are able to understand the meaning of this gift. And therefore we can enter into a reciprocal gift. We can give ourselves back to God and we can give ourselves to one another. So this idea in a way that when he puts it, the body expresses the person. Yes, right. The body expresses the person. And therefore to become spousal means that human beings don't mate human beings make promises with their mouths and they espouse themselves with vows and therefore create new relationships in which I promise to give myself to one another or to my spouse. And in a way, then, this opens up an idea that more fundamentally than my orientation of man to woman is my orientation of creature, to Creator, of Child of God, to Heavenly Father through the Son in the Spirit. So in that same way, then, all that I do with my body can become a gift to God. What would you say then? How does that way of understanding our bodies as the mode through which the person in a way discovers himself as gift and then gives himself as gift? How does that change the way we look at suffering and death? [00:08:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that is a very important point that throughout the theology of the body, and even in Savifjidoris, St. John Paul II talks about that power of the body to express love. And in theology of the body right from the beginning, he says that the foundation of that spousal meaning of the body, the body's power to express love of the gift of the person, is the image of God in man. That God created us in his own image that even after the fall, the image of God did not fly away, we retained the image of God in which we were created. And he says in audience 23, I think, paragraph four, he talks about the Incarnation, that the fact that the eternal Son of God acquired a body, the body entered into theology through a front door. That because of the incarnation. And later it talks about the redemption those go together. Because of the incarnation and redemption, christ redeemed the body's capacity to express love, that power, the spousal meaning of the body. So even in our own vulnerability, in our suffering, because Christ has redeemed the human body, we in our sufferings in union with Christ, there is that communion. There is that communion that we can have, that communion of persons with the other persons, but also, even through suffering, that is an opportunity through which we become united to God in a special way. [00:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think what you raised there is so important because I think a lot of people can overlook that when they think about the theology of the body, they only think about the man and the woman in marriage and sexuality. But the primary theology of the body is the Incarnation. Right? That it's. When God comes to us in Jesus Christ, in an incarnate, the Word becomes flesh. Right? The eternal logo son enters, becomes fully human and takes a human body and therefore communicates divine realities. Right. Jesus Christ touches people. He touches the leper and heals the leper. You can think about, like his hand communicates divine power, divine wisdom, divine love. His words, his words that he speaks. Raise the little girl. Get up, Lazarus. Come out everything that he does is really an expression of eternal love. [00:11:28] Speaker A: Yes. And that fact, the importance of the Incarnation is even shown in the liturgy, especially the common Prayer. The angelus when we say those words, and the Word became flesh and daughter among us, we genufrect to show that the Incarnation is so central in our life that when the Son of God assumed human flesh, the body is now a means of not only relationship with other persons, but also it is a vehicle through which we have that communion with God. [00:12:07] Speaker B: Yes. And then Christ not only does that, but he begins to suffer, he begins to get hungry, he goes on his passion, his journey to Jerusalem, being rejected, beaten, all these different things. He offers his own Body for our redemption. And that love for the Father that is so perfect that it takes on all of the sin and misunderstanding and cruelty of history and takes it all on Himself. And kind of in some ways, right, defeats it in the resurrection. And of course, the resurrection too, is the resurrection of the Body. So he suffers in the body, and then he rises in the body. And his body is now in heaven. [00:12:56] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:56] Speaker B: Right. And so that is really kind of the source then, of the theology of the Body. And in that sense, it already opens up to a theology of suffering and death. [00:13:06] Speaker A: Right. And John Paul II repeats many times in Salvic Dororis that Christ saved us through the suffering of his body, through his bodily suffering. So in that we, the members of His Body, the Christians, if we suffer in union with Him, we are reunited with Him. And our sufferings themselves are not wasted, but they are mystically united with his. Any that actually our suffering is elevated to 2.0, we receive more dignity, any that they mystically participate in that act through which we are saved. I think that's so important. [00:13:50] Speaker B: It really is beautiful. And if we step back and we think about it in some ways, right. In our contemporary age, we often find many people struggle with a crisis of meaning. And many people will say that there's no fundamental meaning to human sexuality. It's just a natural activity that you can do at will consensually. And people will often find, again, work has no meaning intrinsically. It's just a thing we do in order to get money. It has no intrinsic purpose. And then, if sexuality is meaningless and work is meaningless, then unfortunately it means suffering is meaningless. Suffering that we all encounter, the moral suffering at having failed maybe to live up to our highest standards, the suffering of being rejected by friends or romantic interests, the suffering of the death of loved ones, the painful illnesses in ourselves, right? All of that suffering according to that same kind of worldview is meaningless, right? And so John Paul II, right, in Salvifice Dolores, this on the redemptive on the Christian meaning of human suffering is the way he puts it's interesting? It's the Christian meaning of human suffering, as he puts it. He actually calls it the Salvifice Dolores, by the way, that means the Salvific meaning of suffering. So it's kind of like, not only does he say that suffering and human sexuality and work and everything can become meaningful, but it actually can become salvific. So could you just say a little bit more about how is it that maybe in your role as a priest or as a teacher, how is it that you use maybe this theology of John Paul II to help people find meaning amidst suffering? [00:15:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Christ, by dying for us on the cross, through suffering, showed us that suffering is now meaningful insofar as we unite our sufferings to his on the cross. So it is one of the best sacraments that, as a priest, I'm privileged to administer, I would say, is the sacrament of the anointing of the sick. And this reminds me, during the COVID-19 Lockdown, the churches were closed, and I had an opportunity of visiting a parishioner in one of the hospitals here in Naples. And this man had six children, and he was alone over there. But after getting through the struggles and getting to his hospital room, I used a long stick to anoint him. But giving administering these churches, sacraments anointing of the Sikh to fortify him, I saw his face lightning up, his face lightening up. And I didn't know what to tell him, but he told me, Father, go and tell my wife and children that I love them and I will be with them, with God, I'll be with them, and I'm praying for them. And for me, through that man's suffering and through his union with Christ, through these sacraments that was the most kind, most union, unique union with his family that was far away and with God that is so unique that we do not even must experience in our daily lives. So Christ, by suffering for us, he elevated human suffering itself in that it acquired, as John Paul II says, in Salvation Doris, that suffering now has a salvific meaning in that through suffering itself, united with Christ's cross can be a means of redemption, a means of salvation. [00:18:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think part of that is maybe just, again, trying to think through this, especially for people who hear this, and it's kind of like, what does that mean? Or it sounds so obvious that it's unhelpful, is that I think we really want to recover the ideas that the suffering of Christ leads to the Resurrection. It's not just that Christ suffered, it's that he suffered and then overcame suffering. He died and then destroyed death. So suffering becomes salvific when we recognize, in a way, just in the simple faith of that man that you described that his suffering and death, because it was joined to Christ would not be the end. It would have meaning and purpose because he would be with God and he could be then closer to his loved ones in. So I think the sense that we have to remember that suffering is already a part of our lives, and what Christ does is enter into our suffering to transform our suffering, so that suffering now becomes a path to life without suffering. There's a passage in Revelation 21 four, and I remember it very particularly because when I was young, I had a sister who died suddenly and I was very lost. And a Christian friend at the time wrote me a card. And I remember in the card, I was not a Christian, I was a baptized Catholic, but I was not a believer, and I was an angry young man, so to speak. But I remember Revelation just wrote, when you're ready, look up Revelation 21 four. And it basically says, when God dwells with his people perfectly, he will wipe away every tear and there will be no more suffering. And so it's not that we love suffering in and of itself. It's that Christ enters into our suffering to undo the power of suffering and death. And this is what's revealed. And I think that sense of keeping that eye on, that theme of glory, as you began right at the beginning with Theology of the Body, we're actually moving to the glorified body that Christ has now in heaven. That's our hope. [00:20:30] Speaker A: Yes. On the feast of the exhortation of the cross, there is the antiphon for the morning prayer says, by Christ's death, he destroyed death itself. It's like what you've said in Revelation, that by his death, by his suffering and death, he destroyed death itself and brought us the resurrection. So I think it's always good to keep our eyes focused on the end, that suffering as suffering, it is an evil, but the end is the resurrection. We pass through the path that our Lord passed. We are the resurrected people, the resurrection people. [00:21:13] Speaker B: Yes. So it's interesting when John Paul II in Salvifice Dolores, right, on the Christian meaning of suffering, he speaks of something that's almost shocking, the Gospel of suffering, which is right, the good news of suffering. But he says this when he says this is just the full sentence, though, that he mentions this the witnesses of the cross and resurrection of Christ. Again, the cross and resurrection are one, and they go together, have handed on to the Church and to mankind a specific gospel of suffering. The Redeemer himself wrote this gospel above all by his own suffering accepted in love so that man should not perish but have eternal life. Right. So this is kind of that idea is that his own suffering accepted in love, that love with which Christ accepts suffering is not it is a perfectly human love, but it's a perfectly human love that is taken up. Into the perfectly divine love of his divine nature that actually, I think is so hopeful because there is nothing we do with our bodies that is meaningless. No suffering that anyone goes through, no tear that anyone shed, no being awake in the middle of the night when you can't sleep. No pain and agony, whatever it is, is lost to Christ on the cross. Because on the cross, Christ being eternal as the catechism teaches. He says I think it's in 617, but it says he sees each one of us in a way he knows and loves each one of us, and in a way remembers on the cross all of our suffering so we are never alone. [00:23:10] Speaker A: Yes. In that chapter where he talks about the good news of suffering, the gospel of suffering, he gives an example of the saints whose conversion, like Ignatius of Loyola, whose conversion itself was through his experience of suffering on the sick bed that his life was saved when, as meditated on the lives of the saints, he got those consolations and that suffering itself has a meaning. And St. Augustine in the Confessions talks about after his conversion, that he looked for God in other things, but he didn't closer to us than we are close to ourselves. So it goes to that line in the catechism that God sees each of us, even in the depth of our suffering, because the suffering he went through on the cross, as you said, being a divine person, human suffering, he experienced a suffering that is more excruciating, more than all the sufferings of the world. [00:24:30] Speaker B: Yeah, and I love that language, too, that John Paul II uses when he speaks of that his own suffering accepted in love. And if we go back to what we began with the spousal meaning of the body, that human beings recognize the whole created world as created as a gift from God, we recognize ourselves, our souls, as gifts, our bodies as gifts, and therefore that we can use like that. The body expresses the person, and I can give myself back to God and to one another. That the word accept in English, if you look it up. I think the second meaning or the second and third meanings is really to receive as a gift. [00:25:12] Speaker A: Yes. [00:25:13] Speaker B: By the way, it's why we don't like judges that accept bribes. It doesn't just mean that they put up with bribes. It means that they accept them as a gift, and therefore they then owe the person who gave them something. Well, when we accept suffering now, you could say, how could we receive suffering as a gift? How could you receive something that is evil as a gift? Well, on our own, we really can't. But we can, because we see that Christ has already received it as a gift. That in a way, we can see that what brings my life most meaning, it's to give of myself to another person and within this world, to give of myself to another person means to accept the suffering that is present in that other person and in life. The only way I can give myself to another person in this historical order is by accepting the suffering that is present in some sense as a gift. As a gift, as something that I'm either going to accept it as a gift or I'm going to rebel at it. And if I rebel, then I lose my capacity to be able to really give of myself to the other person. So I just think that sense of turning back to accepting suffering with love means to receive it as a gift and to give it back to God in the broken ways that we can but realize we don't do it with our strength. We do it with the strength that comes from God so that we might journey unto eternal life. [00:26:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And Christ is our model in that. When you read John, chapter 17, he says, father, you gave this to me. Where I want to be is where I want them to be, where I am, that they may be one as we are one. And that gift given and received in love is so important, even in suffering. Love conquers all. Christ, out of love for us, died for us on the cross, and even in the Eucharist, take this, all of you, and eat of it. He gives Himself as a gift to us so that we may receive Him. And it is important, that distinction that you made, that on our own, it's difficult to accept suffering. But Christ continuously gives Himself to us, and we use the grace that he gives us, the Holy Spirit who works within us, that we are able to give ourselves as a gift even in the experience of our own sufferings. [00:27:59] Speaker B: Right? There are two quotes on this, and then we'll take a break. But one is from actually, Father Jacques Philippe writes about it, I think an interior piece, but he quotes St. Therese of Lesoux I only suffer for one moment. And she suffered a lot, both existentially towards the end of her life and with awful tuberculosis. But she says, I only suffer for one moment. It is because people think about the past and the future that they become discouraged and despair, right? So we have to also learn how to suffer by suffering only in the moment. And this is another one. Maurice Baring wrote a book called Darby and Joan, and he was a friend of, like, G. K. Chesterton's, kind of part of that Catholic literary revival. But he says this one had to accept sorrow for it to be of any healing power. And that is the most difficult thing in the world. A priest once said to me, when you understand what accepted sorrow means, you will understand everything. It is the secret of life. So we'll come back in a minute, after the break. And I'd like to hear a little bit more about how your own experience, maybe with the Catholic Church in Uganda. And you said that your bishop had actually asked you to come and study the theology of the Body for the purpose of suffering. So tell us a little bit about your own journey and a little bit maybe about the Church in Uganda and some of your plans. So after the break, we'll come back and speak about that. [00:29:35] Speaker C: You're listening to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave. Maria University and sponsored in part by Annunciation Circle. Through their generous donations of $10 or more per month, annunciation Circle members directly support the mission of AMU to be a fountainhead of renewal for the Church through our faculty, staff, students, and alumni. To learn more, visit avemaria.edu. Slash join. Thank you for your continued support. And now let's get back to the show. [00:30:07] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Catholic Theology Show sponsored by Ave Marie University. I'm your host, Michael Doffiney. And today we have Father Joseph Lugalambi on our show. So again, thank you for being on our show today. [00:30:18] Speaker A: I'm so honored to be here. [00:30:19] Speaker B: Yes. And we've been discussing John Paul II's theology of the Body and especially its relationship to recovering the meaning of suffering right. That suffering can be meaningful, redemptive, and that it is so to right. Not wasted. Right. So really recovering that idea. Now, you had mentioned that in right, your bishop back in Uganda asked you to come study at Ave Mar University to work on the theology of the body after your seminary studies at Kenrick Lennon. So tell us a little bit about what was your experience in Uganda. What's kind of the state of the Catholic Church in Uganda? And how is it especially that the Pope's John Paul II's Theology of the Body addresses a pastoral need that that you see there? [00:31:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Uganda is a young country. It got its independence in the year 1962, so it's only 61 years independent. Wow. And like the many churches in Africa south of the Sahara Desert, it is, at its youthful stage, 134 years old as the Church. So at this youthful stage, we have many vocations to the priesthood. The churches are full. Uganda is the size of Oregon State, but with 46 million people, and 40% of those 46 million people are Catholics. We have 19 Catholic dioceses, and my diocese massacre is the oldest of the dioceses in Uganda. It's where the white fathers, or today they rebranded their name, they are called the Missionaries of Africa. That's where their base was. So they base from my home diocese to evangelize many other parts of Africa south of the Sahara Desert. So given the situation and the Church is still young people still hold the traditional natural law values. So marriage is still a sacred sacrament, whether natural marriage by non Catholics and non Christians. If a man or a woman gets married, it's the celebration of the entire community. So the village comes together and the village contributes the food and everything to celebrate marriage, because they know that marriage is the surest way of continuing the human society. And even our government is quite good in upholding the natural law, the traditional norms. For instance, today, I think you've heard it over the news that homosexuality and LGBTQ is illegal in Uganda and abortion is illegal. So given our situation, the theology of the body is really important, though unfortunately, it's not as popular as it is here. So the way we are and if Africa is to remain the future of the church, as some people say, I think this is the time for us to embrace John Paul II's teaching on the importance of human sexuality and think that my bishop had wanted me to come and study the theology of the body. Actually, right now I'm writing a curriculum. I'm writing a curriculum for theology of the body for all elementary and secondary schools in Uganda. So it's a big project. I'll translate into four languages. But yeah, that's what I'm working on. [00:34:20] Speaker B: So maybe what I hear you saying is that culturally there's a lot of support for traditional marriage. And I love the idea, by the way, that the village comes together to offer to kind of pay for the wedding, because it's interesting so many people in America will describe as the cost of the wedding as a reason not to get married. So what a beautiful way of supporting marriage. And so if there's a lot of the kind of cultural support, then in part, of course, you want to really help make sure that there's a deep theological understanding so that it's not merely cultural, but that it's theological that people are really understanding the meaning of human sexuality within marriage. And maybe could you just say a word within a curriculum for schools on the theology of body? What are a couple points that you would like to that you're kind of maybe taking as central points for this curriculum that you're writing for the diocese or the schools in Uganda? [00:35:31] Speaker A: Yeah, one of the most important central points is the spouse of meaning of the body, that the body itself has a meaning. Though I said that with the society, the Ugandan community still upholds the importance of marriage and human sexuality. We have a lot of pressure from the west, even in our curriculum. One of the problems that we have is the HIV AIDS. So when I was in the elementary school and secondary school, in order to avoid HIV AIDS, we fold the so called AB method, abstain and be faithful. But today, in many schools, even in the curriculum, there is C comes first. Always use a condom instead of abstain and be faithful. And now it's all reversed. So I emphasize the spousal meaning of the body and also John Paul II in the theology of the body. He talks about the language of the body. That the language the body has a God given language and therefore it has to be spoken in truth. And John Paul II takes it to the marriage vow, the marital vow, that man and woman, they promise each other and they vow God that I take you to be my wife. I take you to be my husband. So those words that the couple say to each other on their wedding day, every time man and woman come in the conjugal act, they are rereading those words. They are reenacting that marital vow that they married to God and to each other and in the presence of the church. So that language has to be lived in truth. So use of any form of contraception is not speaking the truth of the body, is speaking the language of the body with falsity. So that theme of the spouse or meaning of the body, I think it's so important. [00:37:41] Speaker B: That's really powerful. And I think, yeah, some people have described it that when we give ourselves sexually, but not wholly and totally, then we are lying with our body, right as you described it there from John Paul II. Maybe tell us a little bit more about how then do you see that this language of suffering is also important for the kind of pastoral situation in Uganda. [00:38:20] Speaker A: There is a lot of suffering in our countries and continent and Africa, from HIV AIDS to wars themselves, famine, poverty and lack of appropriate, adequate medical care. Most people don't have insurance. So when even the priests, a priest himself, you are not only a pastor of the soul, but sometimes when you go to anoint someone, you may find that someone is sick with malaria. So someone is going to die from malaria, but malaria is curable, but this person does not have a dollar or $1 and a half to be taken to hospital to receive quinine, quinine or any other medicine. So a priest, you first take this person to the hospital, then you anoint them. So there is a lot of suffering. And we need to understand that even in our poverty, even in our lack of those resources, we can be spiritually rich by accepting that suffering as a gift from Christ. So that the benefits of those sufferings, christ can use them for our own salvation and also for the salvation of. [00:39:47] Speaker B: You know and I think maybe it's interesting once, you know, Aquinas will say that grace does not destroy, but it perfects nature. And in an interesting way, once we recover the salvific meaning of suffering, the supernatural meaning of suffering, it almost seems to me like we also can recover almost something like the natural meaning of suffering. Because there is a strange way, I think, when we are honest with ourselves, it's often through our suffering that we've grown, that if we never suffered, we would probably be spoiled adults in different ways. And I sometimes think I remember reading a book once on why suffering. And I didn't read the book, but I just read the little introduction, and the woman who wrote it just was basically saying, just think about whenever something is really difficult in your life, who is the person you want to talk to? Do you want to talk to someone who's never suffered, or do you want to talk to someone who has suffered? And of course, in a way, yeah, it's the people that have suffered that, in a certain sense, acquire a kind of depth. Could you describe know and for some of our listeners who probably who don't know that much about Uganda, I know you've led a number of Ave Maria students over the years on mission trips to Uganda. But what are some difficulties maybe that you experienced in your youth, in your discerning a vocation to the priesthood that also helped you to kind of grow just as a person, as a human being? [00:41:16] Speaker A: In the year I saw the effects of the Rwandan genocide, my Rwandan genocide? [00:41:24] Speaker B: Yeah, the Rwanda genocide that was like. [00:41:25] Speaker A: In 90, 419 94. My family, we are towards the border of Uganda and Rwanda. So we had even fugitives come to live with us. We had two people who came to live with us. And even up today, there are a lot of people like that. At our seminary, there were two bodies of priests that were found on Lake Victoria. Lake Victoria is like an hour away from my house. So the priests, probably they were murdered after celebrating Mass. And some people found those body floating on the water, and they brought them to be buried to the seminary. So I remember I went to a high school seminary, 13 year old. Okay, so as I went to the high school seminary, we went to the cemetery and there was no names on these graves. The names on the grave was inyotus inyotus in Latin, it means unknown. And for me to see these two graves with inotus unknown made me to question, who are these? And the story was told to us, but later people from Rwanda heard that they are members of their family who are buried at the seminary. And we saw that, and we saw that kind of communal communion that came out of the sufferings of these people and these priests that were already there. And I thought, it is death that is uniting these people together. It is suffering that is uniting us, the seminarians and the people of Uganda and the people in Rwanda. But, yeah, suffering. I saw it growing up I grew up in a very humble family. My parents even had the medical insurance or anything like that. We lived on the mercy of God. But the community itself, we have the African adage, which we call the Ubuntu adage. I am because we are, and since we are, therefore I am. So people suffer, they live on less. But because of their sufferings, they are united in a more fundamental way that I've seen even in the west, where I've been at, that the suffering of one member of the family of the community is the suffering of the other member of the community. The rejoicing of one member of the community is the rejoicing of the other member of the community. And having told you my background going through school, I was not only sponsored by only the members of my family. Every person in the village, in their own way, contributed to my seminary tuition, even Muslims. At my first Mass, I had over 3000 people, even over 800 Muslims, who came to celebrate, who came to celebrate the ordination of their son. Whether invited or not, they had to be there because it's a celebration, it's a sacrament of the community. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, that's just beautiful. And it is something that I am because we are, and we are because I and since we are, therefore I am. What a beautiful sense. And that is true. I think the wealthier that societies get, the more we seek to be isolated and independent from each other and therefore lose more of that communion, which is the beautiful thing. Of course, in some ways, wherever we are, in whatever society, we have the promise of that communion right in Christ, in the church. So maybe let's just one or two last questions. When you're teaching the theology of the body to students, which you've been doing now for maybe about, what, five years or so, what are some questions that you find a lot of students have and what do you want the students to take away from the class five years from now? [00:45:48] Speaker A: One of the questions that come out, which I think is always a very genuine question from my students, is how can the theology of the body help me to overcome my past experiences, bad experiences, sexual experiences? And that is always a very genuine question, though, in the classroom, usually, since it's not a pastoral setting, it is an intellectual discourse. Students always ask that, and I always tell them that our sins, things that happen to us, do not rob us of our dignity, is in the image and likeness of God. And despite what has happened to us, despite our experiences, christ, by his incarnation and redemption and resurrection, he redeemed us, he restored us. And therefore we need to embrace the message of the incarnation, the message of the redemption, the message of the resurrection, the theology of the body so that we may be healed and restored. [00:47:07] Speaker B: Oh, that's beautiful. So the theology of the body is not an ideal or a standard to which we cannot live up, but it's actually what God is doing. And what God has done to redeem, restore, to forgive us, so that we can be really restored. We have all lied with our bodies. We've lied with our mouths, we've lied with our minds, and yet God's love comes right into our world and opens up a path forward. It's interesting, too. John Paul II will I think his name will always be remembered with the theology of the body. [00:47:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:50] Speaker B: And I love how you tie in the understanding of suffering into that. And I think the other thing is with the Divine mercy, right. Divine Mercy Sunday. And his fostering, that devotion to Divine mercy. And I think divine mercy is the second Sunday of Easter. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Yes. [00:48:07] Speaker B: And right so the theology of the body is unintelligible apart from Divine mercy. [00:48:12] Speaker A: Definitely. [00:48:13] Speaker B: Right. And God's mercy is so great because it doesn't merely forgive, but it restores. [00:48:17] Speaker A: It restores. And in his one of other writings on Divine Mass, his writings is that encyclical called Divas in Misericordia, Rich in Massey, in which he investigates that parable of the prodigal Son who scorned at his Father's property. But when he comes back to his mind and returns to the Father, the Father welcomes him with open arms and restores his dignity. The theology of the Body itself is a proclamation of Divine mercy. [00:48:53] Speaker B: Wow. [00:48:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:55] Speaker B: That is so well put. So thank you so much, father, I'd like to ask you just a couple of questions, which I try to ask members or people that are on the show. So would you tell us about a book you're reading? [00:49:08] Speaker A: Yes, I've been reading the History of Philosophy. By even in order to understand John Paul's theology of the body and his writings, and even many fathers of the Catholic patrimony, you have to understand the history in which they build up their theology, anthropology. So I'm reading Copleston's History of Philosophy. And I've been reading now I'm reading Aristotle. [00:49:45] Speaker B: Oh, wow, that's good. That's an eight volume, I think, series on Frederick Copelston's book. So that's, you know, I'm sure you have many, but just maybe, what's, one daily practice you would like to share with listeners and viewers that helps you find that meaning, right. That special meaning from God and helps you to draw closer to God? [00:50:11] Speaker A: It's my daily holy hour. When I was in the seminary, the third year before the diaconate, year after, I made up my mind with the help of my spiritual director, after I discerned that I am going to be elevated to the order of the diaconate, I put my daily holy hour among my non negotiables. So every day after I wake up, I go to our chapel and I do my holy hour. And after that, I go for my run. So my holy hour is my one on one meeting with the Lord. And I've been faithful to that, I would say, for the last seven, eight years. I think I have not missed it. [00:51:04] Speaker B: Wow, that's so beautiful. And I love the way you describe a one on one meeting with our Lord. Right. That sense. We wouldn't miss that. Time. How beautifully put. And maybe last question is what's an understanding of God that you had at some point that you discovered was false? And what was the truth you discovered through the faith? [00:51:29] Speaker A: I went to Muslim grade school, first grade through 7th grade, and I wanted to become a Muslim. I understood the Muslim hadith more than the Catholic Catechism, and I thought God was such an angry man. [00:51:49] Speaker B: Wow. [00:51:49] Speaker A: Because the way they taught us, when you sin, the day of your burial, there will be two angels. They will hammer you seven times and they will destroy you, completely, annihilate you. But the more when I learned the Catholic catechism thoroughly, I realized that our God is a God of love, is a God of both mercy and justice. But love conquers all. [00:52:17] Speaker B: Wow. Really? That does bring it all back to that sense of God's mercy. Right? His mercy that doesn't neglect justice, but fulfills justice. Yes, right. God's mercy doesn't simply forgive us, but it restores to us what was lost. [00:52:34] Speaker A: Yes, definitely. [00:52:35] Speaker B: Right. As the prodigal Son, we spurned our birthright, we spurned our inheritance, and yet God restores it to us in Jesus Christ, in his resurrection. [00:52:46] Speaker A: Amen. [00:52:47] Speaker B: Well, Father Joseph Lugalambi, thank you so much for being on our show. We will certainly, and I'll ask any listeners and viewers to say a prayer for the Church in Uganda and the great kind of hope that it is. And also, I think we will count on the prayers of so many Catholics in Uganda for us as we try to continue to find that deeper meaning amidst suffering, and maybe often the suffering of those who are perhaps more affluent, but also more isolated, that no suffering is in vain. And we can all look forward to that time, as it says in the Book of Revelation, in which God will wipe away every tear and there will be no suffering, no more death. So thank you so much, Father, again, for being on the show. [00:53:38] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. God bless you. [00:53:43] Speaker C: Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. Best. If you like this episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our annunciation circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on The Catholic Theology Show.