Speaker 0 00:00:00 There's something about motherhood that, from an Aristotelian point of view is, is you're actualizing the powers that you've got. I had my son at 35 mm-hmm. And, um, I was struck by how incredible sort of it was to have these powers in my body that like I never knew existed, and that were like being actualized through the act of becoming a mother. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it really felt very empowering, and we should see it that way.
Speaker 2 00:00:31 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Dr. Michael d, and today we're joined by Dr. Janice Chi Braden, uh, professor of philosophy at Ave Maria University. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:47 Thanks for having me, Michael.
Speaker 2 00:00:49 Well, I really appreciate your being here, and I'm so excited today to get to talk about just a fascinating, uh, topic. Uh, you've developed a course and have taught a course on the philosophy of motherhood. That's right. And, uh, I think that's something that is, uh, so, so important for people to think about and try to come to understand. I notice so many people have questions, but maybe just to kind of start with like a, an easy objection. Right. But why, why are we studying motherhood? I mean, isn't motherhood so obvious that it doesn't require <laugh> a university level course?
Speaker 0 00:01:24 Sure. I think from one perspective, you know, a lot of things are so obvious that they don't require university level courses. Like I would, I would say metaphysics, you know, <laugh> the philosophy of being right. Like we, we all are. And so why do we need to study that, um, or, or even ethics, right? Um, we, we all are, you know, we seem to have an intuitive grasp of what the good life is, and so why do we need to study it? Yeah. And I think, um, you know, I think, uh, uh, you know, what Aristotle says at the beginning of the metaphysics is really apropo here. I mean, he says basically that what distinguishes us from animals is that we not only experience the world, but we, we reflect on our experiences. And these experiences come to have a deeper meaning for us. We wanna know the first causes of things mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we, we should not rest content with just, you know, sort of saying, yes, that's a common experience, and as motherhood is a very pervasive, uh, for, for the majority of, of women in the world. Yeah. Um, motherhood is this, uh, very pervasive and, and familiar experience. So, um, I mean, I, myself too, um, you know, didn't think motherhood would be interesting, but when I became a mother, you know, I really, you know, realized like I was proven wrong. Wow.
Speaker 2 00:02:32 About that. Wow. That's, that's really a great, um, that's a great, that's a great insight there. And reminds me, I think, uh, CS Lewis, in his book Miracles, uh, says something that often, what's the most obvious is the most easily overlooked. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, yeah. And there, he's, I think he's talking about kind of when you're out on a beautiful day outside, in a beautiful day, you're looking at everything. You forget that the sun is illuminating everything mm-hmm. <affirmative> that you're seeing. And he also says in a way, right, when we're seeing, seeing the world being caused by God as creator, we often forget the most obvious thing, namely God. Right. Right. Right. And we can get lost. And so I wonder if in some ways, you know, motherhood is also kind of a, such a pervasive experience, uh, that we often forget it. I mean, and in some ways, right? Uh, maybe we have this kind of idea of the self, you know, the self-made individual, um, and, uh, that kind of, the role of motherhood and, uh, all of these different things are kind of forgotten. So maybe what are some ways in which you've seen or kind of discovered right, this most obvious reality in a way forgotten or overlooked?
Speaker 0 00:03:40 Yeah. I I actually think culturally in our modern, you know, society, that motherhood is not just overlooked. It's really scorned. And Wow. You know, I mean, I'm just speaking from a kind of, you know, the, the a kind of general, uh, you know, feminist kind of view, right? That, that motherhood is, is really in opposition to being a woman and to being fully actualized as, as a person mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, so, no, I think, I think the problem is a very serious one. It it does demand, uh, greater philosophical reflection and theological reflection for us to Yeah. Really understand. And, you know, in a very, I think, reasonable way, we can see that nothing is maybe more important than parenthood, right? Because like, this is where we begin. Um, you know, I mean, we can, you know, theology is a very high science, but the child only knows his own parents.
Speaker 0 00:04:28 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so there's a kind, there's a kind of beginning of knowledge right there that should make us pause and say, okay, this is a very significant sort of relationship. Um, but both mother and father, but I would say the mother in, in a, in a kind of primary way. So, so in some sense, we can't neglect it. And, you know, we can become mothers and fathers in, in the biological sense, but then we really have to ask ourselves, what does it mean to actually be a mother and a father? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so, so yeah. I mean, I, I think everywhere we are neglecting it is, is that your question? Like, sort of Yeah. Growing, growing, well, growing up as a Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:05:02 The way you're describing it too is that it's not just maybe a forgotten, but perhaps a scorned reality. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 0 00:05:09 You
Speaker 2 00:05:10 Any sense for why is it that people have come to see motherhood as, uh, somehow right. A threat?
Speaker 0 00:05:17 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:05:18 I mean, we almost, you know, it's like a threat to the woman's fulfillment.
Speaker 0 00:05:23 Yeah. No, I, I think people assume that there's a kind of zero sum proposition here, right? Mm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that when you become a mother, you're, you, you become less, right? And <laugh>. Wow. Yeah. And, um, and I think, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I think young women are sort of formed in this way, right? I, I was certainly, like, when I went through college, um, I went to Princeton, of course. And like, you know, of course you get people like saying, well, you, you, you know, the worst possible thing that you could do is like, graduate from college and then like, get married and become a mom, like right after. Wow. And, um, and there's a real cultural pressure not to do that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I mean, you certainly would never think of doing that while you're still in college, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, so yeah, I think, uh, I think I, I'm not sure I, I think like sort of from a material perspective even, um, this is a wrong view, right?
Speaker 0 00:06:10 Because like, there's something about motherhood that, you know, from an Aristotelian point of view is, is you're actualizing the powers that you've got. I mean, I was very struck by, you know, um, you know, I got, uh, I had my, you know, our son at 35 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, um, I was struck by how incredible, right? Sort of it was to have these powers in my body that like I never knew existed and that were like being actualized through the act of becoming a mother. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it really felt very empowering. And, you know, I mean, you, it's good you feel that way even at nine months pregnant, right? Because like, you know, you both feel like a beast of burden as well as like really empowered, actually. And I think that's, that is the reality of it. Um, I remember telling my husband, like, I felt like I'd super powers that were like, emerging in me, right?
Speaker 0 00:06:54 Like, you think about like the, the magic, like just amazing, right? The womb itself can expand like a thousand times its size <laugh>, right? The woman's body can grow a whole new organ, right? The placenta mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, just the ability to say sustain life, um, the, the ability to produce milk, right? Is like, really, I don't know, like what, you know, men like, get around this. But, you know, I told Michael, like, I felt like it was like super powers that I never had, that I never knew I had. And yeah. You know, he, he said, well, I think men have superpowers too, you know, but like, <laugh>. But yeah, so I think, I think it, it, even from a biological perspective, it's very empowering. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and we should see it that way. Um, and, and yeah, it's not really a zero sum proposition.
Speaker 2 00:07:35 So maybe part of one of the, um, I don't know, one of the contemporary ideas is there's this right. Either or there's a collision course mm-hmm. <affirmative> between a career and motherhood, right? Uh, and almost it's like that's kind of built into people's DNA today, right? Um, how do you see that maybe being overcome?
Speaker 0 00:07:57 That's, yeah, that's, um, that's the hard question. And, um, I think that, you know, the modernity proposes one extreme solution, which is right. Um, you don't, right? Maybe, maybe you have a child or two, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> to be the maximum. Um, and, but, but you don't actually actively mother, um, your children. Uh, but, you know, there is also another extreme to that, which is, you know, you can't work mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? You can't, um, you can't make it work, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but you can't have it all. And so you have to, you know, women really should be stay at home mothers and, and not do anything else, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, and I think that this, this is the tricky question mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's, it's a question that Anne Marie Slaughter, you know, addresses at length. Um, and I actually think Anne Marie s so Anne Marie Slaughter was my dean at, at Princeton in the Woodrow Wilson School.
Speaker 0 00:08:46 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, you know, I respected her in the way that, like a professional woman, you know, I think, you know, is, is very, she's very respectable, um, professionally, but she came out with this Atlantic article that was kind of shocking, you know, when it came out. And it's, uh, it's titled Why Women Still Can't Have It All. Okay? And, and in the article, she, it's basically kind of a confession, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that she's writing, she says, like, she was hired by Hillary Clinton and Secretary of State, um, and, and she would commute from Princeton, uh, every week. And so she was living in DC and she just thought, okay, my sons are grown up like I, they don't need me mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? But, um, you know, the police started getting called, you know, for like various things. I mean, it was like pretty serious.
Speaker 0 00:09:29 And she regretted it. She, she writes that, you know, I, you know, I, I didn't want to admit this, but my sons needed me. So, um, I, I think that, you know, even, even, you know, a woman like her, right, who's like very, I would say, like very different from the, the milu that, that a Maria offers, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I think we all recognize that, you know, there should, there must be some way of synthesizing or integrating, um, the work of being a mother with a professional vocation that we have. I think that there must be a way to do this. I mean, I, for my part, I'm very lucky in that my work is very flexible. Um, I, you know, go to the university a few times a week to teach and to be on campus for meetings and to, to see students.
Speaker 0 00:10:11 Um, but most of my work can be done from home. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, um, especially when our son was a newborn, I found it, uh, possible to get lots of writing done mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, when all he did was, you know, eat and sleep and, you know, do like basic <laugh> animal things. So, um, I, I think that we do need to recognize that the workplace sometimes is structured in such a way that it excludes the possibility of motherhood mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we should be, you know, I mean, I think we should reconsider that, you know, also with the consideration that yes, children sometimes make it impossible to have an efficient meeting. Right. Um, but there must be a way around that. And so I, I think, you know, Slaughter's proposal, and she doesn't get that much into specific, she's, she mentioned some things, but you know, the proposal is like, we need to rethink the workplace.
Speaker 0 00:10:56 And I know like some people don't like that, that option, but I mean, you know, if women are going to work and, you know, I mean, this is our economic situation that most people have to work. Um, it's, it's just not possible for, I think for, for most people to, for only, you know, only one, one partner to one spouse to work. Um, we, we do need to like, sort of reconsider that and, and find a way for motherhood to be, you know, for us to recognize it Right. As, as the identity of a woman who is also a professional mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's just my view, you know, I think that there can be a way to do that, but, um, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:11:30 Well, it's also interesting that if you think about people, and I mean, in part, it seems that one of the stories that our culture wants to tell us, and that you said you learned as a student at Princeton, is the idea that professional work will satisfy your deepest belongings mm-hmm. <affirmative> and your search for meaning and purpose. And it seems to me that one thing that everyone discovers and that everyone knows is that professional work will never Yeah. Satisfy your deepest
Speaker 0 00:12:01 Belongs.
Speaker 2 00:12:02 I mean, and so we have kind of this, this, this kind of obvious contradiction in a way that's at the heart of much of our educational system, right. Uh, and, and doesn't mean that work, I think, can become a tremendous part of your meaning and purpose, where you recognize one of the things you have to contribute to the world is, is a professional vocation, an actual skill. Right. You know, a job, something that you can do well that allows you to serve others and, and benefit some, you know, all these things are wonderful, but it's not meant to kind of bear all the weight. And I think that's right. It's right. At times we need, um, maybe something like motherhood and fatherhood mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it seems, I think this is true for fathers to really find, meaning one of the ways fathers, I think intrinsically find meaning and work is providing for family. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um,
Speaker 0 00:12:56 I, I think it's seamless in that sense, right? I mean, our work, if, if work is just a form of self aggrandizement, right? I mean, it's just like interesting. I just feel good mm-hmm. <affirmative> right? When I, when I do my work, well then yeah. That, that's where it really falls short. Right. But like, I think what you're saying is if work is viewed as a form of service Yeah. Right? That, that, that it's part of my, my relationship Right. To others mm-hmm. <affirmative> and a kind of appreciation for, right. So like someone, someone who doesn't have children, for instance, maybe they're not married, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> can also find satisfaction by placing work in a secondary Right. As a means to the end of Right. Human relationships. And so then, like, you know, the fact that we're mothers and fathers mm-hmm. <affirmative> reveals to us, right. Like what the real point was all along. Right? Yeah. It's a sense, like the sense
Speaker 2 00:13:42 That aspect of relationship.
Speaker 0 00:13:43 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:13:44 Uh, and, and, and so then work isn't so to speak, like something, it's not like one part of our life that's cut off and abstracted from the rest of our
Speaker 0 00:13:53 Life. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:13:53 But it, yeah. It brings our relationships bring meaning to our work, and our work brings meanings to our relationships.
Speaker 0 00:13:59 Exactly. Yeah. Uh, including our families, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:02 And in many, I think that the, maybe the normal mode in which people discover this is, um, or at least maybe the, you know, the most common mode where I think people discover it most powerfully is probably through something like fatherhood. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and motherhood, when they, if they happen to have children recognize that here's another person who's totally dependent upon them mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. And that can often awaken Yeah. A sense of like, you know, a sense of responsibility that otherwise is latent.
Speaker 0 00:14:31 It completely changes the way you look at the world, how the way
Speaker 2 00:14:34 You look at yourself. And you spoke a little bit about, um, you know, that you had a child, uh, several years ago. Yeah. How have you discovered that?
Speaker 0 00:14:42 Well, I I think that, you know, the, the sense in which a child is as, as you're saying, so wholly dependent mm-hmm. <affirmative> on, on you, um, as you know, a parent parent, um, really places you, you know, sort of, uh, you know, reinforces your understanding of your place in the cosmos. Right? Wow. I mean, so, so yeah. I mean, I see something very theological in it. Um, the sense in which right. We come into the world, um, blind and naked and Right. And, and so vulnerable. Um, I was also struck by the fact that, you know, babies do tend to fast for the most part. Like, they don't eat very much, you know, they don't know how. Right. They don't even know how to eat Right. In the first like day or two of life. And so inevitably they lose weight and, you know, the vulnerability and, and a sense of the mother's worry increases, right.
Speaker 0 00:15:29 And sort of with, with all that mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, and yet, um, the mother then really right, sees her body right. Sort of as completely encompassing the life of the child, like in such a way that it's even beyond her own, uh, sort of volition, right? It's beyond her own reasoning and deliberation. Um, it's something that nature offers, right? The fact that, I mean, I think like the medievals thought that the flow of milk right? When a baby was born was miraculous. I thought it was like incredible. And they, they drew all sorts of like, theological parallels, right? To mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, the, the nourishment that the church offers us, the nourishment that Christ right. With his wounds Right. Sort of offers us mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and Mary right. Sort of with, with her. So I, I think, um, I think it just completely changes the way that you see mm-hmm. <affirmative> yourself and, and your own, right. Just, just through the very vulnerability of, of this little baby. And then you remember like, God made himself like this. It's just incredible. Right? Like, it just really immense, like sort of, um, yeah. Our dependence. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:28 I think there's an interesting image there. In a way, the mother and, and the father to a certain extent, but especially the mother, discovers the absolute vulnerability of the child. Um, right. Even I remember, I think the first time I was around an infant, you know, the fact that they don't smile for two months or something. It's like these weird things. They're, they're so vulnerable, but in a certain sense, we discover both our ability to care for another one. Yeah. Yeah. But also our vulnerability.
Speaker 0 00:16:55 That's right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:56 Yeah. That, that we can't get out of the vulnerability cycle. Right. You know, that we want to, when we, if we love a child who is so vulnerable, right? Yeah. We, I mean, did you find that that was all a way of almost discovering our own vulnerability
Speaker 0 00:17:11 As well? Yeah. So, but yeah, I think you're also speaking to the fact that, uh, the fact that, for instance, the baby doesn't smile or laugh. I mean, Paul Thomas, I don't think, laughed. He didn't smile at me until I think he was like four months old or something. So I had to wait for it, you know? And yeah, I think what you're speaking to is we feel the vulnerability of, of also loving Right. Another who does not love us back, right? Like the baby does not, I mean, I know, like, I mean, people maybe have these, you know, it's just not true. Like, the baby doesn't love you back. Like they don't mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, they're, they're completely, you know, it's just need, love all the way, right? And, um, you know, and, and yet, right. I think nature helps with this, right? Like nature offers, like the mother all sorts of like chemical and hormonal, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> sort of incentives to take care of the child, but, um, and, and emotionally, right? Um, that, but that has to be practiced too, and Yeah. And you, you learn right? To love another creature who mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, maybe doesn't deserve it. Right? Instead, like, you know, flings like poop on you and like, you know, gets you really, like, it's just messy, you know, you're, you're sleep deprived, right?
Speaker 2 00:18:15 So somehow in the midst of all that, what I hear you suggesting is this idea is that we discover one of our greatest callings and purposes, right? Yeah. We have this latent capacity to not only to like, to pass on life and nourish life and educate life, right. Um, but it's almost like we don't know it's there.
Speaker 0 00:18:32 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:33 Um, until
Speaker 0 00:18:34 We Right. It's in our bodies. Yeah. Like, there's something very late, like there's something biological about it. Yeah. Yeah. I think for a father, it feels a little different. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? And, and in some sense, I feel like the, I think the mother has to mediate, right? And, and show, maybe show the father. I mean, I don't know, I, I don't wanna speak for old fathers here, but, um, in, in some sense, for instance, uh, the mother knows first, like, when the child begins to move, right? Sure. Yeah. And then the natural thing is like, she, she gets her husband to come in, like, like, come, like, like, feel it, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so there's some sense in which the mother is a kind of intercessor mm-hmm. <affirmative> for the child, that kind of meeting a relationship, um, and all the more, right? You think like, if mothers are not interested in actually mothering, then why do we expect fathers to be around? Why do we expect fathers to
Speaker 2 00:19:14 Father, you know, there's an interesting line from, I don't remember where it is in the Old Testament, but I think it might be Isaiah, but it's that idea that, you know, should a mother forget her child, um, you know, God will still remember us.
Speaker 0 00:19:27 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:28 Uh, and
Speaker 0 00:19:29 That's supposed to be an argument, uh, from absurdity, right? Yeah. It's like, that is not possible. It is not possible that the mother should forget her own child. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:37 Uh, absolutely. And it seems like in a certain sense in our culture, we have a mother, like, we have mothers forgetting their children, and so far as they forget to be mothers at all. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, we have a, that's kind of like where I feel like your work about trying to help people remember, you know, motherhood, um, as seeing that. So, uh, we're gonna take a break now, but when we get back, I'd love to ask a few more questions about, uh, how do we, how do we learn from motherhood when things go wrong? So we'll talk a little bit about that after the break.
Speaker 0 00:20:08 Okay. Great.
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Speaker 2 00:20:42 Well, uh, Janice, I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, what happens when I think people have a desire maybe to become a mother, perhaps they're married and they can't have children, uh, or perhaps they want to get married and they can't find a suitable, uh, spouse. How does, how does reflections on motherhood right? Help people who are in such situations?
Speaker 0 00:21:09 Yeah, that's a great question. Um, get a dog. No, I'm just kidding. <laugh>. <laugh>, that's what most people do, right? That's very, yeah. No, I think, but, but I think actually that's a, you know, what we see, which is not new, right? Um, it's just kind of, we've all seen this among the aristocracy, right? Who are childless, like they have, they have pets. Interesting. We're seeing it more among the middle class now, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, everyone has a pet, like, who doesn't have a child, and Yeah. Um, you know, there is something there, right? Like, I, I think we do have to recognize that, uh, a person who does this right, has maternal instincts mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, among the millennial generation. Like, people will joke about how like their plant babies, you know, are sufficient for them, right? It's like, I have enough, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you, you either have a plant baby or you have a fur baby.
Speaker 0 00:21:52 Um, and, you know, I mean, as someone who formerly thought motherhood would be, you know, more burdensome than it were, to be honest with you, you know, I mean, I was just raised by this culture, you know, that said, like, you know, your career, you know, professional life and, you know, it's more fun, right? Without, life is more fun without children. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, these maternal, you know, in instincts, like, just won't go away, right? And, um, and you can't satisfy them, right? With, with plant babies and fur babies, right? <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and I don't, you know, you can't really explain that to someone, you know, until they've actually become a mother to some extent, biologically mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there is a kind of problem here, right? Um, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, there's a philosopher La Paul who writes about, um, her, she, she argues that there's certain experiences that we really can't know about until we actually experience them.
Speaker 0 00:22:37 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? And she actually ties, I think this has interesting implications for women who have abortions because they think that, right? Um, having a child is not gonna be worth it, or it's not going to be right. It's not gonna be a good experience. Um, and, and Paul's argument seems to have the implication that you don't know, that you can't possibly know that, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so yeah, there is something about biological motherhood that, you know, just as, um, you can't really theorize it until, you know, you can't understand it until you've experienced it. But at the same time, I do think that there is a kind of account of motherhood, the biological account that can be analogized to, like, we can see an analogy for the way in which biological mother motherhood, right? This natural sense of motherhood, um, this giving of the very body of the mother, right?
Speaker 0 00:23:21 There's a sense in which, like, the mother's body is the, is a person's first home, right? It is the entire cosmos, like contained within, um, just this, right? And like, there's everything in her body, like has the sustenance that a child needs mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I mean, there is this, I mean, breastfeeding is like, it's painful for a lot of women, but it's also incredible, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that like, you can just like, you know, if it works out for you, you can just take your child anywhere mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? And like the, the child will be just fine mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? They don't need, um, I mean, you may have to sort of scrounge around for food, right? But that's another story. I mean, so I think, um, in some sense, like the analogy for that to a kind of, you know, what theologians might call spiritual motherhood, um, the, the sense in which, um, Mary actually encompasses both the spiritual motherhood as well as the natural motherhood, right? There's something like, kind of incredible about the way in which she shows us that the, the natural is not enough mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, our, our understanding of the natural, however, you know, offers us an understanding of how we can love others, right. By, by giving of ourselves in this way too. You know?
Speaker 2 00:24:21 And, and maybe the way you describe it, you know, it seems like we all do actually maybe experience motherhood in a way mm-hmm. <affirmative> the normal, I mean, obviously there's, there are few extreme situations, but most of us have had mothers. Yes. You know, and so maybe our first experience of motherhood is on the receiving end, right. And learning to become aware of, and appreciative of the role of our own mothers, so that like, we're already in a world in which motherhood is a reality. That's right. Right. Even if we aren't, even if, you know, a young woman or a woman is not able to be a mother, and even just, you know, my own growing up, I remember having two older sisters and, uh, you know, I don't know that they were secondary mothers, but they were in a certain sense, maternal in their love. Uh, they were, I think I always kind of grew up thinking like they were my biggest fans, so to speak. Um, and, you know, I feel like, so there is a kind of sense in which I think many family members kind of express that kind of maternal sense of love mm-hmm. <affirmative> and care and nurturing Yeah. And support. And, you know, that kind of, and I, it seems that's a way that maybe, you know, any wo any woman can, uh, bring that, you know, I don't bring that disposition to a variety of relationships. Correct.
Speaker 0 00:25:48 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Julian of Norwich, like the, the anchors, right? Yeah. Like, she, I think she,
Speaker 2 00:25:52 She's a teenth century.
Speaker 0 00:25:54 That's Yeah. Like some people think she takes it a bit far right. With like describing God as mother. Right? So she extends this concept of motherhood mm-hmm. <affirmative> as this nourishing, nurturing, giving of self holy Right. To another unconditionally as Right. If, if that's the quality of motherhood, like is her argument then, then off, like all the more Right. God is mother. Yeah. Right. And so, so I mean, some people, you know, think that's a bit too far, but I do think too, like, we want to, you know, she also says God is father. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I mean, yeah, I've thought myself, um, you know, uh, you know, a lot on, on the sense in which like, mother as nurturing also needs father as challenging mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? So like, the mother's impulse. Anyway, this is my impulse. Right. Especially as like a Chinese mom, it's like, eat, eat, eat.
Speaker 0 00:26:36 Right? Like, you've got to eat food. Like, you have to, like, I have to feed you, I have to close you. I've got to, I've got to do everything for you, you know? And the father says no, right? Like, let him figure it out himself. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, maybe it means that, you know, he's gonna be hungry a little bit, but he has to figure out how to eat on his own. And I think that's hard for a mom. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Like, the worst possible thing for me anyway, is like to see anyone in my house go hungry mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? So, right. Like the mother, the mother's body Right. Just speaks of this, right. It's like, this is your food mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I'm always available to you. Right. Like, anyway, that's like kind of the attachment parenting model, right. Which, um, I, I think is very natural and instinctive for women.
Speaker 0 00:27:14 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, there's a limit to it, right? Like of course, like we wanna balance that with like the mother's own, like sort of mental health, right? Sure. But, um, but there, there is something natural about just, you know, giving and giving and giving. But then the father, I think right, is the one who helps her to, to say, okay. Like, sometimes material gift is not, is not all right. And I think Mary shows this, right? It's not just material gift, it's spiritual gift too. And spiritual gift sometimes means that we have to hold back and we have to discipline, like for the child's good. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so this, this is a hard teaching, right? Because like the child does come to us so dependent, vulnerable, and needy, and the mother just wants to give everything mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but the child is gonna change and they grow, and they, they get to a point in which they need to become independent and learn to depend not on mom or dad, but on God. And that that means like becoming a person in their
Speaker 2 00:28:09 Own right. Yeah. And, and there is that sense that, uh, in the ancient tradition, uh, courage is the willingness to suffer mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Uh, the willingness to fall in battle, the willingness
Speaker 0 00:28:19 To suffer suffer. Yeah. And courage is Andrea manliness. Right.
Speaker 2 00:28:21 And courage is also the willingness to let others suffer. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> right. To let your comrades fall in battle, to let others suffer. And we see, right, Mary in the Catholic tradition, uh, right. Revealed not only to be the one who nourished and protected and tried to protect Jesus, except when she lost him, um, when he was 12. Right. Um, but then has to let him suffer on the cross, has to let him suffer in his public ministry. Yeah. Uh, and, you know, she has that willingness to do both. There's, um, uh, there's a, you know, uh, Jordan Peterson, uh, recently was talking about the pieta, the beautiful image, uh, in, in Rome, uh, Michaelangelo did of Mary holding the body of Jesus. And it's interesting, her body's actually like twice the size of his body.
Speaker 0 00:29:11 Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah. In
Speaker 2 00:29:13 The, in this beautiful sculpture so that she can hold
Speaker 0 00:29:15 Encompassing his
Speaker 2 00:29:16 Whole body. But, uh, he's said in a way that everybody, every mother who has a child is bringing in a child mm-hmm. <affirmative> into the world
Speaker 0 00:29:24 Yeah. And has to help that courage. Yeah. And we have to have
Speaker 2 00:29:27 That courage. And, and so it is also a great act of, you know, courage. And I think that's, I think that's just hard. I think a lot of people are in a way afraid of suffering themselves and afraid of, uh, their loved ones
Speaker 0 00:29:37 Suffering. That's a great contrast, by the way, from Achilles's mother. Right. So Achilles' mother, Thetas the goddess. Yes. Uh, like repeatedly asks him not to go into battle because she knows he's going to die mm-hmm. <affirmative> right. At the hands of, of Paris. Right. But, um, of course, you know, he has to do the manly thing and, and go into battle, but it is just striking. Yeah. I think, you know, you think of Thetas as the goddess mother of Achilles and, and Mary, right. Like this contrast. Right. Which Mary says Yes, yes. Everything, and doesn't make it, you know, easier, doesn't make it. Yeah. That's hard. But
Speaker 2 00:30:08 Yeah. But that is in some ways, yeah. Um, right. I think the vocation of all mothers and fathers at some point is to say, right, yeah. To
Speaker 0 00:30:17 God, to God and to God like
Speaker 2 00:30:18 It be done to me and to them according to I will. Yeah. Um, just a, maybe a different topic, but related, you know, I think the question of adoption often shows up. I've, I've noticed even in popular culture, almost more of a suspicion of adoption. I think adoption rates have gone down broadly in the us. Uh, sometimes there are, um, even in popular culture shows or different things, kind of a certain sense of, um, you know, I don't know. Like instead of seeing adoption as something beautiful, we often recognize some of the, we're very attentive, I think, to some of the, um, maybe, you know, the desire, you know, maybe to know biological parents or different things like this mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but how do you, how, how does adoption fit in? I mean, it seems, it's kinda strange if you're describing motherhood as primarily or as first discovered as a biological reality. Yeah. Um, it seems like human beings are kind of weird because throughout history, we've also practiced non-biological motherhood. Yeah. Um, and the practice of adoption, right. Is, is, is, is a real thing. So Yeah. How does that fit into an account of
Speaker 0 00:31:32 Motherhood? Yeah. There, there's so much to say about adoption. I, I mean, I think one, one thing is, is, you know, to notice how difficult adoption can be. Like we, we don't want to, you know, put on, you know, have a rosy picture of this mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, it can be very challenging for, for families to adopt. Um, and yet I think, you know, especially in light of the theological fact that we are all adopted, right? Wow. Um, as god's children mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we, you know, can, can view adoption as actually like offering the paradigm of the real work of a parent. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, you didn't get the benefit of having the child get to know your body Right. For the first time. That's huge, huge advantage. Right. Um, like babies, by the way, like know the scent of their mothers, right? Like, they can pick out like through the milk, like, cuz it smells like the amniotic fluid mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 00:32:16 So, you know, there, so you're lacking all of those advantages. Not only that, and, you know, people call, you know, psychologists call this the primal wound, right? Like of the child being separated from the mother mm-hmm. <affirmative> under whatever circumstances, right. In whatever way. But, but it's that too is, you know, even if the baby doesn't remember it later on explicitly, there's an implicit wound there, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, so there are all these disadvantages that theologically we would say, okay, like, there's sin, right? They're just as sin, and yet God adopts us, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like as for Lauren and sinful, and, you know, like sort of miserable as we are.
Speaker 2 00:32:51 Yeah. And you mean they're kind of, are you kind of mean like that kind of, almost like that's that state of brokenness and wounded, the brokenness,
Speaker 0 00:32:57 The evil
Speaker 2 00:32:57 Yeah. Like not evil in so far as like personal Right. Evil
Speaker 0 00:33:01 That may have contributed kinda
Speaker 2 00:33:02 The general sense of, um, this, this kind of way in which we're born into a world that is not yet our home, right?
Speaker 0 00:33:10 Almost. That's
Speaker 2 00:33:10 Right. And so, so, so then how does adoption Yeah. Kind of enter into that brokenness?
Speaker 0 00:33:17 I, I think in so many ways, right? I, I don't, so one, one very important thing right? Is that I think, I think parents should not think that parenthood just comes naturally, especially like after, as the child begins to grow, develop psychologically, spiritually, um, there's so much I think, moral formation that should go into parenthood that I think it's scandalous actually, that no one offers this as a matter of course, like everyone's offered like birthing classes mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, even like nurse, maybe like, to some extent nursing classes mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Things like this, no one teaches you, right? Like how to actually parent a child and, you know, a very deliberative, like, conscious, right. And the, the stuff that adoptive parents do, it's just incredible, right? It's, it's like heroism beyond <laugh>, right? Um, so if given that's suffering in the background,
Speaker 2 00:34:01 There's a way that, so the natural paradigm would be kind of biological motherhood and fatherhood Yeah. Which then adoptive parents, um, realize an instantiate through their own love and decision. Right? Um, but it almost here you suggesting in a certain sense that the adoptive parent becomes almost something like the normative standard by which we judge the biological parent, because the biological parent almost has to make a decision to kind of adopt their own child, right? Yes. This is a child that I be, that is my physical lineage, but am I going to claim Yeah, that's right. And adopt. That's
Speaker 0 00:34:42 Right. Exactly. And
Speaker 2 00:34:43 Love this
Speaker 0 00:34:44 Child. And I think that's a very important paradigm for us, especially in light of the fact that we cannot assume that our children are just like us, right? Like, children are their own people. Like Absolutely. You know, like they, you know, they may have a completely different temperament. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, he's going to have my, my son is going to have a vocation that I do not know about. It's mysterious to me, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I think like parents, biological parents may have a tendency to think that we possess our children, right? It's like, I knew your beginning, right? Like, I made you. Right. Like this sort of thing, but we don't, right. Like, we don't know actually. Right. There's a kind of mystery about the way the child comes about. Like the mother doesn't know, like when and where. Exactly. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like the child is conceived in her own body, right?
Speaker 0 00:35:26 Yeah. So, so like to preserve a sense of mystery, I think adoptive parents can help us to see how important it is Yeah. To preserve that mystery about the other person, even if we think, okay, this is my flesh and blood. Yeah. But no, like, you don't know this child, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and they have a vocation that only God knows mm-hmm. <affirmative> because he calls the child, right? Yeah. And we are just cooperators really, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like in this like, act of bringing a belt, like this new life, which is incredible, right? To have this like completely novel being right suddenly in the world. Like there was a time before when we did not exist. And yet, so like God calls us, and I think adoptive parents can very, um, healthfully remind us, right? Us biological parents of that the need for this formation, the deliberative act of parenting,
Speaker 2 00:36:09 And the reception of the gift and the unknown. Yeah. Uh, you know, and I'm sure you know this, but, uh, you know, when Aquinas talks about procreation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he always talks about like, uh, one of the, you know, the, the duties of the natural law and the inclination of the natural law, right. It's towards the procreation and education of children. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think sometimes today we focus on simply Right. We're so worried either avoiding Yeah. Fertility or getting fertility exactly as we want it when we want it. Right. Um, that we overlook this whole dimension of Yeah. Of lovings moral formation, spiritual formation, even the formation of, um, like the human formation of how to fail mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, largely that's what human beings are good at. I've discovered as I've gotten older and have older children, the main thing is, it's a question of how do we learn to fail mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 2 00:37:01 Without giving up, how do we learn to make mistakes Yeah. And find our way again. Yeah. That's really, that's, and I feel like that's what motherhood, but, but, but in some ways a modernity, it seems like we have this tendency, we wanna get it right, and we don't wanna make mistakes. We're kind of afraid of making mistakes. And I don't know about you as a mother, but at least for me as a father, fatherhood is largely a way of my discovering my mistakes, but also recognizing that good comes through them. That, um, that by not giving up and giving myself and others the space to make mistakes and the space to grow is a real part of that vocation. So the, the, I like your sense that the fatherhood or the motherhood is not about like saying, oh, this is my project. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is my person Yeah. That I get to shape. Yeah. It's more, this is a mystery that I get to receive and Yeah. Offer the best that I have.
Speaker 0 00:37:54 We're custodians. So in that sense, we're not that far off from the adoptive parent, I think. Yeah. I think that's how we should view it, you know? Wow.
Speaker 2 00:38:02 There's a beautiful prayer that I, um, was taught, um, but you know, Lord, before they were mine they were yours. Yeah. And I put them back in your hands. Yeah. That's beautiful. And, um, and maybe there is something that the biological parent has a temptation to see their children as their
Speaker 0 00:38:17 Own possess possessions.
Speaker 2 00:38:19 Yeah. And of course, any, uh, so, but I think that that's a really powerful, uh, theme. Uh, you know, you did have the chance to teach this class, uh, to students at Ave Maria University. What were some, I don't know, what were some of the things that maybe you remember from teaching that class? Uh, what were either questions that student ha students have or maybe, uh, things that students have shared with you that they like took from the class?
Speaker 0 00:38:43 Yeah. Um, I, I think my, you know, our students are, are very serious about, about marriage. Um, and, and they're very serious about becoming parents. And they understand that, you know, marriage has this important, uh, you know, implication. I mean, it's essential to marriage that, that we, we want children, you know? And, um, you know, they, they had all, you know, it was a very, very lively class. There were lots of debates in the class about, you know, what would co what constitutes grave reason for practicing nfp mm-hmm. <affirmative> Right. For, um, for postponing the birth of a child. Um, there were debates about, uh, uh, how work life balance. I mean, this question about Yeah. Sort of, can you be a professional woman outside of the home, uh, and also be a mother mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what does that look like? Sure. Um, there were also lots of questions about the relationships between men and women.
Speaker 0 00:39:29 Um, you know, what is, what is the female nature compared with the mans? And we read a lot of Edith Stein, and some people hated her <laugh>, and some people loved her, you know? And so, yeah. I mean, it was a very, very lively class. Um, uh, and, and there was just all manner of, you know, debate, you know, that, that you can imagine about every topic. Wow. And I think that's good, right? Like, I mean, you know, these, you know, I, I certainly have my own views about motherhood, but I'm also a philosopher and I recognize that, you know, we want to keep open some of these questions and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and have objections, right? And have people, you know, uh, offer like disagreeing, uh, viewpoints sometimes, and that, that actually helps us, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> it furthers the, the discussion. So, yeah. So yeah, I don't teach the course as if it's everything settled. Certainly. Yeah. Um, but, you know, uh, I think that, yeah, I think the class was very fruitful for, for myself as well as all my student.
Speaker 2 00:40:18 Good pun intended though. <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:40:20 So, uh,
Speaker 2 00:40:22 Question, uh, for you now, the course was philosophy of motherhood, um, and you're a philosopher. What is it? What, what about a, like what, what's the importance of the theology of motherhood and what is it specifically maybe that, that you've learned or you think is important to know? Um, that in a way we know better, in a way, because God has revealed it to us?
Speaker 0 00:40:48 Yeah, that's a great question. And I mean, I think the course, you know, that, that we offered was quite theological, actually. I think it was cross lister with theology, actually. Okay. Um, for, for at least one person. But, um, yeah, I, I don't, it, it's, it doesn't strike me as possible really to fully understand the significance of motherhood from, from merely the natural or biological point of view, as fascinating as that account is. Okay. Like, and I think like the science of motherhood is really fascinating. Yeah. Um, it, it's incredible by the way that, you know, uh, we know so much about the fetus and the womb and like, you know, people think it's amazing that like babies can hear right at like 21 weeks or whatever, like the heartbeat mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, but none of that seems to matter, right? Like when you don't want the baby, right?
Speaker 0 00:41:29 Like when you don't want the child and, you know, forget about all of that science, right? Um, so, so I think it's very worth, uh, studying the embryology, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the, the, the, the science of the fetus. Um, and, and, and the hidden life, right? Of the baby, but as well as Right, the life of, uh, maternity, right. The, how, how fascinating, um, it is to be a mother. But at the end of the day, I think that temptation to say, I made this baby remains, right? And to say like, this child is mine. I can, you know, do with them what I want. Right? And, um, you know, I mean, or, or give them as much autonomy as I want or whatever, right? Um, it just seems really arbitrary, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> based on that, unless we see motherhood as itself a vocation that begets another vocation.
Speaker 0 00:42:16 So, so what I mean by that is, right, it's not mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's not just that, you know, nature, you know, is like, like it just happened, right? Like we had a right. Um, like there are no accidents, right? Within theology, like says nothing is random, right? There is no haphazard, right? Um, God, right? Is he sees all right. And he knew us before we even existed in some sense, right? Yeah. So, um, I think from that point of view, a mother and a father cannot possibly see things just from the natural point of view, Uhhuh, right? Like, it's not up to us to dictate the fate of our children, nor our own fate for that matter. And, you know, we have to see ourselves as merely a character within this great theater that God has arranged, right? Yeah. There, there's this great, like the great play mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 0 00:43:01 Right of life, right? That, that, that God is the composer of, and like, we're just a, we're just a character within it. Yeah. Like, sort of, you know, yes. Like we're given responsibility for child and a huge honor, you know, it just feels like a huge honor mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, to to be the custodian and to, to sort of help the child see his vocation. And so I think to see it that way, I, I don't, yeah, I I just think it falls really short. Like if we don't have that supernatural perspective because, um, what are we than as parents? Like, we're no better really than the cow or the horse or the, you know, what have you. Right? Um, the, the animal mothers that, you know, anyone can be a mother, right? <laugh> like any animal can, can become a mother. Absolutely. Absolutely. But only, but only human beings can try to attain, right?
Speaker 0 00:43:45 The, the supernatural vision that Mary had when she had you, right? There's something like really powerful for me anyway, like, you know, when we couldn't have children, like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like we just never mm-hmm. You know, nothing happened and out of the blue someday, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> what one day, um, Paul Thomas was conceived, and of course, like my temptation was, I'm scared to death that I'm gonna lose this baby, right? Sure. Like, I've never been pregnant before, like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then what? And then after he's born, I'm scared to death that I'm gonna <laugh> that he's gonna die. Right? Like, and so this is the mother's worst, worst fear Yeah. As, as we've talked about mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that, that the child should die. And yet it's only a supernatural vision that says, but that may be the child's vocation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> it may be that God is calling your child to him. Right. And, and that's like, that, that just changes everything. It, like, it's not like, okay, the natural remains no, the natural, I think. Right. Like, there's no tragedy in that. Like if we see things with the eyes of Mary, right? This is like the great triumph of Christ on the cross. Right. Her own son on the cross. So
Speaker 2 00:44:43 Anyway, yeah. That's, yeah. That's really beautiful. And, and I think discovering, yeah. Not only that God is the creator and that he gives ordered meaning to the universe, uh, but he's a merciful loving father. Yeah. Right. Who will mercifully, if, if we are willing right, to turn to him, will, uh, shower us with his mercy will welcome us home. Uh, and, and the beauty in some ways right, with our children is that, you know, if they struggle that they can also turn back or even if Right. Even if they depart from this life, if they die, that they can turn back to God's loving arm. So No, those are, that's really a beautiful, uh, just a beautiful image, um, of how Right. The faith else us discover our own vocations. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, just I wanted to close with three, uh, uh, kind of brief questions you can give, uh, quick answers if you'd like. Uh, but so what's a book you're reading?
Speaker 0 00:45:37 Oh, um, <laugh>. Well, I've got, I've got a, the Summa theology right now in my backpack. That's awesome. I'm reading, I actually picked up, uh, uh, I've started reading St. LA's, uh, again, right here, autobiography, because it's come up in conversation, um, many times, uh, over the past few weeks for me. Sorry, this is a longer answer, but No, it's fine. Just quickly, I mean, I was at a, a conference, um, on Mother Teresa was the inaugural conference of the St. Mother Teresa Institute. Yeah. Um, and our old friend, um, uh, Jim Tuy Yeah. Was there. And so, um, you know, I, I think what I learned from that conference too is how much the little flower influenced Mother Teresa's sense of her being a mother. And so that really struck me, and I said, okay, I need to reread this. Wow. But yeah, I was, uh, very struck by the fact that mother, for Mother Teresa, the greatest honorific was being called mother. Yeah. Like, even when she was elevated, you know, to the highest possible, like she said, no, Comey mother,
Speaker 2 00:46:32 I think it was both Francis and his canonization, homily for Mother Teresa Yeah. Who actually said, we're gonna continue to call her Mother Teresa because she is a mother. Yeah. All of ours. So I think it's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Um, second question is, what's, what's a daily habit or practice that you do to find meaning and purpose in your life?
Speaker 0 00:46:52 Um, yeah, that's a <laugh>. Uh, I, yeah. So I think, um, one, one habit that I really try to instill is to get out of bed and instead of checking my phone mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:47:02 <affirmative>,
Speaker 0 00:47:02 That's great. I try to get down on the ground and I, I, I say to God, like, this day is yours and everything in it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, yeah. I mean, it's hard for us to practice detachment, right. But like this little spiritual practice mm-hmm. <affirmative> like reminds me, like, this days does not belong to me. I'm not gonna be completely in control of it, but I'm gonna do as much as I can to offer to God. So yeah. That's just like one little, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:47:25 That's, that's really wonderful. And, uh, final question, right? This shows about theology. So one of the things we try to think about is that ideas about God matter. Um, and if we don't have good ideas about God, we often have bad ideas about God, <laugh>. Uh, so maybe, you know, what's one bad idea or kind of false belief you had about God that maybe, you know, hurt you, and what's the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:47:49 Wow, that's, uh, that's, I can't possibly give a short answer to that, but <laugh>, I think, um, I remember a point, so I'm a convert and, um, you know, I was raised by awesome parents mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and by awesome, I mean like really ambitious <laugh>, like, you know, like, you know, happiness will be found in achievement too. And, you know, this is me. Like, it, it also is me. Like, I don't, I don't have a problem with saying like, you know, we should be ambitious people, right? Yes. Um, but it also means that, I think I'm speaking too to what you were just saying about like making mistakes. Like it's hard to make mistakes under like a very, like, high ambition, achievement oriented, uh, culture. Yeah. And, um, I, I remember the, the parable of the prodigal son being very, very helpful to me because as you're saying, like God is not just, he's not just perfect in his pure actuality and you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 0 00:48:40 And Okay. We're supposed to be like God in that respect, but he's also a merciful loving father. He's a father who like waits by the road mm-hmm. <affirmative> like day after day, like looking out for you, you know, like come rain or shine. Right. He's like watching, like hoping that we'll, like come to him and, um, this was very helpful for me as a convert, right. From, you know, I mean, I still retain, like, I, I still think, you know, people should, should be ambitious and like you should do as well as you possibly can, like anything that you set your mind to. But on the other hand, um, failure and imperfection and Right. The weakness of the human heart right. Is actually necessary for us to see who we are and to see the truth and to, to attain that excellence too. Like, we can't be excellent without sometimes being not excellent.
Speaker 0 00:49:25 Right. So <laugh> Yeah, and I've seen this too with like being a mom, right? Like, you have to let the child fall a few times and you have to be okay with it and not like freak out. Right. Like panic every time. Like he, you know, he's gotten into like pretty big scrapes before and like, you have to like be able to, you have to let that happen, right? For him to like learn how to, how to flourish in life. So I don't know, I've, I've seen like God as God is a wonderful patient God, and we shouldn't see him as this task master, right. Who expects perfection out of us. And yeah, I mean, it means that all the sacraments of the church are really a very loving, a loving sort of invitation from God. Wow. Right. To like get closer to him. I mean, confession especially mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. It's not this like, okay, recite all the imperfect things you did. Right. All of your failures, but it's rather like Right. The father who says, yeah, I'm not per right. Like the, the father who like yeah. Invites the son home. That's great. And showers sent me out with love.
Speaker 2 00:50:16 So. Well, Dr. Brian Bach, thank you so much for sharing with us your insights about motherhood and, uh, some of the, uh, lessons you learned in developing and teaching, uh, the course on the philosophy of motherhood at Ave Maria.
Speaker 0 00:50:29 So, so grateful for your time here. Thank you. Thank you for the great questions, and I learned a lot from you too. Oh, well thanks so much. Enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 00:50:35 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our enunciation circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
