Speaker 0 00:00:00 Christ came principally to do something. And Saint Paul, using the words of Jesus in First Corinthians, I received from the Lord what I'm handing on to you. That is on the night that he was betrayed. He took bread, broke it, blessed it, gave it to his others. Do this in memory of me. And then, and then Paul goes on to say, like, as often as we this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim that death of the Lord until he comes. The charismatic act of the church party salons is the Eucharist.
Speaker 2 00:00:32 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Dnet. And today I am joined by Monsignor Michael Heinz, who is the academic dean at Mount St. Mary's Seminary in Emmetsburg, Maryland. So welcome to the show,
Speaker 0 00:00:50 Father. Thank you, professor Dny.
Speaker 2 00:00:52 Excellent. So glad to have you here. And, uh, a fun fact, uh, uh, you know, father Heinz and I were actually graduate students together, uh, 20 some years ago, almost 25 years ago, at, uh, the University of Notre Dame a long time ago.
Speaker 0 00:01:05 So, yes, I I sat at the feet of the master, Michael Dophin,
Speaker 2 00:01:08 <laugh> hardly. Um, but, and, uh, so we're, we're, we're beginning, I want to do, for the podcast, I wanna do a handful of series or like a, a series on the Eucharist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the bishops in the United States have called for a eucharistic revival, helping us Right. Lay people to our en theologians, helping the church in the United States to really recover, uh, a great sense of like, revival reviving. We have to revive, uh, relive reinspire our understanding of the Eucharist, our devotion to the Eucharist. Right. This is really mm-hmm. <affirmative> as Vatican, uh, two says. Right. It's a source and summit of our faith.
Speaker 0 00:01:53 Absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:01:54 And, and so often I think it's something that we, you know, can easily take for granted. Uh, we know the studies in some ways, uh, that sometimes come out the show that a, a number of Catholics, a high percentage of them at least, who identify as Catholics, don't believe in, in, in the real presence of, uh, Christ in the Eucharist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, uh, what a loss. Mm-hmm. Right. That people are almost alone in the world without cr, without Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, often I think people don't believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, cuz they don't really believe in the real presence of Christ. I
Speaker 0 00:02:23 Think, I think that's a good part of it. And, and I, those who don't believe, I think that's exactly right. I also wonder, I would love to see the studies and the way the questions are phrased mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if the question is phrased, can you explain trans substantiation? <laugh>, the majority of Catholics wouldn't have a clue. Yeah. But I do think there's a good number of Catholics who, who know it's Jesus. Yeah. They couldn't say how or why, but they know it is. Yeah. Does that mean we don't have more work to do Catechetically didactically in terms of evangelization? Of course we do. But, uh, so I, I I think sometimes those numbers can be skewed to make it look as though Sure. The Catholic church is on the decline. Well, we have our work cut out for us. Yes. Believe me. I think there's much work to be done, done in terms of encouraging both greater understanding, greater devotion, and greater practice of the
Speaker 2 00:03:03 Eucharist. Yeah. That's, that's so well put, father. And so, uh, your, your specialization is, uh, in, uh, the early church, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the great, uh, the fathers of the church mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the Apostolic fathers and, and, and, uh, later fathers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so I thought it would be great today to talk really about what do the fathers, the early fathers of the church teach about Eucharist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, because I think sometimes people, we have this certain sense of we have scripture and then we have the later teachings of the church. But, you know, scripture wasn't in a vacuum. It was actually written amidst the early history of the church. And nicely, sometimes even some of the saints that we have writing about the Eucharist in the second century knew mm-hmm. <affirmative> people who knew people Right. Who knew Jesus. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I think most famously. Right. Uh, isn't it the case that at least, uh, Ignatius and Polycarp are understood to probably have been disciples of John cer
Speaker 0 00:04:01 Polycarp? Certainly, yes. And, and, uh, and yeah. As Polycarp would've known, reported that he knew the Apostle John.
Speaker 2 00:04:07 Exactly. Yes. And I think it was, was it Ignatius that knew Polycarp?
Speaker 0 00:04:10 Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:04:11 Yes. So, so, right.
Speaker 0 00:04:12 It's kinda, and and Ana knew Polycarp as well,
Speaker 2 00:04:14 So, and Aaron Aus That's right. And so it's kinda like, you want to know what John teaches? Well, one thing would be to ask somebody who knew somebody who knew. Right. You know, in Huran asis, and
Speaker 0 00:04:25 Which is exactly how AEs says, we have to understand apostolic succession. Yes. You know, there's no secret teaching of Jesus. We wanna know what Jesus taught the persons to ask will be the persons who succeeded those Tom, he spoke, which would be the successes of the apostles, those who are now bishops in diocese.
Speaker 2 00:04:40 Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think Right. He gives that beautiful line where he says, right. You know, and, and especially Peter and Paul mm-hmm. <affirmative> who died in Rome mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so we can trace apostolic succession back to Rome, and that was already contested. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> around Iran, Aus of, of Leon. For listeners who may not know as a second century, uh, brilliant, um, you know, both Saint and brilliant bishop, uh, and teacher, uh, and, uh, but probably wrote around one 60.
Speaker 0 00:05:06 Well,
Speaker 2 00:05:06 Yep. Exactly. In, in that rough area. And, uh, Ignatius of Antioch, another, uh, saint. He, he died and was martyred in 1 0 7. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So we're getting very close to the time of the apostle. So I thought, just for listeners who, who may not be familiar, uh, there's a little section in the catechism from another, uh, I believe a another, uh, second century mm-hmm. <affirmative> Saint named Justin Martyr. And I wanted to read this and father, like, ask you to kind of unpack it for the listener. So, by the way, this is in the catechism. It's number 1345. And he basically gives a description of the Eucharistic celebration as he puts it. And he writes this around 1 55. And it's just shocking. 2000 years later, well, 1900 years later, right. Like this reality of the mass
Speaker 0 00:06:01 We're doing the, we're doing the same thing. Yes,
Speaker 2 00:06:03 Exactly. It somehow started and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it started really as soon as we mm-hmm. <affirmative> have any evidence. But, so this is what he says on the day, we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or county or country gather in the same place. The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read as much as time permits when the reader is finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things. Right. We have the scripture readings mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then we have, uh, the homily. Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions and faithful through the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation when the prayers are concluded, we exchange the kiss.
Speaker 2 00:06:53 Right. The kiss of peace. Then someone brings a bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren. He takes them, offers praise and glory to the father of the universe through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. And for considerable time, he gives thanks. Right. And gives thanks. In Greek is Eucharist diem. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. The Eucharist is really just the giving of thanks to God that we have been judged worthy to receive these gifts. When he has concluded the prayers and the Thanksgivings all present, give voice to an acclimation by saying Amen. When he presides has given thanks, and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons, give to those present the eucharistic bread and wine and water and take them to those who are absent. Wow. So, right. Just kind of amazing. So would you, uh, just kind of, there's a lot there and Sure. Listeners may not have heard all of it, but, uh, and it's again, just so people can see that if they want, it's, uh, the catechism 1345.
Speaker 0 00:08:01 Yeah. The, the first thing to note is that there are some people who assume the mass is a medieval invention or renaissance. Mm-hmm. Or there's some who hold that. Basically it was the Council of Trent had told us what the mass was, but in fact, the basic structure is found as early as 1 55 in terms of liturgy of the word, liturgy of the Eucharist, the, the elements, the memoirs of the Apostles. By that he means the gospels. Yeah. The right is the prophets. All the New Testament were read together mm-hmm. <affirmative> Okay. And understood together, the, the scriptures, the Old Testament always is understood in light of the saving work of Jesus. So the New Testament provides the lens through which the Old Testament is under clearly most clearly understood. There was also a homily. Okay. He says the, the, the presider, the bishop speaks in exhortation.
Speaker 0 00:08:41 There's preaching. There's also what we know is the prayer of the faithful common prayer said for, uh, the needs of the church and the world. And interestingly, we see the sign of peace take place not during the Eucharistic prayer, at the end of the prayer of the faithful Look, there's the, there's a, a kiss of pieces, part of the, of the celebration. Then, then of course there's the offertory gifts are brought forward bread and water and wine as we do today. And water and wine is used still because Jesus did it that way. Mm-hmm. Um, we don't in the time of Christ, the, to make the wine last and to cut it because it was very strong. One had to use water to make it more palatable, which is why Christ used water and wine. And, but we continue that practice, even though contemporary wine makers don't make wine that strong.
Speaker 0 00:09:22 We do that because Christ did it, and it took on in the Middle Ages, sort of symbolic and allegorical interpretations. But the fact is the practice we retain as the practice of Christ, then those gifts are offered. And then notice how it says the Presider, that is, the Bishop offers prayers of Thanksgivings to God the Father through the Son and the Holy Spirit. There's a pattern to all Christian prayers, Trinitarian. Our prayer is all public prayer. Almost all public prayer is addressed to the Father through the Son in the Spirit. And you'll catch those prepositions in the prayers we say from time to time. If you listen carefully, it's not just sort of, uh, a poetic codicil thrown on the end of a prayer. It actually expresses the way we relate to God. God reveals himself as Father, son and spirit, but we relate to God in a sense, in reverse order.
Speaker 0 00:10:05 It's the spirit given to us, which enables us to recognize the Lordship of Jesus Christ, his identity as the beloved son. So it's the Spirit who brings us to faith in the Son, and is the Son. He himself says, who is the way to the Father? So our motive relating to God is in the Spirit through the Son to the Father, and the public prayer of the church replicates that pattern publicly. There's a handful of prayers in the Roman missile dressed directly to, to Christ, to the Son. And, and rightly so, but almost all the others are addressed to the Father. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then there's the distribution of the Eucharist. And further Justin notes those who couldn't be present. Okay. The Eucharist is brought to them by deacons. Yeah. Often in parishes you'll see people after communion, deacons or others taking communi to the second home bound elsewhere.
Speaker 0 00:10:54 In the first apology of chapter two, later, Justin talks about as well, how there's a collection that's taken and that that collection exists for the service of those in need. Justin wants us to connect the Eucharistic celebration, the mass with the Ministry of Charity, the work of charity. That, that what the mass celebrates, it's the engine, so to speak, of the life of charity. The church we're propelled not just by doism, not by a sense of outreach. We do those things, but what moves it is divine charity, which we've experienced in the celebration of the Eucharist that prompts the kind of action, the whole, the entire social mission of the church. The movement of the peripheries, the engine for that has gotta be the Eucharist. When anything else is driving it, it's dislocated.
Speaker 2 00:11:35 Yeah. And that's, so it's like Mother Teresa would say that, uh, it's not social work. Exactly. This is, this is, and which is why the, the missionaries of charity would spend an hour a day in adoration.
Speaker 0 00:11:45 It, it is the gospel. It's just the gospel. This is what the gospel is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, this is, and that's why she'll say, I remember there's a story of one of the sisters saying, why are we spending an an hour? We didn't be doing more work. She said, you know, now we're gonna spend two hours in prayer mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is the heart of it. Yeah. And so there isn't, there doesn't have to be, there shouldn't be a kind of rivalry or opposition between mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the liturgical life of the church and social, social justice, we might say, or outreach to the poor. Yeah. But, but what's, we have to ask ourselves all the time. We have to keep ourselves grounded in the Eucharist as the, as you said, the source and summit quoting Vatican two, the source and summit of our life.
Speaker 0 00:12:20 You know, I wonder too, related to the, your introductory comments, which are so shrewd, you know, the, the problem we face is that the Eucharist is a thing Catholics do or a part of Catholic life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And actually that's misleading because it isn't a thing. It should be the thing. And it isn't part of our life. It is, it is our life. Our life has to be rooted in, centered upon and flow from the Eucharist. Um, it's, it's the dangerous thing. People will say, I've said this in Hoals, and people, our little gas, so like, the most dangerous thing one of us can say is that the Catholic faith is the most important part of my life. And people sort of gasp because it, it shouldn't be a part of our life. It should be what formats our entire life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the Eucharist isn't a thing we do on Sunday, or occasionally on weekday.
Speaker 0 00:13:02 It is actually the mystery, the reality that should format our existence. And we see this in someone like Ignatius of Antioch writing, you know, before 1 0 7, 1 10, we die somewhere in there. He's being carted off to Rome to face execution. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> writes a series of seven letters, and he identifies his, i, his himself, his discipleship, their life with that eucharistic sacrifice, which is to say that our identity is found in that martyrdom and the Eucharist are deeply and intimately connected. Because what martyr to me is, is one, taking in his own life or her own life, living out that mystery of the Eucharist most profoundly by imitating that self gift of Christ. And it's not the kind of imitation of a self-gift where you watch Christ do it and you do it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's, you see Christ do it. And then Christ in you offers himself and you in free union with him do the same.
Speaker 0 00:13:57 So, it's it for Christians, it's especially important to think that imitation of Christ is never simply, here's a moral template, we've gotta do this. It's actually imitation via participation, which is brought, we're we're brought into the mystery of Christ's death and resurrection by the sacraments. He dwells in us by grace. And so when I'm forgiving someone who's hurt me, it's actually Christ forgiving in through me. I'm freely consenting to Christ, forgiving in and through. Yes. Christ, loving in and through me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so that this is the way we avoid any kind of crass, moralism, or pianism where the Christian life is reducible to lots of hard work. Um, and you just gotta to gut it out and fight through it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's an element of that in the Christian life, but it's got, it can't be dislocated from the life of grace.
Speaker 2 00:14:41 Yeah. You know, what, what you're describing there, it reminds me, sometimes people will, on a human level say, you know, I need to stop being a human doing. Mm. And I need, need to be a human being. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we often define ourselves so much by the activities that we do. And it's great to do activities, it's great to work, it's great to be of service, it's great to do things. Uh, but ultimately we know that all those things are, they flow out of our being. And at times those activities are taken away from us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> either through circumstances outside our control, through sickness, through maybe being, you know, fired or different elements mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it's crushing. And we have to kind of recover that sense of being human being. And in a way, what I hear you describing is that our Christian life isn't merely the things we do as Christians, but it's the being of Christ that is in us.
Speaker 2 00:15:36 So not only are we human beings, but now in a way we're kind of Christian beings where the life of Christ we receive in the Eucharist, which is really as the kind of the Eucharist in the mass as the re presentation, the of the one in eternal mm-hmm. <affirmative> life of Christ. Right. The life, death and resurrection of Christ, his self offering, his love of the Father, his journey both through death and back to the Father. That is then the reality that becomes my identity, my being before anything else I do then. Exactly. And I think that's really so en enriching. And of course it shows in a way why, uh, even, you know, again, it's great to be a devoted father. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's great to be a devoted mother. It's great to be a devoted teacher to serve the poor. Um, but one of the things we discover, if we've actually ever done that for a, a period of time, as we begin to realize I can't solve all the problems of the poor.
Speaker 2 00:16:38 I can't somehow make it so that my children, when, you know, won't suffer from a harsh world, and sometimes even from their own. And like my own right. Inadequacy is my own lack of judgment, or their own lack of judgment. And when you're a teacher, you realize, so in a way, when you begin to try to serve other people, one of the things you realize is your fundamental inadequacy. And I think that's why people can burn out. And it can be a crisis of faith. I'm sure priests can go through the same thing. You want to go and you want to go renew a parish and parish may not wanna be renewed. I don't know. And that's when we have to realize it's Christ who is our sufficiency. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's only God. And so our job is to help other people discover not our example, but to discover Christ. Example. And that may mean of course, by trying to, you know, share what God has done for us mm-hmm. <affirmative> and these sorts of elements. But I, I really think that's a powerful recentering of, of Christian life, Christian being as Right. The Eucharist kind of becomes our new, we no longer just breathe natural breath. We kind of breathe the Holy Spirit, which is given to us through the food that is now Jesus Christ.
Speaker 0 00:17:56 And then, and, and it's interesting, who is the apostle St. Paul, the great preacher, the great Proclaimer? If you read Paul's letters and his speeches in Acts, how many words are Jesus? Does he quote, how many times does he cite the sermon on the Mount? How many times does he replicate the narratives or discourses, or parables of Jesus? Never mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Because for Paul, it's important to remember that Jesus didn't come principally to tell us something. The prophets did that to limited effect. Christ came principally to do something. And where you do see Paul talking about using the words of Jesus, the Sisi maba, the very words of Jesus in first Corinthians 1123 and following. Yes. He talks about, you know, I received from the Lord what I'm handing on to you. That is on the night that he was betrayed. He took bread, broke it, blessed it, gave it to his others, do this, and then do this in memory of me. And then, and then Paul goes on to say, like, as often as we this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim that we proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes the charismatic act of the church. Paric salons is the Eucharist
Speaker 2 00:18:57 That Wow. All right. At the heart of Paul. Exactly. Paul's great preaching is
Speaker 0 00:19:02 Paul. And Paul would be the first sharing the Eucharist to tell us that the teaching of Jesus matters very much. However, Paul would want us to make sure that the context in which we under what is the hermeneutic for the preaching of Jesus is the cross resurrection. Mm-hmm. As the gospels were written in that light, in the same way, you know, all the church's catechesis teaching and all of that absolutely important. Yeah. But the context in which those are situated, understood, and lived out, it's got to be eucharistic. It's got to be the pascal mystery that qualifies. So for priests and deacons, those who preach in bishops, I assume too, the altar has to interpret the ambo. That is to say that, yes, death and resurrection of Jesus becomes the lens through which all of scripture, old and New Testament together is understood, read, prayed, and preached.
Speaker 0 00:19:46 Because otherwise we've got sort of like teaching dimension, then we've got this ritual. The, the problem, I think one of the problems that we face in the contemporary situation is that our worship is sort of a ritual action that's reducible to sociological, anthropological, phenomenological interpretation. Like it's important for human beings to have ritual. This is the Christian distinctively, Christian ritual, blah, blah, blah. Thoroughly inadequate. Mm. Yes. And damaging understanding of what, what we do, so that our life, the Eucharist is the center. I think one of the challenges that the prosperity of Catholics in the United States has caused unwittingly, is that, for example, the suburbanization of American Catholicism in the 1920s, in most cities, the parishes were largely ethnic. So you had the, the French church, the Polish church, the Irish church, the German church. And because of linguistic and cultural limitations, those parishes became the center of life for all of those people, not just what they did on Sunday.
Speaker 0 00:20:44 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, everything revolved around the parish, the melting pot. Well, good in many ways has also unwittingly diluted Catholic culture mm-hmm. <affirmative> in our nation, so that now we have these large, beautiful, often financially successful suburban parishes. But the challenge is people see them as I go there on Sunday, fulfill my obligation and go home. There is no other connection to the parish or to Catholic life generally, if they have a connection to Catholic life, it's through Twitter or a blog or mm-hmm. You know, father Mike Schmidtz doing good work, Bishop Baron doing good work. But that the, that their identity as Catholics is unrooted mm-hmm. Really in a particular community, because the, this is the way Catholic ecclesiology works. The church is never reducible to any one particular place, but it can only be encountered in local particular places. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it doesn't exist as a reified.
Speaker 0 00:21:30 There's the church hovering out there that I relate to. No, the only way I can relate to the church is through a particular community, but the church at the same time is never reducible to that community. Yeah. And so, it's a bigger challenge than I think the Eucharistic revival has got to be understood in a broader, a broader question of Catholic culture in Sure. In our nation, in our communities, and our parishes. Because just encouraging eucharistic devotion and piety Absolutely. Good things is not gonna work if there isn't a hub where that people come. Because that's where, not just they're getting fed on Sunday, but that, that's sort of our life is the parish. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. Where, you know, all our act like our friendships, activities, our culture, all make sense in the same way that I don't think that if you look at, uh, current testing nationally done of Catholic high school and college kids, um, their awareness of the doctrines of the faith is actually better than it was 40 years ago.
Speaker 0 00:22:25 And I think that the catechisms and the catechisms that were produced by it are from it have helped enormously. Here's what's lacking. There is no culture in which those doctrines make sense. That is to say, a young person today can, no, can pass a test to answer all the questions. And yet those doctrines are like the periodic table. They're factoids that float in their mind without any coherent context for them to exist. There's nothing organic about it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that, for example, we will find young Catholics today, high school or college kids, who simultaneously in their mind hold that, uh, same sex acts are intrinsically disordered, and gay marriage is probably a good thing. It's never entered their mind that those two things are in conflict because there's not an organic, like the organic, the analogy of faith is not there. Mm-hmm. So there's no organic place for the doctrines of the church, including eucharistic faith and piety to fit. And so it's just an, it's an activity that is part of my life, but I, they're unaware of how it fits into the hole. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, or how it actually should fall,
Speaker 2 00:23:22 Which is really fascinating. If we go back to the earlier part of the conversation where Right. That sense of like, if the Eucharist as the fundamental mystery of Christ's mm-hmm. <affirmative> work of salvation and Christ's person Right. As it enters into history, and that becomes the centering principle, then it's kind of, again, what we experience today is kind of a fragmentation. Yes. And so I think, think why one of the works that we wanna do, both in parishes and, and through other, you know, movements and I think whatever we can find, uh, and I think at times, right, the church probably has had always both, uh, parish and assis in life. And then at the same time, you know, orders and monasteries and this kind of, uh, this, this kind of mutual en enrichment. Uh, but, but, but with that idea that then we can create a certain sense of not only an intellectual center, but a spiritual center, really a home, right?
Speaker 2 00:24:14 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that, that we find in the church, in Jesus Christ. Uh, and then that becomes the center around which we can not only form right. Our lives, our, our work, our study has meaning cuz it fits within this, our thoughts about politics or our thoughts about, you know, different, uh, moral issues or thoughts about, you know, questions about who I am mm-hmm. <affirmative> Right. All begin to find meaning and purpose. And so I think that's just, uh, so well put, uh, you know, father, let's, let's take a, we're gonna take a quick break. Sure. And when we get back, I really wanna do kind of two uh, things. One, just given your role, right. As an academic dean at a major seminary, what are some of the things that you want to teach or that you certainly want, um, your priest to both learn and to go teach about kind of, uh, recovering that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that eucharistic culture you're talking about. And then also wanna, uh, look again at, uh, say maybe, uh, some things from Iran, Aus and Ignatius to see how is it that they in a very chaotic pagan yes. World, um,
Speaker 0 00:25:22 Not that unlike our
Speaker 2 00:25:22 Own exactly how they managed, what they taught, and how they lived that. So absolutely. We'll take a break and come right back. Thank
Speaker 0 00:25:29 You, father.
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Speaker 2 00:26:03 Welcome back to the Catholic Theology Show, and I'm delighted today to have Monsignor Michael Heinz, academic Dean of Mount St. Mary's Seminary in Emmetsburg, Maryland with us. So, thanks again for being on the show,
Speaker 0 00:26:17 And I, I'm delighted. Thanks for the invitation,
Speaker 2 00:26:18 And we'd love to, I'd love just to kind of ask kinda that big picture, given your role mm-hmm. <affirmative> academic dean at a major seminary. What are some of the key things that you wanna teach priests and that you want them to teach others about, uh, right. Recovering, uh, this centrality of really eucharistic life?
Speaker 0 00:26:38 Well, first of all, I would say the, I'm very blessed. I've been there seven years North the Mount, and I am very edified by the young men who come to the seminary today. Um, they, it's some men, it's, it means leaving behind a lucrative job. Uh, you know, a a a young woman with whom he had very good relationship and realize that God's calling to this, there's a lot more cost today to some men leaving, coming to the seminary than there was, say, 50 or a hundred years ago. Guys who went, I went right out of high school. So I was with, we call a lifer. Um, I never actually had to give up anything significant coming to the seminary. Whereas there are men today where lawyers, physicians who've, who've, who let go of that life, you know, they went from living in their own home, having their own car, their own life mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:27:20 <affirmative> to living in a dorm with a bunch of kids who were little younger than they <laugh>. Um, but what I find is a deep love, a deep appreciation of the prayer life. One of the things that I edifies me, has edified me about the Mount is there's a culture there that we, that takes the life of prayer very seriously. Oh, that's beautiful. Well, and again, I didn't create it. I walked into it like, wow, this is great. And it was built over last century, I'm sure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But there, there's never a moment when you're go to any chapel on campus where there aren't men in there praying mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And these are men who take their prayer and the culture of the Holy Hour is very strong there. When I was in seminary, you know, 40 years ago, 35 years ago, the language of Holy Hour just wasn't as prominent, you know, uh, now no one's bound to do a holy hour.
Speaker 0 00:28:00 No priest is bound to do a holy hour. But the, we, it's inculcated in the men there, the importance of life of prayer. So everything that I do in a classroom, I think is rooted in their relationship with the Lord. As a teacher. If I do anything well, it's when the man says to me like, you know, like, this is really, this class is helping my prayer life. And I'm like, that, I'm doing the right thing, but that tells me I'm the right track. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, what I want them to, to, to have is like that integrated vision that we spoke about earlier, organic analogy of the faith where, where all the pieces of the, of the faith are not disparate pieces or discreet elements. They are rather part of a hole that makes sense. And honestly, if we can communicate that hole in our preaching and catechesis, what happens is all of a sudden the things people are doing all the time now, Matt, new meaning to them, it's like, oh, this makes sense.
Speaker 0 00:28:44 And so that, that their preaching can deliver the fullness of that, that vision. So it's not one particular doctrine that needs to be reaffirmed. What I find is they're deeply faithful. I don't have to try to persuade any of them that Jesus is truly God or that Mary was perpetually a virgin. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, or the Christ is truly present in the sacrament. You know, that this is, this is this. That's not, that's a no-brainers to them. If anything, it's a question of learning how to, how do you helping them to, how do you deliver that to people who like weren't in seminary for eight years mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I find in teaching homoletics that sometimes it's like everything you said is true and not gonna be very helpful, cuz you need to be able to translate it into a language that people you who are hearing you can understand, which isn't, does not mean watering everything down, making it fluffy.
Speaker 0 00:29:27 It means like teaching people. So for example, if in a homily someone uses the word Cancun, that's actually a really important term in the tradition. Yes. My advice is not don't use it, it's if you do use it, explain it. Yes. So that when people leave church, they now have a new word in their lexicon that's part of the tradition. And they also understand what it means, rather than, it's like, yes, father talked about this thing today, but I have no idea what he was saying. So I think it's helping them to be good teachers and preachers, but, but to really,
Speaker 2 00:29:52 Do you wanna define, by the way, Cancun real quick? Yes.
Speaker 0 00:29:54 For our Yeah. Disorder. Just, uh, uh, a moral feebleness, uh, disordered, uh, our propensity to Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Our we moral weakness that, that all of us have, that's a result of original sin. Sorry. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:30:04 No, I thought you
Speaker 0 00:30:05 That's funny. That's funny example. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:30:07 Yeah. That's funny. And, um, but no, I love that idea that Yeah. Yeah. That's a great example though.
Speaker 0 00:30:11 I think preaching you, you don't have to, you have to dumb it down. You can actually use words of the tradition, but make sure you tell them what that means. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so in any case, I, I find, I find teaching them and is a joy. They're one, they're, they're earnest. They love the Lord, they love, they love Jesus, they love the
Speaker 2 00:30:25 Church. Well, how encouraging, that's Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:30:27 No, it's, it's beautiful. Really. It is. It is. The church, the future of the church is in, in good hands.
Speaker 2 00:30:31 Yeah. And I know I can, uh, speak as a professor here at Abeer University for over 20 years now, and, you know, wow. That's just my experience too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I love, uh, students come in with, if you say kinda like, Hey, we're gonna get to read Augustine today. They're excited mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they think, wow, I wanna learn more about Augustine. Because I think students today who are kind of intentional about wanting to learn more about their faith and deepen their faith, have a certain sense, uh, that the answers from their culture about who they are, about who God is about meaning in life are empty. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And so they don't want to Right. Tear down the tradition. They want to find their way into the tradition because, wait, way to put it, uh, the tradition, I think we realize, and maybe there was a time in the seventies and eighties and nineties when not as many people realized this is that the tradition is fragile.
Speaker 2 00:31:28 I mean, in a way God will save it. And in that sense, yes, of course it's not fragile, but passing it on from one generation to the next is, is something that requires work. We need to preserve and honor and respect the tradition, or it can evaporate mm-hmm. <affirmative> in a generation or two as, as we've seen happen in sometimes with the kind of deeply post Christianization or, or secularization de Christianization that has happened. That there's a beautiful line from Gustav Mahler who's a composer in the 20th century, but he says, tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of a fire. Hmm. And I love thinking of myself as a teacher. I am totally inadequate to pass on the mysteries of God and to pass on this incredible patrimony that we have. I'm still just dipping my toe in the water of the, of, of this great Christian tradition. Uh, but when I think about that idea, wait a second. Have I received the flame of learning? Yeah. Can I keep that flame of learning alive? Yeah. Can I pass on that flame to a few more candles? Yeah. And it's like a much easier, I don't have to to master the tradition, but if I can receive the tradition and pass it on, then we can help preserve that fire. And anyway, just wonderful to hear you describe that with our, that's very beautiful
Speaker 0 00:32:47 Young priests. I think, I think you're quite right. And, and like we're, I'm still a student of the tradition. I'm not a master of it, you know, and Yes. But if you, uh, if you actually are on fire with like, if, if it kindles in you a fire mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're gonna see that and they're gonna like, what is it that he's got mm-hmm. <affirmative>, she's got that I want. It's, it's that, that love for the
Speaker 2 00:33:03 Truth. Yeah. And these truths transform. Yes. That's the whole way is I want meaning. Right. It's not like I'm, I don't have to choose between truth and meaning. It's that actually meaning is found when we discover truths, uh, that actually transform us. So, purple
Speaker 0 00:33:17 Benedict. Yeah, please. I pointing out that the me the deepest meaning of logs is meaning. So who is Christ? He's the meaning made flesh, if you want, meaning go to Christ because he is the logs par
Speaker 2 00:33:27 Salons. Ah, that's beautiful. And by the way, anybody who wants to listen to, uh, an extra podcast on, uh, uh, Pope Jean Paul, sorry, on Pope Benedict, um, you can, uh, look at one of the earlier episodes, uh, that, uh, Dr. Roger Nut and I did on the Theological Legacy of Pope Benedict. Uh, but I wanted just to kind of shift gears now. Sure. We were talking about kind of today, let's go back to the second century mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. Actually really with St. Ignatius. Right. The first, not even the first, I mean, you know, he, he dies around 1 0 7, maybe one 10. So the first, just the beginning of the second century,
Speaker 0 00:33:59 You to think of just a couple decades after the last book that new testimony composed
Speaker 2 00:34:02 Yeah. Just a very close. Right. So John might've, we don't know exactly, but he might've died in the
Speaker 0 00:34:06 Eighties. Yeah. He could've died maybe even later. He could have been even closer. I mean, this is Yes. Very,
Speaker 2 00:34:11 Very close. He's understood. Have been a, a young man.
Speaker 0 00:34:13 Yes. Yes. And he lived
Speaker 2 00:34:14 Born and 33, and he, you know, lives, uh, a long time. So Ignatius though, in this, he writes seven letters mm-hmm. <affirmative> as he's being, uh, taken to eventually, um, be martyred in the coliseum. And he has a beautiful line where he even, uh, that often people know he, like, he desires to have his body ground into the bread of, and wheat of Christ by the teeth of the lions.
Speaker 0 00:34:40 Um, and he can use that language and speak that way. That has, you know, we, we can say, oh, it's eucharistic. Absolutely. Here's the irony. He's using it knowing full well that everyone who reads it couldn't understand it that way. So there's a deep eucharistic piety already in place. Yes. Rather than him having to say, what I mean by that folks is Yes, it's, he can use this. And again, here's the thing here, captors wouldn't understand what he is talking about if you were talk like that mm-hmm. <affirmative> Christians would, he knows
Speaker 2 00:35:04 That. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's also, by the way, I, I always have a few students who say like, well, do you think he is, does he want to die? And, and of course you always gotta remember like, he's, he's going to die. There's nothing you can do. There's no power. There's no earthly power that's gonna undo the Roman empires. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> judgment. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So he is kind of saying that I will accept joyfully, you know, I will conform myself to the will of God as expressed in the midst of this horrible situation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he's not like the martyrs never actually pursue death. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 0 00:35:35 Well, it that's exact and that's precisely an imitation of Christ.
Speaker 2 00:35:38 Yes. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:35:39 Like Christ knowing everything that was coming upon him, as John says, went out, Andre, like he knew. Yeah. Again, he knew mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was recently privileged to be in the Holy Land. And, uh, one of the things you discovered is that from the garden Yosemite. Mm. You can look across the Kidron valet to, uh, the Harris Palace, and you could, he could have seen them coming, like with torches and lambs. Wow. Cohort's a large number. He would've seen them coming, so he would've known. Yes. You know, and when he goes out to wake the disciples, they're 20 minutes away, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he comes, they're 10 minutes away. Like Yeah, yeah. All of a sudden he knows everything that's gonna happen to him. He could've run away. Mm. Yeah. Plenty of time to escape. Yeah. He chose not to, and, and Ignatius, any imitation of his master isn't going to run away.
Speaker 2 00:36:20 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> and beautifully, he still asks the father to take the cup away from him. So he says, father, if you are willing, take this cup away, divert this. Yes. But I'm not going to run away. I will accept the suffering. And so there's this beautiful line in one of his letters to, uh, s Therians mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, to Smia. Um, but he says this, this is Ignatius, they hold aloof. He's criticizing those who basically ultimately reject the real death and the real resurrection. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> of Jesus, because, well, for a variety of reasons, why do people reject the resurrection today? But he then he goes on a little far, they hold aloof from the Eucharist and from services of prayer because they refuse to admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which in his goodness the Father raised beautiful. Right. So just, I mean, cuz I think some people do wonder is Right, is the Eucharist just a symbol? Yep.
Speaker 0 00:37:19 Uh, I think if you read any of the fathers, it's very clear it can't be just a symbol. Um, in the words of Flannery O'Connor, you know, the 20th century American Catholic writer from Georgia, if it's just a symbol to hell with it. Yeah. You know, she's like, I I'm not gonna believe this. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Ignatius is writing there. There's a clearly, you know, the time that Ignatius is writing, actually the time of the fourth gospel is being written there. Culturally, the body was considered an impediment. Flesh is not a good thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that John in one line can link the word with flesh. The word became flesh or logos and sars linking them in the same sentence mm-hmm. Would've been incoherent to so many ancients of the, of Greek Hellenistic background because their platonism there would've been like, they don't go together. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:37:58 And there were a number of, of quasi Christian groups, probably in the New Testament times and beyond, who refused the reality of Jesus's bodily existence. So not only does Ignatius wanna make clearly numerous times in his letters, he says he truly was born to marry, truly suffered in a project that truly died, truly was raised. And now here he wants to connect that reality also to the Eucharist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the Eucharist. Jesus wasn't a phantom Yeah. Or a symbol. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm sorry, a contemporary Christology, people who say Jesus symbol of God, it wasn't a symbol. Yeah. And neither is the Eucharist a symbol. Wow. The Eucharist is Christ present to us under the appearances of bread and wine. Yeah. Doesn't look like flesh, doesn't look like blood. But the reality is, is is the
Speaker 2 00:38:37 Fact. Yes. And, and again, you know, that's, he's writing this around 1 0 7 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, John, the Apostle John would've written his gospel Well, whenever mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but let's just say so
Speaker 0 00:38:49 Late first century,
Speaker 2 00:38:50 Late first century, he is a spiritual father. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> perhaps, um, you know, of Polycarp. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Polycarp communicates the message of Jesus. And also John's teachings Right. About, so I was gonna say, if you want to kind of find out what John six says, well, you could read, there's a lot of different ways, I think just from the text itself. Yes. But one way, just a fun way of checking it, is can I say, well, what does Ignatius of Antioch teach about John six? And what you see is that when he says, right, unless you eat the flesh and drink my blood,
Speaker 0 00:39:23 You won't have
Speaker 2 00:39:23 Life with you. That Ignatius makes it clear that the word truly became flesh that's real in the incarnation. And then the word that became flesh continues to give himself to us in this Eucharistic meal, which is, and again, it's not only a meal, it's a sacrifice mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because it's, we, we participate, it's a sacrifice. Right. In the Old Testament, the sacrifices are those, they're only, you have to consume them in order to make them your own. And so this certain sense, it's not just a meal like you and I getting a meal, this is a sacrificial meal. Exactly.
Speaker 0 00:40:01 Yeah. I think that that contemporary question of like, well, is it a meal or is a sacrifice? Well, actually it is both, but it is only a meal because it is first a sacrifice because the type of meal it is, like, in other words, there's nothing they're implicit in the idea of sacrifice is meal because you're to consume what's offered. Yeah. There's nothing implicit in meal about the sacrifice is not implicit in the concept of meal in the way that meal is comp. So the governing, the governing idea is sacrifice. And so it is a meal, but it's a sacrificial meal. And I, when you look at, uh, Polycarp's martyrdom so's a letter of the church of Smyrna wrote after he was martyred. If you read it, you're like, wow, this is just like Jesus. There's a Herod, there's a betrayal, there's a garden, there's, he's dying. You know? And, and, and it's like, wow. They must have like, like tried to make this like the murder of Jesus. It's like, no, it wasn't contrived. It was like actually they understood martyred himm, like the lens through which they interpreted their experience is the dying and rising of Jesus. It wasn't, those were, those weren't worked up to make the story fit. That's actually how they, that this is how they see their existence would that we all viewed our experience every day. Whatever's going on in terms of that mystery, we'd understand it a
Speaker 2 00:41:07 Lot better. You know, and it's shocking too, when you put it that way because you realize that a lot of these teachers from whom we're reading right now were martyrs. Yes, exactly. And, and they died for their faith. Right. The apostles, um, you know, were all martyred for their faith. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, John was exiled. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, these polycarbon Ignatius. Right. I think it's the first 23 popes. Oh yeah. Were martyred. Well,
Speaker 0 00:41:29 So these people, well, all the first Saints, because Yeah. It wasn't until Martin of Tour that we have someone who wasn't a martyr
Speaker 2 00:41:33 Who exactly understood as the same. These, you know, these, it's not just that they died and told us these truths. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in part, Ignatius is dying for these truths. That the truth that that, that he found something in this message about Jesus. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that the one who created the universe somehow saved us. The one who created us, saved us through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, in whose name we could be baptized, uh, whose spirit we could receive, and then whose very flesh and blood we could eat and therefore be restored into Right. Loving Eucharistic Thanksgiving relationship with the Father as now in the spirit children of God. Right. This is right. I mean, they, they, they, they left behind much and encountered a very Right. A very hostile, dangerous, lethal culture in the, in early, you know, in, in the early centuries of
Speaker 0 00:42:33 Rome. And they understood their existence as a recapitulation of that mystery. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's why they mar, that's why they died as martyrs. They understood that like, yeah, if I, I have to receive this mystery, I'm gonna have to live this mystery. Yeah. And now mm-hmm. <affirmative>, even today, no one has to run out and turn themselves in, act in fact, in the Marty and Helicopters, a man named Quintus who turns himself in to be martyred mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then he, he later recant the faith because, and so there's a, you don't go looking for trouble mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but if it comes, you accept it. And this, this idea that I'm going to offer myself to God, I'm gonna be, and people today can do that. You don't have to run out and be killed. You know, parents can do that by death to self, little death to self every day, whether getting up at two in the morning to change a diaper mm-hmm. <affirmative> working that extra shift to pay for Yeah. Kids school mm-hmm. <affirmative> that there are all kinds of deaths that we can experience daily. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> maybe just biting our tongue. We were gonna say something snarky, but that's a small death that recapitulates the dying and rising, and Lord, cause it's an active charity.
Speaker 2 00:43:26 Right. And I think so many, I I
Speaker 0 00:43:27 See the Eucharist feeds that we can't do that without the Eucharist.
Speaker 2 00:43:29 That's exactly right. And I see also, and maybe this especially, I don't know if you know, in in your perspective, it might be a little different, but I see a lot of people that are kind of discerning vocations, wanting vocations, uh, and there's a lot of pain and often suffering and loss associated with that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> people might, you know, all they wanna do is get married, but, but they can't find suitable partner. Uh, and they have to offer that. Um, maybe they want to, they enter religious life or they try out religious life and a year later doesn't work out for 'em. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And, and, and just so many different ways are people that get married and then are, you know, dealing with, uh, miscarriages and child infertility. Uh, and I just think so many different people and this idea that it's in that very moment of that brokenness.
Speaker 2 00:44:17 Hmm. Right. Um, in that moment of that brokenness in which our heart, and I believe it's Psalm 51, which is this, um, you know, oh God have mercy on me, a sinner from that certain sense of a broken and contrite heart, oh Lord, you will not spur. And so the true sacrifice that we can offer in a way is through the very brokenness that we have, and we accept so much of what we want. Even if we have holy desires, most of those, a lot of those desires in their earthly aspects are not gonna be fulfilled mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but the broken heart that God will not, sperm is not only our own, it's really the very heart of Jesus. Mm. It's the heart of Jesus. Right. That is on the cross, pierced by the sword from which blood and water flow, which is really the realities of the Eucharist and the thing.
Speaker 2 00:45:08 So, so I just, I think it's something, especially as we talk about like priesthood or marriage or other things like that, is just to see like everybody in their baptismal vocation Exactly. Is already, and that wherever that is, and often, again, I I, you know, it's hard or, or I'm sure you, I don't wanna, uh, speak out of turn, but I'm sure you have priests who have a great desire to go serve Jesus, become ordained, and then perhaps have to deal with a lot of difficulties, maybe under, uh, a senior pastor with whom they don't agree, or, uh, bishop who restricts things or parishioners who just aren't quite interested. And, you know, and you have to kind of take whatever you thought your vocation was going to be and then conform it back to that death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All vocations in a way conform back to the mystery of baptism. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:45:55 And of a senior pastor, man, I respect deeply. We're talking about priests who struggle, you know, uh, guys who've take, stepped away from ministry, that kind of thing. And he said, you know, what these guys need to realize is that it's always about the death and resurrection. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. It's like, and here's a guy who's experienced it again and again in his life. Yeah. It's, and that's not just for priests, that's every baptized person. Yeah. Sometimes the Lord dashes our own plans and dreams, not because he doesn't love us Yeah. But because he wants us to love his dreams and plans, his, his desires for us. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and too often my own. Yeah. I could be in a parish where I didn't wanna be in this parish. I wanna be in that parish. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, here's what God called me to be. So holiness doesn't begin in a circumstance that I want to imagine it has to begin right now. And that will always involve that death to
Speaker 2 00:46:41 Self. Yeah. That's so beautiful. And, and there can be that way in which I think sometimes we can, as we right. Discover God's calling in our lives and we wanna say yes to God, we wanna do great things for God, uh, that it's only natural that we would start thinking about the great things we wanna do for God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> raise a perfect family, I don't know, you know, have a perfect parish, uh, make perfect holy hours, uh, whatever these things are. And there's a, and yet all of that is also at the same time, even if they're good, they can also be the projections of our own ego trying to like impose upon the world what we want and Right. I I, I love the line in the, uh, our father, which is just so strange and so powerful. It's that your name be holy. Right. Your kingdom come, your will be done. And in, in a subtle way, what we're actually doing is, that's a massive correction. Because largely what I want to do, even for God, is to build up my name for God, my kingdom, kingdom for God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and my will for God. But that deep sense in which No to say yes to God for today. Uh, and that's in a way our, our, our vocation. And yes, do beautiful things for God, but to recognize that the outcomes are totally outside our control. And, uh, it's such a beautiful, rich tradition of saying, uh, this deep abandonment to the divine will mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and I think it's all there in the Eucharist.
Speaker 0 00:48:03 I was gonna say, and all those things are only po. Like we can only say the Lord's prayer. And actually we can say it as baptized persons. We can only actually affect it if we're sharing in the Eucharist.
Speaker 2 00:48:12 Yeah. I love it. Even says, we dare to pray. Exactly. We can only dare to pray it because Christ not only commanded us to, but he's praying it in us.
Speaker 0 00:48:23 Exactly. All, all we're doing is sort of aligning ourselves with him in us praying that to the father, hoping that our abandonment to, to the father could, would, it could be as, as pure as Christ.
Speaker 2 00:48:34 Well, that's beautiful. Let's, um, as, as we close, uh, I just wanted to ask you kind of three quick questions. Sure that I try to ask a lot of our guests. And, uh, what's, what's a book you're reading?
Speaker 0 00:48:45 Um, right now I am reading a little book by Jean, who's a, uh, is deceased now, was a milk kit priest. Mm-hmm. A little book on Christian experience. It's basically a book on how to read the Bible. Oh. And, uh, great writer read book of a famous book, cor uh, liturgy disorder, uh, uh, well, of worship welling. Of
Speaker 2 00:49:02 Of worship. This is, uh, Jean
Speaker 0 00:49:04 Jean Corba. C O r B O n. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:49:07 Yeah. B i n right. Or
Speaker 0 00:49:08 B o n b o n. B o n
Speaker 2 00:49:09 B n. Is is, I, I I heard that he helped contribute to the fourth part of the catechism.
Speaker 0 00:49:14 He was principal author of the fourth part of the catechism. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:49:16 That's beautiful. And prayer.
Speaker 0 00:49:17 Yeah. Uh, Mel Kite Priest, he was originally the, the, the Para Blanc of Africa, the White Fathers of Africa, Uhhuh, and then became a member of the Mel Kite Catholic mm-hmm. Community in Beirut. He wrote the fourth part of the catechism in a basement because it was during the war between Israel and Lebanon that that was being written. So he is, you know, his bombs are flying overhead. He's writing the fourth part of the cast. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But he's a, he's a remarkable writer, not an easy writer, but, um, I've read the Wellspring many times, but I wanted to read this book on, on the Christian, I can't remember English title. Okay. It's like Christian experience in the Bible or something. It's a misleading title because really what it is, is how we should read the Bible, like how to read it for prayer. Beautiful. Not so much for exegesis necessarily your study, but just for prayer. So I'm reading that. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 2 00:49:56 Uh, well, that's great. That's great. And, um, what's up? Obviously, you know, I'm, I'm sure you have many as a priest, uh, but what's just one, uh, daily practice, uh, that you do to, uh, draw closer to God and find meaning every
Speaker 0 00:50:09 Morning? Uh, again, I, I mentioned them out. The culture, the Holy Hour is very big. And so I usually, I'm in chapel an hour before the, we have morning prayer mass. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I do, you know, Lexi say the office, some personal prayer with the Lord mental prayer that that's the, that's the mm-hmm. <affirmative> I prayer every morning is, you know, like, I want want to, I will to give this hour to you and I will live with you in recollection and c communi with you the rest of the day. That's because it's, if I don't do that, the day is just, yeah. I use image, have dislocated. I think it's apart from Christ outside of Christ, it's in the vicinity of Christ isn't good enough. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, it's gonna be in Christ. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:50:43 I had this image of, uh, somebody talked, said that idea, like, and, and you, you don't want to, this isn't, it's not magically or like, um, true. Okay. But, but, but this idea that almost like, you know, if, if, if we're sick with like, you know, we, we sometimes need like radiation therapy to purify us in different ways. So sometimes, like just being in the presence of the bus is sacrament. Again, it's not, you don't want to, is kind of that kind of like, it's that kind of like, it's that therapy where we learn to kind of purify what is not in align with God, but then it's ultimately like a, like a grow lamp or something mm-hmm. <affirmative> where you're also then growing and that that sense of being in somebody's presence is, you know, yeah. We can pray to God anywhere, but we also, sometimes we can only pray to God anywhere cuz we pray to God somewhere. And I do think that sense of trying to be in the presence of Jesus is, is something that can really be, um, you know, fruitful.
Speaker 0 00:51:33 Absolutely. Bishop de Noia, Archbishop de Noia once said, you know, someone said, what's thence between playing Uhhuh in front of a tabernacle, praying in front of exposed sacrament? He said, well, it's not that Jesus is more present to me mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I'm more present to him. Yeah. And, and the other thing to note about that is that holy, our Eucharist federation is like most of life, it's not necessarily exciting. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and he's just there mm-hmm. <affirmative> and all he's asking for us to do Yeah. Is
Speaker 2 00:51:58 Just be there. Yeah. How, well, how well put Father, uh, uh, father, there's one last question. What's, uh, what's one belief, uh, that you held about God, uh, that you kind of learned at some point was false and in a way, how did that false belief about God, you know, kind of lead you astray in a way? And what was the truth
Speaker 0 00:52:16 You discover? I think when I discovered when I was younger, um, especially the idea that I had to prove my worth to God mm-hmm. By my moral ups, by being morally upstanding or whatever that mm-hmm. <affirmative> that in fact I had to earn God's love mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and mercy and that sort of pianism within me that if I just use my freedom Right, everything would be good. Yeah. Um, and the recognition that no, like actually God's loving me, even in my sins, doesn't let the sins, but you're loving me even in the sins. Yeah. And that you don't earn it. It's a pure gift and we don't deserve, no one deserves it. So, you know, uh, I joke with, with seminarians all the time, you know, the, the ordination ceremony, the right, it's the bishop s have you found him to be worthy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and the true answer is absolutely not. But you're gonna ordain him anyway because yes, no one's worthy mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> of, of any of the graces gifts of God, but God lavishes upon us anyway.
Speaker 2 00:53:03 Yeah. Uh, well, how, how, how beautiful. Thank you, uh, for sharing that and, uh, thanks so much for being on our show today and it's an honor. And, uh, so just for, uh, listeners, uh, this is Monsignor, um, Michael Heinz, who's with us Academic Dean at the, uh, Mount St. Mary's Seminary in Emmetsburg, Maryland. And, uh, this is one of our episodes that's focusing on, uh, a series on the Eucharist and trying to recover and deepen right. Our understanding devotion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> understanding of devotion to the Eucharist and to try to kind of live out and contribute to, uh, this eucharistic revival, uh, that we've been called to do by, uh, our spiritual fathers. So, great. Thank you so much, father. You're welcome. Thank
Speaker 3 00:53:46 You. Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
