Speaker 0 00:00:00 Catholic healthcare is the healing ministry of Christ that he instituted when he was walking in the Holy Land and curing the sick, delivering those that were demo afflicted and liberating people from the lives and the traumas that they had experienced. And so that's the mission of Catholic Healthcare.
Speaker 2 00:00:24 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, presented by Avi Maria University. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Dnet, and today I'm joined by Lewis Brown, Jr. Who's executive director of the Christ Medicus Foundation. Very pleased to have you on the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:39 Thanks for having me. Great to be here with
Speaker 2 00:00:42 You. Well, so glad you're here. Thanks. Um, I wanted to begin, uh, with just a big question about religious liberty. Uh, and, you know, maybe we could just put it provocatively. Sure. Right. Why is there religious liberty? Sure. Why should religions have any more liberty than just every other person
Speaker 0 00:01:02 Right.
Speaker 2 00:01:02 In a country?
Speaker 0 00:01:03 Right. Uh, no, it's an interesting question. Religious, there's religious liberty because religious liberty, uh, protects the freedom to the highest good, which is love. And it protects that freedom. Um, I think, uh, more profoundly than perhaps any other right that we have. It protects the highest good, which is love. It helps us, helps us to understand human dignity. It helps us to, uh, it gives us the freedom to experience the reality of human dignity in the sanctity of life for every person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think that, uh, religious liberty, they call it the first liberty and the Constitution, the first Amendment that's, that's articulating the First Amendment, and I think it is, along with the right to life and right of conscience, our most important foundational bedrock, uh, civil rights and our human rights.
Speaker 2 00:01:48 Wow. That's, that's so well put. It's really, maybe, you know, the, the freedom to love mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and to learn about a higher source of love. Right? That's right. In part, uh, it, it seems in a way, I, I think there's a crisis of maybe individualism mm-hmm. <affirmative> where we tend to think that individuals exist in a society, and they have the right to be individuals. Right. And the society has the right to control the individuals. But I think today, we often have a suspicion that individuals have kind of a natural Right. To form communities, the community, maybe of the family mm-hmm. <affirmative> or also the community of churches. So the community of people coming together as a family or as a church is in many ways, really prior to the state.
Speaker 0 00:02:46 Oh. Uh, 100%. I, Yeah, 100%. Um, it's a, it's a very challenging, uh, it's a very challenging issue because on across our cultural spectrum, um, you have, uh, this recognition of, of rights. Um, but I think both, uh, both on, on various polls that we're going through, um, you have, uh, folks saying that, uh, I have absolute autonomy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and some are saying, Well, I have absolute autonomy regardless of, of what direction I'm going into. Whether it's, uh, towards order towards love, towards human flourishing or towards disorder and, uh, human destruction, that I can exercise my autonomy however I want, whether it's over my body or over my money. Okay. And so I think that, um, uh, those are very misguided ways of understanding things, uh, in terms of this absolute autonomy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, uh, that leads to thoughts that have almost exclusively to do with power. So, no, I mean, I think your, your earlier question, your earlier kind of supposition, which is that on some level, uh, the community exists, not on some level, but absolutely. The community exists before the government and before the community, uh, exists. God. And so, yeah. Uh, there's a, there's a proper ordering. The state has legitimate authority, uh, but there are things that are up over and above the state, such as God and, and the community.
Speaker 2 00:04:21 Wow. Now you're gonna be, uh, speaking to Avi Maria University, faculty, staff, and students.
Speaker 0 00:04:26 Hopefully, if I get there in like two and a half hours,
Speaker 2 00:04:28 <laugh> That's right. Later this afternoon. Um, what are some kind of big themes, uh, that you'd like to, you want to communicate today?
Speaker 0 00:04:37 Sure. Um, I think for me, I think the biggest theme that I'm trying to communicate is that it really three things. The first is the priority for, for all people, but particularly young people, to encounter the living God, to encounter love himself in an ongoing daily way. Yeah. Um, and to, and to steep for, for folks at Aary University, for parents, for everybody, for every American, every child, every man, woman and child, to encounter Christ, to encounter love. That is the whole point of life that you can, and I say this, hopefully I'll say this a little later today, you can save the world a hundred times over. Um, but if one does not come to know and persevere, uh, in Christ on a certain level, particularly for those of us who've been given the gift of being aware in Christ, if we fail to persevere in Christ, we can say the world a hundred times over, uh, but our lives will be of failure. So to steep our identity in being sons and daughters of God. Uh, I talk to a group of, uh, law students and college interns a couple months ago, and they all had this concern, or at least one of them had this concern that there's this lie in the culture, that you have to marry your dignity, yet that you have to marry your dignity.
Speaker 2 00:05:56 Okay.
Speaker 0 00:05:57 And, um, and so that therefore my dignity is, uh, what I do, my dignity is how much value I produce and, uh, within the culture, within the economy, et cetera. And that's a lie. That's an objectification of the person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and so I want, I want everyone that I talk to, to know that they're loved and that they can rest. And the safety and security, Dr. Bob Sheetz talks about this and the safety and security of just being a son and daughter of God. Um, and so, so that, that that healing encounter with Christ, that healing touch of Christ, that helps us to know who we are, and then it helps us to know what we do, what we're we're called to do, which is through our vocation, is to love other people. Whatever, whatever role that takes, whether it's being an engineer or being a priest, or being a religious sister, or being a doctor, or being a stay-at-home mom, or a stay-at-home dad, whatever that may be, to, to encounter Christ, to be healed and to go out and heal others. There's a massive attack on religious freedom. And ultimately that attack is in our freedom to go out and loving hill others. Uh, and then we have to fight against that. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:07:00 <affirmative>, if we discover our dignity as children of God. Right. Loved by the creator of the universe. Right. Exactly. Right. So we're not alone. Uh, it's really natural then Right. To go out and love our neighbor. Right, Right. In some ways, this is the, the, the key Right. Commandments are to love God and love our neighbors ourself. Right. And so, in a way, religious liberty, as I hear you describing it, I never quite thought about it like this. It's really our ability then to go out and love one another.
Speaker 0 00:07:29 Right? That's right. And it's high it's form
Speaker 2 00:07:31 In its, and to love one another in not only as individuals, but as members of a community. That's right. And, and to a certain extent do it in just on our authentic name, which is That's right. If we are doing that, because we've discovered Right. A power greater than ourselves. Right. If we've discovered the creator of the universe, if we've discovered perhaps that the creator of the universe loves us and the son, then it's also appropriate that we would do it, not in our own name, cuz it's not really our own strength. Right. It's not our own love. Right. So it's appropriate that we would do it in God's name. Right.
Speaker 0 00:08:06 Yeah. And that it's not a private exercise, you know, that, that it's, uh, it's, it's very much a public, it's a public exercise, you know, um, um, there's a private dimension to it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but that our, our faith, um, is intended to, there's a, there's a, it's right. And it's just for us to proclaim Christ, uh, to exercise our faith in the public square mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and to get away from this kind of Protestant notion that I think became popular, though I was not here, but in the middle of the 20th century, um, particularly in the Northeast, that your faith is this private affair that you put in the back. You know, that in the back door, in the back room, you don't discuss, you're almost ashamed of it. Um, um, but it's, it's the path. Our faith is the path, uh, to a flourishing civil society. Uh, but it's more than that. It's also the whole reason why we're here. And Yeah. I'll stop there.
Speaker 2 00:09:02 Okay. No, I think that's, it's, it's very, and in some ways I do think actually you can even trace that back to some, uh, thinkers earlier, uh, in political kind of early modern political theory who would make a distinction between religious conduct, which is totally under the control of the state mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then religious belief, which is private and
Speaker 0 00:09:23 Internal. Sure, sure. And
Speaker 2 00:09:24 You know, that's, and in some ways, I think that's ironically what we still have today, Right. No longer in the name of established religions. Right. But the idea that, and I don't know if your experience, cuz you've worked in this area, but where the government often feels sometimes as though it's, it's it's duty to control conduct, um, and in, in the exercise by religious people, Right?
Speaker 0 00:09:47 Yeah. And, and a certain level, it divides, it divides the person. So you see this very powerfully, uh, if a, if a person's a true believer and you say that, um, we're gonna cut off your belief from your activity, then, then how can you survive on a certain level? How can you authentically survive as the person you're called to be?
Speaker 2 00:10:06 Yes. Yeah. So that's very well put, very well put. Um, so you said that was kind of the first thing is that we're loved by God. The second thing is that we have a duty, therefore to love others. Was there
Speaker 0 00:10:17 More? Yeah. And I, and I think that, that, that love, um, is healing. We, you know, I, we talk about a lot, a lot about this at Christ Medicus, the Catholic healthcare, which is in the aggregate, the larger, largest, uh, deliver of healthcare in the United States. It provides around somewhere between 15 and 17, give or take couple percent of all American healthcare deliveries from a Catholic healthcare institution. Wow. And Catholic healthcare in the United States globally was founded by Jesus Christ. Catholic healthcare is the healing ministry of Christ. So he instituted when he was walking in the holy land and curing the sick, delivering those that were demonically, afflicted, um, and liberating people from the lives and the traumas that they had experienced. Hmm. And so that's, that's the mission of Catholic healthcare. That's vitally important right now in America and other parts of the world.
Speaker 0 00:11:25 Our mandate, our baptismal commission to make disciples of all nations, to be instruments of God's love and healing for others is being attacked. Uh, most of popular culture, popular culture doesn't necessarily reflect that, what the majority opinion, but the drivers of popular culture, um, I think largely wanted to eradicate the gospel and Catholic evangelization from society altogether. Which means we don't want Catholics faithfully practicing in medicine. We don't want Catholics faithfully practicing, uh, mental health. We don't want Catholics, uh, in the field of bioethics and in scientific research. We don't want you now if you're gonna make an accommodation with the world, and, uh, and you're going to leave your faith behind if you're functionally going to, uh, you know, uh, to reject Christ for the world. And we want you, and if you wanna be a Catholic and name only, that's fine. Uh, but otherwise, if you're gonna bring your faith into, uh, your public conduct that has public, uh, repercussions, we don't want you here.
Speaker 0 00:12:30 That's what's happening right now. Um, and that's not only bad for, um, for us as Catholics, cuz that it not only violates our rights, but it means that the children of God, that our Lord wants to reach through us because of these legal, legal obstacles may not be reached. And that's very serious, the ultimate mission of the Christian, again, to get home to God and to bring everyone with you as a friend of mine once said, Get home to God and bring everyone with you. You see this powerfully in a great film that I talk about a lot of the movie Harriet. Uh, it's a very Christian film, and it's about the life of Harriet Tubman. It's based on a book. And there was a great NPR interview that the, uh, that one of the makers of the film did. And, um, Harriet Tubman gets out of, She was in, you know, she was enslaved in, in, in Maryland.
Speaker 0 00:13:23 And, and they showed in the film, she praised to the Lord, essentially and the Lord. And she said this, The Lord directed me how to get out. And so somehow miraculously though she did not know where she was, she had no map. She literally walks into Pennsylvania, walks into freedom. But instead of staying in Pennsylvania, she goes back in, she goes back into the sl, uh, you know, the slave states, and she rescues her brothers and sisters. And there's a very powerful scene at the end of the film. She's the only woman to have. I believe the, the film said this, Well, I don't know if it's actually true, but let's trust that she's the only woman to have led some type of combat regimen into battle still. And she leads this, That's amazing. Formation of soldiers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, into some, some area where there, there they know that there is slaves that are running for their freedom.
Speaker 0 00:14:15 And you see the union soldiers arrive, you see their, you know, their guns out, and you see the slaves running. And so this is exactly what we are called as Catholics to do instead of, instead of staying in our freedom, instead of staying in our freedom, uh, and just being safe and secure, uh, we're called to go back out to rescue our brothers and sisters to attack the gates of hell and to rescue our brothers and sisters out. And so when we see the loss of our legal right to religious freedom, um, it is really a loss of our legal ability to evangelize our legal ability to love and to heal other people, to be God's instruments. And if we fail to do that, souls will be lost. Nothing's more important. Those are the two most important things. Get home to God, bring others with you. That's it.
Speaker 2 00:15:07 Well, that's quite a moving, that's a moving story, uh, of Harriet Tubman. And I think it's a great example of how, um, Christians in following their, recognizing their love, how God has loved them, and how then they can love others Right. May at times be, be socially disruptive, <laugh>. Right. Right. You know, and
Speaker 0 00:15:28 Oh, very much
Speaker 2 00:15:29 So. And yet really accomplish something, you know, really offer kind of the healing hand of love and hope.
Speaker 0 00:15:36 Right. That's
Speaker 2 00:15:37 Right. To one another. You know, And, and it certainly seems that, you know, there, there anyway, there think that's such a, that's just a
Speaker 0 00:15:45 Powerful, it is powerful to me because I think that okay, you know, I've been rescued by God. Right. You know, um, from myself and from the world and all of those things. Right. And it is in the, and the spirit of the age in our country, in, in much of the West is so nasty and ugly. The fears about being canceled for being a Christian, the fears about standing up for life or religious freedom, or the biological scientific reality of the in person, they're massive. And so it's just easier. Well, I'm just gonna stay in my freedom. I've escaped. I'm in the north. This is har time. I'm, I'm, I'm escaped. I'm in the north. I'm free Those folks back there that, that are enslaved that are in bondage. I wish I could help them out, but I just don't want to risk it. But the call of the Christian to go back into these uncomfortable, challenging, and dangerous places, that's what Christ did.
Speaker 0 00:16:38 That's what the apostle did. That's a vocation of every single Christian. And it's the most important work. And so that's, that's what we're trying to, And the other thing too is we're talking about religious freedom in this way, because it's not, it's not about tribe. That that's a really massive challenge for Catholics in the United States, for Christian United States. You know, our faith is attacked, our beliefs about human sex, the, the reality of human sexuality and the unborn and the sanctity of life. It's constantly being attacked in the media and the culture all the time, all day, every day. And so, and we were talking about this with the students at lunch earlier. The, the temptation is to, is to attack back. You know, um, you know, I'm just a Christian, right? I'm just a Christian, I'm just a Catholic. But you hear, you hear this thought, well, let, like, let's, you know on Twitter, like there's this idea of like, let's own this political camp, or I'm gonna own these guys or whatever.
Speaker 0 00:17:37 Oh, you got own, You know, that's not, that's not how Christians speak or act. We don't, we're not, it's not a tribe, you know? Yes. We'll defend the truth. Um, but we're not here to just defend simply our own camp or our own tribe, because the reality is, on a certain level, everyone's part of our tribe. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, everyone's part of our community. Literally every man, woman, child's part of our camp. And so that's a very different way of looking at things. Um, but it's very challenging, particularly when there's so much anger. And a lot of the anger is just, a lot of the anger we have as Catholics today about what's going on in the world is very just, But we, we should be angry at the, at the evil, not the, uh, not the person.
Speaker 2 00:18:23 Well, thank you.
Speaker 3 00:18:31 You're listening to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Avey Maria University. If you'd like to support our mission, we invite you to prayerfully consider joining our enunciation circle, a monthly giving program aimed at supporting our staff, faculty, and Catholic faith formation. You can visit
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Speaker 2 00:18:58 I appreciate hearing so many of your insights about religious liberty and, uh, the importance of the Catholic healthcare system, not only as really probably one of the largest healthcare provider right. Networks, you know, across the globe. Right.
Speaker 0 00:19:13 Right. That's
Speaker 2 00:19:14 Right. But also just part of the essential mission of being, being a Christian mm-hmm. <affirmative> is includes Right. The ability to share that with others. Um, you know, tell us a little bit about yourself. I mean, how did you get interested in, you know, all these, you know, the, the legal battles, the health stuff, you know, your own faith.
Speaker 0 00:19:34 Sure. Um, thank God, because of a, a great mother and great family had an awareness of the beauty and awesomeness of God. And what little I've understood about, particularly when you're teaching children, they see God as initially the fake journey. He's big, He's awesome, you know? Yeah. And so I had that sense of it, and in some sense of this, of a supernatural presence. My father passed away in a, uh, a car crash, car accident, however you wanna phrase it, Um, when I was very young. And so that gave me a, an awareness, more potent awareness of God's providential care for me, because my father's not there. You see this with, uh, you know, serious sin that I am not comparing myself to John Paul too. But you see this John Paul too. He loses, you know, famously now, uh, you know, his mother, his father, his brother, and not that long of a period of time, but who comes in, uh, in a deep way to father him, to mother him the blessed mother, and obviously God the father.
Speaker 0 00:20:41 And so from this cross that he has, um, he experiences over time painfully this resurrection from this desert. He experiences a glory and joy. Uh, I'm a big fan. I talk probably way too much. And he's a bit of a, he's a close acquaintance. At least I could say. Dr. Schutz and his work talks a lot about the beauty of how God turns. You know, and this is me now talking, a friend of mine said this to me. The Roman Empire is this place of great, uh, persecution for the church. And the Lord transforms this into this place of, uh, the Roman Empire into the mechanism for delivery of the gospel of, uh, the cross is meant to crucify, but it, uh, it, it resurrects, you know? So, um, that's what I experienced in my life with the loss, my father over time, that's just providential care, the sense that God's there a, a fairly strong gift of faith of okay, God's real, never really doubting and, you know, some, you know, wondering, but never really doubting What
Speaker 2 00:21:43 A blessing. Yeah. That's amazing that you were able to receive, uh, such a really, you know, horrible loss Yeah. As a young child, as a, as a blessing and as a over time.
Speaker 0 00:21:54 Yeah. Yeah. Over time. And, um, and I had a mother who, uh, is amazing, and she was fierce about the faith and kind of forced fed it to us and <laugh>, you know, whatever. And that was great. To a point, my faith became my own in high school, college, and law school, very much a, uh, living a party life, a scoundrel, a pagan, not in a state of grace for most of my teens and most of my twenties, uh, or at least my very early twenties. And through doing it my way, literally brought me to my knees of, of total desperation, because that wasn't working over and over again. Mm. Uh, not working and recognizing time and time again. The one thing that's constant is God, the one thing I can trust is God. The one thing I really want is God. And I cannot, you know, in experiencing the emptiness of, of pursuing prideful ambition, pursuing power, pursuing influence, pursuing personal gain, um, the temptation to wanna make oneself one's own God or a God to others. Right. And, and seeing how empty, and there's no joy there.
Speaker 2 00:23:07 I heard someone describe it one time that God sometimes reveals himself to us through the gift of desperation. Right.
Speaker 0 00:23:15 Oh,
Speaker 2 00:23:15 Gd, the gift of desperation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, was there anything in particular during that time, or particular people or
Speaker 0 00:23:23 Oh, no. Or
Speaker 2 00:23:24 A book that
Speaker 0 00:23:24 Somehow No. So many things, um, and being respectful of our time here, but yes, I think the loss of a relationship that was not virtuous Okay. Of a dating relationship when I was in law school and I had made this relationship and maybe, you know, I had made the relationship and some things connected with it, false idols. So the false breaks. And I realized, okay, I have one, there's one God. Um, as I got older, I recognized I hadn't dealt with the loss of my father fully. I, you know, this, this, you know, I just hadn't really dealt with it just, it was kind of the thing, you know, Oh, well, this is, this is part of my story. It's no big deal. I'm fine. And there's a, there's a deep pain that can happen when a father or a mother is, is either physically not present because of death, or they left, or if they're not even emotionally present.
Speaker 0 00:24:18 We see this a lot with a lot of baby boomers, um, sons get back, or, you know, these sons get back for, they get married, these World War II guys who did a lot of good in Europe, but also saw a lot of horrible stuff participating in a lot of tough stuff. And they were emotionally absent to their kids. And, uh, and that's, that's really tough stuff. And God came in starting about 10, 12 years ago and said, You know what? No, no, no, no, no, no. I really am your father. I'm really am the man behind you. You have everything from me. Um, I am giving you this divine inheritance. It's divine royalty. And you can be, you can be safe, you can be secure, you can be at peace. Uh, in my heart, in my arms. This is all you have to be. You can rest here. Um, interior Freedom by Feather Jock Philippe was a huge part of that. Wow. Um, uh, uh, a book by John Eldridge while at Heart. You know, it's, it's it's pretty popular. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:25:18 Those are great books.
Speaker 0 00:25:19 Uh, really remarkable unbound, i, I read some years later by Neil Lasano, um, and a book that we actually took my team with at Christ Medicus through. And we're taking the whole Christ Medicus community through, uh, we have a, a Catholic health community where people are sharing their medical costs and we're also providing them with Catholic health coaching, spiritual direction, and a spiritual health program, largely based on be healed. But the work that Dr. Jus is doing, the John Paul two Healing Center, be Healed, is a truly transformative book, uh, about just in crowning the father, um, in one's own story and being liberated to be on mission, not to go inward, but to go further outward, to be that instrument of, of the gospel for other people. So those have all had, um, uh, a massive impact on me. And in terms of my thinking, I think Cardinal Sra the last couple years have ha has had a big impact. Maybe Cardinal Mueller as well, their writings and all of that. So, um, but it's, it's because, you know, the Lord is rescued me for my stupidity. <laugh> I deserve death, but he gives me a chance at life. So, Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:26:22 Yes. Well, that's, that's pretty amazing. So tell me a little bit about, I mean, you, you, you hinted a little bit at the, some of the work that you're doing with the Christ Medicus. Right. But just tell us a little bit about that. What is, what, what, what does the title mean? What some of the work that you're doing? Sure. You talked about trying to share costs, I mean, just all these different things. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:26:41 So, right. So, um, Christ is a divine physician, right? So that's where we essentially get our name Christ, Christ Medicus. He's the divine physician for all people, all times, all seasons. I love talking about that. I could talk about this all day, all night, cuz this is great. And, um, and so our mission is to share the love of, of God in healthcare. And we do that in three ways. The first way is we defend our religious liberty and medical conscience, um, through education, through some advocacy at the federal level and at the state level, uh, across the country. The second thing we do is we advise, uh, Catholic pro-life medical centers, uh, to provide that provide care to, particularly at risk pregnant women and their unborn children. The third thing is this Catholic health community that we're, uh, building called kiro. We have families in 40 states that are part of this Catholic healthcare community.
Speaker 0 00:27:34 They share their health costs, and then we are providing them programs to ha help them grow in their whole health, uh, and wellness. Um, so that they may live life fully alive in Christ. So, yes, we're paying, we're gonna pay, we're gonna help you. And we partner with a, a protestant group to this. We help folks pay for their medical cost. Um, but then we've created programs through our remarkable team, um, to help our members live in the truth of who God has created them to be. Um, uh, so many of the physical health challenges are related to behavioral health. Some trauma, some lies, some challenge, some sin, whatever. And so having a Catholic health coach can help get rid of those lies that might be impeding somebody from, from living a more healthy lifestyle and their diet and, and their, uh, and their exercise.
Speaker 0 00:28:28 A spiritual director obviously helps you live into the truth of what's Christ is speaking to you. Uh, and the spiritual help program that, that we're doing, again, building off of the work of, uh, of Dr. Schutz and be healed is, is helping people to go in, into, uh, and understand where Christ was in the challenges of their lives. And then to become who they are as Jock Fe talks about, to become who they are and their vocations and from mothers and fathers and spouses, um, and to live in the freedom, uh, that God has created some be them to live in as sons and daughters as mothers and fathers and whatever their vocations are. So, um, I was, I had, I was at the Nap Institute a couple weeks ago and I told, uh, a gentleman there, uh, we were having a, a bit of an impromptu meeting.
Speaker 0 00:29:16 I said, If you join our ministry and you participate, and the programs that, that were providing our membership, not just the sharing the medical costs, but um, living a life fully alive in Christ through these programs, the health coaching, the direction, um, the spiritual health program, we, because of God's grace and love and mercy, I believe your life would be transformed. I really believe that. Yeah. You know, I'm not just like, I really believe that. And we got a wonderful, if I could say one last thing if, I don't know if I have time, but we got an amazing letter from a deacon, um, and the diocese of Anchorage, Alaska, about how direction transformed his vocation as a deacon. He was really struggling with whether to move forward and, um, receiving direction remotely, um, from his spiritual director, Michael Vacca, uh, who's an amazing, who's a lawyer, a Maria Lara, and a bioethicist, and just an, has an amazing prophetic gift, um, transformed his vocation. And we're seeing how a lot of families, uh, are, are, um, are health coach, be Ray Rebecca now Wilson. She's amazing as working with a lot of, uh, some families that are in our ministry and just helping them live in the truth of God's love. And that just has, that has so many dimensions.
Speaker 2 00:30:38 You know, it's interesting that you're describing that because I mean, I think a lot of hospital work today mm-hmm. <affirmative> is realizing that, you know, it's great to fix the car when the car gets in an AC Right.
Speaker 0 00:30:51 Gets it's
Speaker 2 00:30:52 Vital, you know, to, to fix it. Yeah. But it's even better to keep the car, like preventative maintenance, <affirmative>, uh, there's so much more emphasis on wellness, emphasis on Right. Everything's like blue zones eating. Right. There's, even in the secular community, you see much more emphasis on this. And so to be able to take that all the way, not only in terms of eating and in terms of exercising, but in terms of maybe dealing with unhealthy habits.
Speaker 0 00:31:18 No,
Speaker 2 00:31:18 That's right. I need help. I know that I should exercise, but maybe I'm struggling to do it. I know that I should quit this addiction, but I'm struggling to do it. Merely having a doctor tell you that's unhealthy. It's like, No, you need to get support.
Speaker 0 00:31:34 That's right. And
Speaker 2 00:31:35 You're providing that.
Speaker 0 00:31:36 And it's a community, it's a, one of the biggest determinants of health Yeah. Is community. And, and, and I, I heard a story of a person who went to Lords, I'm blessed to be a Niam Malta. I haven't gone to Lords yet. Oh, okay. And, and this person's healing. It was, and it was actually probably the, a person telling the story that they had heard. So to be clear, but it was because they were simply accompanied. There's such power in that. And particularly after three years of being stripped, of, of being with God in community, in physical community, you know, being stripped of family, being stripped of friends in terms of just the ability to get together. People need community. And so, and perfectly, um, God is using us to do that, and I couldn't be more excited about the work
Speaker 2 00:32:26 We're, And so it would seem also that what you're doing, because it has some of these online, I mean, there's such a crisis of mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> healthcare in the US mm-hmm. <affirmative> where healthcare in the US is so concentrated Right. In, in, in major cities. Right. Um, That's right. But in many rural areas and in just many states, even there's not a lot of, often healthcare, the whole rural, rural health initiatives are so important. Right. And it seems like your work Right. Is also addressing, Right. Is that, am I correct? Right.
Speaker 0 00:32:56 That's right. Because, because we can do it virtually now. There's no substitute for in person. Yeah. There's no substitute for that. But it pains me in my heart, deaths in my heart, um, the power of a good Catholic psychologist, um, you know, <laugh>, I, I venture to say most of the young folks I know, which is people under the age of 60 <laugh> <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:33:19 Yes. Yeah. Count
Speaker 0 00:33:20 Me in, um Right. Um, are, are going to counseling and it's okay. Like yeah, things life isn't perfect and we go through stuff and we need help. But the power of a great Catholic psychologist, but from what I can tell, for most people, um, they cannot afford to have a solid Catholic psychologist. So my hope and dream is one day that we could provide that. But for now, um, we're providing that virtual community and the re and praying for people and sometimes fasting for them, and that that that awareness and that experience that I am loved, that someone else cares about me, um, that that's a small seed, uh, that can transform the person. And so that's what we're working on doing. Not perfectly. Yeah. But I'm excited about it and we're helping people and that's beautiful.
Speaker 2 00:34:11 That's a, that's an inspiring, uh, it's really inspiring initiative and it's a wonderful to hear about it and, and that I, you know Right. With respect to the cost, health costs. Yes. Then also dealing with body Yeah. Kind of our psyche. Right. And our spirit. Right. Because we're ultimately one. Right. Exactly. Um, I think it was Victor Frankel, um, who, uh, wrote Man Search for Meaning. Right. But he says, you know, uh, quoting Nche actually, but a man who has a why can endure anyhow, but if we don't have a why we can't endure anyhow. Right. I that's, that's, that's the downside. And that he would sometimes say that sometimes what people were struggling with when they would come to him as a psychologist was not properly like a mental health issue. What they were dealing with was an existential. Sure. And, and he described that.
Speaker 2 00:34:56 He said it was prevalent in the US mm-hmm. <affirmative> even more prevalent than he saw in Europe after the war. He called it an existential vacuum. Wow. And, and, and a loss of meaning. Then it's hard to organize your psyche and it's hard to organize your body. So your psyche and your body fall into unhealthy habits, behavioral problems. Right. And, you know, and you know, all those different things. And it's not that those things can't be dealt with by doctors, but sometimes they also need to be dealt with by maybe life coaches, spiritual coaches. Right. Where you begin to find a meaning and purpose. Right. Right. So to have one program Yes. It would somehow integrate all of these, these different things. And ironically, it reminds me that it almost sounds like what the Catholic hospitals used to be. Right, Right. When they were founded. Right. Where you'd have the sister, religious sisters there, the priest, you'd have the chapel. Yes. Um, and the, you know, you'd, you'd get communion and confession. Right. You know, and if you need it via, uh, blast rights, but, you know, it's
Speaker 0 00:35:57 Like, No. Well that's, that's it. That's the encounter with Christ. And I think that's part of our dream. And we have this virtual community mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is outstanding. Um, but we are working with existing, uh, Christ-centered Catholic entities that are increasingly providing that integrated encounter with Christ, with what you say. Like you go in, you can get, you can, you can, I don't wanna say get fixed up cuz it's, that's not the right way to think about it, but you get the whole thing. You, you, you know, whole, whole person health, but just doing, touching the Lord, you know. So, um, Bell of Health allow, I talk a lot about them all the time. I'm blessed to be on the board along with a, uh, one of the, uh, members of the community here in Ave Best Primary Care in Colorado in my opinion.
Speaker 0 00:36:46 And you go in there, they have the blessed sacrament in a beautiful chapel. It has a spa environment. You have the wealthiest of the, uh, larger Denver metro community going there. You also have some very poor folks that are going there and you don't wanna leave. You get great care, you great, great medicine. Uh, you also get preyed with, you receive, you receive, you encounter God in the natural and the supernatural. And every phase of what's happening at Bell, again, nothing's perfect, but it's outstanding. And, um, and we see other hospitals, the Sisters of Perpetual Adoration of St. Francis, it took me a long time to be able to say that <laugh>, it's a mouthful, but they run 13 hospitals in the Midwest and they're doing a very good job with the big system of, of reclaiming the mission of Christ that is Catholic healthcare. Yeah. So there's some great stories and
Speaker 2 00:37:39 It's not really imposing on the Catholic mission. It's really, it's just like, we want to teach the human person. Right. You wanna heal the human person, body, soul, spirit. Right. And it, and, and when that begins to happen, Right, right. It's, uh, it's beautiful.
Speaker 0 00:37:53 It's attractive. Yeah. And, and if, if we have time for one, you know, maybe I could say one last thing, but I'm a huge fan of, um, I should, if I can think of it, I can send to him. But Jonathan Rayes, I can't imagine you don't know Jonathan Ray, who's a professor of Crystal College, and he spoke to a group of focus students, uh, at one of the seeks couple years ago. And he said, Crisis is a reality. We're not imposing. He's the reality. And I think our challenge in part is to live a life that reflects his love so that the, the magnitude of the attractiveness of God, um, is also attractive to other people through our witness. And so, um, I think that, um, increasingly a lot of our, uh, allies in healthcare and Catholic healthcare and pro-life care are doing that. Um, God designed the body and so, uh, he's got all the answers even in science and medicine. Um, and so whether it's with Christ Medicus and the work we're doing with our kiro, uh, Catholic health community or some of our allies is, is as tough our as things are. And I'm gonna talk about that later today on campus. Um, there's a lot of beautiful things that just weren't happening 20 years ago.
Speaker 2 00:39:04 Okay. So, you know, before we shift to our kind of closing segment and a few specific questions I wanna ask you there. I do, you know, just we spent a lot of time obviously around, uh, you know, teaching young people, uh, here at the university. Uh, and it's my joy to work with them. What would you say to young people who are thinking of going into law mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, as you did, or medicine, which you're now working with, and Sure. I think so many students are interested in these areas. What would you say to, um, you know, a young Christian, a young Catholic who wants to, you know, go into medicine or law mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:39:37 <affirmative>, I think particularly if they're an undergrad, undergraduate or even in high school, but if particularly to undergraduate students, the formation of the mind and the heart is absolutely vital. Um, and obviously the heart can be understood in a certain level as the measure of the the full person. Um, but given how fragile human beings are, we need the formation of the mind so that we can intellectually know the truth, but the, we also need the formation of the heart so that our emotions can be anchored in the truth and the complexity of the questions in law and in medicine and bioethics are so enormous that to be successful and fruitful and loving, it requires that formation of the heart and the mind. And what an opportunity to be, to be able to do that as an undergraduate place like Avamar University. Um, and so now is the time to do that. Um, theological philosophical, um, formation right now can pay massive dividends and on a certain level is more important than most of what you'll get. Uh, the first couple years of medical school and law school. You need to know the basics, but the questions that our young folks are encountering once they become doctors or once they become lawyers or nurses are so, are so complex and so susceptible to deception. Um, that, that, that formation before you get into to graduate school, I think is in a certain level more important.
Speaker 2 00:41:29 Yeah. The way you're describing that reminds me of this idea sometimes that medicine can ask questions that medicine can't answer. That's true. Right. And in any field, Yeah. We, and we ask questions on those larger questions, Right. What are we, where are we going? How are we living? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> these are these, um, or elements, Uh, so can
Speaker 0 00:41:49 I, can I lean into that a little bit? Yeah. Real quick. I don't know if we, this is gonna be a little controversial, but I think it's, it's a little easier a year from now. You know, you have to be careful, but I'll say this, um, part of what you're talking about, we went, we went through Covid. I'm not gonna go too deep into it, and, but we made the mistake much of the church made the mistake of, of in Word and indeed showing that we cared more about the body than the soul. And that's, that was dangerous. And we can't do that again. Father Roger, Roger Landry wrote a very courageous article and natural Catholic register saying exactly that. And, um, but it shows that, um, we have to have this integrated formation. We life doesn't happen in a vacuum. Uh, and so the work that you're doing, and you know, here at Ave in theology, the work that folks are doing in philosophy, how that comes together with science and bioethics, these things can't be handled in a vacuum because, you know, um, I believe as much as I want to live long life, my soul's more important.
Speaker 0 00:42:59 And so, um, so that's what you said is, is exactly right. And we have probably felt it more than ever as a country than you know, uh, that, you know, science is important. Can I explain everything?
Speaker 2 00:43:11 Yeah. So I'd like to close with just three quick questions for you. Um, what's a book you've been reading lately?
Speaker 0 00:43:19 Um, <laugh>, I've been reading two, actually, I'll give you three. Can I do that? You
Speaker 2 00:43:27 Could, yeah,
Speaker 0 00:43:27 Absolutely. Okay, sure. So, um, Bill Barr came out with his memoirs and it's called, it's called, um, ah, I'm forgetting the name.
Speaker 2 00:43:39 William Barr's memoir. Memoirs
Speaker 0 00:43:41 For Now Memoir. That's right. Yeah. Right. That's right. I'm also reading Social Neon's Memoirs. Uh, I think it's called Between Two Millstones, the Notre Dame published, uh, back in 2018 or 2019. Uh, I've started to be restored by Dr. Schutz, my second book of his that I'm reading. Um, and, uh, the Bill Bar, The Bill Bar memoirs are interesting. It's got a, it's got a funny title that I was debating whether or not to say any, you know, to say the title. But, uh, but it's also neon's really good. He's a, he's a real man for our time. Uh, and it's called, again, Between two Mil Millstones, Volume One, Volume Two, I think it's Notre Dame University.
Speaker 2 00:44:17 Yeah. His writings was really one of the first that really kind of exposed a lot of the horrors of the Soviet Union and the Gulag Acapela, the, the prison system.
Speaker 0 00:44:27 Right. And
Speaker 2 00:44:27 So, and when he was first doing that, people were still often thinking like, Hey, this is a good way of running a society. Yeah. And he was one of the Right. And then when he came to the US and spoke at Harvard. Right. Um, he had quite a challenging word that he said the West was, you know, losing its soul too, so.
Speaker 0 00:44:44 Right. No, and I think we see that now's powerful. He's prophetic. Yeah. The Bill Bar book, I just came to mind one damn thing after.
Speaker 2 00:44:51 Oh, <laugh>. That's great. Yeah. So secondly, uh, what's one thing you do every day or at least try to do every day that helps you to find meaning and draw closer to God? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:45:03 Um, I love to run in the macro sense on day to day. I mean, most days, oh my gosh, why am I doing this? But, um, I try to run three close to three miles a day, three to four days a week. And, um, when I'm not pressed for time and I have just freedom to just kind of go, it's, it's, and I've gotten good sleep, It's just great. I really love to run and pa paired with Lord of the Rings probably on a day to day basis. Something related to Lord of the Rings and running are some of the greatest, and coffee <laugh> are like the greatest, the things that, like, I, I could go without alcohol for the rest of my life. I don't think I could go with without coffee. So coffee, Yeah. Lord of the Rings and running are some of the greatest joys of my day to day life.
Speaker 2 00:45:54 That's awesome. Yeah. And, uh, last question. What's, what's one falsehood that you believed about God at some point and that some truth that you discovered that has changed your life?
Speaker 0 00:46:09 God doesn't really care about me, so I need to take it into my own hands.
Speaker 2 00:46:13 Mm.
Speaker 0 00:46:15 And the the truth is I just need to trust. Um, I just need to, I need to depend on him. I need to get, give it all over to him. And so, um, I should never, we should never try to take things into our own hands. It's always a call to trust. Yeah. So that, that's been post reversion, that's been the biggest, biggest
Speaker 2 00:46:39 Lesson. That's, that's beautifully put. Uh, so for, uh, listeners who might be interested in some of the things that you have shared today, would you, how would you direct them to find more about the Christ Medicus Foundation and other programs?
Speaker 0 00:46:55 Sure, Sure. Yeah. Two websites. We got Christ Medicus, C h r i s t m e d i c u s.org christ medicus.org. And then cmf kiro cmf c u r o.com.
Speaker 2 00:47:08 Well, thank you very much for being on our show.
Speaker 0 00:47:10 Great to be with you. Love the questions. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:47:12 Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:47:15 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our enunciation circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
