Recovering the Sacrament of Marriage

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Now, canon law dictates it's clearly stated that marriage is assumed valid unless and until proven otherwise. What part of that is consistent with no, you have to get a civil divorce prior to an annulment hearing. It's as though Canon law said the opposite. This book is the answer to my friend, how did we go wrong? How can we recover? Where is there hope? [00:00:29] Speaker B: Welcome to the catholic theology show presented by Ave Maria University. This podcast is sponsored in part by Annunciation Circle, a community that supports the mission of Ave Maria University through their monthly donations of $10 or more. If you'd like to support this podcast and the mission of Ave Maria University, I encourage you to visit avemaria.edu join for more information. I'm your host, Michael Doffaney, and today I am joined by John Clark, who is a columnist, who's written, I think, almost 500 articles for the National Catholic Register and many other places, and is the author of a new book, betrayed without a Kiss, defending marriage after years of failed leadership in the church. So welcome to the show, John. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. [00:01:20] Speaker B: That's great. Well, we're so glad you're here. And the theme of marriage, I think, is so important to recover. And it's interesting if we think about Leo XIII kind of at the beginning, in some ways, of the modern age, of our societal understandings. At the end of the 19th century, he said that the family was the basic unit of society, that we're not individuals in society, but we're members of a family. And it's really marriage that actually makes that family what it is. Right? And in this book, you talk a lot about how marriage is being forgotten as a sacrament. So maybe just to start with, kind of almost mean, isn't marriage just people's private? Like if they fall in love and have a beautiful Taylor Swift song or something, you know what I mean? [00:02:17] Speaker A: Right? [00:02:18] Speaker B: Isn't that just their own private business? Why should the church make such a big deal about marriage? Isn't this just between two lovers? [00:02:28] Speaker A: Well, it's a great question, and you're right. That is how society is looking at it. I would look at it this way. I believe that matrimony is a primordial sacrament, because when you start looking at how the church functions, everything sort of begins with matrimony. It's not an accident that in the garden, it seems to have played out that way, right? It's not an accident that the gospel of know Jesus began his public life at a wedding. There's a lot of tells here, and it's hard to ignore them. But realistically, the way that is drawn up by Jesus, the seven sacraments are symbiotic, and a couple is married. They produce children. Their children are probably either going to marriage or holy orders. And so from holy orders, you have, obviously, priests who are marrying people, administering the sacraments. So we really need to go back to the idea that not only is matrimony a sacrament, but it's the primordial sacrament. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And it is interesting when you talk about Genesis, I think it's funny. People get so confused or worried about genesis and science and trying to figure out how does Genesis, the story of the seven days of creation, how does this work with modern cosmologies and modern scientific understandings of perhaps some evolutionary aspect of the cosmos and these sorts of things? And that's an important question. And the church has taught a lot about how Genesis is manifesting the order and goodness of the created universe. Right. But I think sometimes we forget that right at the heart of Genesis, especially two, is the idea that marriage is revealed. So not just is the universe structured and ordered and somehow good, very good. Not only are human beings made in the image likeness of God, but that marriage is something that is really unveiled. It's like within our fallen world, we might not recognize the beauty and dignity of marriage. And historically, many cultures have not. I think historically, sociology or anthropologists will say that basically forms of polygamy are probably more often kind of practiced within ancient cultures or tribal cultures. And I love the fact that you begin your book with Genesis, the book of Tobit. What is it that we need to learn from Genesis about the nature of marriage and how it's so maybe different than perhaps, say, our culture views marriage? [00:05:09] Speaker A: Well, I look at it this way. So in terms of answering what is marriage? What is matrimony? A lot of times when we try to answer that question, it's sort of a one sentence thing. Well, here's what the catechism says. But the problem is that sort of the one sentence answers don't really tell us the story. But if we look at Genesis and we keep in mind that sacraments are restorative. So my idea was, let's go back and look at what did God attend from the very beginning? And so we learned that the primary purpose of marriage is the procreation and education of children. That's very evident right away, as you're saying. We see that it's indissoluble. So the education of children, which we would probably a better word would be upbringing, because the latin word in English doesn't exactly education. Is that about algebra? Okay, so it's about bringing up children to come to heaven, to be raising saints. So we learn about the fidelity of marriage. It's all in there. And I thought that is the best way to really understand what is it that God intended from the beginning. And we talk about the primary purpose of marriage, but also the primacy of marriage itself is essential to a society, and that's what's being denied now. That's the problem. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And the other thing that Genesis does that I think is really fascinating, again, that people don't always pay attention to is, say, in Genesis three, in the story of the fall, we often, I think, somewhat have, like, a little bit of a grade school mentality about reading Genesis three, which is, we're like, oh, our world is bad, and it's Adam and Eve's fault. Right? And so we're just like, oh, if only they hadn't done it, I would be okay. But I think Genesis three, about the fall is really more of a mirror. It is talking about Adam and Eve and this cosmic, kind of cataclysmic event in early human history where there's something that got off. Right, that there's something wrong with us. We're slightly crooked and bent, and we don't live in a way that actually allows us to be happy and to be connected with others easily. But what happens there is that when we look at it, what we begin to see is, wait a second. Marriage is actually at the heart of the curse. [00:07:22] Speaker A: Right? [00:07:22] Speaker B: At the heart of the curse is this idea that woman's pain in childbearing, in pain, you will bring forth children, right? And you can think about that. Not just the pain of childbirth, per se, but think about the pain of having children in a fallen world. Who will die? The Pieta in Rome. Mary holding Jesus. Mary holding the dead. Jesus. Every mother who has a child has a child who will. [00:07:58] Speaker A: That. [00:07:58] Speaker B: That wound that happened there. And then again, the woman's desire will be for her husband, but he will rule over you. So man is not meant to rule over woman. They're meant to be equal, and he's meant to guide and lead. And then, of course, the man's work, which he does for the sake of the family, is now broken and wounded. Right. So our experience then, of marriage, as in this world, is actually kind of a fallen vision of marriage. And then what the Bible does is, wait a second. In the beginning, it was not so, right. [00:08:32] Speaker A: That's right. [00:08:32] Speaker B: You're actually meant to be in harmony with one another. But the Bible is very realistic in also, though, showing that there's a reason why we need the sacrament. That's exactly right. I think I was kind of wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that idea, because I think some people criticize the church's understanding for being idealistic and not really being. Not giving due attention to the history of sin and brokenness and whether even abuse within families or different stuff like that, it seems to me. Whereas actually, what you get in the Bible is a very realistic portrait of fall and marriage as the normal experience of cultures and histories. And yet behind that is this original order and the fact that then, the way you described it, the sacraments are meant to restore us to an order that isn't really part of our own experience. It has to be revealed to us. So could you say more about that? [00:09:35] Speaker A: Well, sure. And I think that one of the things to focus on in the book of Genesis is that we talk about marriages and trouble. If you want to talk about marriages and trouble, go to Adam and Eve. I mean, creation fell. It doesn't get a lot when, you know, that starts happening. They're what? They're blaming each other. So the devil is trying to make the couple. The temptation is make the couple divorce God. He's not trying to get them to divorce each other, not yet. He's trying to get Adam and Eve to divorce God, because marriage is a triangular relationship. But what's interesting is, with all of the tumultuous things that they went through, and they're really incomprehensible to us. Right. They never seemed to have even considered getting a divorce. They never thought of it. And so as difficult as it was, they didn't consider it. And I think realistically, you make an excellent point in that. Look, we're fallen, and yet we're expected to be married. God's command hasn't changed. We're still so. To be fruitful and multiply, so his command to us is retained even though we're fallen. Right. And realistically, we need to keep that in mind, because sometimes there's this idea that, well, this marriage isn't perfect. How could we stay together? Well, we know it's not perfect. It's two imperfect people getting together and trying to get along. And sure, it's two sinful people, but the reason that it's raised to the level of a sacrament, at least in large measure, is to provide the grace to accomplish that, a grace that a mother doesn't even have to help her own children. That is a unique thing. Matrimony is beautifully unique insofar as this is a grace that is given to these two people. It's unique. There is no other relationship like that. And we need to keep in mind, of course, it isn't perfect. We can't make a perfect thing as imperfect people. Right. From metaphysics problem. Right. So that's so important to keep in mind because I think a lot of times people just want to give up because if they know it's not working out, we kind of know it's going to be tough. To your very point. That's fundamental to keep in mind. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that idea, if we think about what is a sacrament in some, you know, a sensible sign of invisible grace. And what is the grace? The grace is not abstract. The grace is really the life of Christ. It's really the mission, as Aquinas will say, the mission of the Son and the spirit in the heart of the faithful, in the person of the faithful. So Christ and his spirit dwell in us through the sacraments. So we have access to this strength, but also the power of forgiveness and to recognize that we can be forgiven. Not only can we forgive our loved ones and forgive our spouse, but also we can be forgiven. And of course, the beauty of the corollary there that I need forgiveness. [00:12:45] Speaker A: That's exactly true. And I think one of the things that I've tried to stress in this book and the interviews I've done and the writing I've done surrounding the book is this marriage is about forgiveness in large measure. Right? And so much so, I can make that even more concrete. So when I go to confession and have my sins absolved and walk back out the confessional door, my marriage is stronger for it. That's how Jesus, for lack of a better term, drew it up. I mean, this is it. When my wife and I go to daily mass and kneel down afterward for a prayer of thanksgiving together, our marriage is better for it. And it's really beautiful when you think about the connectivity, the symbiotic nature of the seven sacraments, they're all working together so beautifully. But you're right, we have to forgive ourselves, forgive others, but the sacraments are meant to be practiced together. Right? So that's how we have to sort of approach marriage, is that we should be living lives of reconciliation, the sacrament of reconciliation, but also human reconciliation as well. [00:13:50] Speaker B: One of the things that you point out in your book and also is mentioned in the foreword by Catherine Godfrey Howell, I think, is a canon lawyer. [00:14:01] Speaker A: Is that right? [00:14:01] Speaker B: Yes. She mentions, and you mentioned as well, this interesting connection between the Eucharist and marriage. And in part one of the ideas there is that just as we're having kind of a crisis of belief in the real presence in the Eucharist, that Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul, and divinity are present substantially under the appearance of bread and wine. [00:14:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:14:31] Speaker B: So that in the Eucharist we actually receive, this is my body, that's my blood. But that you're saying that that's paralleled with another crisis of faith, which is not believing in marriage as a sacrament, not only theoretically, but even just experientially, that my marriage or a friend's marriage or a parent's marriage are not valid, are not substantially. Christ is not substantially present in those. Explain a little bit about how did you come to that insight, and how do you think maybe, if there's a common route for the crises in both, are there kind of common roots for hope in trying to heal them? [00:15:21] Speaker A: That's a fair point. Well, I would say. I would explain it in two words to keep it real simple. Words matter. Right. So this is my body that matters. That's real. I do. That matters, and that is real. And so the problem is, if we're looking at it and thinking what really happened here? I said I do, but it was 27 years ago. Did I really understand? Maybe we should start with the idea that we're not meant to fully comprehend the sacraments at some level. Right. Explain to me. So we need to start with words matter if you're saying, I do. Yeah, but you didn't really. Was the confection of the Eucharist real? And so when Jesus again drew up the sacraments this way, we're not meant to question them. Right. I understand. So in my book, I concede the fact that there are some marriages that never were. Right. There was something, there was a defect at the beginning that never were, whether there were 72,000 in one year like that. My contention is that is not correct, and the Roman Rota has confirmed that. But the point is, the similarity between the two, or the parallel, as you say between the two, is that words matter. And when we stop believing that, this will not stop with the two either, because when the priest says, your sins are forgiven, it gives the formula for absolution. Do those words matter? Does anointing of the sick matter? We're going to start questioning all of it. We need to accept that words matter. Right. And that, to me, is the key thing. I'm glad you mentioned Catherine Godfrey Howell, that, by the way, to my mind, that's the best part of the books. So I thought what she wrote was brilliant, and her insights in there were really, I think, spectacular. [00:17:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And it is interesting, we are in such like a subjective age sometimes, age of relativism or different things like that. People will talk about Pope Benedict, on the eve of his papal mass before he was elected, spoke about the dictatorship of relativism. But I think this element of, if we believe there is a human person, the human person is somehow hidden inside the person, and the words or actions they do are never really fully expressive of that. And so it's the intention that matters, not what you do. I think catholic theology erred in this, not in terms of the actual teachings of the church, but there were definitely theologians who you talk a little bit about humane vite and the massive dissent around humane vitae. And a lot of that was saying that the actions you do don't matter. What matter is the intention with which you do it. So therefore, it's like, well, as long as in your conscience, it's okay then to have an abortion or to practice contraception really doesn't matter. [00:18:26] Speaker A: Sure. [00:18:27] Speaker B: Because what you say or do in the external world doesn't matter because it's only what happens in the internal world. And so I think this division, in a way, kind of runs really very deep, and it kind of does threaten in some ways. Right. The moral integrity of our lives and society. Right. And also. Right. I think you're right. And then the sacramental integrity. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. It's a good point. [00:18:51] Speaker B: So tell us a little bit about. And I think for the audience, it's always like, how does somebody sit down and decide to write a book? How do you decide to write a whole book about marriage? [00:19:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So about four years ago, a friend came to mind. He was having some trouble with his marriage and looked like a divorce and a nomen might be on the horizon. And so he came to me, recognizing me as a friend who know catholic apologist, and said, john, what's going on? What is the church doing? He was just trying to find some understanding. And so he occasionally, this conversation happened over the course of a few months, and he would occasionally come to me with, and say things that I thought weren't true at first. One of them was, and this was in a conservative diocese. Right. He said that in his diocese, the bishop mandated a civil divorce prior to even having an annulment hearing. And I said, there's no way that's true. It can't be. That's not the church I know, right. Well, as it turned out, he's correct. And I went on to discover that every diocese in America has the same policy. There has to be a divorce, a civil divorce prior to an annulment hearing, not a finding of nullity, but prior to even a hearing. Now, canon law dictates, it's clearly stated that marriage is assumed valid unless and until proven otherwise. What part of that is consistent with no, you have to get a civil divorce before we even hear it. It's as though canon laws are the opposite thing. That's kind of what started this process. And so I got a little curious, or I shouldn't use the word curiosity, because Aquinas doesn't like curiosity. I was wondrous, right? I had wonder. Well, studious is a strong word for me, but I had wonder. And so I started researching this, and I thought, where did we lose track? Where did we lose course? And not to mention the fact that I've been married over 31 years. So when I started this, it was married quite a long time. But this book is actually the result of this is my answer to my friend's question, what should it be like? How did we go wrong? How can we recover? Where is their hope? Because people need to hear that, too. And so, essentially, this book is the answer to my friend. [00:21:13] Speaker B: That's great. We're going to take a minute break or a couple of minute break, and then we'll return and dive in a little bit more to some of the details. And I would like to talk a little bit more about this mandate of civil divorce. We'll return in a moment. [00:21:29] Speaker A: Sounds good. [00:21:37] Speaker C: You're listening to the catholic theology show presented by Ave Maria University and sponsored in part by Annunciation Circle. Through their generous donations of $10 or more per month, Annunciation circle members directly support the mission of AMU to be a fountainhead of renewal for the church through our faculty, staff, students, and alumni. To learn more, visit avemaria.edu slash join. Thank you for your continued support. And now let's get back to the show. [00:22:06] Speaker B: Welcome back to the catholic theology show. I'm your host, Michael Doffiney, and today we are joined by John Clark, who is a columnist, catholic apologist, speechwriter, and author of a recent book by Tan Publishing, betrayed without a kiss, defending marriage after years of failed leadership in the church. So thanks again for being on the show today. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Great to be here. [00:22:29] Speaker B: So we were talking a little bit about this civil mandate for civil divorce as part of the annulment process. So it just occurs to me, it seems to me like one of the hopes for proceedings would have to be reconciliation, correct? [00:22:45] Speaker A: Yes. [00:22:45] Speaker B: So discuss that a little bit. How is that a goal, and how is that compatible, or how does that work within the current system? [00:22:54] Speaker A: Well, sadly, we could start just very briefly by saying that divorce is an industry in America. I don't know where it would rank in terms of the s and p 500, but divorce is an industry in America. So we didn't realize that the argument that is generally given as to why there was a divorce is mandated before an annulment hearing is this. The worry is that in common law, there was something called alienation of affection, and so the church is ostensibly, or dioceses, I should say, are ostensibly worried that if they find an annulment and then there's a divorce, the diocese would be opening themselves up to being sued for alienation of affection. Alienation of affection, basically is something applied to. It would be in, like, an affair where maybe, let's say, a man has an affair with another woman, his wife could theoretically sue the woman for what's called alienation of affection. So the church is concerned, the dioceses are concerned that that would happen to them. Here's the issue. When I heard that argument, I again had a little wonder, and I wondered why this could be, as it turns out, and I actually did a little homework, and I called divorce lawyers, and I was trying to figure out, okay, what's the rule? Alienation of affection only exists in six states out of 50, which means that, obviously, 44 states. Quick math. 44 states don't have this on their books at all, even in common law, and even the six that do. Churches are never sued. So in other words, we're worried about a phantom. They're worried about being sued for something that a holdover from common law that is never employed. It doesn't make any sense. That is commonly used. The second part of it is, and we've spoken a little bit about this, is that tribunals may view a civil divorce paperwork. Well, there's the proof these two can't get along. My argument is, in a world where we have unilateral, no fault divorce, how does that prove this? And beyond that, when did we get into the despair business? I have nine children. They all have interesting names, but I'll just use two for purpose of this exercise. So I have a son, Teresis, and a son, Demetrius. At what point should I say those two are never going to get along. And by the way, they aren't growing up. They would argue, they would bother, they would love each other at the end of the day. And I'm like, okay, it's all good. We'll get to go out and play football again. Right? But, you know, I think this whole idea, the backdrop is, well, this is proof they can't get along. What does that mean? That is not anything in the spirit of our faith. When do we decide? Well, that guy's never to go to confession. When do we ever say that? And yet with this process, it's a commonly used idea. So those are the two main ideas that people have. And I think both of them are really awful, as it turns out. [00:25:44] Speaker B: You mentioned in the book that just one thing, I think maybe for listeners, it's interesting. Everybody talks about kind of consensual sex these days. And it's interesting. The church says the same thing, right? All sex should be consensual. But the only way to consent to sex is marriage, right? Which is why. But you stand up and at the wedding, right? It says, have you come here freely? Do you come here for life, for perpetuity? And are you open to children and upbringing them in the faith? And then it says, having declared your consent, you are now ready to just walk through then. So a finding of annality would mean that some of those questions that were answered affirmatively were actually not. Or are there other impediments just so that people are aware of? Like, just. [00:26:33] Speaker A: Sure, that's a great question. So the vast majority is about psychological incapacity to consent. In other words, they had psychological problems so deep seated that they weren't able to marry, which I think is a very silly argument. And primarily because if that's the case, what you're arguing now is that man's nature has changed. So it turns out now everybody's kind of crazy. Nobody can get married. And in fact, the cantile Society of America, who is essentially from a monopoly on this topic, in effect, their argument can basically be summed up as. And I'm not being facetious much when I say the argument is basically, in this day and age, you'd have to be crazy to get married. And crazy people can't get married, so nobody's married. That's kind of the take. So many of these things are, well, after all, they'll go to age. Or, like, how could you? You didn't have the psychological capacity necessary. What's interesting to me about that argument is, until 1983, the code of canon law allowed twelve year old woman to marry and 14 year old man, I believe now it's 14 and 16. Right. So in other words, what the church is saying is that what level are we expecting? What level of maturity do we want? We need to show validity. Essentially, we need the average maturity of a 14 year old. And yet there are people that stand up at tribunals who are 50 and say, no, I was married three years ago, I didn't have the capacity. Marriage is pretty easy to confect. It's the easiest sacrament. Well, baptism is pretty easy. Marriage is pretty easy to confect, but that's generally the argument that is used. It's generally that. And so Cardinal Burke mentions this, who is the head of the apostolic signature, obviously he says, you know, the bar is set sort of so high psychologically that people now are wondering, well, could anyone marry? Do I have to be absolutely perfect psychologically? Well, people aren't perfect physically, certainly I'm not. People aren't perfect emotionally. People aren't perfect psychologically. Right? In my book, I talk about people. What if you have a fear of clowns? What if you can't get in elevators? These are the sort of things that are brought up and it gets a little ridiculous. I mean, it doesn't get ridiculous. It is ridiculous. [00:28:51] Speaker B: So something that is in principle true, which is that if you don't have the psychological capacity to say, I do and to understand what it means, but we've kind of reinterpreted it as something that is kind of like, I don't know, but you have to be almost like superhuman. [00:29:12] Speaker A: That's right. [00:29:13] Speaker B: To be able to truly do that. And instead of leaving it for perhaps some cases when that is genuinely not present. And I think you can see that too, because there has to be a basic sense for societies to function. And I think, again, this is partly losing something like the political, societal character of marriage. Marriage is a public covenant. It's telling the whole world that I'm going to have sex with this woman and raise the children that come forward. I'm on the line here. Right. That's kind of what it is, and therefore it's public. And I think we've in some ways kind of privatized marriage. And so we kind of somewhat have privatized everything these days, privatized religion and other stuff. And so I think when we see that, then it's basically like, hey, there has to be most public, political, ecclesial contracts. Don't have that high of a bar. I mean, I don't know how to put. You can't have like, it should just be the bar, like kind of like. Yes, you have to. Obviously there will be times when through severe emotional or psychological distress or severe lying or force or manipulation or all sorts of different things. But I think that is a fascinating idea that there has to be, that the normal expectation is that most of us are capable of committing an act of marriage. [00:30:47] Speaker A: Well, that's it. And also, too, the church is not expecting a PhD in theology to be able to be married. And you know, Father Pilon, who I quote in this book, who actually was my doctorate professor at Chrysanthemum College, which is cool. So Father Peelon made draw an interesting parallel that I hadn't considered. He said, you know, so back in the 60s, when the annulments started to skyrocket, went from 336 annulments to two years later, it was over 5000. So it happened very quickly. It happened alongside something else. And I hadn't thought about this until he pointed it out. The idea that no one can commit a mortal sin or it's very, very hard to commit a mortal sin. I mean, after all, there are three conditions necessary. Who in the world has all three conditions, right? So it's interesting that marriage has those three conditions you just mentioned. Mortal sin has three conditions you just mentioned. And so the confection of marriage is sometimes compared to the mortal sin standard. Right. So there's a parallel in these two. And I think that's interesting because you can't commit a mortal sin, you can't get married. Well, that's kind of the thing that the arguments are both being made for similar reasons. And I think that the problem going forward is for people that are listening and saying and not thinking there's anything worse that can come of this. The same argument could theoretically be used for holy orders. Can a person who is clinically insane, can they receive holy orders? Is it possible that question is going to be asked? And that's not a conversation we really want to have. When you start doubting the sacraments, things happen and they're bad. So that's where we are, unfortunately. [00:32:30] Speaker B: And there was in that same time period, in the huge amount of people that were leaving religious orders and the priesthood. [00:32:40] Speaker A: Good point. [00:32:41] Speaker B: Latestations over. I think the same kind of logic, which is I didn't really know what I was doing. [00:32:46] Speaker A: Right. [00:32:47] Speaker B: And again, I don't want to make light of certain situations that are really where people actually are experiencing severe and grave mental illness or struggles or different things like that, but we don't want to create a society in which I'm totally unsure of who I was yesterday, and I don't know what I did yesterday, and therefore, I don't know who I am today, because that really creates a lot of. And in some ways, the beauty of the sacraments is that my faith rests on the vow of Christ in which I share, because I made that vow of baptism, I made that vow of marriage, I made that vow of priesthood, and I trust those, and that gives my life meaning and purpose. [00:33:30] Speaker A: That's true. And I would add to that. It's a great insight. I would add to that, to your point about the fact that there are some marriages that never were, that only appeared to be. The problem is that if you're in a diet, I'm not going to name a diocese, but if you're into one of the dioceses that approve 100% of applications for annullity, and there are over a dozen, last time I checked, of such dioceses, they're all approved. If you have someone that should have actually had a finding of nullity, sometimes we look at them sort of like, well, yeah, you got a nomin. Everybody did. That's not fair to them. And I think the system we have, to your very point, the system we have is not fair to that man and a woman who actually should have had a finding of nullity, because we kind of think, well, I don't know if that's real. That doesn't sound legit. You see what I'm saying? So it creates issues for everybody. It's a mess. [00:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So one of the things I also appreciated about your book is that you kind of begin with this biblical vision of marriage. You even go through a little bit of Henry VI and a famous attempt at getting an annulment and splitting the church over, not getting one, and all sorts of different things. And then you talk about this, but then you move again forward at the end to try to represent a kind of image of how can we make pre cana programs more successful? How can the laity recover marriage? So it's really, overall, a vision of hope, and I do think it's worth just taking a little bit, step back with respect to some of our societal things. And you talk a little bit in the book about even, I think, 1953, the rise of playboy, and then, what, 72 ms. Magazine or something. And I think the first issue that came out, abortion, was about abortion. And so we certainly have those things. But I think there's also kind of like a core conception of kind of this myth of romantic love is what I would call it. Where it's not that we don't believe in marriage. We like marriage. We might like marriage in a Disney movie. We like marriage in sort of things, but it's kind of like we live in the world of Taylor Swift. Right. That marriage is when you are completely in love with another person and have all distrusting marriage as a structure and kind of distrusting all institutions. We kind of say feelings are all that make marriages what they are. [00:36:08] Speaker A: Sure. [00:36:09] Speaker B: So what do you think is going on with the cultural kind of mindset that reduces marriage to a feeling and whether or not that's about praising relationships or lamenting breakups, it seems to me there's something in our culture that's looking for something but is also really confused. [00:36:32] Speaker A: No, it's a great point. I mean, growing up in the. Both did. Right. So we heard our share of you turn on the radio, you hear your share breakup songs. I mean, we had all these different groups talk about breakups, but I think there's something different now. I think what's going on with sort of the Taylor Swift sort of genre. Right. She's the most popular person in the world, I think, currently. Correct. [00:36:57] Speaker B: I think more popular than Mickey Mouse. [00:36:59] Speaker A: Right, right, exactly. Something like that. But what's happening right now is, I think, the romanticization of breakups. I think there are a significant number of teenage girls that want to date so they can break up, so they can sing along to Taylor Swift songs. I think that's where we are, and that creates a culture. So it's sort of like in modern films now we have. Right. So the hero in the movie is almost, he's either James Bond and he's ever been married. He's been with, I don't know, three dozen women or, I don't know, five dozen women, whatever it is. Right. Or you have the cool guy that's divorced. He's the hero. How often is the dad the hero of a film? You occasionally see it, but it happens so rarely, but when it does happen, it kind of stands out. Like, wow, that was cool. That's like a dad. He's got kids and stuff and he's the hero. And I think that is culturally disastrous because if children are growing up thinking dads aren't cool, like moms aren't cool, like, no, it's a divorced people. And it's sad because it's in almost every film. It's been going on in a while now. But I think that the Taylor swift culture sort of adds to know and it's sad. [00:38:09] Speaker B: It's a little bit, I think, of chasing. It's looking for beauty and wonder, but not quite able to find it. It reminds me a little bit almost of like a comet, so to speak, when a comet falls in or we see something, or not necessarily like comet, but like a meteor, it's like it falls to earth, it burns, it's beautiful, and then it's gone. And so I think you're right. I don't know that people want to have breakups, but I think they think breakups are the normal process in relationships. Relationships get really intense and then they break up. [00:38:47] Speaker A: Sure. [00:38:47] Speaker B: And that's the normal mode, instead of seeing relationships as kind of trial grounds for marriage. And once you enter into that, then it stabilizes. And so again, I think having this distrust of institutions instead of recognizing that, wow. I think Chesterton says this in a way, that he has a couple. I think one thing he said about marriage, right, is it's a duel to the death of which no man of honor should decline. But it is a certain sense in which that I'm going to work at this marriage until I die. I'm going to work at this relationship until I die. That's really what marriage is. But he also says this idea, Lewis quotes it as well, in four loves, but in a way that Eros, or romantic love, makes promises that only charity can, like lovers do, promise forever to each other, but only charity only in a way the divine order of mercy and forgiveness can actually keep that promise. [00:39:53] Speaker A: I think that's true. And charity comes from grace. So all our acts begin in grace. And I think that the difficulty we put ourselves in by saying, no, this marriage isn't working. Not to discount, again, to your point, that there are troubled, terribly troubled marriages or war, what seem to be marriages and ever were. But we're sort of saying to God, the sacramental grace you're giving me is not enough. Well, actually, it is enough. What's lacking isn't the grace. What's lacking is the acceptance of grace that can be applied for all the things we do in life. Right. And so ultimately, a lot of this comes down to a denial that God loves us enough to give the grace to fulfill this. This is what, the discussion came on very early with this, because the apostles, when Jesus said, there's no divorce from the beginning, was not so. The apostles saying, what are we going to do? And our Lord says, because you'll have the grace to do all this and more besides. And that's still the answer for us. [00:40:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think part of that as well is this understanding that life is filled with suffering. Life is filled with suffering, and that grace doesn't take away suffering, but grace gives us the ability to bear suffering. [00:41:04] Speaker A: That's right. [00:41:04] Speaker B: Without losing hope. And I think there is an aspect of our culture that wants to avoid suffering. Again, there can be instances in which there can be extreme forms of suffering. Sometimes might need to. Obviously, you do need to protect yourself, protect your children, et cetera. I'm not saying, but one way or another, our lives are still filled with suffering. And it's kind of on the cross, Jesus leans into suffering, and so somehow we're not going to avoid know when you run away from suffering, you just create more suffering. And so this aspect of acceptance, I think, of suffering and relying then not on my own strength, but on the strength of the sacraments of baptism and marriage. And it's kind of like the only way you could ever survive marriage is with the sacraments, with it as a sacrament. [00:41:57] Speaker A: It's true. I used to be a college baseball coach, and I would always tell the kids, and I didn't invent this. I read this somewhere, that the diamond that is the baseball diamond defines who we are. I think suffering defines who we are, right? In large measure. We all walk through the valley of shadow of death. What marriage does is it gives me a hand to hold and offers my hand to my wife to hold as we walk through it together. But you're right, there's going to be suffering. But end of the problem is when people say, well, there's too much suffering here, I've got to get out. There's this and that. Again, our disclaimer that there are marriages, but realistically, many people are getting up far too early and not seeking a reconciliation, borne out in the fact that the first time a couple sometimes sees a priest, it's when it's already in trouble. This is why I talk about priests coming to bless homes, get to know them. St. John Viani, I think, commonly had dinner with or visited his parishioners. He never traveled very far from his church at his whole life. He's the patriot St. Of priests. Why don't we take a lesson from him? Get to know the families, help nourish their marriages. That's the foundation of the church. [00:43:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that image of having somebody's hand to hold through the valley of tears. And there's also a great, this resurrection icon or ascension icon, especially in the eastern churches. But Jesus is rising or is ascending to heaven, and he's holding Adam and Eve by their hands and pulling them out of the tombs. And it's kind of like, that's like all of us. [00:43:31] Speaker A: That's right. [00:43:32] Speaker B: It's really Jesus that puts our hands together. I feel like every marriage, in a way, somewhat has to kind of have that surrender and that trust that only Jesus can love my wife the way I'm called to. [00:43:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:43:51] Speaker B: And so that deep ability, maybe just. I love that. You just mentioned home blessings. You're getting your house blessed, which is a great way. I think it's a great little. And members of the audience who haven't had their homes blessed, I'd say it's a great way to strengthen your marriage and family life today and invite a priest. What's maybe one other, just a practical suggestion that you might offer to people who are hearing this and maybe also unmarried people, maybe people who want to get married or just different things? [00:44:22] Speaker A: Well, I would say live a sacramental life. I think that's a key thing. And so, as I mentioned, the seven sacraments are symbiotic. So live a sacramental life. Go to confession more. If your marriage is going through a tough time or if it's going through a great time, try to go to daily mass every day for a month and look what happens to your marriage. I bet it improves. Maybe it's just that simple. I think living sacramental lives, make sure you're in the state of grace. That's the lifeblood, right? That's the lifeblood we have. Go to confession, say the rosary with your family. Live a life of prayer and the sacraments. That's key. It doesn't matter where we are. I mean, I always say I have a storybook marriage. I like to say I've had a crush on my wife since Reagan was in office. Okay? That's where I'm at, right? Not everybody has that amount of blessing. Not everybody has been gifted quite with that. But if you're in marriage, my sacrament of matrimony is not better than yours. Right. So we just have to remember that even. I have a lot of recommendations in this book, but even if the dioceses ignore all of them, and they may, I don't know, we can take it upon ourselves to strengthen our marriages, and I think we have to, instead of, at some point, instead of pointing fingers, we have to say, okay, what can I do today to help my marriage get better and ultimately also pray for your spouse? [00:45:47] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for writing the book and for talking about it today. I want to ask you three questions I ask all my guests on the show. What's a book you're reading? [00:45:59] Speaker A: What am I reading? Right. Know, my thing is I always have a lot of different books going on at a time. Right now I am reading a doctorate Calvary by Pierre Barbett because I'm doing some research right now into the stigmata and I'm trying to find out some hows and whys of that. But doctorate Calvary. And by the way, I highly recommend it. I haven't finished it, but it's really fascinating. And the insights and the crucifixion are amazing. [00:46:22] Speaker B: And what's a practice you do on a daily basis? Know, find meaning and purpose in your life. [00:46:29] Speaker A: One practice? Well, I do try to go to a daily mass every day. I mean, here in Florida, and we're in different parts of Florida, you probably get even more hurricanes than we do. I would say up north now if I'm in southwest Florida, up north is Kissimmee, but we try to go to daily mass. But realistically, my wife and I, before we get out of bed, we pray together. And I would say that's pretty essential to a strong marriage. That's great. [00:46:52] Speaker B: And last question, what's a belief that you held about God that was false that you later discovered? And what was the truth you later discovered? [00:47:03] Speaker A: I guess I would answer it by saying I didn't quite ever realize growing up how much God loved me. And I think that, interestingly enough, I think marriage helped me understand how much God loved me. In fact, I've actually thanked my wife for, and I'll tell her, you've helped me understand how much God loves me to put you in my life. So I don't think I was wrong about that. I think it was incomplete. And I think a lot of times with theology, when we study theology, we don't discover that we're wrong about things as much as we discover. I was incomplete about this. I didn't quite understand the full. And I still don't get it, like, God loves me more. Even in heaven, I'll never understand how much God loves me. I'll just appreciate it more. But I think that I have come to understand what those words mean more, and I hope I can go much further in this life and then in heaven, how much God loves me. I think it was just incomplete, but I think God is by the grace of God. He's helped me understand that in a more full way. [00:48:06] Speaker B: Well, John Clark, thank you so much for being on the show today. Again, the book we've been discussing is betrayed without a kiss. And I also wanted to mention by the way that you have two daughters at Ave Marine. [00:48:18] Speaker A: I do, yes of course. [00:48:19] Speaker B: So you're also an Ave parent? [00:48:21] Speaker A: I am, and one of my daughters is majoring in theology so yes. [00:48:25] Speaker B: Excellent. Well and again for those who are interested in the book, it's available at Tantan Publishers. So again, thanks for being with us today. If you enjoyed the show, please consider subscribing to the podcast or sharing it with your family and friends. So thanks again for being on the show today and thanks for joining us. [00:48:45] Speaker A: Thanks for having me. [00:48:48] Speaker C: Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the catholic theology show.