Speaker 0 00:00:00 Because of the time and place in which we find ourselves already beginning really in the enlightenment, the church understood through Vatican two, that the way in which we address the world can no longer presuppose Christianity. We're evangelizing a secular world that has lost its appreciation for transcendence, for beauty, for truth.
Speaker 2 00:00:27 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael dk, and today I am happy to be joined by Father Blake Britain to discuss Vatican two. Welcome to the show, father.
Speaker 0 00:00:43 Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 2 00:00:45 Excellent. And, uh, so Father Blake Britton is a priest of the Diocese of Orlando, Florida, and a member of the Word On Fire Institute under Bishop Robert Barron. And, uh, he's recently written a book published by Word on Fire press called Reclaiming Vatican Two. What it really said, what it means and how it calls us to renew the church. Uh, so thanks again for being on my show today, father.
Speaker 0 00:01:15 Oh, of course. It's a privilege. And thank you for inviting me. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:01:18 And so it's always fun, by the way, when we have, uh, you know, authors and books. Yeah. Uh, how did you get interested in writing a book on Vatican? Two,
Speaker 0 00:01:27 Quite providentially, uh, <laugh>, obviously, you don't wake up in the morning and say, Hey, I think I'm gonna write a book today. It's something that the Lord over time develops within your heart, within your soul. So for me, I was first became interested within the Second Vatican Council, uh, through an old Irish Monsignor. And I feel like all of us have met at least one of those in our lives. Uh, he was named Monsignor David Page, he was actually present at Vatican two as a secretary Yes. To one of the bishops who were participating in the Council. And he started to regal me really with stories of Vatican two and sort of the fascination that, uh, revolved around it. And this is what initially piqued my interest in so far as researching the council. I was about 18 at the time. And, uh, little by little I just fell more deeply in love with the wisdom, with the genius, with the orthodoxy of Vatican two.
Speaker 0 00:02:13 And then as I started studying Vatican two more deeply, I became more also ingratiated, sort of more aware, if you will, of some of the tensions that lie around the topic of Atan two, specifically between what I now label as Peronism, what's popularly called liberalism. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and tradit Traditionalism, which is popularly called, uh, conservatism. But I think those two, uh, terms are much more appropriate. So Peronism traditionalism, as I became more aware of sort of the, the disagreements or the tensions and those two opposing camps, if you will, it, it reoriented my research, tried to understand what can we do to ease some of these tensions, and what can we do to also return to the original intention of the council. One of the things that, that I noticed is that each of these camps made claims equally about Vatican, two, that were also equally untrue. <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, or they perceived certain things in the name of Vatican two that were not necessarily within the document text themselves. So also, what could I do as a priest of the church to help dispel some of those narratives and to refocus it on the original intention of the council. So that's sort of what eventually led to the publication of the book.
Speaker 2 00:03:22 Ah, that's, uh, really, really well put. And, uh, it's, it's interesting because I, I really, one of the things I really appreciate about your book is that, uh, I think you have seven chapters mm-hmm. <affirmative>, two chapters setting up the situation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then four chapters on the four major documents. So you actually not only help us to understand how Vatican two has been misunderstood or perhaps, um, uh, even, you know, like abused at different times, or at least the ideas that people have used it for their own interests, but also really what does it actually teach? Right? Right. Because these four, uh, these four major documents right on the liturgy, on Revelation on the church, and then the church and the world are really kind of the cornerstone of, uh, the doctrinal teaching about who Jesus Christ is, how he's transforms our lives, how he, in a certain sense transforms the world, and how we can not only come to get to know him, but how we can help others do the same.
Speaker 0 00:04:21 Exactly. Uhhuh, there's one of the primary goals of the book to dispel the narratives so that we might mm-hmm. <affirmative> return to the beauty of the council itself. That unfortunately sometimes is detracted from because of these inner conflicts, if you will, that are happening within the church. The documents themselves are utterly superb. The sad fact is that, that many, many Catholics don't know anything about them. You know? Yes. And I'm not saying that accusatorily in any way, shape, or form, I'm just saying in general that that's something, uh, that's a bit of a tragedy because they're magnificent and they could really build up the faith of God's people if we're able to read them firsthand. So that's also one of the main goals of the book, is to get people inspired to study Vatican two.
Speaker 2 00:05:00 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Now, when I came back to, uh, the faith, I converted back to really first Christianity and then to Catholicism in the early nineties. Uh, it was very popular at that time. Right. The early nineties, still kind of the end of the seventies and eighties, to have, uh, you'd often hear people talking about the spirit of Vatican two <laugh>, and the spirit of Vatican two was always moving. Right. And, uh, unfortunately far beyond the letter of Vatican two. Oh, very much so. So I thought you gave a really helpful kind of way of understanding, uh, like how did that happen? So, could you describe a little bit about how the, the spirit of, the spirit of the council became separated from that? The letter of the council?
Speaker 0 00:05:45 Most certainly. Most certainly. And I, I never say the spirit of Vatican two without making the sound of a ghost, of course. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, Ooh, <laugh>. It's always sort of that, that haunting thing. Right. The spirit of Vatican two. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, uh, that originated in what I call the para council. Now, I stole that, um, vocabulary word from Enr de Lubock, a famous 20th century Jesuit. Um, he first identifies what we call the Para Council in a, a lovely essay that he wrote at the end of one of his books. Uh, and in there, this is within two decades of the closing session, he is already noting that there is a group of theologians and also popular media personalities Yeah. Who are starting to become sort of a counter magisterium Mm. In their interpretation of the Second Vatican Council. So taking that idea of De Luba, I then did some more research and I was able to delineate, uh, three aspects of the Para Council. Okay. That lead to the spirit of
Speaker 2 00:06:36 Attic two. If I may, for some listeners who might not be familiar with that expression, what does para mean there? P a r a para council, para conciliator.
Speaker 0 00:06:45 Yeah. Para conciliator would be almost like an alternative council, or, um, another way of having the council, uh, we, we say this sometimes even in the liturgy, a para liturgical activity. Okay. Is this activity that we do, which has a liturgical bent, but is developed alongside the actual intention of the liturgy itself. Okay. Uh, and so the same thing would be true of the council. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you have the actual council, then you have the Para Council, which is this, this other sort of narrative Interesting. That is perpendicular, if you will.
Speaker 2 00:07:14 It's almost like the council then the counterfeit council, or Exactly. Potentially very
Speaker 0 00:07:19 Much so. Okay. Very much so. Yeah. The Para Council is not a positive thing. <laugh> Okay. By any means. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that is a negative connotation, most certainly. And, uh, and so the, the Para Council taking that idea from Deach, uh, I was able to then through study and research, uh, delineate three aspects of the Para Council. Yeah. And, and these are the council, the Majesty Council of the, uh, theologians, the Council of the Media, and the Council of the Age. So first the Council of the Theologians. It's no secret that there are multiple theologians at Vatican two and afterwards who were disappointed by the council. Why? Because the council did not approve, meaning the magisterium, the 2,500 bishops who participated, did not approve of their particular theological ideologies. Um, even if they did integrate some aspects. So there were multiple heavy hitters at Vatican two.
Speaker 0 00:08:04 You had Carl Ronner, you had Edward Siebeck, you had edits, Congar Deach, Ratzinger car, VOI, et cetera. Uh, and some of their ideas were confirmed by the magisterium, and some of them were not, which is all part of the conciliator process. But in the post conciliary period. So those first several decades after the closing session, we had groups of these theologians who disenchanted by the conciliator process, decided to use the name of Vatican two sort of masquerade underneath it, unfortunately, uh, in order to promote their own theological ideologies. And this was aided and embedded by what I call the Council of the media. Now, Vatican two was the first council in church history to actually be covered by mass technological media, so television, radio, newspapers, et cetera. And that, uh, brought along itself with itself, uh, certain presuppositions, specifically from American media. Uh, we know that, that American media is always political.
Speaker 0 00:08:58 We're a political nation. That's just part of our character. You go back to 1776, it's been that way. The, the conflict between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, the Federalist and the Republicans. Right. So this has always been part of our dynamic. The issue is when you project this dynamic onto the Catholic Church, it's an inappropriate, it's inadequate. Yeah. Um, and so what happened was America Media started to report on the happenings of the council as they would on American politics. And this is also when you first start getting into the common sort of vernacular of the church, if you will, the notion of conservative and liberal Catholics. That was not common language before the Second Vatican Council. That was brought about strictly by American media coverage of the
Speaker 2 00:09:37 Council. And this is also during the sixties, right. When you start have progressives, you have liberal and progressive, uh, social, political things, and then conservatives. So then they just took that same model of liberal and progressives and placed it right onto the council. Politic political was certainly liberals and progressives versus conservatives and reactionaries or
Speaker 0 00:09:58 Something. And you can read excerpts from, uh, the New York Times in 1961, for example. Yeah. Where they ascribe certain bishops by name as liberal or conservative. And unfortunately, we still have holdouts of that nowadays in the church. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, where even, uh, in current media, you'll hear the label of, well, that's a liberal bishop. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's a conservative bishop. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, or that's a liberal Catholic that's, uh, wrong, very poisonous, very deadly for the faith. Uh, that's something that's not appropriate for ecclesiology. It's not appropriate for theology, because the church, of course, transcends and supersedes political boundary. It's something that's so much more rich and beautiful. So we have to have vocabulary that's adequate to, to her nature. Um, and that's why I always distinguish between para council and traditionalism, or if we wanna talk about right and wrong, it's just orthodoxy or unorthodoxy, <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:10:44 It's, you know, yeah. You're Catholic or you're not Catholic. Um, so those are much better ways to, to discern it. You alluded to the sixties and seventies, that actually is a perfect segue to the final part of the Para Council, which is the Council of the Age. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we know that the sixties, seventies, and even up to the eighties under the presidency of Ronald Reagan, uh, that it was, it was a very turbulent time in American history. You had multiple things taking place, not least of which the Civil Rights movement, the sexual revolution, drugs, rock and roll assassination, John f k assassination of M L K, cold War, et cetera. There's so much happening in that time. Yeah. And emits that also implementing a council. This brought with it all of its own kinds of particular issues, um, and cultural significances. So combine that now with an age that is primed to rebel against the establishment, which you alluded to a bit earlier mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:11:35 <affirmative>, that was very popular. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, in the sixties and seventies that was in vogue. This kind of notion, I'm gonna stick it to the man. Well, there's no one that's more the man than the Catholic church <laugh>. I mean, we're the oldest single institution on the planet. And so, uh, if you really wanna stick it to the man, a lot of Catholics from the sixties and seventies claimed, well, you gotta stick it to the hierarchy. You have to stick, stick it to this old pre Vatican two church, and some of that vocabulary's still around too. Well, that's pre Vatican two, you know, that's pre we, we don't do that. So it's almost as if, you know, 1959 or 1960 was year zero in the life of the church, and we have to continue a new church. Um, that's why that one hymn is horrible, seeing a new church and the being <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:12:10 I was like, no, that's, that's a heretical hn. We don't sing a new church into being mm-hmm. <affirmative>. The church has been founded on the rock of Jesus Christ. It's 2000 years old. And of course, the church continues to mature and continues to grow in her understanding and wisdom, as John Henry Newman says. But that's never at the cost of her tradition or her beauty. So, and that can too, is very explicit about that in multiple occasions. So that's really what, um, the para council, the spirit of Vatican two mm-hmm. <affirmative> comes from, is that this Paraic conciliator thought starts developing this language of the spirit of Vatican two in order to sever themselves from the original text so that they might freely theologize in their own ideologies and promote them in the name of the council itself.
Speaker 2 00:12:51 Wow. Well, um, yeah, you can really see then how, if you have almost three kind of para cons, para councils or counterfeit councils that are going on amongst and with the, you know, uh, you know, as they would've, uh, kind of infiltrated, I don't know how else to put it mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but certainly, uh, that these ideas became very influential Yes. On, uh, seminary professors. Yes. Very much so. On priests, on, on bishops throughout the world, uh, as they're kind of trying to navigate this, these people claim to speak with authority. And, uh, we began to get this kind of shift. Right. Uh, and so what then happened in a way, in terms of trying to recover the authentic teaching of the council?
Speaker 0 00:13:40 Yeah. So multiple things happened. Uh, so Peric Clarism really took its roots, sixties, seventies, eighties, still, of course has long-standing consequences. Now, uh, there are two reactions that happened because that one of them, very positive, one of them negative, both of them of course, having seeds of truth, is all things do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So the one negative would be the rise of what we call traditionalism. Now let me make a very clear distinction here. To be traditional is an outstanding thing. Yes. And we should all be traditional, right? Yes. Yeah. So that's a very, very good thing. Traditional wisdom is something quite different. Traditionalism is the ossification. The stagnation. What that basically means is it's the metrification, if you will, of a certain time period in the life of the church saying that that time period was the definitive fullness of the church alone, apart from the rest of her history.
Speaker 0 00:14:24 And that that time period of the practices and pieties of that time period are universally applicable for all time and are superior to all other manifestations of the faith. Uh, and so you'll get that sometimes in tra traditionalist movements is this notion that anything that was not explicitly stated in the Council Trent, or in the Baltimore Catechism, or the extraordinary form of the liturgy, cannot be truly considered Catholic. But then my question becomes, who discerns that? Who has the authority to make that claim? Well, it's only those to whom the office has been entrusted. I can't make that claim. I don't have the office of liturgical expression in the life of the church that re resides in the papacy, in the magisterium. So traditionalism becomes dangerous insofar as it becomes a, an abstraction or a disembodiment from the organism of the church. Now, that being said, traditionalism of course, hits on many fantastic points, insofar as the need for salinity and beauty and the liturgy, the need for proper catechesis, the critique of para conci.
Speaker 0 00:15:19 Yes. Which is very true, recognizing the mis implementation of Vatican two. So there are many things that traditionalists bring up, which are quite appropriate. But the way, and maybe some of the ideas that flow from that, from both personal woundedness, many traditionalists have experienced wounds, um, insofar as witnessing liturgical abuses that offended them, um, feeling like they've been gypped in their own catechesis or formation. And so there's a reaction in that direction. Uh, the primary person who started doing that, of course, was Archbishop Marcel Lafe, um, who eventually found the S S P X. And he does that, um, originally with a very good intention, uh, with no desire whatsoever to break away from Vatican two, because he voted for all the documents of Vatican two, um, including Sacc, Santic, and Chillum.
Speaker 2 00:16:01 Well, so lav voted for all the documents and actually supported absolutely Vatican two, he
Speaker 0 00:16:07 Supported Vatican two, he says that also in the post conciliary years mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and he, he and himself in his journal and in his letters, it's quite fascinating. He'll state very clearly that what is happening in the name of Vatican two. So he doesn't use the same language as de Luba. Yeah. But what he's alluding to, of course, is the para council. Yeah. And to the spirit of, of Vatican two, what's happening in the name of Vatican two is not what he voted for mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:16:30 Hmm.
Speaker 0 00:16:30 <affirmative>. And he says, this is not what the bishops intended. And he recognized that. And the purpose of the SS P X was to sort of be a stalwart against some of that inventive sort of, um, uh, experimental, if you will, liturgical expression that was happening in the so-called spirit of Vatican, too. Of course, we know the story with the SS P X, unfortunately, um, some disobedience creeped in, and eventually it led to some real tensions. Lafe was reconciled by Pope Benedict before his death, which is quite beautiful. Um, so we thank God for that.
Speaker 2 00:16:58 And I think if I may, I please heard you give a talk recently on, uh, on Vatican too. And, uh, you, you quoted some numbers. Yes. Right. You said there were almost 2,500 bishops that were present. And what were some of the, do you remember some of those numbers? I think you said something there were, what was it like?
Speaker 0 00:17:14 So let's just use the document on the liturgy, for example. So out of 2,500 bishops over 2,400, so 2,400 voted in favor, only four voted against.
Speaker 2 00:17:24 Wow.
Speaker 0 00:17:25 That's an astronomical figure. <laugh>. Okay. Like thinking. So imagine if our Senate voted that way on things <laugh>, we can barely get a vote of 50 to 51. Yeah. Uhhuh <affirmative>, sometimes the vice president has to break the vote on things. Yeah. At Vatican two with over 2000 bishops, well, 99.9% of them. Okay. Agreed on every single major constitution. Yeah. The ones of greater debate were some of the minor constitutions, such as the one on religious liberty and et cetera. Um, but the four major constitutions, I'm not talking just a majority. I'm talking a super majority. Yeah. Always over 2000. Always over 2000 with a negative between the range of four to seven, four to eight,
Speaker 2 00:18:03 Four to eight votes. Yes. Out of 2,500,
Speaker 0 00:18:05 Outta 2,500 for all
Speaker 2 00:18:06 That. Really. So this really is a consensus expression. Very much so of the deposit of faith as judged by the successors of the apostles
Speaker 0 00:18:15 On both the east and the west. Yeah. That's also an important point. This was not a Latin council. Yeah. This was an ecumenical council. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So the fact that you had the East and the West with magisterial people authority expressing that gives an extra kind of credence to, to of course, the dignity and the teaching of Vatican two. So to end with just some of the reactions. Yeah. Real quickly, what's been the positive reaction, however, to pair of conciliation, it's been this resource mon, what that means is it's been this, uh, deep question to say, yes, we need tradition, we need beauty, we need orthodoxy. But yes, we also need a sense of renewal and focus for the post-modern post-Christian world. So how can we do both these things without compromising each other? How can we live the dynamism of the Christ event, which we call the incarnation and the Catholic church?
Speaker 0 00:19:09 How can we embody our ancestral tradition and not lose its salinity and dignity, while at the same time reaching those who are outside the strattice of the church that are odd, extra eccles that are outside of the church. And from that is birthed. People like St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict the 16th. You see specifically in Joseph Ratzinger in a very brilliant way, this unbelievable ethos of Catholicism, which is this ability to lose nothing and to gain everything. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's something I, I think is an important principle as we move forward, is if you, we are truly being Catholic, we're not actually losing any part of our identity, but if we're truly being Catholic, we're also constantly expanding and deepening our identity at the same time. And here's the flaw of, of both Paraic Conci and Traditionalism. Peric. Conci loses our identity. Traditionalism use loses the deepening of our identity, the expansion, the maturation of our identity. So if we're able to find a balance between those two things, then we find Catholicism. And that's why I think Ratzinger really embody
Speaker 2 00:20:08 You. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and I think Ratzinger with a couple other theologians was part of, right after the Council Consilium Right. Was a journal that became the para Oh, very much Conor. And really just kind of made up doctrine and morals as, as they saw fit. And so he returned back and founded Kimo. Yes. Uh, which was that sense of, no, we need to seek the authentic, uh, conciliator teaching in, in connection and continuity and communion with the tradition. Yes. Uh, it's also the case that John Paul II would describe at a couple points, right. His pontificate mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, which went from, what, 1978,
Speaker 0 00:20:48 Over 20 years
Speaker 2 00:20:49 To 2005. So as really all about he was at the council, and that his certificate was dedicated to the implementation of Atan two. Yes. Yes. Could you say a little bit about John Paul ii Oh, my, as this, uh, what, what, what was he doing and what were some of the ways that we might like what maybe some specific instances that we could see connections between maybe his teachings and what he saw was the genuine letter <laugh> for sure. And spirit
Speaker 0 00:21:19 Of adding, that's a whole nother podcast. Yes. <laugh>, he's, uh, I mean, he's an amazing saint, one of the greatest saints and church history by far. Um, there's a reason why they add onto his name, typically the great, uh, which I think is quite worthy. St. John Paul ii, as you mentioned, present at Vatican two. His real brainchild was of course, got him ASPEs. Um, his fingerprints are all over it. At that time. He was Bishop Carroll Vertua, um, and you can see of course, reminiscence of G him spe and his first and Encyclical, Redemptor Hoons. And then later on in the 1980s, his famous audiences, which we now call the Theology of the Body. So there's a continuity in Carol Voit was thought that goes all the way through his papacy and this desire to implement. What he really, uh, focused on more than anything was actually the anthropology of Vatican two, um, was the, the Christ event of Vatican two.
Speaker 0 00:22:05 And this is something else I think that we need to appreciate. It takes at least a hundred to 150 years to properly implement a council. This is a fact of history. If you go back even to Cal Sudan and Ephesus, for example, immediately following the Council of Ephesus, St. Vincent's of Lorong wrote a whole document called the Commentary, which was dedicated to the proper interpretation and implementation of the Council of eus, because so many people were misinterpreting its original intention. So this has been an ongoing issue since the early is, uh, centuries of the church. And that's okay. That's part of being a living body. I mean, you don't learn how to walk right away. You sort of crawl, then you stumble around, then you start to walk, and then you start to run. Uh, so we're in that time period right now with Vatican two, John Paul II knew he would not be able to implement the full vision of the largest ecumenical council ever in the 2000 year history of the Catholic Church in his papacy.
Speaker 0 00:22:59 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Benedict also knew that, and Francis also knows that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and so each of them had to discern in their own way. Each Pope, since Vatican II actually going back to Paul, I six, has had to discern in their own way, what is the spirit calling me to, to hone in on, to help people really embrace the vision of the Second Vatican Council for the third millennium. And John Paul II was a brilliant bridge through the unfortunate death of John Paul. I, I, um, the beginning of the work of Paul I vi, which was quite astounding by the way, the lifting of the ash communication on the patriarch of Constantinople. And several other, uh, major events in his life were already sort of paving the way. But John Paul ii, he focused on Christo Centrism because that was the real foundations of Vatican two. Jesus Christ is not a historical person.
Speaker 0 00:23:43 Only Jesus Christ is an event. He's happening now. He's here, he's in our midst, eucharistically primarily, but also in the sacramental life of the church, in the mystical body, in the poor. Jesus is here. That's why the Lord also gave us multiple saints to accompany the papacy, John Paul ii, such as Teresa Calcutta. Hmm. She also embodied this notion of, of the spirit of Vatican two in the true sense, not in the peric conciliary sense, but in the sense of the original tension of the Council. That what do we do to go and seek those who are broken, to bring them into the mystical body of Christ? So John Paul II recognized he had to focus on the Christo centrism and anthropology of Vatican two. That was his will house. That was his gift. What is Ratzinger? Ratzinger, of course, is the liturgy that has always been the source and summit of his life.
Speaker 0 00:24:27 He says that from the time he's a seminarian in his journals, that he had a deep love for the liturgy. He had a deep love for the sense of the tradition of the faith. And he stuck to that with his papacy. And thank God that he did, because we're now still reaping the fruits of this modern doctor of the church. But Francis very clearly has been influenced by the notion of God, him asbe as well in social justice. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So this is the, the, this is his wheelhouse, so to speak. As a South American Jesuit. We know his background. This is what he specializes in. He's openly stated before, I'm not, you know, the theological pope, that's not my wheelhouse is not what I do. I'm, I'm a pastor of souls. This is the love of the heart of Pope Francis. And so recognizing that part of his gifts and his skillsets, that's what he's been more focusing on. Whoever the next Pope is will have to make his own decision as well. So that's really what's happening there, um, between all the papers e since Vatican two.
Speaker 2 00:25:15 Great. Well, thank you so much, uh, father, let's, uh, we'll take a, a short break. Sure. And, uh, when we come back, I'd love to, let's talk a little bit about those four, uh, major documents and kind of see a little bit about how the documents re-present Jesus Christ, both to the church and to the world.
Speaker 0 00:25:36 Sounds good.
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Speaker 2 00:26:10 Welcome back to the Catholic Theology Show, and today we're with Father Blake Britten, author of Reclaiming Vatican two. What it really said, what it means and how it calls us to renew the church published by Word on fire press. So thanks again, father, for being with us today. Of course. And, uh, so I wanted to talk a little bit about some of these actual documents. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, obviously, you know, we're not gonna be able to go through them all right. Today, but just a little bit about what are the four major constitutions? What are some, maybe what's, what are two key ideas of each
Speaker 0 00:26:45 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:26:46 You spoke about, uh, John Paul II's teaching John Paul ii one often quote a couple verses or a couple lines from gaudy, at best especially, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's only in the mystery of the word incarnate, that the mystery of man becomes fully revealed to him himself. That we don't ultimately know who we really are or our real story until we see that story in Jesus Christ. Right. Uh, you know, uh, <inaudible> would also have that beautiful line without the creator, the creature vanishes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and in a way we come to know the Creator perfectly, or, you know, I mean most fully in Jesus Christ. And, and I think in many ways, the council was really trying to respond to kind of this, what we now term post modernity mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and this deep loss of conviction of moral truth. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the conviction about the dignity of the human person, uh, conviction of the transcendence of really any tran notion of transcendence. Right. Right. So, you know, could we just go through a little bit, I, I really appreciate it too, the way you took these four, uh, and you suggested there's a way of, you have a nice little image of concentric circles. Yes. Right? Yes. But that, uh, tell us why, um, why do you, you know, how did the four go together? I think you said you begin with the, the, the liturgy always. Uh, so how do we, what, what does it mean to begin with the liturgy to begin in a with sacro sentum con chillum?
Speaker 0 00:28:14 Yeah. Just a comment real quick on the tone, if you will, of, of the documents in relation to post modernity, or what I call post Christianity mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, uh, because of the time and place in which we find ourselves Yeah. Already beginning really in the enlightenment, but of course reaching its full maturation through the destruction of socialism, communism, et cetera. In the sixties and seventies, even up to the eighties and nineties, the church understood through Vatican two, that the way in which we address the world can no longer presuppose Christianity. And this is fundamental in understanding evangelization. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, some people will draw correlations, for example, between the Council of Trent Anathemas and declarations along with Vatican two's constitutions mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And why is there such a radical difference between the two? And it's not that one is more true than the other, it's that they were addressing a totally different time and place in the Council of Trent. Even with the heresy of Protestantism on the rise, you still have the presupposition of Western ideals, fundamentally Christian ideals in post modernity. We do not. So what we're doing is not even evangelizing a neopagan world, we're evangelizing a secular world that has lost its appreciation for transcendence, for beauty, for
Speaker 2 00:29:26 Truth. Yeah. If, if I may, father, yeah. That this is something I think a lot of people don't realize in Vatican, one, which people are familiar with often emphasizing that the Pope could speak infallibly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> could teach infallibly, um, on very limited occasions, but, but that he could do so, and then also, uh, that we could come to know, uh, the truth about God, both by reason and by faith. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that God exists and that he has revealed himself. Uh, but in that, the beginning of, and this is around say like I think in 1870s mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:29:54 <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:29:55 Uh, it's 150 years ago. But it basically says is that if we reject reason's, ability to come to know the truth about God, which is already percolating for centuries. Yes. Right. Uh, by the 1870s. So basically we will eventually lose confidence in reason itself. Yes. And it basically lists a variety of social confusions, and that we will no longer believe in a way that we have reason. Right. Uh, and it's so interesting, like, and this is by the way, written just before, like Nche famously writes this. Right. V in a certain sense, NHI has nothing on <laugh> Vatican one. Right. But this idea, so just so it's not just Vatican two write a hundred years before the church is already beginning to notice that, um, right. This de Christianization mm-hmm. <affirmative> is really going to destabilize. Right. In a certain sense. Yes. Human life, human meaning, yes. Human society,
Speaker 0 00:30:55 It will, in St. PIIs, the 10th addresses it directly in Yes. Several of his writings and including an encyclical. And, and you're absolutely correct that this is something that, that had been building up in the consciousness of the church mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the 150 years, really prior to Vatican two. Yeah. Um, and the council now in a very magisterial and clear way, starts to address the fallout, not least of which of two world wars. Yeah. And socialist and communist revolutions. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> both, you know, horrific evils that took place in the 19th and 20th centuries. So that being said, what's very interesting, and I do, and I do this in the book, is I draw a comparison between a paragraph in the Baltimore Catechism and a paragraph in the catechism of the Catholic church. The C c C produced under, of course St. John Paul II and, uh, Joseph Ratzinger.
Speaker 0 00:31:41 And to see the difference on the same exact theological point. Okay. Not in, in the sense that there's a different theology, the theology's the same, but the way in which that theology is explained is so much more full and articulate in the new catechism. Again, not to say that the Baltimore catechism is less than, it's not, it's actually a brilliant catechism. Matter of fact, I strongly encourage parents when they're catechizing their children to always start with the Baltimore Catechism. Yeah. Cuz memories a great way to learn. But as we grow mature, the catechism produced by St. John Paul II possesses such an, an unbelievable nuance and articulation of the faith for a post-Christian world. It gives reason, like you just alluded to, it gives reason to the faith sources. It helps us understand, well, does God exist? Yes, God exist. Okay. But what does that mean?
Speaker 0 00:32:30 What are the consequences of God existence? Can I find that out on my own? What does it feel like when I meet this God who exist? Mm-hmm. So this is the way that Vatican two is theologizing. It's no longer dis stating truths Yeah. As we did in the Council Trent, or in even the neo istic period. But it was understanding that people needed to learn and encounter Christ anew from, from the very beginning. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when you go through the four, especially the four major constitutions, you can see that from the get-go. It is really profound actually. Yeah. That sacro San and Chillum, which we'll start with the first 11, 12 paragraphs of that document, do not state a single rubrical or liturgical change. They are spent entirely on the theology of the liturgy. That is unique. Yeah. That is quite unique. That hasn't been done really since the ancient councils of the church. So going back to Naea example. Um, but Vatican two really addresses more than anything, why should I love the liturgy? What are his origins? Where did it come from? Why is it dignified?
Speaker 2 00:33:32 So if I want to grow in my love of the liturgy, right. And the bishops mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the United States have called for a eucharistic revival. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I hear you suggesting a great place to start would be the first 11. Yes. The first 11 paragraphs or Absolutely. Or numbers sections of Sacro Senti consilium really think, how do I fall more in love with Jesus Christ in the Eucharistic liturgy? And this, in a way is at the heart of Sacro Sentum. Consilium.
Speaker 0 00:33:58 Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's an ex exportation I'll give here. Mm-hmm. And I'll give to at the end of this podcast as well, read, read Vatican, do documents. Yeah. But definitely, uh, the first 11 paragraphs mm-hmm. In particular of Sac second Chillum are just beautiful. They're magnificent. Right. Um, as are in Lumen, genium and Gia, Dave Verbus a bit of a different animal cuz it's focus was a little different. It's also beautiful, by the way. Yes, yes. Um, but really lumen genium and Gotti specimen in particular are just so well written. Um, it's just magnificent. But sacro sanchi, we always begin with the liturgy. Why? Because this is where Jesus gives himself to us in history. Uh, Christianity is not a faith of abstraction. It's a faith of incarnation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Jesus must be touched or else he's not real. This is something that, uh, that's true in the gospel of John, for example, after his resurrection when he appears and he says, see, I'm not a ghost.
Speaker 0 00:34:45 We see this actually amplified in all the synoptic gospels. And in the gospel of John, put your hands through the holes in my hands and my feet see that I'm flesh and bone like you give me something to eat. Jesus is constantly reiterating his incarnation, post resurrection, so that you understand, in order to really know this savior, you have to be in his midst. You cannot just read about Jesus. You have to encounter Christ or else you're not a Christian. And this is pivotal when it comes to the liturgy. The liturgy is the place where Jesus discloses himself in history. It's where he gives himself to us. It's where we touch Christ. And he touches us back primarily through the sacrifice of the holy mass. So when I say the liturgy, I'm not just speaking specifically about the mass, either I'm speaking about the other six sacraments, sacrament of reconciliation, the anointing of the Sikh baptism, et cetera.
Speaker 0 00:35:33 These are the places where Jesus in currently meets us in history, where he meets us in our midst. It's also, of course, as paragraph 10 of Sacro Senti Andum says, the source and summit of the life of the church. And then following in paragraph 11, it says, there is no activity of Catholicism that is more important than the sacrifice of the liturgy. Now that's a bold claim. Yeah. That means it's beyond preaching, it's beyond evangelization, it's beyond social justice. It's beyond all those things. All those flow from the church's primordial responsibility, which is to give right. Worship and reference to God. We see this going all the way back to the Old Testament with the Book of Exodus. Why are the people liberated from the Egyptians to the promised Land? Not for the land, it's for the liturgy. Yeah. The purpose of the land is to offer the sacrifice.
Speaker 0 00:36:22 But when God commands Moses to speak to Pharaoh, the command does not let my people go so they can go to the land. It's to let my people go. So they might give me right due reverence in the desert. So the purpose of the liberation is right. Worship. This is what makes Israel unique. Of course, we are the new Israel Lumen. Genium talks about that the Catholic church is the fulfillment of Israel. It's the fulfillment of Judaism. And so in that we are the ones who God has given to in his divine mercy, the right means of worship through His Son. By the grace of the Holy Spirit. Sstu Hadum focuses on that intimately and hones in specifically the first 11 paragraphs. Now, moving on, of course, the question becomes, uh, the primary, uh, objective, if you will, of sacro santum is the notion of what they call active participation.
Speaker 0 00:37:08 And I'll end with this only because there's so much more I could say. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Um, of, of course. I mean, I could go on to, to say how, you know, Latin is supposed to be retained in the Latin. Right. Um, all the different changes that have been made in the quote unquote spirit of Vatican two are not really in the spirit of Atan two. But we could save that for another conversation. Uh, but to really go to something that's quite positive and beautiful, sacro standing and Chillum really revolves around after building this beautiful theological vision of the liturgy, uh, this notion of active participation, which is to say, not that everybody should clap their hands and make massive sing along. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, on a much deeper level as Pope Benedict will elaborate in his book, spirit of the Liturgy, active participation is a deep catechesis of the faithful and the nature and purpose of the liturgy.
Speaker 0 00:37:52 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which then allows them to fill as if they're taking part, which they're supposed to. And if you read the original Patristic Text of the Sacred Liturgies, go back, for example, liturgy of St. James, the liturgy of St. Peter, et cetera. If you go to some of these original liturgies, you'll see that the congregation did have a very active role within the liturgy. There's this sense of community. And when I say active, I mean first and foremost, they were incredibly educated on the liturgy in the ancient church. I think this was a result of the Mystagogia as well as the early, uh, catechumenate way that was established primarily through seal of Jerusalem and others. But in addition to that, you also had this notion of the faith not being something presupposed, but something I had to take initiative to learn. So the ancient church had this deep sense of the liturgy, even above and beyond the Post-It Evil and the Renaissance and Trini nine Church.
Speaker 0 00:38:40 Uh, it was just something very supple for them or something very intimate. Uh, and so Vatican two wanted to reclaim in many ways that understanding of the liturgy through this notion of act participation, the revision of the lectionary cycle. We don't talk about that enough. That's a huge deal. Yeah. Before the second Vatican Council, there was a one year cycle and we didn't read the majority of the scriptures. Now there's a three year cycle, including a two year cycle for daily mass. So if you attend mass every day for over three years, you're getting over 70, 80% of all the scriptures. That's incredible. So there are multiple, multiple reforms that were made through Vatican two Sacin chillum that really, uh, unfortunately we have yet to appreciate in many ways. Um, we have yet to implement but really do enrich our, our understanding of mystery of the liturgy.
Speaker 2 00:39:24 Uh, that's really, uh, beautifully put. And uh, it reminds me actually, I think the right that term actu also parti on it. Yes. Right. This actual active participant, uh, began with Pius the 10th. I think it was the first one to use it, Pope Saint Pius the 10th. And it was also the one to, uh, lower the, uh, age mm-hmm. Of communion. Correct. Uh, and, uh,
Speaker 0 00:39:45 To combat jansenism
Speaker 2 00:39:46 E Exactly. Yeah. Right. A lot of these different, uh, renewals and they, they certainly have at times been, uh, the occasion of abuse is right. But one of the principle Catholic responses to Protestantism in a way, and you know, in the Reformation, was that abuse does not take away, use. No abuse does not take away proper use. We have to recover the proper use of our, of the faith. And, and I think absolutely. Trying to recover that is a beautiful, is is a great goal. And, and in some ways we can begin with ourselves. Yes. Right. You know, begin, uh, first to, uh, you know, kind of try to follow and repent our own and try to participate more actively. Um, well
Speaker 0 00:40:26 Every Catholic should own the Roman missile. Yeah. And read it Uhhuh <affirmative>, like they should know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they should know the rubrics. They should know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, that is the intention of the council. So that's something else I would encourage people to do. Buy a Roman missile. Yeah. Study it. Read the Eucharistic prayers, the theology and the Eucharistic prayers and the prefaces are utterly superb. Uh, and all four Eucharistic prayers. There's another, uh, very unique thing from Vatican two. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is multiple Eucharistic prayers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's not abnormal. We had that in the ancient church. Yeah. So it's not something radical or new, but it is something that that's quite beautiful for our own time, you know? Yeah. So there's a lot of examples of that.
Speaker 2 00:40:56 Yeah. So, so anyway, so, uh, we, so we have three more, uh, yeah. You know, constitutions.
Speaker 0 00:41:02 Three more in five minutes. Let's
Speaker 2 00:41:03 Do it now I'm probably not gonna be able to get through 'em all. Uh, I'll just say for, um, I, I, for me, Dave Verum I think really is kind of the cornerstone. We begin with the liturgy, but Dave Verum is the one that grounds everything cuz it says God reveals himself to us mm-hmm. <affirmative> through his word. Right. Right. Uh, in Jesus Christ. And then that word that he communicates in Jesus Christ, uh, kind of flows from that. Right. The, so the rivers in a way of scripture and tradition mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and then write the magisterium and, you know, and, and right at the heart of that says, right, the gospels are the historicity, the gospels cannot be doubted. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we tr this is, this is historic. We don't know, of course not all scriptures historical cuz some of it's poetical. Right, right.
Speaker 2 00:41:50 You know, and allegorical, allegorical and is all these different elements. But I think that's such a key moment. But could you say, uh, just a word or maybe, uh, like one what, what, what are, what's one key idea that maybe people should take away from say lumen Genium? Sure. On the dogmatic constitutional church and then one idea from, I mean, you know, there are many, and you and people can get the book and Yes. Uh, they can read a lot more and then they can read the documents. But what's one you might say from each,
Speaker 0 00:42:15 Uh, is the hinge document of Vatican two as is often called mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is absolutely true. The second Vatican council was not a council of the liturgy, it was not a council of the scriptures, it was a council of the church. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, it was really trying to understand through the rediscovery of mainly patristic and medieval text. Yeah. That was taking place 150 years prior starting the late 18 hundreds or early 18 hundreds rather, who are we as the church? What does it mean to be the mystical body of Christ? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this was actually prelude of course by Pius the 12th in his own encyclical Mystic Ties. Um, and so already we start seeing the groundwork of this being done in the papas preceding Vatican two. But Luen genium the document on the nature of the church, the essence, the mission of the church.
Speaker 0 00:42:55 It, it brings to the fore several terms, uh, from ancient Catholicism that are now common usage, thank God, such as the notion of the holy and beautiful people of God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that phrase, the people of God is popularized from the ancient church again by Vatican. Two a pilgrim people. We are a people on the way. So the church is in motion. She's not stagnant, she's not purely historical, but she is also a transcendental. She's going somewhere, she's on a mission, she's walking to somewhere else. She has someone laying in front of her. And that of course is Christ. That's someone who's laid hold, but there's someone else who's gone before us too. And that's the blessed mother. And this is where chapter eight comes in, which is actually one of my, uh, favorite sort of tidbits about Vatican two. One of the most hotly debated topics of the second Vatican Council was the blessed Virgin Mary and whether she should have her own document mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:43:45 <affirmative> or be included on the document of the church. Yeah. Now that decision has huge ramifications, which most people don't think about. Why in the decision of the magisterium to include the blessed mother in chapter eight of Lumen Genium as part of the nature of the church. What they're saying is that Mary is not a reality apart from the Catholicism. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But she in fact is Catholicism, which she is the blessed mother, is the embodiment. The best way to say it is that a, a Mary is the church in person and as person, which is to say that when you look at Mary, when you, when you gaze upon her body and soul sharing in the divine life of her son, through the assumption, what you're witnessing of course is the reality of Catholicism in the flesh. Mary is Catholicism because she's what Catholicism looks like.
Speaker 2 00:44:33 So when the human creature gives itself, it's
Speaker 0 00:44:37 Completely, entirely to
Speaker 2 00:44:38 The divine confused by the by divine, which is we are called to be as children of God.
Speaker 0 00:44:43 That's the Eucharist. Right. Saint Augustine. Yes. If you look his reflections on the theotokos, the God bear, that's what he says. He says, you're all theo toe cuz you're all Mary. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. That's, that's St. Augustine's claim. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:44:53 You're all married Uhhuh <affirmative>. So Christ is the Totus Christus the whole Christ head and body in Mary, so to speak, as the whole body. Yes. Of Christ. Of Christ or bride of Christ. And therefore what we as she's personifies the whole church and really our own vocations. Right. Which is to say yes to God the Father. Yes. To the bride
Speaker 0 00:45:17 Groom. And she's also acc constitutes what we call the ineffect ability of the faith, meaning the incorruptibility of the church. Why is it that the immaculate conception and assumption must both take part because Mary is not immaculate only so that she may conceive the Son. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, she's immaculate so that she may preserve the dignity of Catholicism itself as the church. So there must be one at the foot of the cross to accept the gift of the new Adam. And what's happening is that the immaculate conception, our Lady of Lord's affirms this jk I am the immaculate conception. Yes. A very bold claim. But what our ladies doing in that moment is that she's asserting her immaculate conception's. Not something that happened to her. It's something that she is Yeah. And this is a very important statement and the assumption's part of that as well. Because in order for the church to be perfect and ineffect, there must be a member of the church sharing in the divine life in person as body and soul.
Speaker 2 00:46:07 Yeah. And fully without the mar of sin. Listen, so exactly in heaven right now. Right. There are two bodies. There's the body of Christ mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Uh, who is right. There's Jesus Christ, uh, ascended into heaven, uh, who of course right reigns as the king of the universe mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, as the incarnate Right. Son. So both the eternal person of the son with a full human nature and also Mary. Yes. Right. So Mary then is the kind, is the way in which that grace that is communicated to the church through the son mm-hmm. <affirmative> is fully received in Mary Yes. As the kind of so we have in Christ in Mary, then the first fruits of the church existing eternally. Most certainly already. And that kind of gives us that sense of, um, that sense of like really hope and joy. That that that the reality that we long for already exists not only in Jesus Christ, but in the fruits of Jesus Christ that he has already raised Right. One to be at his, uh,
Speaker 0 00:47:14 Right hand. And this is what allows us too, as Catholics that no matter how many scandals rock the church mm-hmm. <affirmative>, no matter how much may happen Yeah. Can we say, is the church perfect? Yes. Yes. Yes
Speaker 2 00:47:23 She is. And in Mary absolutely special, the easiest way of putting it that in a way we cannot anybody can intuitively imaginatively, intellectually receive Yes. Is to say that the church is already perfect in Mary and will be perfected in us.
Speaker 0 00:47:38 Absolutely. Cuz there's a member of the church mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who is saying yes to Jesus when I don't Yeah. And her name is Mary. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's something that's truly, uh, that inspires our confidence. So that's what I say about Lumen genium, you know, many ways.
Speaker 2 00:47:49 Yeah. So, um, so let's just, uh, we, we can, we'll have to have you on sometime. Okay. Another time since we're
Speaker 0 00:47:55 So
Speaker 2 00:47:55 Baboon read
Speaker 0 00:47:56 It. Scripture tradition. Yes. Got him as best evangelized. There we
Speaker 2 00:48:00 Go. Yes. Yes. Um, so maybe just say a little bit about, you know, where do we go now? Um, how do we, you know, write This was, uh, the council, uh, finished in, uh, 1965 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so we're coming up on, uh, 60 years, the 60, you know, years mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what do we do today to help implement, uh, the call to renewal and re evangelization? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:48:24 So there's a scripture passage I always like to invoke when answering that question. And it is be as gentle as doves is cunning as serpens. Yes. Quite an interesting phrase. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> from Jesus. Uh, it always fascinated me. But what he's saying there of course is understand, well, the age in which you live, the problems that are facing that age, do not compromise your purity amidst it. Yeah. But also be prudent and wise in how you're trying to convert it. That's basically what that phrase is talking about. The same is true of course when it comes to Vatican. Two, we need to be patient, humble, obedient, but we also need to educate ourselves and understand what the church is teaching. So step number one would be to become holy. The response of the church to every problem is what a saint. Hmm. That's always the response to the church. If you look at World War ii, what was the response? Mass Mill Colby, John Paul ii, you know,
Speaker 2 00:49:15 Sanita Stein,
Speaker 0 00:49:16 Edith Stein. You know, if you look at what was going on in the Renaissance Church, you had Eventu Charles Bor, you had Philip Neri. Right. Eventually you had, uh, there Avalon, John of the cross. So the church can only respond in currently, she can't ab respond theoretically. And the way that she responds is saints. So step number one to reclaiming Vatican two is you're just becoming a Saint <laugh>, which is no small task of course, but it's what we're supposed to do is what I'm trying to do. Uh, part of that of course is educating ourselves on the documents themselves. We really need to read Vatican two, you mentioned earlier day Verbum, that deposit of faith, sacred tradition, sacred scripture, both of which are on equal footing in that regards. And that was actually a hotly debated topic of Vatican two as well. Um, is the relationship between tradition and scripture.
Speaker 0 00:49:59 But tradition includes ecumenical councils. Yeah. That as Catholics, we're not solo scriptura. So we're not only supposed to know the scriptures, we should of course, but we should also know the church's magisterial teachings just as well as we know the Bible. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I should know what did the Council of Ephesus say? Why is it important? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what the Council of Caldon say, what did the Vatican two say? I should know that stuff as a practicing Catholic. And if I'm not, I'm not enjoying the full gifts of my Catholic faith. So educating ourselves. And then finally, uh, what I call sort of the liturgical apostolate. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, now this is a phrase I adopted directly from Vatican two, actually. It's used in Sacro, santic and chillum towards pastors saying that the primary responsibility of a pastor is to liturgically educate his people, cuz the Liturgy's most important part of a pastor's life, of course.
Speaker 0 00:50:46 But for us as well, are we educating ourselves on the nature, on the essence of the liturgy. And I'll end with this and what I often call, um, a demonic versus a Christian faith. We know St. James gives that very, very bold claim that, uh, you have the faith of demons. He tells his community. And what he, he's really articulating about that is this fact. Demons are amazing theologians. Uh, they, they know theology, they understand the truth. And a matter of fact, in every single New Testament encounter with the Demonn, they never lie explicitly. But yet Jesus always silences them. Why? Because knowing the truth and what's right is not sufficient for holiness. It's how you speak it. And whether you believe it or embody it, that also matters. And so the Lord's silence of the demons, cuz they're speaking the truth without charity, they're speaking the truth intellectually without a conversion of heart and without humility and obedience to the father's will.
Speaker 0 00:51:36 That is also a danger for us as we educate ourselves on the nature of Vatican. Two, is that there's gonna be this temptation to say like, I know what the church teaches now, and I'm going to correct people who are doing it wrong. Whether that be a bishop or a priest or my, my pastor or my friends or what have you. That's, that's not right. That's a very dangerous faith. And if we listen to something, whether that be a podcast, whether that be a talk or what have you, that leaves us more resentful, more anxious or more angry. After we're done, we know's demonic that it's not from the sacred heart of Jesus. Jesus only leaves us with hope, with joy and enthusiasm. He only leaves us in the direction of mission of what we can do to continue growing in the, in the joy and the love of the spirit.
Speaker 0 00:52:17 So I share that because that is gonna be a cross for us to bear. We're amidst degeneration that really, um, is lacking that catechesis. And we're also amids a time that might seem, uh, turbulent and even persecutory against Catholicism against the true ethos of orthodoxy. But along with that, let's make sure we don't fall into that demonic faith of just trying to spew out facts and data, um, the truth in quoting our catechism, but really noting very deeply with obedience, with trust and confidence. The love of the Father and in the end, Christ King. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So everything will be all right. We know how the story ends. I mean,
Speaker 2 00:52:49 <laugh>. That's right. That's right. Uh, there's a beautiful line from St. Paul in Ephesians four where he says, let's your speech grieve not the Holy Spirit. And I think love it. Boy, I can, I definitely, I know that, that I know my speech at times has when it gives into resentment. Can I ask you a three very quick question? Sure, sure. Kind of running out of time, but I'd love to just throw him out there. One, what's a book you're reading?
Speaker 0 00:53:09 A book I'm reading right now. I'm reading multiple, I'm going through Von Balthazar's trilogy right now, which is actually 16 volumes. Yes. Um, but I'm doing the volume on the Old Covenant or the Old Testament, which is part of his Theo. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:53:21 That's great. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, what's a daily spiritual practice that particularly, I know you have many as a priest, but what's one that you know particularly gives you joy?
Speaker 0 00:53:29 Well, the Eucharist goes without saying, of course, yes. I celebrate. I haven't missed a day of mass, uh, once in my entire priesthood. And that was because I was on a plane traveling <laugh> and I couldn't do math with our changes. But, um, in addition to the Eucharist, it would of course be allergic the hours. Mm-hmm. Um, that is my bedrock. I love the allergic of the hours. And that's something else I mentioned in my book. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Vatican two encourages the laity to pray. Allergic the hours every Catholic should be praying, allergic to the hours, it will change your life.
Speaker 2 00:53:55 Thank you. And what's, uh, what's a belief you held about God at some point mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that you discovered to be false? And what was the truth you
Speaker 0 00:54:04 Discovered? Yeah. So that happened when I was quite young, actually. Ah, um, it was lent, I was 12 years old and I remember going to confession, absolutely petrified, uh, because of sin and thinking I was gonna go to hell. And when I encountered the divine mercy the first time, mm, to see the true face of Jesus, to treat, to see the true face of Christ, that radically transformed me in a very, very powerful way till this day. Um, and the way that I was treated in that confessional by the priest, the way that he approached me, which was very Christ-like, uh, left the lasting impression on me of the Father and what, who the father is. So that continues to be with me till this day.
Speaker 2 00:54:38 Great. Thank you so much, father, and, uh, it's been wonderful to have you on this show. Thank you. Uh, for those who are interested, again, father Blake Briton, a priest of the, uh, Orlando Diocese, a member of the Word On Fire Institute. His book Reclaiming Vatican ii, what it really said, what it means, and how it calls us to renew the church is available at Word on Fire Press. Thank you, Bre, on our show.
Speaker 0 00:55:01 Thank you. God bless.
Speaker 3 00:55:03 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
