Speaker 0 00:00:00 You know, either we sacrifice ourselves for others, or we sacrifice others for the self. You know, they, they're the only two choices. Once the choice of pride, the other's choice of humanity, which manifests itself in love, and Jesus Christ shows us that. And Chesterton, the Everlast man shows us that.
Speaker 2 00:00:23 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Dr. Michael dk, and today we're joined again by a good friend and a former colleague, uh, Joseph Pierce. Welcome to the show. He's
Speaker 0 00:00:37 Good to be back.
Speaker 2 00:00:38 So we've actually already done one show, and listeners, if they're interested, may want to go look, uh, check out this show. Uh, just a general introduction to GK Chesterton, and especially looking at his role in, uh, helping so many, kind of really find a home in the Catholic faith, or in the, in even the broader Christian tradition. Right. So, Chesterton and Conversion. But today we really wanna look at one particular book, Chesterton's The Everlasting Man. Now, Chesterton's Everlasting Man is perhaps most, uh, famously known right as the book that CS Lewis described as baptizing his intellect, uh, when he read it in, in, in the twenties, a couple years before his own conversion. Uh, so I'd just love to, you know, what is it about, uh, Chesterton's Everlasting man, uh, that kind of is, uh, so important, uh, maybe in the life of Lewis. And, uh, if you could just tell us a little bit about
Speaker 0 00:01:36 That. Yeah. Well, the Everlasting Man itself, you know, if you, if you were to ask what, what's, what's the most important or the best book that chess never wrote? It would certainly be a major contender. Okay. You know, uh, you could say the Everlast man. You could say, you could say Orthodox, you could say Francis Versai. Uh, you could say the book on Thomas Aquinas, maybe one of his novels. Maybe Le Le Panto some of his poetry. And of course he's a great essayist. But, um, as regards its impact on CS Lewis, um, he, he basically considered it a major milestone upon his, uh, path to conversion to Christianity. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, he was, uh, um, some, some somewhere between an atheist and a deist Yeah. When he read it. Uh, but, you know, he, he, he might have begrudgingly come to the acceptance of God's existence, but it was a, a sadistic, pathological God.
Speaker 0 00:02:25 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, whom he hated <laugh>. That God is this vivid receptionist in the sky that got some sort of sadistic pleasure in inflicting pain. So certainly a long, long way form the invasive Jesus Christ. Um, but he read the, the Everlasting Man. He said, I saw the Christian outline of history laid out before me for the first time. That made sense. Yeah. And again, the word outline of history there, because Chester's book was written as a repost, as a response to, um, to HG Rose's book, the outline of history. And perhaps in, in order to set the scene, we should say something about that. Okay. So this was a, a, this was an international bestseller, HT Wells, who was not a trained historian, but you know, was an act of labor of love and enthusiasm, uh, wrote this book, the Outline of History. Uh, it's sold all over the world, a popular success.
Speaker 0 00:03:13 A, uh, Hiller Bock, who was a trained historian, uh, was, uh, outraged. And he wrote a book called, uh, A Companion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> to HG Wells's Outline of History. HG Wells was outraged by Bock's response and wrote a book called Mr. Bock Objects mm-hmm. <affirmative> to which Bock responded with, uh, another book called Mr. Bock Bock Still Objects <laugh>. So there was funny check bock claimed have written a hundred thousand words in refutation of, of Wells's book, the outline of history. But the difference is, you know, so that, that this was the backdrop to Chester taking up the cauls, so to speak.
Speaker 2 00:03:48 No. Maybe for readers who aren't familiar, who is HG Wells, and maybe what was the kind of, what was the key outline of the outline of history, this book that was so popular? Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:03:58 Great question. Thanks for asking, cuz I was going to overlook that <laugh>. Uh, yeah. First of all, WELS is probably best known as a science fiction novelist. Okay. Um, so he, he wrote, you know, quite a few, uh, well-known science fiction, um, uh, books. That's what made his name. But this was an effort to write a history of the world from a perspective of a progressive materialistic determinist approach. So, for instance, uh, there's much more on the Assyrian Empire in the outline of history than the life of Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, sort of, it's almost as if the Christian presence is something that, that, that HG was, wants to airbrush out as far as possible. And everything is progressing to a golden age in the future where science will liberate man from, from superstition and religion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So this sort of progressive understanding of history rooted in philosophical materialism mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so that, that was, and, and of course, you know, a as with Dar certain aspects of Darwinian evolution is understood in the 19th century. This, this, this was used as a, as a, as a, a <unk> to be Christianity with. And the show that, you know, that basically this is, this is a true understanding of history and the whole Christian thing is a, is a distraction.
Speaker 2 00:05:07 So almost the kind of view that gets popularized in, say a, a show like Star Trek or something, we're in the future, we will have more technology, so therefore we will have more peace. We'll have health, we'll have medicine. And in the past we had illness, bism religion.
Speaker 0 00:05:21 Right. That's precisely it. Yes. There you see Star Trek as the product of, uh, a hg Wellsian understanding of history.
Speaker 2 00:05:28 Okay. So, uh, so Chesterton then read this, and what was, so how is, uh, the everlasting man of response? Well,
Speaker 0 00:05:37 What I fi find is wonderful. So obviously Aire Bek a great friend of Chester's, right? So Chesterton doesn't get, just get, get together with Ock and, and, and rang HG Wells. He said, well, how do we actually convert HG Wells? Right. How, how, how, how and his readers. Yeah. Right. Not it talks, Ock does it by just knocking down all the things, things that are wrong in factually. Okay. But what Chesterton does is, is is set up an alternative outline of history mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is basically rooted in the fact that the, so it's, it's in two parts. And the creature who is man, and then the second part is the, uh, the, uh,
Speaker 2 00:06:12 The religion that is Christ.
Speaker 0 00:06:13 Sorry, let's have a look at this. Good. To have the book handy here. Yes. So part one is the Creature called Man, and then the part is on the Man called Christ. Oh,
Speaker 2 00:06:22 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:06:22 Okay. And then the first chapter of the part, part one is the Man in the Cave, and the first chapter of part two is the God in the Cave. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the purpose is, you know, that he's, he's showing us that all of history actually points towards the coming of Christ. Uh, all of history prior to Christ points towards his coming and is fulfilled. Our understanding of the meaning of history is fulfilled in the person of Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then everything since Christ A also points to Christ, but also he shows how Christ somehow fulfills and baptizes history. That history is f fulfilled and made perfect in Christ. Whereas before there were groping and grapplings in the dark and the twilight, uh, some good, some bad. But the point is that history was always gonna be in this twilight zone. Okay. Uh, where until, and unless God reveals himself, and, and God does, obviously in the person of Christ. So what he, what Chester's doing is showing that an understanding of Christ is essential to understanding human history.
Speaker 2 00:07:24 And it also seems one thing that's interesting is that he, you know, almost begins by saying, okay, let's grant HG Wells's view of history. Let's try to imagine that everything we know is just this ongoing aimless evolution of lesser complexity to greater complexity. Um, but nothing really different. So man is just an ongoing, evolving, and Christianity is just an ongoing, evolving, it's all this evolutionary soup, so to speak. And then what, what I, what always struck me is he says, okay, let's try that. And he says, the more we look at, so he doesn't try to say, man is not merely an animal. He says, let's try to look at man as an animal. And he says, the moment we start, we start looking at man as an animal, we realize just how odd of an animal he is. Yes. Uh, there's a actually, um, an an atheistic primatologist.
Speaker 2 00:08:24 Uh, and sometimes when I teach this book, I'll sometimes show a, a lecture he gave, um, Robert Sapolsky, but he, it's on the uniqueness of humans. And fundamentally, he doesn't believe that human beings are unique, but he has to, in just doing good primatologist work, he tries to show all the similarities between humans and them. But in every way, he ends up saying, well, if human beings aren't unique, they turn out to be unique here than all other animals. And perhaps even the unique uist, because when you actually try to look at human beings as another animal, they just turn out to not fit in that thing. And he, and then he does the same thing in some ways with Christianity. If you begin with the assumption, Christianity is just another religion, it's just another thing. It's just another attempt of human beings to make sense of the world.
Speaker 2 00:09:13 But then all of a sudden, when you look at Christianity as just another religion in the world, all of a sudden you realize it just doesn't fit right. Yeah. Uh, and so I think in that way, it's kind of like he, uh, it's almost like that movement in judo where you take the opponent's energy Yeah. And you receive it, and that's what makes the other person fall. So he says, let's try to assume. And because, uh, in a way Wells has the easier position he's trying to knock down, the established view of human beings are distinct from animals, and Christianity is distinct. Uh, so maybe if we could just kind of with that in mind, talk a little bit about the first part, right. The creature called Man, how does he try to help us to see human beings as genuinely unique?
Speaker 0 00:10:01 Well, actually, again, you, you mentioned judo juujitsu, that you take the weight of the assailant, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> and use that weight against them. That's exactly what he does. Because in, in the first chapters, which one of my favorite chaps in the book, the man in the cave mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he says, well, let's be scientific about this. Let's just look at the evidence. Right. Let's not take any presumptions, any prejudices mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the first thing he says, well, the people that call himself scientific are actually the prejudiced ones. And then he talks about how do they, how do they talk about this? My mystical person we'd ever met called the caveman. Yeah. You know, and they assume that basically he was, uh, some sort of b brt, some sort of beast who beat his wife over their heads. Uh, and, and then when, when he got fed up with her and got himself a new wife, who he then also beat over the head, uh, and he says, what happens when we actually go in the cave?
Speaker 0 00:10:48 Do we see, you know, a a a neat pile of, of female skulls or neatly cracked like eggs? Do we see that? He said, no, we don't see that. What do we actually see? If you go into the cave for actual scientific empirical evidence, what you see is art. You see cave paintings. And Justin's trained as an artist, said, they're not just cave paintings, good cave paintings. The sense of movement in the animal was swinging his head round to, to look behind him. He said, this is, this is someone who, who obviously seen and wondered at the beauty of nature, and then wanted to render it through an act of creativity, you know? And he, and he says, art is the signature of man. Mm. You know that we are not just creatures, we are also creators.
Speaker 2 00:11:31 Yes. And I, I sometimes when I've, uh, taught everlasting, man, I've shown pictures, and you can actually do this, but they have cave paintings from all over the world. Most of them, they tend to think were, came from about at least 30,000 years ago. Some of them are more recent, maybe seven or 10,000 years ago, and really all over the globe. Right. And all over the globe. And they're paintings. Yeah. Paint animals, they paint human beings. They paint other things. They're clearly, I mean, I don't know. They're, they're like, they're these expressions and certain, and, and you can also, by the way, you can look at figurines in this same time period between something like 20,000 years ago to 45,000 years ago. As soon as human beings kind of exist in the world, they create figurines that are art. Right. And then they paint art.
Speaker 2 00:12:16 Yeah. So we have Right. Human beings, as he puts it right. Are like, human beings basically paint things, whereas like, you know, animals don't. Right. Animals might build a nest, but they just keep building that nest and build that nest. And they don't really build the same nest they've built. Right. Forever, but human beings Right. Have this kind of art. It's, it's, it's his way of just, if you look at the evidence, you see what, in a way the church would later call the Imago Day, the image of God and man from Genesis and from the New Testament, that human beings, again, right, as you put it, are not merely created. They're not merely creatures as are all animals. And they are that certainly, but they're also creators. Art is the signature of a man. Uh, so that's, I think a really, just once you begin to see that, you begin to think, wow, there's something really unique there. And that's, in a way, all the tradition was ever saying, uh, when human know Aristotle or others called human beings. Right. A rational animal. Yes. An animal, but an animal with logos, with capacity for reason and imagination and creativity. So how does he go from there then to kind of develop this idea of kind of the uniqueness of, of human beings?
Speaker 0 00:13:30 Well, I mean, so first we, that art is signature of man. So imagination, you mentioned the imago day. So the imagination as the mark of the imago day in us mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. That we are not merely the creatures also about laughter. You know, laughter is a signature of man, other animals. Don't la laugh. What, what, what's necessary for this, first of all, for, for laughter, you know, we have to have a, a, a connection to reason, and then we have to see the absurdity of, of reason when it's, when it's breached. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and then we respond to that with something which you call laughter. So that what he's trying to show is that that man is not another animal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and then we have the development of religion as part of man's search for meaning. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And also search for beauty.
Speaker 0 00:14:16 And again, this is this trione splendor of the good, the true and the beautiful. Right. So, so the understanding of virtue, the understanding of, of moral goodness or love the understanding of truth, logos, reason. Yeah. And, and then also this, this, the seeing of the beauty in, in things, uh, and also the wanting to do the beauty in things, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So not just to see the beauty of a sunset, but wanted to recreate the beauty of the sunset. Oh. Seeing the beauty of a, I mean, we have, I have in my office a cave painting of a rhino OSUs. Yeah. And ironically, and paradoxically, it's there as a, as a reminder to me, me when I walk into my office of the everlasting man. Yes. Right. The art is the signature of man mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is not just a rhino OSUs. Yeah. This is man's depiction. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> of the rhino
Speaker 2 00:14:59 Osso. Yeah. So maybe then think seeing how that, if that were, if that's present in the earliest, then as society develops, civilizations develop, you, you have a con ongoing development of art and imagination and reason. Right. From, and, and I think even I remember, uh, reading something like even a National Geographic or something where it was showing that often early societies, the more, every time you see an early society, like evidence from an early civilization, there's always some kind of temple, some kind of center of worship. It's not so much that we became civilized and then invented religion to try to control society. It's that we were religious. Right. And then formed societies Yeah. Around something. Right. And so you have that idea that human beings continuing to be artful. Right. Uh, and develop and express these views about themselves and the world and the source of the world in these great stories, in great myths, in great architecture. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:16:06 The, i the idea that there is a transcendental reality, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> a supernatural reality Yeah. Is something which is, is far back, if you know. And yet the other thing is the important part of this book we need to remember Yeah. Is that Chester said, basically says, you know, the thing about pre-history is not that it doesn't exist, this is that we, we don't know it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So for instance, do we know that cavemen lived in caves? No. <laugh>. If they, if if they lived in wooden houses, the wooden houses would long go have perished. Mm-hmm. The only things left is the cave. Perhaps the cave was the art gallery, you know? Sure. We don't, we don't know. Yeah. So he said, but what we do know is the oldest civilizations that we know about are civilizations. Mm-hmm. Right? Which means that they've been around for a long while.
Speaker 0 00:16:46 You know, as far back as we go with the history we've got, we talk about, about, uh, civilizations that have already in the process of possibly of decay. And so actually Tolkin takes this up. Oh, yeah. You know, there's a connection between tolkin. Chess. Chess was a huge influence on Toki. So, you know, in Tokis imaginative world, middle earth, right? Yes. It's taking place so long ago. Well, there's not nothing. There's just things we've forgotten about mm-hmm. <affirmative>, while the whole idea that if, if, if humanity's been on the planet, let's say for 500,000 years Yeah. And we only know about the last 30 or 40,000 years mm-hmm. <affirmative>, well, there's, you know, there's whatever the mathematics is there, 450,000 years mm-hmm. <affirmative>, where we don't know what was happening mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because time has, has removed the evidence mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> doesn't mean that wasn't also possibly, perhaps, please God. Part of the fic vision is being able to see the story of man in its fullness and not in a fragmented gro c sense, which we see it, but Chesterton's insisting no. That, that, that wells' outline of history and an atheistic outline of history is based upon an ignorance of the full picture.
Speaker 2 00:17:46 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then, um, not only, only ignorance, but an assumption Yes. That it's developing in a linear way. So it's, it, it's, it's getting better over time. It's getting more civilized. And in a way we don't have any reason to, uh, suppose that it hasn't been civilized in a way since human beings. Right. Exactly. Existed. They've been talking and they've been doing other things. And we certainly have certain monuments and these sorts of elements. There's
Speaker 0 00:18:12 Some, there's also, the other assumption, I think, is that pieces of the jigsaw puzzle, which are missing, don't exist mm-hmm. <affirmative>, in other words, that, that, that this scientist understanding of history based upon the, the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle we have mm-hmm. <affirmative> and trying to, trying to de make a whole picture from the pieces when actual fat, the missing pieces are as important Yeah. Yeah. As the pieces we can actually see. And you have to accept the absence of evidence as part of the overall picture. Sure. Otherwise, you're, you're, you're trying to construct something based upon an, an inadequate and incomplete understanding of
Speaker 2 00:18:45 Things. Yeah. And I think what Chesterton suggests, if I hear you correctly, is the idea that each of the jigsaw pieces that we have always bears a definitive, unique stamp of being human. Precisely. Right. It's always aspect of art, creativity, figurines, paintings, temples, worship. Yeah. Worship, uh, like st you know, big stones that get moved around for purposes. We may not understand what they were for, but they were clearly, I mean, they, they, they weren't merely to get food. I, I don't, you know what I mean? They were somehow like human beings were doing something very unique. And so it's not the idea of looking back and saying, we don't really know, therefore, we don't know. It's saying, since we don't really know exactly the linear process, then the Wellsian story is actually just, there's no evidence for it. It's an imaginative portrayal of the progress we wish happened.
Speaker 2 00:19:44 But when we look, we notice that, again, human beings always bear this unique stamp. And in some ways this is right, the common sense view that human beings are unique, that our language, our logos. Right. The mere fact that we sit around and wonder how we are different and whether or not we are different from other animals, but it's unlikely. Right. Whether or not other animals sit around and try to figure out whether or not like they are different from us. So one thing I wanted just to kind of, so I think a lot of people when they, when they try to look at kind of the uniqueness of human beings, they go immediately to morality. Right. And they wanna go immediately to the moral law. And it, it seems to me that what Chesterton is doing here is he ultimately is getting to that our capacity to have art, to have wonder, to laugh. Right. Is all eventually a sign that we fundamentally are moral and responsible beings before something greater than ourselves. Right. But could you say a little bit about, like, one, how does he eventually get to, to this understanding? And secondly, maybe what's the wisdom in, in the fact that he doesn't begin with morality, but he begins with cave
Speaker 0 00:20:54 Paintings? Well, yeah. Cause he wants to show, I mean, right at the beginning of the, of, of the book, he, he begins with, uh, a philosophical statement that basically that, uh, even the philosophers distinguished three things that they, everybody accepts is a mystery that we don't know the answer to the origin of the universe. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, whatever, you know how nothing becomes something. Yeah. Right. We don't know how that happened. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then how this inanimate something became life.
Speaker 2 00:21:20 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:21:21 That somehow life, whatever that is, which is a mystery, enters the cosmos. And then this thing called man mm-hmm. <affirmative> that can actually think about life and what life is and can think about beauty, can think about goodness and truth, how he came in. And then of course, that the, then the focus is, okay, well we, we, we, we have to embrace free mysteries, even if we're atheists. Cause we don't know the answer. Yeah. And I'm gonna concentrate. History is about, man. So we're not, I'm not gonna a, I'm not gonna try to discuss, you know, the origin of the universe or the origin of life. I wanna talk about, you know, man, who is man and how is he present, uh, throughout history. And that's, so that's, that's his starting point. And the other thing I like about him, he, there's a wonderful part in the book where he talks about the, the wisdom of the elders.
Speaker 0 00:22:07 How, how ancient societies gave a lot of reverence and respect to the elders mm-hmm. <affirmative> beyond the assumption that they, they gained wisdom, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> through experience. And he talks about, you know, that, that this is a much healthier, and that's what he talks about tradition. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and what have you, as he does in orthodoxy about, you know, the democracy of the dead. That being willing to listen mm-hmm. <affirmative> you to the experience of, of your elders, and first of all, the living elders, but also the, the heritage, right. Of centuries. But he says that compared to modernity, whereas, you know, they used to worship the old man. Right. Modernity, worships the strong man. Right. And bear in mind that chess is rightness the 1920s, uh, we have Lennon and Stalin, we have Mussolini. Yeah. We have the rise of the Nazis mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and this will devise from philosophy such as Nisha with, you know, the Uber mench, the Superman.
Speaker 0 00:22:58 So this worship of the strong man, he says, is this, is this progress to worship the strong man mm-hmm. <affirmative>, no over the old man, over the elder, you know, and, and what's more barbaric, you know? And, and, and then he talks about what, let's go back as far as we can as regards to the literature of the West. He talks about Homer mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he says that the, all the sympathy in, in, in the Iliad is for not for the strong man, know, not for Achilles, you know, it's for the underdog, it's for Hector. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and, and Hector's the hero. Right. Not the strong man mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But the virtuous the man who's the man who's defending his family and his people. Yes. Yeah. And for, for something which is not his fault, he didn't elope
Speaker 2 00:23:35 With Hello, it's his brother's fault. It's it
Speaker 0 00:23:36 His brother's fault. You know,
Speaker 2 00:23:37 He's willing to die, and he kind of becomes the hero. And Achilles is somewhat right. Achilles heel is not Achilles heel. Achilles heel turns out according to the I to be his wrath. Exactly. His anger. Exactly. So it's a great story up to his pride. Yeah. About, like, about the dangers of prideful anger and, and what happens when we give into that. Yep, exactly. Um, and you're right. And so it's, you're right, the, the kind of wisdom of these ancient tales as opposed to merely, uh, right. You know, the stronger, the newer, the better.
Speaker 0 00:24:11 Yeah. So where, so where, so where is the, where is the timeless wisdom be found in the oldest work of Western literature? Basically, the id, uh, or in the ideas of musan and coal marks and the, and the, and neat show and the worship of the, of the strong man, and who's the more barbaric, I mean mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Is, is, is Hitler, uh, civilized or is Hitler the barbarian? And Hitler is the product of enlightenment philosophies.
Speaker 2 00:24:33 Yes. Yes. And with that idea of, um, the outline of history, then in a certain sense, the, the narrative of progress at first we're so used to it, it seems, um, probably, I mean, think a lot of people just think it's true, and then it seems somehow fitting. But if we're constantly progressing, then that means we are at the pinnacle of history. So we get to kind of pridefully, reject all of the wisdom of our elders. Yes. But we do it knowing that the next generation will reject all of us. Right. So we also, it, it does create a kind of right destabilizing force within society. And I think, uh, Chesterton is able to say that it, right. It actually then means that human beings we're, we're not really, we're not really part of one family or even almost one race, because over time we're becoming more evolved, so we can have disdain towards the past. Uh, but that also then puts us in a perennial adolescence. We never really get to grow up. Right.
Speaker 0 00:25:34 Well, you think about that, and, and, and, you know, something was not only on chests radar, philosophically, but not scientifically, things like transhumanism. Right. Uh, and, and philosophically, people who believe in transhumanism will never blown up. Right? Yeah. They don't want, they don't want to embrace the cross. They don't want to understand the wisdom they got through suffering. What they want is to worship a perfect future. And there's a real irony here of courses. Yeah. That, you know, if you believe in God, you can see the futures being present to God. So the future exists. Yeah. Right. If you believe in God, if you don't believe in God, the future doesn't exist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So to worship the future Right. Is to worship a God that doesn't exist mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But you're doing it because you are projecting onto the future. Yeah. And chest talks about this, I think in the everlasting man, he said that the, the, the future is, is enticing because the future is something we imagine. Mm-hmm. So it can be a blank wall Yeah. On which we can write whatever we like.
Speaker 2 00:26:27 So when we worship the future, in a way, we're worshiping ourselves Exactly. Our own, own projections of our egos. Exactly. Uh, so let's, let's take a break and then we come back. I wanna look at the second part of the Everlasting Man. Right. Uh, the Man called Christ.
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Speaker 2 00:27:14 Hey, welcome back. Now, we, uh, talked about Chesterton's Everlasting man as really having two major parts in responding to Wells's outline of history, uh, in which everything is just kind of an amorphous evolutionary progression. Chesterton says that the more you, we look at human beings as merely another animal, the less like another animal they appear. And then he's also says that the more we look at Christianity as just another religion or just another myth or philosophy, the less like another myth or philosophy it appears. So can you tell us a little bit about Right. The second part, um, right. Of when he calls it the man called Christ, and it begins with this beautiful line, you know, God in the cave Yeah. As he began the other one man in the cave.
Speaker 0 00:28:07 I think if I, I can't do better than Chesterton. Sorry. If you permit me to read, please. So, right, right at the beginning, um, of the second part of the book, uh, the, the, the chapter of the God in the cave said the second half of human history, which was like a new creation of the world, also begins in a cave. And then lemme skip a few lines. God also was a caveman and had also traced strange shapes of creatures, curiously colored upon the wall of the world. But the pictures that he made had come to life. Uh, again, that's, that's the divinity of Christ born in Bethlehem, in a cave as being at the center of the cosmos, center of time, center of space, center of creativity, center of creation. The answers the question, uh, the two other questions. The, the, the philosophical mysteries that Chester and Enunciates at the beginning, right. That e everybody agrees, all philosophers, atheists, and otherwise, there's a mystery about the, the, the creation of the cosmos. There's a mystery about the creation of life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and there's a mystery about the creation of man. Right? Yeah. And here we have God who becomes a man mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who also created the cosmos and brought it to life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this person is the meaning of history, because he's the creator of history. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:29:24 Uh, and I, I love the way that when, uh, Chester introduces Bethlehem, and it goes back to, uh, write the story of Christmas and Bethlehem, he looks at three, maybe, I mean, three major characters in the story. Of course, the primary character, right. Is Jesus Christ. And, uh, and, and Mary and Joseph. Right. You know, God, and, and, and this, this whole thing. But then he looks at the three people who encounter him, right. First, the shepherds who represent in a way, right, the myth makers, the followers of myth, the followers that God might dwell somewhere in particular. Uh, then he looks at the Magi, the wise men who become the philosophers who are trying to reason and study to try to find ultimate meaning and purpose. And then of course, he mentions Herod, right. That basically the enemy who doesn't come to, uh, with the wonder of the, uh, shepherds or the kind of the, the worship or appreciation of the magi, but with the right hatred of the enemy, Herod, who comes and tries to write slaughter when, and does actually ex order the execution of, um, right. Of, of, of the holy innocence. So what, how does this, in a way, help us to understand how unique Christ and Christianity is?
Speaker 0 00:30:49 Yeah. I mean, this is Chesterton at his best because what, what what Chesterton's doing there is encompassing the three aspects of who we are as human beings in relation to Christ, uh, homo at all. Right? The man on the journey. Yes. Now, if you were on a journey, then our lives are, are a story, a quest, a pilgrimage, right? Yes. All of the, all of these things that stories are made of, right? You, again, I go back to talking. I mean, the, the, the hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, it's a quest, right? You have to go out on a journey. You have to face the pebbles. So that's Homo Vito, they're the shepherds, right? They're the, the myth makers, the storytellers, the one those who understand reality in terms of story. Then you have the mad joy Andros, right? He, who according to Plato, at least etymologically, he who turns up in wonder right? Looks up at the stars, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, the philosophers. So this is reason. So Andro pos and Homo Vito, but then the other aspect of who we are is homo purpose, proud man. The man who refuses to be Homo Vito, the man who refuses to look up is he's too busy looking at him himself. Right? And, and this is the enemy throughout history. So if it's like the good, the bad, and the beautiful, right? And that this is who we
Speaker 2 00:31:55 Are.
Speaker 0 00:31:55 Yes. Uh, and, and this is how we respond in our very different various facets to the coming of Christ.
Speaker 2 00:32:03 And in a simple way, by telling that very story, by recording in a way, the facts of history, we begin to see something strange. Christianity doesn't appear as another myth or as another philosophy, but it appears as the reality for which the myth makers were, were seeking. Seeking Yes. The, the truth that the philosophers were seeking and the good that we all resent. Right? And so you kind of see then here, Christianity's actually, uh, I think, uh, Fulton Sheen, uh, in a different way. But he, he summarizes so well when he looked, looked at Christmas on a homily, he said that all other religions and, uh, philosophies are basically, uh, mans search for God. Yeah. And in that way, they contain many truths. Right? Right. Many partial truths, uh, either in terms of great myths or great philosophies, right. And, but in Christianity, there's something different. It's not mans search for God. It's God's search for man. Yeah. And I think Chester's able just to, by ne looking at the story, you realize how unique Christ is from his birth.
Speaker 0 00:33:08 Yeah. And, and, uh, what his uniqueness does to the history that he enters. So again, we, we talk about the theologians will tell you that, that, that Christ, the gospel fulfills the covenant. You know, the make it completes the Old Testament brings the Old Testaments into completion, into
Speaker 2 00:33:28 Fulfillment.
Speaker 0 00:33:28 Yes. Yes. Um, we see how, how Augustine baptizes Plato, we see how Aquinas baptizes Aristotle, Christ baptizes the Old Testament mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but, but Christ also baptizes the Iliad and the Odyssey. Mm-hmm. And the, I need he baptizes myth because he, the story is also fulfilled in him. Yeah. Right. So e everything is brought to gloriously baptized fruition in the coming of Jesus Christ. In the incarnation. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:33:58 In this book, he describes, uh, Chesterton describes the creed as a key. Right. And I think often in his age and in our age, we think of the creed as something that constricts. Right. Uh, and he describes it as a key, uh, in part because he says, right. It has a def definite shape. Right. A key that is, um, shapeless won't work. Um, he says, and in some ways the shape is arbitrary. It could have been different. And, and, and, and, and thirdly, he says, the key opens a door. Yeah. Right. And, and all it matters is if we think we're in a prison, then to discover a key that opens the door to get out is pretty exciting. Yeah. Uh, so could you say a little bit more about Chester's understanding of the creed as a key?
Speaker 0 00:34:38 Yeah. Well, I, first of all, this was very important on my own path mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this, this particular passage from the everlasting man. Because the understanding that the complexity of the, where the apostles creed at first and then nice, uh, subsequent creeds, and they become more complex, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they become more complex because they have to, uh, unlock problems. Right. So, and I think Chesterton says that a stick will fit any hole. Right? Interesting. So, so simplicity is, is not a good thing, but only a key, a a specific key fits the specific lock. And the creed is the key that unlocks reality. And now when I mm-hmm. When I saw that, now all of a sudden the complexity of, of the Christian creed of Catholic dogma mm-hmm. <affirmative> of the catechism mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, all began to make complete sense. Of course, you have to have, uh, a dogmatic theology cuz the dogmatic theology is the key that unlocks reality.
Speaker 0 00:35:29 And he, I think he a wonderful thing here where he, in the Everlast man somewhere, he talks about how moderns distinguish between the, the sort of the God of the theologians, uh, and, and the God of love. Right. And he, and it's sort of disdain the trinity as being too mystical and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and he said, well, you know, they don't understand it's the same thing Yeah. As they, because if God has had existence in eternity, and he's not a trinity, you know, before he created anything, who did he love? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And brilliant. I mean, how can God be love? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> if until he creates something, he had nothing to love clearly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, whatever love is the giving, self-giving to, to, to another had to be present in the Godhead itself. You know, so it's is chest and again, at these brilliant best Yeah. Unpacking things that can be very complex and complicated. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:36:16 <affirmative>. Yeah. And I think even first John four that has that great, you know, sounds like, you know, God is, love says basically, this was revealed to us in Jesus Christ cuz God loved us first. Right. So this idea that we fully discover God's love when we see God loving us in Jesus Christ, for God so loved the world that he sent his only son. Right. That all he should believe in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. So we not only see God's love for us in Jesus Christ, but we see God's love for the father's, love for the Son and the Spirit. So we, you know, and, and, and in a way then the idea that you can't have God as love and you don't have God as love, apart from the revelation beginning with Israel and then fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Right. The pagan, the, from a pagan point of view, you can't see the world and get to a loving caring God No. A God that loves me. Yeah. Right. And, and yet now it's like we've kind of having gone up the scaffolding of Christianity to discover a God who loves me in a way, the modern roll wants to get rid of the scaffolding. Right. And wants to get rid of, um, you know, wants to get rid of Christianity, but still maintains some idea that, uh, there's a God in the sky that cares about me.
Speaker 0 00:37:38 But, but irrespective of what I do
Speaker 2 00:37:41 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:37:42 Creating again, falling back on creating God in our own image. If you, if we won't be the I Margo day, we create God in our own image. Mm-hmm. That's why love becomes feeling and, and not rat, cuz you Christian understanding of love is that you have to freely choose to lay down yourself with the beloved as Christ freely chose to lay down his life for us. Right. So, uh, without that then there only, there's only two, two ways of doing things. Right. Yeah. Because right back you mentioned Kane, uh, I think in, in our previous, uh, podcast, you know, that either we sacrifice ourselves for others or we sacrifice others for the self. You know, they, they're the only two choices. Once the choice of pride, the others' choice of humility, which manifests itself in love, and Jesus Christ shows us that. And Chesterton, the Everlast man shows us that
Speaker 2 00:38:25 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and I think Chesterton begins to unpack this in really a beautiful way as he moves forward with who Christ is. And and maybe you can comment on a couple of different themes that you find particularly helpful. Uh, two that strike me are one where he talks about the riddles of the gospel, and there's this idea that Jesus is simple and nice, and the church is mean and harsh. Uh, but he actually seems to say the opposite. And he says, actually Jesus' words are kind of harsh and confusing, and it's the church that kind of softens them so that we can understand them as the whole they were meant to be.
Speaker 0 00:39:04 Yeah. I mean, again, what he's, what he's intent on doing there is to, is to debunk. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the humanistic Christ. Christ is merely the good man.
Speaker 2 00:39:15 Okay.
Speaker 0 00:39:16 Right. A good man as we understand. No, actually, you know, the riddle of the gospel are actually, Christ has lots of things that force you to sit up and take notice mm-hmm. <affirmative> and actually, uh, might be a slap in the face. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and of course the, the, the, the church doesn't, uh, obviously, uh, negate anything Christ says, but the church is the mystical Jesus Christ. Christ hasn't left. Right. Yeah. So the church does have the authority to explicate mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So basically as time goes on, we, we can unpack the gospel because we are living as a, as the mystical body of Jesus Christ with the magisterium, with the authority that Christ has bequeath us.
Speaker 2 00:39:53 Yeah. Because if we were otherwise, just take a line Right. Occasionally here or there out of what, what Jesus says, you know? Right. It, it, it could be very disarming and in some ways Right. Christ, I think it was Dorothy Day who said, right. Christ came to, uh, comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable. And so Right. He says both. Yes. Right. He'll say like, whoa, to you, Pharisees, woe to you scribes. And then at the same time, say, come to me all you who are com, uh, you know, burdened and, and heavy laden. Then, then other thing that, uh, he does, I think that's really is when he looks at kind of what Christ does, he begins to say. Right. It's the strangest story of all I believe. And what, what he seems to be suggesting here is that, again, there's something wrong with the world.
Speaker 2 00:40:35 I I love it. One time I think there was an essay contest or something you might be able to, or like an essay theme where he was asked to talk about, you know, what's wrong with civilization? And everybody was supposed to talk about what was wrong with civilization. And I think he said that he always assumed that Right. As a Christian. Uh, the obvious answer to that was that I am what's wrong with civilization. Yes. Um, and that discovery that there's something wrong with me, that I am, it's good that I exist and somehow the way I exist right now is not in harmony. Yep. And so he talks about this idea that Jesus is the weirdest teacher of all, it's the strangest story because he doesn't come fundamentally to teach, he doesn't come fundamentally to do anything other than in a way he comes to die.
Speaker 0 00:41:21 Yeah. He doesn't come as the strong man.
Speaker 2 00:41:23 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:41:24 Right. He doesn't come as the Messiah of the Jews. He doesn't come as, as, as the, the, the deliverance of an a adult Hitler or Joseph Stalin. No. He comes, you say, to lay down his life self sacrificially mm-hmm. <affirmative> for as the innocent victim, you know, in some sense that again, it's the fulfillment of stories such as, as, as Hector in the iea, it's makes sense of them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's why again, Tolkin who profoundly influenced by Chesterton, as I've said, um, you know, he said that the gospel contains all of the truths of all the myths. It said the only difference is it's the true myth. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's the story, the, the, the, the myth that really happened, right. Is that this, you know, everything we were grappling for in our philosophy, in our storytelling mm-hmm. <affirmative> is fulfilled in the life teaching death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 0 00:42:11 It's the fulfillment of Oh. And it makes sense of it all. We see it through that. But what you said earlier as well, I want to just comment on that is Yeah, please. You know, the, it is a great danger and this is the problem of a so descriptor and, and the multifaceted dimension of Protestantism now is, is that you can take any line out of context and it will mean whatever you want it to mean. That you have to understand the gospel in its integrity and its entirety and understand every line within the context of every other line within, within the gospel. So if you, otherwise, if you just pluck out a come to bring a saw, then Christ is a militarists. Right. You know, you can, you can take one line out and it means not just nothing, it means something diabolical unless you see it within the context of the whole. That's why the teaching authority, the majesty of the church, is so important because Christ assures us that he hasn't left us, he hasn't gone away. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:01 I don't leave you as orphans.
Speaker 0 00:43:02 Exactly. You know, that we know that, you know, what's bound on earth is bound in heaven cuz he's promised us that. And the church has the authority to make sense of the gospel. In other words, Christ has told us the true story. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but the other thing, the true story's still being told mm-hmm. <affirmative>, in other words, that the incarnation continues in the church. And the other thing, again, just get bigger and bigger, that this is, this is just the church militant, the church triumphant part of the story. It's part of the story we don't really understand yet. And to bring CS Lewis in, if we, if we may, all these people are connected, some of the most profound theology I've ever read because I'm a literature person, I'm not a theologian. Yes. Uh, at the, the final, final pages of the last battle when, when Lewis says that, uh, the whole of this life, so the hold of human history, the hold of the, everything we've been talking about here, the hold of human history is like the cover and the title page, the real story has not begun yet. Yeah. That when we, when we leave this story mm-hmm. <affirmative> his story, right. Which is his story, and move into the church, Trump and God willing, he then ch then Lewis says that the rule story hasn't begun yet. The rest is like a, a story where every, every chapter is better than the one before. And it goes on forever.
Speaker 2 00:44:18 Uh, that's, yeah. I I really can't say anything better than that <laugh>. That's just a beautiful, and you, and, and I think this idea that the, you know, if we say the word, oh, the creed is myth. That seems dismissive. But if we say the creed is a story and we think about what is the creed and we think about the apostles creed, I believe in God the Father Almighty maker of heaven and earth. So, well I'm saying something, I'm saying truths that are doctrines, but I'm also beginning to tell a story. So this God who is Father and Almighty, he, he may, he did something, he made heaven and earth. And then I'm gonna tell a story then what happened about his son. Well his son whom I believe in who is equally God. Well he was born to the virgin Mary became man. Right.
Speaker 2 00:45:02 You know, suffered under punches. P he suffered, died. Wait a second. The God becomes man and suffers and dies. Right. This is at the heart of the gospel proclamation that you see in acts you see throughout the letters of Paul. Um, and, but he will come to judge the living in the dead. And, and one thing I've always been attracted to is this idea that when God judges, he restores to those who have lost everything. Right. What they are now freely given. So God, the judge isn't there merely to punish us, but he's there actually to when you've been, if you've had something stolen from you, you want it back. Right. So you go to the judge and you say, give me back what has, what I've lost and what is God give back to us? He gives back to us our sonship. Yeah. Which wasn't only stolen from us, but we sold Right, right.
Speaker 2 00:45:51 For a well a porridge. So this understanding, so he will come to judge, he will come to restore to us all that has been lost. And then I believe in the Holy Spirit. Well, what is the Holy Spirit? Okay. The Holy Spirit is the third person of Trinity. I believe in that the love of the Father and Son. But what has the Holy Spirit done? Well, the Holy Spirit has Right. You know, animates the Holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body. So we have then the whole notion of the church and the sacrament. So Right. And I think it's this false modern separation between stories and truths. Right. Uh, and we realize actually in stories tell the most important truths. Yes. And of our true identities. And
Speaker 0 00:46:32 And the last words of the creed, cuz you, you <laugh> you left out the happy ending. Right? Yes. And life everlasting. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. That absolutely all of it points to life everlasting. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the hap the happy ever after of all good stories. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And now you were quite right to to, to emphasize that. We need to understand that when Chester talks about myth mm-hmm. <affirmative> or talking talks about myth or Lewis talk about myth. Myth means story, not lie. Yes. I mean, I mean you have to, it's very important. Cause the modern world, you know, a myth is some which is untrue. Yes. A story is untrue. No. You know, a story can be untrue. Anything human can be distorted. That's why the true myth, the true story is the gospel which cannot be distorted by us. I mean, we can misunderstand it to, to our own destruction. But the truth, the story itself is true irrespective of what we do
Speaker 2 00:47:18 To it. Yes. And I think it really gives a profound, and I think it's one of the things that Chester helps us to do, is you look at the church with wonder and beauty because you see the story and the reality that the church is unfolding. So in a certain sense that allows us to kind of like the church in like is almost transparent, is a transparent vehicle or instrument through which I see Jesus Christ and what God is doing for me. And that allows him then to kind of, in a certain sense, you don't notice the individual things that churchmen happen to do. Right. Which may or may not be wise or may or may not be prudent, you know, um, you don't have to agree with the church's policy on Covid or the, whether or not they give you a ticket for parking on the grass. You know what I mean? It's like you just, and I think he's able to do that. So it's kind of a strange way in which he's defending the church by helping us to see that the church is really right. The mystical body of Christ, the, the temple of the Holy Spirit through which we begin to discover God and his plan for us.
Speaker 0 00:48:21 In fact, he talks about the paradox at the end there. Yes. About the human dimension of the church. Right. So he had the mystical body of Christ that that which is basically Christ's presence in not just on earth, but in Perrine and in heaven. Right. But we also know that the church itself is within history, a weak, fallible human institution. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the book ends. We though the five deaths of the, of the faith. Right. That many times in history, you think that's it. The Catholic church is dead finished and every single time it's risen again from the dead. So there's something divine in the story of the church. Yeah. That the several times she's died, either, either through corruption from within or persecution from without. And every time she rises again from the dead, that she's like her master.
Speaker 2 00:49:02 Wow. That's really beautiful. Um, maybe, you know, before we close, I wanted just to ask you one, uh, final question. You had mentioned to me earlier that not only was Chesterton important for Louis's conversion, but uh, joy Davidman whom he eventually married, uh, was also right profoundly impacted by wells and Chesterton. Would you tell us a little bit about
Speaker 0 00:49:24 That? Yeah. This is sort of like a happy ending or at least a happy wave of ending the conversation about the everlasting man. Cuz uh, joy Davidman, when she was a teenage Jewish girl in, in the United States, read HG Welles's, uh, the outline of history and became an atheist as a direct consequence of reading, uh, Welles's outline of history. Now that shows the damaging impact that that book had. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But then of course, uh, Lewis becomes a Christian through reading. Chester is the Everlasting Man, which is Chester's response and answer repost to the out outlet of history by wells. Then Joy Davidman reads Seas Lewis after Seas, Lewis has become a Catholic, sorry, become a Christian due to his reading in, at least in large part of the Everlasting Man. Cuz Lewis, as, as we said at the beginning, so I saw the Christian out, out of history laid out before me in a way that made sense. So this was, this was converted Lewis and then Lewis, of course, joy Damon reads Lewis and Joy Davis becomes a Christian. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So indirectly, uh, you know, Chester turned through right in the Everlasting man mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> via precariously. Wow. CS Lewis brings Joy Davis. David went back from the atheism that Wells had seducer towards Yeah. Back or to the fullness of Christian faith.
Speaker 2 00:50:38 Yeah. And, you know, and, and it is kind of course, you know, Lewis's biography that he wrote before he met Joy. David Davidman was, um, surprised by Joy. Yes. And, uh, and then eventually he, he marries a woman named Joy and she discovered joy. And so I think sometimes when we, when we think about Chesterton, one thing I at least want to maybe take away, and I want to just, you, you can, you know, uh, add to this if you wish, but there's a way, when I read Chesterton, I somehow feel, I don't know how to put it, I always feel inspired. I feel like Chesterton has this deep sense of wonder and joy both at the created world and at the joy of the gospel. Like, his work really is, he, he kind of seems to be like, you know, he's an apostle of joy on apostle of gratitude.
Speaker 2 00:51:22 Right. He says we ought to say thank like the fact that I exist, I ought to say thank you. Yeah. And I find that when I read him, I feel somehow like, like I want to become more joyful, more grateful. And that's a really unique, uh, thing. And I think in a way it's partly one of the reasons why I think his writing is effective. He's very good at exposing, uh, like fallacies or erroneous positions, but he does it from a, uh, a point of murth joy. Yes. Laughter Yes. And Thanksgiving. Amen. Great. Well, thank you so much, uh, for being on our show and again, with a book we were talking about today was GK Chesterton's Everlasting Man. Uh, we do have a earlier podcast that we, where we looked at Chester and Conversion. Uh, so if you find this topic interesting, um, you, you may wish to consider that.
Speaker 3 00:52:13 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
