Speaker 0 00:00:00 Essentially, liturgy is how we worship God. This comes out of the virtue of religion. Religion most properly understood is part of the virtue of justice, where we attempt to render to God what is due to God. Somehow worship is coming back into the presence of God, being back in that relationship with God.
Speaker 2 00:00:27 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael dk, and today I am pleased to be joined by colleague and friend, Dr. Daniel Linman. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:41 Oh, thank you. It's good to be here.
Speaker 2 00:00:43 Excellent. And, uh, today we're continuing our series on the Eucharistic Revival, as called by the US Catholic Bishops. Uh, we're actually in already almost completed year one. Uh, we have two more years of this kind of rediscovery of the gift of the Eucharist. Uh, the bishops actually, when they began it, they, uh, went back to, uh, Pope Francis during the beginning of the lockdown around the pandemic, and Pope Francis did a right in St. Peter's square that I think was empty. And it was a right of benediction and blessing, right? That, uh, what do we need? We need the presence of Jesus, right? And, and so he did this in such a rich way, and I think that's really what the bishops are wanting us to unpack and digest during this time. And so, I thought it'd be great during this episode to really focus on how is it that we understand the Eucharist in the context of the liturgy, and especially within the context of Holy Week, right?
Speaker 2 00:01:48 This beautiful week of Holy Thursday, good Friday, holy Saturday, the Easter vigil, Easter Sunday, the Octa of Easter. Anyway, so how do we understand the Eucharist within the context of Holy Week? That's really the question, uh, that I wanna look at today. And I thought maybe I'd just put before you as a, you know, a seasoned teacher, and I'm sure you're used to lots of questions from students, uh, that if the Eucharist is Jesus, and if it is all that we need, body, blood, soul, and divinity, right? Why not just receive the Eucharist? You know, I like, why do we have to go through kind of long masses? Uh, why do we go through long days of masses and, uh, all these kind of liturgies when it would seem that, you know, we could, I mean, not, not, not to be crass, but you'd almost just have a, a drive-through, right? Right. You go through the church, you drive through, it's nice and fast, it's convenient. The church has never done this, right? So why,
Speaker 0 00:02:49 Yeah. Well that's, uh, yeah, that's, I think that's a really great question. Especially in light of the context of Covid. I feel like there was a little bit of that going on where you kind of did mass on TV at home. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yes. And then you, you know, those who were lucky enough got to go somewhere to receive, you know, communion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, you know, that's all you did. Um, so that's, uh, I think that's a great question. And I think the, the short answer is that the purpose of the Eucharist and indeed the purpose of our lives is to worship God. And that it's, it isn't just about receiving Jesus, it's about offering the highest act of worship. That's the whole, that's the context in which the Eucharist has to be understood. There's a lot to the Eucharist. It is the source and summit of our life. And so there's lots of different ways to analyze it. And, um, if you kind of lose sight of any one of them, you're kind of missing out on what its purpose is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think it's probably helpful then to talk about the liturgy and just what is liturgy as a whole. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:03:56 So why don't you start there? What is, what is liturgy? What does that word even
Speaker 0 00:03:59 Mean? Yeah. That's, uh, essentially it, liturgy is this, liturgy is how we worship God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's the, the rights that we do, the, the practices that we do to worship God. However, we may, may do, and this is, this is, this comes out of the virtue of religion. Religion most properly understood is part of the virtue of justice, where we attempt to render to God what is due to God. And that's a fundamental human longing and disposition, uh, to offer God, right? Worship. What's wonderful, starting with, with Moses, is that God laid out a particular way in which worship is supposed to happen. And then that's, that's what guides us from there. But as we know in the Old Testament, the Old Testament liturgies were what we call shadows of the New Testament realities. And the Old Testament worship was there to set up our understanding of what was to come, to really put this in context.
Speaker 0 00:05:07 So we, and to understand, we have to understand what worship is. And that's another sort of complicated feature, uh, con complicated question cuz there's a lot of different aspects there. But singer, I think really gives us a, uh, clear window into what worship is by putting it in context of the relationship we have with God originally in Genesis, where everything's in right order. In, in Genesis where Adam and Eve are there with God in the God. And there's even, uh, the, the, you analyze the Old Testament in Genesis one through three. There's much, there's a lot of temple imagery mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. This is, it's up on the high place. This is where men went to worship God in the ancient world, the, the, the precious stones in gems, it's ornate. There's flowers, there's angels present. Um, and even Adam is set up as a priest.
Speaker 0 00:06:03 There's where he is told to till and keep the garden. The Hebrew words can also be translated as serve and guard, which in numbers is, that's a priestly duty. Yeah. So Adam's being set up as a priest, there's, there's this idea of this original harmony with God man's original relationship with God, uh, where everything is in right order. And of course, sin is what does away with this, but somehow worship is coming back into the presence of God, being back in that re relationship with God. Yeah. By offering God what is due, by recognizing our place with respect to God. That's how we, we find our fulfillment. Cuz that's how we were made in the beginning when it was good and then very good. We were made to be in right relationship with God. That means we're made to worship God and that, so that's what we're aiming at in, uh, in this activity of worship. Just sort of Yeah. That's a really fast summary of something I do in like three, four, you know, lectures in class,
Speaker 2 00:07:03 Right? That's right. Yes. And it is wonderful that, uh, you've been teaching a course on the sacraments for our undergraduate, uh, theology majors and other students that's rights, uh, for many years here. And so it's wonderful to be able to sit down with you and, uh, kind of dive in and maybe give, uh, some alumni or just fellow travelers Yeah. A little kind of little window into your course. And, you know, one thing it kind of reminds me of is, I don't remember who it is, but somebody describes man, just not as homo sapiens man, the knower, but Homo Arons.
Speaker 0 00:07:32 That's right.
Speaker 2 00:07:32 Man. The adore and the idea that we will worship something. If we don't worship God, we will worship something else. We will always, we're just kind of a, you know, we're, we're creatures made for worship. And the problem is, is we will either worship the true God, right, or we will worship kind of false gods. Uh, that CS Lewis one time puts in the weight of glory. He says, uh, they will become their, the good things of the earth, but when we worship them as God, they will become dumb idols that will break the hearts of their worshipers. And, and again, I think if we see ourselves as always already worshiping something and those things that we worship are actually breaking our hearts, then the idea to be freed for right worship Yeah. Is so significant. And I think, you know, that you, you were talking about the shadows of the Old Testament worship, and, and, and Ratzinger talks about that idea in his spirit of the liturgy, a wonderful book, uh, where he talks about kind of in the Exodus, we are freed from, in a way, the idolatries of Egypt in order to be freed to worship.
Speaker 2 00:08:40 And, and I think, by the way, it's also helpful to remember that the language of shadows doesn't mean negative facts.
Speaker 0 00:08:46 That's right.
Speaker 2 00:08:47 Like my shadow is my, is mine. Like my shadow's different than your shadow. And so the shadow of Christ in the Old Testament, the, and Aquin will say Right, that the sacrifices of the Old Testament were already orienting the believer to the true God. That's right. They were a rejection of idolatry and a prefigurement of Christ. So they're not kind of merely a shadow. They also were genuine worship, which is important. So therefore, then when Christ fulfills them, he takes them up into himself. That's right. Uh, but maybe if you could just say a word about that sense of, um, the way that in Exodus we're freed, like, so, so that liturgy is not an imposition, but is really a, a, a freedom. Right.
Speaker 0 00:09:33 The, I I love that, uh, quote from, from Lewis, cuz that's exactly right. These idols that break our hearts. Um, but maybe a good way to look at the way we're freeze to look at the, the, the case of the golden calf. Okay. Um, Bratz Singer has a great, great take on that, uh, that I, I really like. So, you know, Moses is up on the mountain Sinai, he's receiving the tin command and she's gone with, the elders are up there and it, um, there, they're, they're sitting in the presence and eating in the presence of God and all these beautiful sort of Eucharistic images already present there. But the people are down, you know, and you know, where is he gone as his this Moses, we don't know what has happened to him. Perhaps he was destroyed by God. And so the people come and tell Aaron, you know, make this calf of gold for us, and they give him gold and they mix this golden calf.
Speaker 0 00:10:27 And he says, here, Israel is the God who brought you out of Egypt. Now there's a couple of ways to take that. And one way it's just they've created a false God in idolatry. They're worshiping this calf as you know, instead of God. That's that. And it seems like at least some of them were doing this. But another way is that this is the Lord. Right. The calf is God, like the Lord who brought them out and they're worshiping God the best way they knew how, looking back to the rights of the Egyptians mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's like, oh, this is how we learned how to worship with from the Egyptians. Let's just do it our way. But you know, there they're going to heaven and bringing it, as it were, they're bringing it down. They're, they're taking command over this divine thing. They, they're humanizing God and they're humanizing divine worship.
Speaker 0 00:11:18 Mm-hmm. So in, in one account mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what Aaron has done is, you know, maybe the worst act of, you know, liturgical abuse and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, biblical history, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it would explain sort of maybe the, there's some different punishments for people. Some people get slaine and some people just have to drink, um, drink the water. Uh, that, or he grinds up the Moses grinds up the golden caf and puts the, puts the in the water and makes him drink it. Um, so the, there's a, what they're being freed from then is from this binding themselves to these, these, well, what in, in the end are demons, right. That are blinding them to the truth. Yeah. And they're being freed to come back to right relationship with God. Yeah. And so when the worship at Sinai is happening correctly, you see all this sort of genesis imagery where it's, oh, man's back in relationship with God, you know, he's back, uh, he's able to dwell in God's presence once again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he's able to, uh, have this harmony. And the, the origin, the idea you that's, uh, Saint Es is brings us up several times. This idea of recapitulation, the order of creation is recapitulated again and again in, in the Old Testament. And ultimately it's finally in the new, but it's recapitulated. And what that means is, man is it's, you're put back in this relationship Yeah. As, as best we can given our circumstances. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:12:45 And of course, it's right. It's not accidental by any means, very providential that, uh, you have the Passover meal, the slaying of the Passover lamb, the offering of the saw Passover lamb, the eating of the Passover lamb as that which freezes real in order to go into the desert, in order to worship God correctly, in order to receive the law and receive the tabernacle God in dwelling and Right. And as we move right into the new covenant. Right. It's, it's at a Passover meal. Yeah. The Passover, I think the, the same Israel light celebration of that same feast is where Jesus institutes last supper. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting in right at the beginning of the document that the, uh, bishops wrote, uh, about the Eucharistic revival, uh, this is what it says. They begin with, at the mass of the Lord's supper, celebrated on Holy Thursday, the priest praise these words.
Speaker 2 00:13:45 So he is the true, eternal priest who instituted the pattern of an everlasting sacrifice and who was the first offer himself as the saving victim, commanding us to make this offering as his memorial, as we eat his flesh that was sacrificed for us. We are made strong as we drink his blood, who was poured out, that was poured out for us. We are washed clean. And then they continue the words of the liturgy on the night. The church commemorates, the institution of the Eucharist speaks to us of the mass as the re presentation of Christ's unique sacrifice on the cross, the reception of Christ truly present in the sacrament of the Eucharist and the marvelous effects of communion. And those who receive this gift, they actually use that kind of as the whole, uh, the sacrifice, the presence and the communion, which becomes the structure. Uh, but so how could you then help us move from say the right, you know, the, this Old Testament imagery of being reordered, reentering, genesis, uh, le letting go of false visions of God and false visions of worship, uh, to now turning into the right, into the new covenant at the, at the Lord's Right. Last supper. Right on Holy Thursday. Why is, why is that really necessary to understand what, what Christ is doing, uh, on holy Thursday?
Speaker 0 00:15:04 Yeah, I think that's, um, maybe a, a good way to go into that first is just think about sacrifice. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and what sacrifice is and really is, ends up being the heart of worship again, following a, in a ratzinger analysis. So the heart of, if sacrifice is the heart of worship, and worship is right relationship with God, and you see what is happening in sacrifice, it's, it's not the destruction of animals that God delights in. That's not mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he says that many times. Right? Yeah. Um, but what it is, is what seems formal is the recognition of God's sovereign over all things that you're, there's this submission to him in this way. What's also seems important is, uh, again, going back to Genesis, being in right relationship with God, man was dwelling in the promise, if you sin, you were going to die.
Speaker 0 00:16:01 That was the promise. Yeah. So being, coming in God's presence, and sin means death, means your death. And then you say, well, nobody died in, in Genesis. Uh, so that, that seems problematic when you say, well, there's a few answers to that one. It's like, well, there's spiritual death. That's what we're talking about. Or two, they'll, they'll eventually die before they weren't. And I think those are true answers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But what's interesting is there is actually death in Genesis. There is, uh, and it's, it's kind of hidden. You don't see it. But God takes the skins of animals and cloth Adam and Eve. And this is, I think, a beautiful line and it full of rich meaning going back to like ancient rabbinic readings of it. But if God has taken the skins of animals, unless he's extraordinary and being extraordinarily cruel, usually you slay the animal.
Speaker 0 00:16:49 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So an animal has died to cover Adam and Eve with the skins of animals. Well, what has that done? If you, if we recall the effect that we see immediately after they sin Adam and Eve, they say they realize they were naked. Right. And then they were ashamed. So the, the skins cover over the effects of their sin. So you see simultaneously the achievement of animal sacrifice and its limitations. The achievement is God allows this animal to, as it were, die in place of Adam and Eve. And they, uh, so there is a death that's required. There's a shedding of blood that's required in, in their place, but it cov in their, in their, and by this, it's able to over cover over their sins. But there's still a problem. Right. There's the problem is still within. Yeah. They still have. And so, you know, they'll have to make this sacrifice again,
Speaker 2 00:17:43 Hard nakedness. We cover our vulnerability. Exactly. Our woundedness, our shame, uh, right. But the shame remains. Exactly. Uh, and exactly. And in that sense, we are, uh, right. The sacrifice is, is helpful, um, but incomplete.
Speaker 0 00:18:01 Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:18:02 Uh, and so, you know, perhaps then you could, like right when John the Baptist in the gospel of John sees Jesus Right. Tells his apostles, behold the lamb of God. Yeah. He identifies Jesus as the lamb of God. And I know you've, uh, spoken about and, uh, a lot of understanding of how Jesus speaks about his own, our Yeah. Um, right. How, what's the relationship between Christ as the Lamb of God and then Christ's our Yeah. In maybe the gospel, John, but really just in the whole life of the liturgy.
Speaker 0 00:18:35 Yeah. That's, for us, I think that's, uh, crucial. And that's a great point to point of departure, because the traditionally, the, the animal skins that Adam were clothed with by, you know, the rabbinic tradition, ancient Jewish tradition, is there were lambskins.
Speaker 2 00:18:50 Oh,
Speaker 0 00:18:51 Okay. So this idea that the first sacrifice in all of scripture was done on behalf of man by God mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it's the sacrifice of a lamb in, in their place. And then you have, of course, the Passover lamb that you, you spoke of before, and now we have John pointing the Lamb of God. So there's a, that's a term that's laid in with meaning. Um, that's also helpful to understand <laugh> in light of the Old Testament, again, the sacrifice of Isaac, the <unk>, the binding of Isaac, where afterwards Abraham, when Isaac's not slain, Abraham, Abraham says God will provide himself the lamb. Yes. And the Hebrew is actually ambiguous there. Right. Because it's, he's gonna, he himself is gonna provide a lamb, or he's gonna, he himself will be the lamb. No, nobody would take that, that God would be a lamb That doesn't make any sense until, you know, we have John the Baptist Point. Here's the lamb of God. Yes. And there's a great, and what's interesting is right after, you know, Abraham says that they find a ram mm-hmm. <affirmative> Right. And that, but Rams aren't lambs, <laugh> <laugh>. And so there's this idea, even in Israel, kind of waiting for this lamb of God mm-hmm. <affirmative> this lamb that God's going to provide. So when John the Baptist is pointing to Christ and saying that this is, there's so much meaning, uh, that's implied. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:20:06 Of course. Even in Isaiah 53. Right. The suffering servant, the Messiah will be like Right. A lamb before its shears. Right. And so, right. Clearly, you know, the Old Testament is looking for a, a lamb That's right. That, that is somehow seen but not seen. That's right. Right. Yeah. That's
Speaker 0 00:20:24 Right. And so, in the context of the gospel of John, you do, you encounter this, this hour, and it's a very mysterious thing. The first time you hear it is in the wedding piece of Cana there in chapter two, where our lady asks, uh, our Lord to, they have no wine. And then he says, woman, what does this have to do with you? And, uh, you know, and me, my hour is not, not yet come very mysterious. There's a lot going go into there. I'm gonna resist doing that <laugh>. But, um, the, it's a very mysterious hour, but it has something to do with a wedding. And in fact, death that's, that's hidden there, but it's there. And then you see other instances of the hour coming. A another one is where you see a very mysterious aspect is in John four, where our lord's speaking with the woman at the well.
Speaker 0 00:21:08 And he says, you were, you know, she's asking about worship. And he says, you guys worship in Jerusalem, we worship here. You're a prophet. I can tell what is this? What, what are we supposed to do? And, and our Lord says, the hour is coming and now is when true worshipers will worship the father and spirit and truth. So now we have this mysterious hour that's somehow coming, but is also present's able to, and it has to do with worship and worshiping and spirit and truth. And then we have, you know, in chapter 13, the Greeks come and to seeking our Lord. And our Lord says, now has the hour come. Right. So this hour has sort of, is able to be in different places because he'll, he'll also say, Jesus knew that his hour had come later in, in, uh, sorry, that's 12. And then in 13 knew that his hour had come, and it seems to be speaking about the last Supper.
Speaker 0 00:22:03 Mm-hmm. Yeah. But then the hour also seems to be the crucifixion. So, so what is this, this hour? Well, it's, I would argue that it is the last supper. It is the crucifixion. It is the resurrection, sort of all combined in one. And to understand this better, we have to think about the reality of the incarnation. That our Lord is both God and man as man. His actions are bound by time and space, and he's limited in this way, but as God. And he, there's an, as it were, eternal, a temporal aspect to his actions. We have to recognize this is, you know, theand operations, the operations of the Godman. And so somehow it's in virtue of his divinity, then that sort of the reality of the one hour is able to be present in various times and places. And now you're, you're gonna understand, oh, we're not limited to worshiping God in Jerusalem or on this mountain or here, but there's, there's a universality to the worship of God. He's not attached to a time and place. We don't, but, uh, but he's able to be worshiped everywhere in spirit and truth. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:28 And, and there's a fascinating line that shows up, uh, I think at least like five or six times in the New Testament, uh, before the foundation of the world. And you have in Revelation, the lamb slain before the foundation of the world in Matthew 25 in the parable, the sheep and the goats. You have the, uh, that come receive the kingdom that was prepared for you before the foundation of the world. And how could these things that happen in time, especially Right. The incarnation, how could the lamb be slain before the foundation of the world? Well, it's because Right. The person of the lamb That's right. Is eternal, the eternal son of God. Yeah. Who was also though genuinely in time. Yeah. Uh, and, and I think that image of that, the hour of that he is, is, is right the hour of his manifestation, the hour of his, uh, doing the signs and being believed in.
Speaker 2 00:24:22 Right. Right. Uh, the hour of raising Lazarus. Yeah. The hour of the last supper, the hour of the crucifixion, the hour of the resurrection, the gift of the Holy Spirit, that all these are one. And if we can already see that kind of unity in God's action in Jesus's own historical life, and then in a way, all the moments of Jesus' life are somehow united That's right. In his divine sonship, then I think we are already kind of like we're setting ourselves up to understand why we can enter into that same eucharistic hour today Precisely through the liturgy. We're not, we're not repeating Right. What was done. We're not merely kind of remembering we're certainly not sacrificing Christ again. That's right. We are entering into that hour that was on holy Thursday, that hour of Calvary, that hour of, uh, Jesus's resurrection and appearance to the women into the apostles, to his gift of the Spirit. So, uh, let's go ahead and, uh, take a break and, and when we get back, let's talk a little bit more about Right. This actual Right. The Holy Triduum, the three days of this, this great worship of holy Thursday. Good Friday and, and the Easter vigil. Great. Uh, so we'll be right back.
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Speaker 2 00:26:16 Welcome back to the Catholic Theology Show. And today, uh, my guest is Daniel Leman, uh, professor of Theology at Abe Maria University. And we are discussing, uh, the Eucharist as part of this, uh, Eucharistic revival called for by the US Catholic Bishops, specifically in the context of holy weak and the liturgy. And how does the liturgy and holy weak help us to, to understand the Eucharist better, but also how do we in a way understand and enter into right. The liturgy in general of the mass, and then specifically, uh, this beautiful ancient liturgy of, of these three days of holy Thursday, good Friday, and, uh, holy, uh, Saturday and Easter Sunday. So please, uh, you know, please lead us through some of these.
Speaker 0 00:27:07 Sure. As you know, the Trium, there's so much there, there's so, so many ways to consider this. Um, what, what I, uh, suggested is what I'm is that will go, I have three verses that I want to use to help us kind of understand what's going on in those passages or in those, uh, liturgies. Excuse me. So the first verse that I think is helpful for understanding the, uh, holy Thursday liturgy is John 13. One says, Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father having loved his own, who were in the world. He loved them to the end. Hmm. And this idea of the end is going to important. And this, I want us to remind us that the end of man, the tell us of man is purpose. Ah-huh. <affirmative> is to worship God.
Speaker 2 00:28:02 Yeah. So he just doesn't love them until he doesn't. He loves them for a purpose. Exactly. For their purpose.
Speaker 0 00:28:09 Exactly. So, and while in John the explicit, there's no explicit institution narrative, uh, there's a great argument, uh, Micha Stein actually gave a great talk at our con conference showing how, why there isn't an institution narrative, why with John six, it's sort of implied, the Eucharist is implied there, and why John does that, but not getting into that our Lord does institute the Eucharist <laugh>. Yes. Yes. That's a fact. Um, and so thinking about that holy Thursday, liturgy is in, in an a particular way, a time for the church to reflect on this great gift of the Eucharist and all that it implies. Yeah. Right. The whole of our life flows out from the Eucharist. It's the source and summit. So all the sacramental life is ordered to this and flow and comes from this because it is our Lord truly present body, blood, soul, and divinity.
Speaker 0 00:29:06 And reflecting on that, I, uh, I think Thomas Aquinas in the Teia parts, the third part of his summa Theolog, has what I think is maybe the most beautiful thing he's ever written in, uh, question 75, article one, where he is talking about weather crisis in his sacrament and very truth, body, blood, soul, and divinity. And he argues, he makes, he gives three arguments. And the first takes us back to, you know, again, very directly to the conversation we're having previously, where he said that the Old Testament sacrifices were, were limited and were asking for something more. And so there needed to be something, uh, new. There needed to be something added to make the sacrifice complete. So instead of just covering over the effects of the sin, we needed to be renewed from within. And so there's this reality that's made present to us.
Speaker 0 00:30:05 Whereas before we had the sacraments of the Old Testament, the old law pointing to the new, now we have the reality present with us in, in the Eucharist, in, in the sacramental life. Secondly, the second argument, and this I think is, is particularly beautiful, Thomas says essentially that our Lord having loved his own and loved them to the end, he wants to be with his friends. Yeah. And this is, this is the fundamental reality of the, of the incarnation as well as the Eucharist. He's true God and true man. And you can say, oh, well he's gonna be united with them spiritually. It's like, well, but that's good. And that's mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but that's not the way men, not the way humans are supposed to be in relationships and supposed to live out their friendships. When I'm away from my friends, it's painful. I miss them.
Speaker 0 00:31:01 And, you know, the spiritual union is wonderful, but I want them here <laugh>. Yes. Yes. And that, because that's a proper way for friendship to be lived. As you know, this goes back to Aristotle, that friendship is a common life. And so desiring to be with his friends as a man can be with his friends, but he establishes the Eucharist as a way to be truly present with his friends, the disciples, but his friends throughout all generations and in all nations, all places throughout the world, by being able to be truly bodily, uh, present bodily blood, soul, and defended. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:31:36 And it's interesting there too, that I think sometimes we are so maybe quick to want to defend the divinity of Jesus, or want to defend the kind of holiness or the kind of the, the, the divinity of, in a certain sense of the Eucharist or, uh, that we also forget, or, or sometimes we may overlook that body, blood, soul of Christ, our present. Yeah. Christ's complete humanity That's exactly right. Is present now it's present of course, in a, in a, in a risen way. Um, we're not eating his, you know, beard. We're not eating his teeth. You know, obviously, you know, we're, we're all of his complete, you know, physical presence at the right hand of the Father is present in a, you know, in a, in a mode so that he is physically completely present in every mode. That's right. Of, and that's also why we receive it under the appearance of, you know, bread and wine.
Speaker 2 00:32:35 Uh, but in a certain sense, his complete human personality, you know, it's like, like when we see another human being, you're right. It's like we, um, you know, we're excited. We want to give 'em a hug. We, that particular person, you know, sometimes you can recognize the voice of a loved one before you see them, cuz you just know the very timber of their voice. Right. Uh, sometimes I have, I I I can tell which member of the family is walking down the steps because I know that, and the idea that Jesus is a full human being, like he's, you know, he's has a complete human personality, not a human person. Right. That's the only divine person, but a complete human personality with warmth and affection, and he wants to be our friends. That's right. You know what I mean? And, and he says Right in John 15. Right. I no longer call you servants, but I call you friends. That's right. And so, seeing the aspect of the Eucharist as this intimate encounter with our best friend. That's right. Right. Uh, and I think it's just, anyway, a beautiful image that you've drawn attention to, uh, from Aquinas. And it's, it's, it's really helpful. I think the kind of focus on that aspect,
Speaker 0 00:33:36 Even in, in Thomas Aquinas's own life, and there's a story, his, his secretary, you know, brother Reginal would see Thomas in, in the chapel in the middle of the night with his head just pressed against the tabernacle. Mm
Speaker 0 00:33:52 Hmm. And you think of Thomas as a cerebral, you know, this, you know, he's, but no, he wanted to be as intimately, physically close mm-hmm. <affirmative> to our Lord as possible all at all times. And this is, yeah. This is, uh, the, in his own life, he's bearing witness to the reality mm-hmm. <affirmative> that he's teaching us in. Hi. In his written work, there's also a, uh, aspect that the Eucharist said, it is hidden. And, uh, and, and the great hymn, the right, right. Sight, touch, taste, all fail to attain to the reality. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, but hearing alone is, can be fully believed. There is a invitation then to believe in our Lord in the Eucharist. This is, this is in some way a, an this is good for us. Yeah. Uh, that's hard for us to grasp. And that, that that'll, I think I'll come back to that point later, but just, I wanna set us up for that.
Speaker 0 00:34:56 Yeah. But that's sort of the, the good, the holy Thursday we get to revel in our Lord's gift in the, this amazing act of love. But you can't understand holy Thursday without Good Friday. Uh, and that's, and the, and I think John 1930 really brings home the reality of the, of Good Friday and the whole, and the whole of this, when it's talking about our Lord on the cross, his last words, they offered him the vinegar to drink and he says it is accomplished or it is finished. And the Greek, there, um, word, it comes from the word, uh, Taleo, which was word telos, purpose. Right. It's, it's fully accomplished. It's in the Latin, it's, uh, rendered, uh, consummated. Right. It's consoma. It's so, it's not just over mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's not like just finished like I got to the end of the line. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's been fulfilled.
Speaker 2 00:35:52 Yeah. And that was the same word that you mentioned, right. In John 13, one, he loved them to, to the
Speaker 0 00:35:58 End. Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:35:59 So to the tell loss, to the perfection. Now. Right. It is finished. What's the end? What's the perfection? Right. Jesus', death on the
Speaker 0 00:36:09 Cross. And, and that it's not just the perfection of his act, but that's the perfection of all humanity, of the whole purpose of mankind. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, now we can be reconciled to God again. Now we can, the, the lamb has been slain so that we can enter into the Lord's presence. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there has to be a shedding of blood to come into God's presence because of our sin. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, now we have the lamb that was slain, which doesn't just cover over mm-hmm. <affirmative> our sins, but we are, can now be renewed from within, which is why again, we should receive the Eucharist. Is that a reminder that this is an internal cleansing and eternal, uh, rebirth, an internal reforming. And uh, and this is again, the reality of the Eucharist. We are eating, but in fact, by consuming the Eucharist, we're becoming conformed to him. We're not conforming to him, he's us to us. Yeah. That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 00:36:59 He digests us into himself. And, and, and there is that in that beautiful theme too about that, you know, we can sacrifice everything external to us, but we can never sacrifice our own egos. That's right. Our egos are always the agent of the sacrifice. So Right. Jesus does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. He offers his, he doesn't offer his ego cuz he has no ego. Yeah. He has just the pure self of, of love, the pure self that is Holy Son. Yeah. Holy Son in relation to the Father. All right. Which is why Aquinas will say Right. That he offers the satisfaction that Christ makes is out of charity. Right. Right. And so, and I think that also goes back to that beautiful image from, um, you know, the Old Testament in, uh, that sense in which God will take away our hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh.
Speaker 2 00:37:49 Exactly. Anyway, that's really what we have. We have stony hearts that even despite our best efforts to love our neighbor, uh, to love our family members Right. To love even people that love us dearly. Uh, we still have kind of the, I don't know, the, you know, the twinges of, uh, pride of, you know, this kind of, we, we, you know, we can get hurt feelings. Uh, we, we kind of know in our hearts that we don't love them. Right. And we don't love God as much as we would want to. Right. And, and, and Jesus makes that possible for us on the cross. I also think it's fascinating. Uh, we did another podcast, uh, that hopefully he'll come out, uh, soon on with Father Thomas Wein Andy on the Gospel of John, and especially John six. But one of the things that I learned from him that I'd never really noticed before is right after saying it is finished, it is completed, is perfected.
Speaker 2 00:38:34 It, it is consummated Jesus on the cross. Right. John 1931, as you mentioned. Right. It goes to, and he delivered his spirit. Right. Right. And the, the Greek there is also he handed over, it's the kind of it he traditioned the very technical perus or, um, tried in the Latin his spirit, he breathed his spirit, he passed on his spirit. And that's the same spirit in a way that he will give, uh, to the disciples in the upper room and he will give to write his whole church at Pentecost. So, uh, it's this death that is a complete sacrifice. And yet, like he doesn't kind of, he does die, but he doesn't, he, he, the, the spirit of union, the spirit of the son with the father is, is, is is alive. That's right. And, and it's actually enters into human history at that very moment. Uh, and, and, and in a way it's, it's, it's always there now. Right. That, that the sense of Right. We now worship in spirit and in truth that true spirit of Phil, of us kind of suddenly or daughterly trust and love in God the Father, uh, that spirit of sonship in a way that we simply don't have on our own. That's right. But that, that he gives us. But it's at that moment, you know, uh, where, where he makes that ultimate
Speaker 0 00:40:01 Sacrifice. And that's, and then that, that handing for over his spirit, delivering his spirit that is in John, that sets us up mm-hmm. <affirmative> for what happens right after where his side is pierced, and then the blood and water flow forth from side, say more, say more. So, so we worship in spirit and truth, but the mode of worship that we have is still a human mode. And so the, the blood and water flowing from Christ's side is, is always been taught. This is the establishment of the sacrament, the sacramental order, the sacramental worship, the, the, the Eucharist and baptism. Yeah. Most, most especially. And of course going
Speaker 2 00:40:41 Signify him the old, the last Supper as well on holy Thursday. You do have do this in memory of me. So it's not merely what Jesus is doing. Jesus is doing something else. He's being in a certain sense, very kind of, uh, you know, very divine. Yeah. Because Aquinas will say that. Right. God is so powerful that he shares his causality with his creatures. He gives his creatures the dignity of causality. So if Christ is right, offering the complete worship of the Father, and he's communicating it through the bread and wine that are his body and blood, he gives his apostles and the bishops and the priests after him the ability to be kind of instrumental causes. Yes. I mean, certainly not causes simply, but to be instrumental causes for communicating that. So that's right. Right. You have then right at that moment kind of the establishment in some ways right. Of, of, of the bishops, the apostles, the priesthood. Right. And then when you get to the reception of blood and wine flowing, then you have the sacraments. So the sacraments are also ordered to the church. That's right. Right. So we see a whole new kingdom in a way. So the spirit and truth means, uh, the truth isn't intellectually merely the truth is that these sacraments are truly saving. They're That's right. Not a figure of anything further as say the lamb in the Old Testament was a figure of some new
Speaker 0 00:42:15 Future's right. To come. That's right. That's
Speaker 2 00:42:17 Right. Wow. That's so, that's so powerful to see.
Speaker 0 00:42:20 And I, all of that, what that we've said of the sacrifice is Right. And, but we, this is in so many of these things we also cannot neglect, we sort of emphasized the good parts <laugh>. Yes, yes, yes. But we, we can't forget the, the sort of the, the sad or the bad parts of Good Friday. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and I, in death, and this, we can go back to John three to help us understand this, where, you know, just as Moses raised up the serpent, so the son of man must be lifted up. This is very, uh, so what was going on, the reference is to, uh, people were murmuring against our Lord again and in the wilderness, and they, there was a plague of, of serpents that was sent among them. And, uh, in order to be d freed from this, Moses made a, our Lord told Moses to make a bronze serpent un lifted on the staff, and as many as looked on it were healed.
Speaker 0 00:43:18 This is such a curious thing. There's so many things, aspects, you know, why would you, people who have struggled with idolatry, why would you make something that of, of image of a creature and that that's gonna be their salvation? But I think that that's precisely how to understand what's going on there. So the context of John three, there is the, the discussion with Nicodemus. And our Lord says, if I, I'm explaining to you earthly things, and you do not understand, how are you gonna understand heavenly things? The way we ascend heavenly things is by our Lord being lifted up. And he's taking, he's showing us the, the, how these earthly signs are pointing to God the Father. And we, and he gives, by being raised up, he gives us sort of this middle step to get to 'em, which is ultimately this middle step is establishing the sacramental order, which uses earthly things to communicate heavenly realities to us.
Speaker 2 00:44:13 But I think you're suggesting there's one other step. It's not merely lifting up, it's lifting up on a cross. So like how do you Exactly. It's one of the things I've thought about with respect to the bronze serpent is what's he doing when he is lifting up serpent? It's a dead serpent in a way. Yeah. You're showing to a certain look up here. It's kind of, it, it's, it's, it's, it's dead in a way. That's right. And when we look up at Jesus on the cross, we see a, a, a, a, a dead human being.
Speaker 0 00:44:47 That's right. Right. Death. Yeah. And,
Speaker 2 00:44:50 And in a way, what we're doing is saying what, I mean, we worship many things, right. <laugh>, we worship pretty much anything. We'll worship any animal, we'll worship a tree, we'll also worship. Right. Money, football, you name it. Uh, golf. Right. Whatever it is, we will worship it. Anything that we desire. Right, right. Um, you know, uh, you know, anyway, in so many different lusts or things, it's just, you know, we, we, we can worship anything, but fundamentally what do we worship Right. In a way ourselves.
Speaker 0 00:45:17 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:45:18 That's right. And so we have to not only see kind of the dead lamb, the dead 401k, the dead <laugh>, the dead, um, things of the world, you know, the the new carve corvette that we got that gets crashed and we begin to see like, oh, okay. I can't put my hope in that. Right. Uh, I always have the beautiful story by the way of I remember learning about, uh, the, the really powerful idea that so many athletes, by the way, end their careers involuntarily. Yeah. It's really fascinating. Most athletes, whether or not they're in high school or college or professional, they end their careers by an injury. Right. Right. Uh, and and that's a huge sacrifice in a way. Do, what do they have that's higher in those who do Right. Move on and those who don't. Right. So, but when we look up there, we see, like fundamentally we see a they I die, I have to die on that cross. That's right. That Jesus died for me so that I could somehow die. And, and you're right. And that's painful. That's right. Uh, that's not easy in a way to kind of die to ourselves and to kind of look and realize that in Jesus, that death somehow becomes my death.
Speaker 0 00:46:24 Right. We have to the, again, they should look on him whom they have pierce. Yeah. So look in the crucifix becomes the image of sin. Image of death.
Speaker 2 00:46:33 Yeah. That I have.
Speaker 0 00:46:34 Right.
Speaker 2 00:46:34 I have pierced him. Exactly. But I
Speaker 0 00:46:37 Did it. Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 00:46:38 So the way we're meant to
Speaker 0 00:46:40 Discover it, and that's, you know, St. Paul says he be, he who became sin for us. Right? Yeah. This is, uh, it's, it's, so the reality of the,
Speaker 2 00:46:47 The sin offering in some ways is that
Speaker 0 00:46:49 Idea Exactly. You
Speaker 2 00:46:50 Know, the, the offering of ars sin.
Speaker 0 00:46:51 And so we, you look to the crucifix and you see the most terrible thing ever in the history of mankind and the most wonderful thing at the same
Speaker 2 00:47:00 Time, I do wanna make sure, just cuz we're, uh, beginning to kind of run towards the end of our episode. Oh, sure. Uh, say a word or two then about, um, about, you know, like, uh, holy Saturday and the Resu resurrection Oh, so quickly, if you may.
Speaker 0 00:47:11 So we, we have the end of this hour. It's, and we, we think it's all over. And then there's just this, the darkness of holy Saturday. It's always this quiet time on Holy Saturday. And I I went to John 16, seven, this where our Lord says, nevertheless, I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage. Or is it expedient that I go away. So the, the absence of our Lord on Holy Saturday, the fact that the church doesn't offer mass, there's no Eucharist on this day. This is to our advantage. This, this prepares us to come to know him in the new way in which he's in the Eucharist, the way we can, can come to know him in spirit and truth. And that's confirmed in, uh, John 20, when Mary Magdalene encounters our Lord in the garden, he says, don't hold onto me.
Speaker 0 00:48:03 Right. You know, don't nja, you know, don't, don't grab onto me. Don't hold me. Because she wanted to have him have that interaction as they had before. Yeah. But it's a new thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it, and it's a new thing and it's a better thing. It's a harder thing in, in some ways, but it's, it's going to challenge us according to, uh, seeing the fulfillment of the sacrifice, to experience this friendship on a more profound level and to exercise our faith, which is why our Lord instituted the Eucharist. So you can't hold onto me here in this, this bodily time on earth. I'm not that kind of Messiah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. But you're going to have me in the Eucharist. Yeah. Which is more than you can ever enjoy. Right. You every or ever, uh, imagine. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> this, this depth of love that you can have every time our Lord commands us or, or challenges us or questions us, it's always an invitation.
Speaker 0 00:48:57 This is a theme in Gospel John, an invitation to turn to him and say, I don't understand. Help me go deeper, Lord, I believe help my unbelief. Yeah. This is what we're invited to do with the Eucharist. We, we are being challenged, we are being commanded, we are going forward. And it's in, in, in that is the invitation to turn more deeply to him in, in this relationship. And so it's holy sat is supposed to be a challenge that helps us Yeah. Ask the right question. So be in the state of mind that appreciate resurrection
Speaker 2 00:49:27 The resurrection. Exactly. So, and the gift of the Holy Spirit, not according to kind of our old patterns, but according to the new patterns for which Christ has set us free. Uh, I do love one thing about the, uh, holy Triduum, uh, that I I I always remember a teacher teaching me many years ago, uh, but that, it's fascinating. There really just one liturgy right on holy Thursday begins with a sign of the cross right. In the name of the Father and son. You, you begin the liturgy, and then it just ends with the Jesus in the garden. Right. We go with the disciples, and like the disciples, we leave him, and then we show up at Calvary. There's no beginning of the mass or the, the, the, the celebration of the Lord's or, or the, the crucifixion or the mm-hmm. <affirmative> passion of the Lord on Good Friday.
Speaker 2 00:50:11 There's no beginning and really, and there's no ending. And then when the Easter vigil starts, it just starts with candles and light. There's no beginning in the name of the positive. Yeah. But then it ends finally with the name. And so really, that's one long liturgy, but how wonderful that it kind of reforms and retrains us. I had a friend who was, uh, not Catholic, but went to the Easter vigil one time and just was so overwhelmed with the beauty, the love of scripture and the love of Christ, uh, that that was really a defining moment for her being able to, uh, understand in a way, not only with her head, but kind of with her heart, that there was something, you know, deeply true in, in the Catholic faith. Yeah. Uh, I'd like to ask, uh, our, our guest three questions. Okay. So, uh, quick questions at the end. What's a book you're reading?
Speaker 0 00:50:55 Book I'm reading currently, uh, is the, I'm reading, uh, <laugh> several, in fact, um, for fun, I'm reading, uh, the first edition of, or the first book of, uh, uh, collected Jins by Lord Dunny. Hmm. Who's an early 20th century writer who writes all these, it's marvelous short stories that are just charming and, uh, I, you know, it's nice downtime, <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:51:21 That's great. That's great. And, uh, what's a spiritual practice, uh, or something that you do on a daily basis to, you know, stay grounded?
Speaker 0 00:51:30 Well, in addition to the daily rosary, I like to pray, uh, the, uh, liturgy of the hours as often as I'm able. I try to do at least one hour a day. Uh, I'm a, I'm a Benedictine oblate, and so I'm supposed to mm-hmm. <affirmative> pray at least one hour of the Benedict office a day.
Speaker 2 00:51:47 And just as a note, those, it doesn't necessarily take an hour to pray an hour.
Speaker 0 00:51:50 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're observing, you're marking the hour. Yeah. Seven hours. Yeah. Yeah. 15 minutes. Yeah. <laugh>. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:51:55 And, uh, but that's beautiful with the liturgy of the hours. And, uh, what's a, what's an belief about God, uh, that you held at some point in your life that you discovered was false? And, uh, and what was the truth you discovered? And, and, and how did that help you find meaning and
Speaker 0 00:52:12 Purpose? Oh, well, fittingly, the, the one that was most shocking to me was, uh, when I realized I held a heresy about the Eucharist some years ago, <laugh>, you know, I was probably 19, 20 the time, and I was reading, uh, I think it was a cradle of redeeming la It's, anyway, I realized that I, I was aist and I, I, I implicitly held that the bread is really there and, and our Lord is there substantially. And, um, realizing, well, that can't be true, uh, and, uh, as that was made manifest and, and, uh, that the Eucharist was more wonderful than I had realized. And that was a greater act of love, a greater manifestation of divine love than I first realized.
Speaker 2 00:52:53 Uh, well, how, how fitting. Yeah. Uh, so thank you very much, uh, Dr. Linman, uh, for being on our show. Thank you. Uh, for people who may be interested, we have, uh, several other episodes on, uh, dedicated to the Eucharistic Revival, and thanks again. Uh, so we really appreciate your being
Speaker 0 00:53:09 On, on our show. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:53:10 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
