Speaker 0 00:00:00 Jesus says here in John, the reason we have to eat his flesh and drink his blood in order to have eternal life is because what we are in communion with is the risen Jesus, because we abide in the risen Jesus. He who is the resurrection and the life we have eternal life.
Speaker 2 00:00:30 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Avi Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Dnet, and today I am thrilled to have on our show Father Thomas Wein, Andy, uh, Capuchin Franciscan fryer, uh, who, uh, has, uh, taught, uh, theology, uh, at, at Oxford at, uh, gray Fryers who, uh, served the, uh, us C C b, the, uh, the US Catholic Bishop's Conference, uh, as a theological advisor, uh, for almost a decade. And, um, and who has written, uh, just so many books, and I think for, uh, so many of us who were studying theology in, in the nineties, uh, and, and following, uh, was really one of those just wonderful theologians who, who remained faithful, uh, to the tradition to scripture, uh, to the church. And one of the beautiful things, uh, for those who may not be familiar is that Father we, I think, has had this incredible love of both systematic theology and biblical theology who has really never allowed this divorce to happen. And so, uh, one of the things that, uh, he's done recently is he's written a three volume series on Jesus becoming Jesus, uh, one volume on, on the synoptic gospels and two whole volumes on the Gospel of John. These are all, uh, published, uh, by, uh, c u a press, uh, for those who are interested. Uh, but you wanted to, uh, welcome you to the show, father.
Speaker 0 00:01:57 Well, thank you. It's an honor to, to be with you today. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 00:02:01 Great. Well, thank you so much. And, you know, we're doing a series of, uh, podcast episodes on trying on the Holy Eucharist, right? Uhhuh <affirmative>, uh, as part of the bishop's calling for us to have a eucharistic revival, so to deepen our understanding of and our devotion to Right. Really Christ President in the whole Eucharist and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you've written a whole two, uh, books on the Gospel of John, and I think when a lot of people think about the Eucharist, right, if they think a little bit about it, uh, their minds often go, well, John six is important, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they know something maybe about John six. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think we read it as part of the Electionary every third year during the summer, uh, and occasionally other times. But, so, you know, I I just, could you maybe just say a word or two, what is, you know, what is, why is John six so kind of important in the Catholic imagination for our understanding of the Eucharist?
Speaker 0 00:02:57 Right. Well, I think, um, what makes John six unique is, is that in the Syop Gospels, Matthew, mark, and Luke, we have the last Supper where Jesus institutes the Eucharist. He says, this is my body which will be given up for you. This is the cup of my blood, which will be poured out for you. Do this in me, memory of me. Uh, and in so doing, Jesus is really giving us the means to understand what's happening in his crucifixion and death, that he's offering up his body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. And having done so, uh, he will rise from the dead. And so the Eucharist is very much seen, uh, in relationship to the events of Jesus' death and resurrection. Now, John's Gospel does not have the last Supper. Well, it has the last Supper, but it doesn't have the institutional narrative of mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:03:59 <affirmative> of the Eucharist. But I think John, as he does so often in his, uh, gospel, is giving us a theological interpretation of some of the events that take place in the synoptic gospels. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So John, I is offering, I think, through the words of Jesus in chapter six, the fuller or deeper are making sure we fully understand, uh, what is happening when we celebrate the, uh, the Eucharist, the mass, um, and what the fuller meaning of the Eucharist itself is. And so in John's gospel, uh, Jesus in chapter six says, you know, I am the bread of life that has come down from heaven. Now, in saying that he is the bread of life, I am the bread of life. This is one of the seven, what is known as one of the seven I am saints. Me. I am, I am the bread of life come down from heaven.
Speaker 0 00:05:09 He, we also, I am the light of the world ego me. I'm the light of the world. I am the good shepherd. I am the way, the truth and the life. I'm the resurrection and the life. So we have these seven I am am sayings, uh, but by Jesus saying I am, he's referring to the fact that he who is truly God. When Moses asked, uh, God, what his name was in the desert, uh, he says, you know, I am who am I am the one who is. And so Jesus, here in the I am saying, is appropriating the name of Yahweh God. Uh, so he is saying, I am a the bread of life. Uh, it's come down from heaven. Now, there's various coming downs from heaven. The first coming down from heaven is the incarnation, uh, in the incarnation, the Son of God, the word of God comes down from heaven and becomes flesh.
Speaker 0 00:06:15 He takes on our humanity. And so as he comes down as the bread of life and the incarnation that he might nourish us and feed us with his word, that he might nourish us and feed us with his salvific worth of death and theros and the resurrection. Uh, but this is the, the foundational coming down, the incarnation will be coming, coming down as the coming down from heaven. He who is, who exists with, with the Father from all eternity. He's the one who comes down in the incarnation, but having come down from heaven as the bread of life in the incarnation, then, uh, he also is able then to become the bread of life in the Eucharist.
Speaker 2 00:07:05 Yeah. So, you know, say a little bit more about that. I love the fact that you relate when he says, right, I am the bread of life, who comes down from heaven? That Right. That sense of like, I am, uh, and I, I, it, it's interesting. I know in the, uh, Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, it uses the exact same words in Greek, it's the Eggo and me I am, and it's the, that's the same, uh, verbal Greek formulation that shows up in Exodus, right. Ao and me. It shows up again, by the way, in Isaiah at a handful of places. Right. I am, uh, and so, right. This is this kind of divine name. And it's interesting too, if you think about, say the prophets just for a moment, um, Isaiah's awesome. Moses is awesome, right? All, I mean, we have, we have wonderful, great, uh, Elijah's an amazing, but they don't say things like, right, I am the door.
Speaker 2 00:07:58 Right. I am the gate to heaven. I am the bread of life. Jesus really is doing something new. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, and in, in that very element, and to identify himself as the bread of life is, it's, it's, it's taking up in a way the entire kind of prophetic and tradition of Israel, but somehow kind of not collapsing it. But it's saying he is both the prophets who have, like, who are down here, but he's also the God who is up there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and just in, so in that little expression, I, I love the way you kind of draw that together, that I am the bread of life who has come down from heaven drawing together in a way his divine nature and his human nature in the incarnation. And, and yet he's not merely just the incarnation, right. He's the incarnation come to us as the bread of life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and right bread. Is that right? We pray in the, our father give us this day our daily bread. Can you say more about how Right. That this transition in a way to like a eucharistic understanding and how Jesus in John six is helping us, and in the way John is telling the story is helping us to understand better, you know, the, the reality of the Eucharist.
Speaker 0 00:09:15 Okay. Uh, before, before I do that, we were saying before within your words that, you know, Jesus says, I am, I am the bread of life. Uh, I am the gate. Yeah. Uh, you know, and what's important here, it's inter is placed specifically like when Jesus, I am the gate to the sheet fold, or I am the gate to the, to the pasture, uh, or I'm the door. Normally we think of a door as something you walk through mm-hmm. <affirmative> to get to from one room to another. All right? But when Jesus says, I am the door, I am the gate. You don't walk through Jesus to get to somewhere else. All right. Uhhuh <affirmative>, Jesus is the entrance to the Father to abide in Jesus to the door. You have entrance to the heavenly reality. You have entrance into the Father himself. Uh, he, he is not something you, you sort of walk through to get to somewhere else.
Speaker 0 00:10:24 He is the gate himself. He is the door. And by abiding in him, abiding in him, you h come into the presence of the Father. And that's very relevant then for when Jesus says, I am the bread of life in the eucharistic eucharistic sense. You know, he says, you know, I am the bread of life, and you know, if you abide in me and I abide in you, if you eat my body, drink my blood, you will have eternal life. But the eternal life is again, not something separated from Jesus himself. He is yes, yes. Eternal life. Uh, and so it's, it's a by abiding in Jesus and Jesus abiding in us that we have eternal life. Now, the question is why is, why is that the case? Um, there's a twofold, I think, interconnected reason for this. But in order to understand the twofold, interconnected reason for this, you have to put it in the context again, of Jesus' death and resurrection on the cross.
Speaker 0 00:11:44 The Son of God offers up his humanity as the perfect sacrifice to the Father for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus is the perfect high priest because he's the son of God incarnate. And similarly, he's the perfect victim, the perfect sacrifice for he is the all holy Son of God who's offering us all holy humanity to the Father that our sins might be forgiven. All the unloving deeds that we commit in our sins are canceled out by the one perfect sacrifice, the one perfect act of love to the Father that cleanses this wipes out reconciles to the Father for this forgiveness of our sins. And then because the father is so pleased with his holy and innocent son offering his holy and innocent humanity to him for the forgiveness of sins, he merits in a sense, the effect of his own sacrifice. He is the first born from the dead. He is the one who the father raises from, from the dead because he has offered he no since he, he's merited the effects of the saving sacrifice that he offered on the cross.
Speaker 2 00:13:12 Yeah. So within, so partly what you're reminding us here is when he is talking about Right, if you eat my flesh and drink my blood right, um, I will abide in you and you will abide in me. And that will be eternal life, because it's not just the earthly life that Jesus has, but by his total conformity in love on the cross with the accepted suffering as you put it, he merits what we could never do. He does. And he then is risen. He's raised from the dead. He is risen, and there he is beginning. He then now has the eternal life that we need, not just the eternal life of divinity, but the eternal life of a human nature raised unto God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so you're then in a way, helping us to see that the Eucharist, that Jesus is talking about, the Eucharist in a way, eating his flesh and drinking his blood, is not only right, his earthly flesh and blood mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's really his resurrected flesh and blood. Is that true?
Speaker 0 00:14:21 Yes. That's, that's, yes, that's exactly true. You ha you they go, they go together. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's the, it's the risen given up body on the cross that we received mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's the risen, poured out blood on the cross that we drink. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so the sacrifice is, is, uh, united to the resurrection. The bo body and blood that was suffered across is now the risen body and blood that we receive in the Eucharist. We receive the risen humanity of, of Jesus. Uh, and the obvious reason for that is because that's in the manner in which Jesus now truly exists. He exists as the risen incarnate son of God, and it's arisen incarnate son of God that, that we partake of in the Eucharist. And it is interesting to hear, uh, um, the relationship between baptism and, and the Eucharist. I think it's kind of important to see the relationship to them, because, you know, we only say those who are baptized can receive the Eucharist.
Speaker 0 00:15:36 Uh, when I was writing my book, uh, Jesus Becoming Jesus a theological introduction to the Gospel of John, uh, obviously one of the first things I wrote about was the wedding Feasta Cana. And this is, it is the first miracle that Jesus does in John's gospel. And so Mary asked somebody, they're outta wine, okay? And, uh, he have these water jars filled with water, and he says to take some of this water to the steward, alright? And when the steward drinks it, it's wine. So my question was immediately, well, not immediately, but I thought, this is strange. When does the miracle take place? You know, what Jesus gives to the servant is water. What the servant gives to the steward is why, all right? Now, obviously, the abundance of water is a baptismal, sacramental image, huh? Yeah. The abundance of new life, the abundance of water, uh, all, all is the image of baptism where we're cleansed to sin given new life, wash, clean, uh, received the new life of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 0 00:17:01 So we started out with that imagery, but then when we get to the steward, the servant having walked from Jesus to the steward, what the steward drinks is wine. And all of a sudden the imagery switches from baptismal imagery to eucharistic imagery. And, and so it struck me what Jesus in this miracle is doing is showing the intrinsic relationship between baptism and the Eucharist that wow, that's, that's so beautiful. Baptism finds its fulfillment in receiving the Eucharist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're baptized into the body of Christ and become members of his mystical body. But in so being baptized into the body of Christ, we now have the privilege to receive Jesus in the fullness of his Eucharistic presence in the Eucharist. And, and so they're tied together until you receive the Eucharist, you really haven't fulfilled your baptism. I mean, this is one of the reasons why the Orthodox immediately upon baptism, you know, they baptize the child, they sign them with charism and them immediately give the infant a little spoonful of the precious blood. Uh, the imagery here of John's Jesus' miracle, a cana is much more made present in that understanding, you know? But, but you know, it would be the same, you know, within, within our Roman Catholic tradition that, you know, we, infants are baptized, but their baptism is completed when, on their first communi communion day. Ah. Uh, so anyway, it's, I think it's a marvelous imagery. Uh,
Speaker 2 00:18:56 No, that's so beautiful. And, and, and for, you know, listeners who, uh, just as a re reminder, the wedding at Canas and John two, uh, and then the story about Nicodemus and being born again by water and the spirit is John three. Three, yep. Yeah. And then the Bread of Life discourse that we've been talking about it is John six. So that That's right. It's a beautiful way of introduce, of seeing how that wedding and Cana story writes, sets up both John three on baptism and John six on the Eucharist,
Speaker 0 00:19:26 And it, it culminates on the cross when Jesus decide is pierced, what comes forth water and blood. It's from the open side of Christ on the cross that the church is born of baptism and the Eucharist. So the sort of, one of the, the first act of what Jesus does in the wedding actually finds its fulfillment mm-hmm. <affirmative> in Jesus's death on, on the crotch.
Speaker 2 00:19:55 Does that mean that there's a, is there a wedding? Is there a wedding on the cross? Well,
Speaker 0 00:20:00 Well, yes, there is. Uh, Jesus and me. J Mary becomes the church Mary between beneath her cross and John's gospel symbol. She's the ecclesial woman. He never calls her, I don't think, I don't think he calls her mother even. Yeah. Um, but he never calls her Mary, she's always woman. She's the ecclesial woman, the New Eve. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, born at the new Adam. Jesus. Uh, and she's a mother of all the living mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because she's a be she's a mother of all living, because on the cross, Jesus pours out upon her the blood and water that creates her into the living icon of the church.
Speaker 2 00:20:42 Wow. That's, uh, uh, so beautiful. Let's, uh, let's take a moment and, uh, we'll come back in. Let's, let's dive back into John six and maybe consider a couple ways that people might misunderstand it or questions that people might have. All right.
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Speaker 2 00:21:28 Welcome back to the show. And today, uh, we're so happy to have Father Thomas wine, Andy Capuchin fry, uh, Franciscan Fryer, uh, and, uh, really, uh, just a, a wonderful, uh, theologian and biblical scholar who has written and taught so much, uh, over the years, and we've been discussing, uh, especially John six and the Eucharist. Uh, uh, so maybe just to begin with, uh, what would you say to people who say that you know, that this is, yes, Jesus says a lot of beautiful things here, but he's really speaking as a metaphor, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> when he says that this is, you know, my, my bread, that right. This is just metaphorical. And, uh, and, and even of course, as, uh, sometimes I think, you know, non-Catholic, Protestant Christians that are maybe even a, you know, really trying to understand what Jesus is teaching, find this, uh, expression John 6 63, right. This verse that it is the spirit that gives life the fleshes of no avail. So seems that Jesus says that the fleshes of no avail, and why not think that he's speaking right, metaphorically, uh, when he talks in John six.
Speaker 0 00:22:42 Okay. Uh, Michael, before I answer those questions, yeah. Uh, I'd like to make, uh, in light of what you, how you introduce me on this second round as a biblical scholar. I'm not a biblical scholar. Uh, I'm <laugh>. I'm, I'm, I'm a trained historical systematic theologian. Uh, and so most of my work over the past 30, 40 years has been on theological doctrinal, philosophical issues. Um, but 50 years ago or more, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in a charismatic renewal. And one of the things that happened when I was baptized in the spirit be primarily Jesus became alive for me, truly alive. And he's always remained alive for me ever since then. Uh, but the other effect that has been at lasting is the Lord gave me a great love for scripture. And I think now that I'm coming towards the end of my life, um, the, the love for scripture has now come to fruition. And, and that's why I've written, wrote the three volumes in a sense. Jesus becoming, Jesus, one of the synoptic gospels and tour John was because of the great love of for scripture that, that Jesus has had given me. And, and so, um, despite the fact that other than normal training and scripture to for a nation, you know, I have no advanced degree in scripture whatsoever. Nonetheless, nonetheless, because of my love for scripture, I think the Lord has blessed the volumes that I've written on the Synoptics and John. But the point,
Speaker 2 00:24:37 And just, and if, if I may, uh, sure. Just to say too, that like, you know, Dave Verum, uh, uh, one of the documents on divine revelation from Vatican two right. Speaks that scripture should be the soul of theology. And so I also think it's so beautiful and right. If we, you we've spent our life studying theology, which is really, um, right. You know, God has revealed in Jesus Christ as communicated through scripture and through the theolo theological tradition mm-hmm. <affirmative> and conciliator creeds and the tradition of the church, um, right. How beautiful, in a way for a theologian to, well, yes. Take up that. What do we do? It's like, what did Aquinas do after he had done all his other theology? He wrote commentaries on scripture. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:25:18 Well, that was his primary, that's his,
Speaker 2 00:25:19 That was his job.
Speaker 0 00:25:20 That was his primary job. You know, writing to Summa was extracurricular. Yes. But anyway,
Speaker 2 00:25:25 <laugh>, so I just love the fact that you've actually kind of done that as a theologian come back to Yeah. Reading and teaching scripture. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:25:32 So, yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. So, yes, I mean, and your questions now, I think, uh, you know, Jesus says in John six, he says, truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. He EAs my flesh and drinks, my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed. And my blood is drink. Indeed, he EAs my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me. And I in him, Jesus here is very adamant that we need to actually consume his flesh and Dr actually drink his blood. Uh, and we need to be actually, in a sense, consume Jesus himself. In the other I am sayings, you know, Jesus says, I am the door, but he doesn't change himself into an actual door.
Speaker 0 00:26:48 He is a door in the sense you have to abide in him to enter into the promised land, into the presence of the Father. But here in this, I am saying, he is saying, I am the bread of life, and I am the bread of life because my very self, who I am, who I am in my flesh, in my blood, I am the bread of life. And unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you will not have life in you. But if you do eat my body and drink my blood, you will live forever, because you will, I will abide in you and you will abide in me. So we have a difference here in a ways away since, uh, some of the other I am sayings, uh, it's, but for ex example. But Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life again.
Speaker 0 00:27:50 But we have to abide in Jesus the risen Jesus, it order for him to be our resurrection and the life. And that fits in very well with what, what John Jesus says here in John, uh, the reason we have to eat his flesh and drink his blood in order to have eternal life is because what we are in communion with is the risen Jesus. It's the risen body and blood of Jesus, the risen given up body that we consume. It's the risen, poured out blood that we drink. It's the risen Jesus that we come in communion with in the Eucharist. And because we abide in the risen Jesus, he who is the resurrection and the life that we have eternal life. And so it's, it's, we, there's a literalness here that is unique to, to this I am saying in when he says, you know, he's very, again, very adamant about, and this is what why people found it so hard to believe, and this is a hard saying, and what it went away. But Jesus says, this is a bread which comes down from heaven, not that came down from heaven, that your father's eight and died. He eats this bread. What is this bread? His flesh and his blood, they will live forever. Okay. So it's, it's, there's something, something, uh, entirely unique in this when Jesus says, you know, you must eat my body and drink my blood in order to have life, because his risen body and blood is life giving. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:29:34 That's, uh, anyway, that's, that's so well put. Right. It's you, you, you see, it's, it's not just one image that shows up. I am the bread of life. And then he moves on. It's then he says, because I'm the bread of life, if you write, eat my flesh and drink my blood. And then he repeats it and he repeats it. And really, this is the way that we enter into the resurrection. This is the way that we enter into communion in a way. This is the way we go through the door. This is the way that we become branches on the vine. That's right.
Speaker 0 00:30:02 That's
Speaker 2 00:30:03 Right. This is the way that Christ abides enough. So,
Speaker 0 00:30:06 And it's a by abiding in Jesus that he becomes the light of the world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's by abiding in Jesus that he becomes a shepherd that leads us into eternal life. Um, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:30:17 So what about then, uh, John 6 63, the spirit gives life and the fleshes of no avail. How would we understand that? Well,
Speaker 0 00:30:26 I think, um, that when John uses the word, Jesus uses the word flesh there. I think he's also, he's talking about the flesh that we receive when we are born is of no value. Wow. It's sort of, it's sort of what, like what he told Nicodemus, you know, how do I enter into the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus is, you know, flesh begets flesh, spirit begets spirit, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, unless you're baptized, you cannot enter by water and the spirit. You cannot enter the kingdom of God. Similarly, this goes back in a sense to, uh, the, um, wedding feast of Cana. You know, we are baptized into Jesus. Our old, a nature that we inherited from Adam is put to death, to u sort of use Paul line imagery, but it's similar to Jesus. You know, flesh begets, fleshed death, begets death. All right?
Speaker 0 00:31:29 But when we're baptized by water in the spirit, we can enter the kingdom of heaven because we become a new creation in Christ. We dwell now in Him. Yes. Yes. Alright. And so now, what was the flesh that was of no avail has now become life because, uh, because now it's the spirit that gives life into transforming us into a new creation by baptizing us into the, into the risen Jesus. And again, that, that finds its fulfillment. Yet having been baptized into the kingdom of God, having Jesus is the kingdom of God. He embodies the kingdom. The kingdom is not some geographical area outside of Him. Yes. He, he is the kingdom to Biden. The kingdom is to abide in Jesus. And so similarly, you know, we fully more fully abide in Jesus in the Eucharist when he gives us his very self, his complete humanity, risen body, risen blood, the whole of Him and his divinity.
Speaker 0 00:32:36 It's the divine son of God who gives us his risen humanity. And by being con communion with the risen humanity of Jesus, we're in, in communion with the risen humanity of the very son of God. And so we have eternal life for both being abiding and the risen Jesus who is the son of God, who is e eternal and has eternal life, uh, from wall eternity. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's marvelous really, the, that, you know, Jesus has done this, you know, his death and resurrection would mean nothing if it wasn't for the sacraments. The death and resurrection for Jesus was for the purpose of the sacraments. Well
Speaker 2 00:33:23 Say more. Okay. Say more.
Speaker 0 00:33:25 Uh, but, you know, we had to be in communion with Jesus's death and resurrection. Well, how do we get if we don't, are in communion with the death and resurrection of Jesus? We're not saved. I mean, he saved us, but we gotta be in communion with it if we are saved. You know, there were, you know, maybe 30 people beneath the cross. The only person who who, who may have been affected by that vet was Mary John, Mary Magdalene and sue women maybe, you know, but Yeah. But it's through the sacrament. Jesus died and rose from the dead for the sake of the sacraments, because it's in baptism, we're united to the death and resurrection of Jesus. It's in the Eucharist that we come into full communion with him. If it wasn't for the sacraments, the cross would have no efficacious effect upon our salvation. And so it's important that we, uh, see this. Now, I had something else, but I can't remember,
Speaker 2 00:34:24 May I make one observation? I I love when it talks about in, uh, John 6 63, right. The Spirit gives life the fleshes of no avail. Well see, just before he said, if you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will have eternal life. And unless you eat my, you know, like you will have you if, if you do not eat my flesh, and you will not have eternal life. So there he says that fleshes everything, uhhuh <affirmative>, his flesh is everything. And then just a little bit later, he says, the fleshes of no avail. Well, we have that same pattern right in the beginning of John and John, uh, one, uh, verses 12 and 13, he talks about kind of all who believe in his name. He gave them power to become children of God. Born not of flesh. Flesh not of the will of the flesh. Not of the flesh of man, but born of God.
Speaker 0 00:35:08 Right.
Speaker 2 00:35:09 Very good. And then in the next line, uh, one 14 verse 14, it's the word became flesh and dwelt among us. So right there we have the flesh is of no avail for being born of God, Uhhuh, <affirmative>. And then we have the beauty that the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Right? So the flesh as our natural flesh of our natural lives where we are somewhat born into death mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that natural flesh will die. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the flesh, when it's united to the word of God, becomes the saving principle. So the same That's right. The same pattern we see in the Yes. Yes. In the incarnation is the same pattern we see here. And Yeah. Um, by the way, I'd also just loved, as you talk about the sense of the spirit giving life, you said something beautiful, uh, in a talk I heard recently, uh, that you gave, where you talked about how Jesus on the cross gives up his breath and that that's, and then, and then what does he do? And then the next thing he does is he breathes the Holy Spirit. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:36:07 Be begin before you. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:36:09 I'll, I'll hold on to that. No worries.
Speaker 0 00:36:10 Hold onto that. You know, sometimes, um, uh, non-Catholics are, you know, Protestants, right. Wanna say, you know, this is just what Jesus says, eat by fleshing is symbolic. Okay. And so we're a and so what we eat when we in Protestant services, we eat signs of Jesus is, but not the real reality. Now, when I, you know, thinking about that, you know, let's say that the Protestant interpretation is correct, okay, but wouldn't it be great if the Catholic tradition was correct, <laugh>, you know, wouldn't it be much nicer and better and greater that we not as Jake ate and drank a symbol, but we actually ate and drank the reality? I mean, uh, you know, so, you know, you know, I think the, the Catholic interpretation, uh, is even if it was wrong <laugh>, it sure would be drain if we really did have living communion with Jesus through the Eucharist.
Speaker 0 00:37:17 Of course it's correct. As Catholic, we ask, we do, we leave that what Jesus says should be taken as the Catholics interpreted. Um, and so, uh, it is the, is the, the most marvelous gift that Jesus has given to us, you know? Alright, so, um, yes, on the cross, uh, in John's gospel, uh, Jesus says, you know, he thirst well, what is he thirst for? He thirst for salvation. And he says at the end, it's finished. The work that the father's given to him to do is finished on the cross, but it's not just the work of the cross that were things are finished, but in the resurrection as well. John, as a scholar's note yuzu says that Jesus breathed out his spirit. And usually there's a foot quote in your Bible said, this is not a usual way expressing death in the ancient world, you know, but what John sees here is the last breath of Jesus.
Speaker 0 00:38:26 The last breath of Jesus is Jesus offering up his life to the Father. He's breathing out his spirit, his life, the whole who he is to the Father in love. But simultaneous to that because it's the final breath of offering his eternal life to the Father out of love. It is equally the first breath of pouring out the Holy Spirit of the resurrection upon the world. Uh, and so he is breath, he sed breathing out his life to the Father in love and simultaneously breathing out his spirit is, is is the new life upon the church, which is symbolized in Mary. Mary. You know, one hand he's pouring, breathing out his life to the father in love as a sacrifice, but he's also breathing out his life, the new life of his resurrection, on to Mary and Sean, who are symbols of the church. And, and so it's brought the last breath of his earthly life and the first breath of his risen life.
Speaker 2 00:39:33 And then when he appears, uh, to the apostles in the upper room Right. He then breathes that That's right. He breathes on them the holy breath. Yes. Yes. Which is that same breath that he that is so, um, yes. It's so, and that's why then it gives the, the, the apostles the forgiveness of their sins and the ability to forgive the sins of others. That's right.
Speaker 0 00:39:52 That's
Speaker 2 00:39:52 Right. Well, that's, uh, wonderful. Father, just as we're beginning to, you know, get, uh, close to the end of our show, I wanted to ask you, uh, three questions. All right. Uh, so what's a book you're reading
Speaker 0 00:40:02 The book? I'm reading
Speaker 2 00:40:04 A book. What's any book you're reading?
Speaker 0 00:40:06 A book I'm reading Ge Many Cranberries
Speaker 2 00:40:09 Or one you've read recently.
Speaker 0 00:40:10 Uh, uh, see the problem when you write books, you sometimes don't read books.
Speaker 2 00:40:15 <laugh>, what's a book you're writing, maybe <laugh>?
Speaker 0 00:40:17 Well, right now I'm an, an no. Uh, I, I, I just bought, which I really wanna read, um, is, um, uh, David
Speaker 2 00:40:28 Fineberg.
Speaker 0 00:40:29 Yes, yes. Book on mystical liturgy. Okay. I'm really interested in getting more interested again, because of Sacrament, the Liturgy. And I, I know David and, and he's a great, he's a Jewish convert to Catholicism, and he has a great love for the, for the Eucharist. So I want, I want to read, I'm giving you a plug for his book here.
Speaker 2 00:40:51 I'm sorry, what was that again? What was the title?
Speaker 0 00:40:53 Uh, mystical. The Mystical Mystical
Speaker 2 00:40:55 Liturgy. Mystical Liturgy. Well, thank you.
Speaker 0 00:40:57 So, so there.
Speaker 2 00:40:59 And, uh, just another, um, oh, sorry. Did you wanna mention another thing? Okay, another question. Um, obviously, you know, as a, a caption, uh, Franciscan fryer, you have, uh, many, many, uh, spiritual practices. But what's one spiritual practice, uh, that you'd be willing to share with listeners that you find, uh, grants you meaning and hope? Yes,
Speaker 0 00:41:18 Yes. Uh, uh, for many, many years now, uh, I've asked Mary to wrap her mantilla protection around me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I did that for many years, not knowing that this was a common practice in the Middle Ages. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I remember many years ago, I walked into the cathedral in Vienna, St. Stephen's Cathedral, and on the first pillar, and back on the left hand side is a statue of Mary holding out her mantel with little people mm-hmm. <affirmative> underneath. Yes, yes, yes. And I thought, yes, that's exactly what I've been doing. <laugh>. And, and then I found out I went on the inter well internet or, or other places. And the, the, you know, we had, she's depicted in this, uh, uh, many, many times, you know. Um, but, and I, you know, I always, I do that, uh, at least twice a day when I get up in the morning, going to bed at night. Uh, but all throughout the day, and I encourage other people, please ask very to sacramental protection around you and draw you into the very hearted Jesus, you know? Wow. That's, that's what she wants to do. She wants to protect us in her mantle and then sweep us with her mantle into the very heart of Jesus, her son, so that we would abide in the heart of, of Jesus.
Speaker 2 00:42:41 That's, that's, that's really beautifully put. Uh, and uh, last question. What's a false belief that you held about God at some point? And what was the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:42:52 Well, I don't want to brag, but I never had a false belief about, God said, I can't remember, because I've always been a loyal Catholic. And if you're loyal Catholic, you'll never have a false belief about mm-hmm. <affirmative> anything, uh, you know, uh, if you're faithful to the catechism mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I add, add into the living tradition, uh, you know, but, um, I don't remember ever having a, a false belief. That's
Speaker 2 00:43:22 Beautiful. That's beautiful. Really just surrendering to the Well, well, yes. To the teachings of Christ. I I
Speaker 0 00:43:26 Grew through the church. Yeah. I, you know, I, I, you know, grew up in a very Catholic family. I grew up in a very Catholic little small town. Um, 90%, 80, 90% of the people were German, 80% of them were Catholic. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, you know, I learned my catechism. Yeah. And you know,
Speaker 2 00:43:47 What a gift. What a gift.
Speaker 0 00:43:48 Uh, I, you know, I've come to understand the catechism better, but it's the same. That's great. Same catechism that said, you know, there's one God and three persons. Well, I don't comprehend that mystery. Yeah. But I can mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I can talk about it a little bit more.
Speaker 2 00:44:07 Wow. That's, uh, so beautiful.
Speaker 0 00:44:09 The incarnation, you know?
Speaker 2 00:44:10 Yeah. Well, thank you so much, father, for being on the show and for helping us just to kind of walk a little bit, Wade a little bit more deeply into the beautiful teachings of really the whole, whole mystery of redemption and of Christ death and resurrection as that, uh, right. As, as the resu, as the spirit of the resurrection, uh, has communicated to us, uh, through Right. The bread and wine of the Eucharist, and, uh, just such a gift for any people who might be interested in, uh, reading or, uh, buying some of father whining in these books. Uh, Jesus Becoming, Jesus is available, uh, through, uh, C u a Catholic University of America press. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:44:48 They publish, but you get it on Amazon. You, you go to Amazon, Google My
Speaker 2 00:44:51 Name's. One thing is, if you go to, uh, the c u a press, by the way, we have a special code for listeners of the Catholic Theology Show, uh, CT one zero. So CT 10, and you can get I think 20% off, um, on that. And you buy a copy. And, uh, father, we, Andy also has two books with Sapia Press of Ave Murray University, one Jesus Essays in Christology, and a recent book on the Trinity, I believe, called Time and Eternity.
Speaker 0 00:45:17 Oh, it's a tri, yeah. The Trinity Eternity and Time. What does it mean for the Trinity Be eternal? And how does an Eternal Trinity relate to time without ceasing to be eternal? And how did the Son of God become man without destroying his eternity? And we, because we live in Jesus, there is, in Jesus, we live in two time zones. We live here on Earth. Yeah. And we also already live with Jesus and Heaven.
Speaker 2 00:45:43 Wow. So well put, and just again, Thomas Wein, Andy, w e i n a n d y, and if you want to go onto the Catholic University of America, press or Sapia press, the code is Catholic, or sorry, CT 10. So anyway, thank you so much, father, for being on our show. Lord
Speaker 0 00:46:00 Bless you. And hope everybody comes to love Jesus more and more.
Speaker 2 00:46:04 Amen. Amen. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:46:07 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
