Speaker 0 00:00:00 When you really love someone, you really want their goodness to be made manifest to other people, to be known and appreciated by others. And so, our desire for God to be glorified, to be widely known with praise is born out of our love for him.
Speaker 2 00:00:25 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Dnet, and today I'm joined by Father Dominic Feer, uh, Dominican, uh, who has, uh, joined us and is visiting Ave Maria University today. And we're very delighted to have him here. Uh, Father, um, I wanted to ask you a question. Uh, you, you wrote a whole dissertation on the theme of glory and, uh, there's a prayer that many Catholics use, right? This glory bee to the Father and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, and right. What on earth does that prayer mean? Right? How can we understand it?
Speaker 0 00:01:02 Uh, it's a great question and one that I didn't really give much thought to when I grew up praying the glory. B I mean, it's one of those things that's kind of ingrained. You pray it every time you pray the rosary. And, but when I started diving into my dissertation, I was looking at the ethics of honor and how we honor God and each other. And, and there I I really started studying St. Thomas Aquinas on this question, What is honor? What is glory? Yeah. And St. Thomas follows, uh, Cicero and Augustine in defining glory. Um, glory is, is clear knowledge with praise. So, uh, or wide renowned, uh, with approbation. So basically, there's kind of two elements to it. It's being known and being known with a, a certain kind of delight or affirmation of the goodness that is in you. So when you, when you give glory to God, you are knowing God, acknowledging God, and then also, uh, praising or expressing a kind of approbation of God's goodness, a kind of delight in God's goodness. And so, it's an interesting prayer, though. Glory b to the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit was at the beginning is now and ever shall be. We let that end. Uh, what we're doing though, when we pray that prayer, we're actually uniting ourselves to the a prayer, uh, that our Lord himself prays. And the high priestly prayer of John 17. Wow.
Speaker 2 00:02:23 Would he, he, I think most people totally overlooked that.
Speaker 0 00:02:26 Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's beautiful because, uh, there our Lord asks his father to, uh, to glorify His name, um, with the glory that we had at the beginning, you know, which is a fascinating kind of, uh, in some ways mysterious saying and mysterious prayer that he, he offers there. I'm a bit of a paraphrase there, but, um, and what he's asking for, he's asking that, that he have the glory that he had with the Father in the beginning. In the beginning, of course, God knows himself perfectly. Father knows the Son perfectly, the Holy Spirit perfectly. They know each other and they delight in each other. Um, in a way, the glory of God is perfect because it's perfect recognition of each other and perfect delight in each other. And so the son and, and asking for that glory is actually asking that all of us might be brought into that perfect knowledge of God and perfect delight in God and his goodness.
Speaker 0 00:03:25 And so when we ask, when we say that prayer unite ourselves to our Lord's prayer, we are asking for the Lord to give us the grace to know Him perfectly and to, um, and to rejoice in Him and His goodness. And so it's, it's when we, and we, we asked that for that grace, because of course, we need God's help to do this, um, to give him glory, um, to acknowledge, to know him, and to, to praise him as his, as his due. So that's, that is kind of how I came to understand the prayer. Um, and it has actually enriched the prayer for me. Now. I kind of know what I'm asking for a little bit more clearly. Um, that's, and and seeing it as uniting myself to the mission of the sun as well, is a beautiful way to, to enter into that prayer.
Speaker 2 00:04:11 Sure. So that sense, that glory then is that kind of, to be widely known with the light. So when we give glory to God, we're not, we're not giving something to God that he doesn't already have. God doesn't need anything. Right. He doesn't need extra glory. Right. He already has enough. And yet, when we give glory to God, we're kind of then coming to know him with praise. We're knowing him and delighting in God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, and, and we're imitating then the very knowledge and love that's within the Trinity from all eternity. Exactly. Right. So it's appropriate in a way to say glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit because in a certain sense we're, we are wanting to align ourselves to the glory that's in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 0 00:05:00 Exactly. And, and by doing that, we're actually entering into and asking for the perfect happiness and joy. You know, this is actually the, what we're made for, we're made to know and to love God. We're made to be in union with God. And whenever you're, you're really with someone you love and you're delighting in being in their presence, that's, you know, that communion is itself the source of joy. Right. So we're made for this communion with, with the, with the Lord such that we can know him and rejoice in Him so that his joy might be in us. And so it is, it is Right. Even though, yes, we don't give something to God, which he, he needs, we give something to God, which actually he desires for our sake. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, because this is actually at the core of the mystery of our B attitude and our perfect happiness to know God, to rejoice in
Speaker 2 00:05:55 Him. Yeah. And I think the catechism says that, Right? God, why did God create the world? He didn't need the world, but God created the world to show his glory. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And how does he show his glory and creation? Well, he is not showing it to other gods cuz there are no other gods. But he manifests his glory and creation by having creatures in creation who can come to know and love him in a way with his own knowledge and love. Right. Eventually to really have sons and daughters. Exactly. So that's really beautiful. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, I think in some ways when we talk about glory, um, I mean, I don't know, I feel like that, you know, if we start talking about it before people, or I mean, there's almost a sense of kind of like embarrassment, um, you know, like as though the faith maybe is mercenary or we're just trying to become, I don't know, you know, like, so it, it, there it's almost kind of embarrassing to say, Well, I I really wanna be, I I wanna find glory. And so, um, so how would you, how do you help people think about that this idea for glory is not, or you know, I guess maybe I should ask you, is it, is it embarrassing? Is it selfish
Speaker 0 00:07:08 Right. To desire glory for oneself? Is that kind of the question is like, how do we
Speaker 2 00:07:13 Desire it at all?
Speaker 0 00:07:14 Right. Right. Well, it's a great question. And what's beautiful about the Lord's love for us is that he actually wants his own glory to be ours. He wants to share that glory with us, which means he desires us to, to be known ultimately by him, to recognize that we're known by him and approved by him. Right. To hear the words of our Lord, well done by good and faithful servant, come and enter into your master's joy. He wants us to, to hear that from him, to, to know that we are known and loved and delighted in which is kind of the, the core of, of our union with him in, in the life to come. So that's the glory that we hope for, that we're made for. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there's nothing wrong in seeking that. Right. But certainly, uh, there's another question about, well, what about in this life?
Speaker 0 00:08:02 Right? The kind of glory that, that, uh, and, you know, well, reputation, um, fame, uh, recognition that we desire from other people. Right. And that, of course, is a little bit more fraught and we have to be careful. And how we, um, what kind of, uh, recognition and respect and honor that we seek and that we accept from other people always has to be for what is truly honorable in God's eyes, and ultimately referred to God who is the source of all good and that we have in ourselves and and referred to the good of our neighbor. Um, so there is a, a bit of a, you know, there is a something, um, you know, certain ambivalence we should have towards certainly worldly honor and, and respect and recognition. Um, and we have to be careful there. But certainly the Lord has made us for glory and the glory that is also, uh, that comes from him first and foremost.
Speaker 2 00:08:59 Yeah. So maybe if we go back to the original prayer, glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, we could almost make it it's almost glory with the Father of the Son and the Holy Spirit, that the true glory we seek is not when we stand on our own and say, I did it. Right. I'm glorious. It's more when we recognize I've been created. Right. I've been created, and I've actually kind of, I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. You know, how wonderful it is that I exist as a creature of a glorious creator. Right. So I'm kind of recognizing in myself the fact that I don't exist from myself or for myself, but that I exist from God for God as a creature of his. So, you know, it almost reminds me when is is something as silly? Uh, you know, why is it that parents put kids artwork up on their refrigerators? Well, it's because to a certain extent, their kids did it. They love their kids, so they put the art on there. And so there's a strange way when we see ourselves, of course, obviously, uh, better than probably the kids' artwork, um, but also filled with a lot of defects because of Right. The, the problems of sin and the brokenness of the world. We see ourselves as artwork almost, that we can kind of find joy in and happiness in mm-hmm. <affirmative> because we see we're really just kind of, we're we're handy work of God.
Speaker 0 00:10:35 Right. Right. Exactly. And that's, it's, it is liberating just to, and any encounter with that love of mm-hmm. <affirmative> of our father who has chosen us to be his adopted sons and daughters who has testified by, by this choosing to our, to our goodness, and that we, we, he does delight in us despite all of our, you know, sins and failings. You know, He, he, uh, he has chosen us anyway, even though we're yet sinners. Right. So, so the love of the, of the Father, which we, you know, encounter through the Son, is a, it liberates us to ex actually accept our brokenness and to accept that we are yet beloved and, and esteemed highly by the God who's made us, who's redeemed us. So there is a liberating, um, truth here, you know, to be found that, that the father loves us, that the son died for us, though we're yet sinners, and that there is a mission then given to us too, a mission to actually, to join the Son in his redemptive work, which is a glorious mission.
Speaker 0 00:11:45 You know, it's, it's a mission which we do not deserve, but which by his grace, uh, by the, the Spirit at work in our life, were actually brought into such that, you know, the Lord's glory and our glory are really, are really merged, as you said. You know, we glory with the Father here, not because we, you know, not by our own strength or merit, but because we've been incorporated into Christ and now have this noble mission of sanctifying the world, of leading others to him and of, of manifesting the goodness of God by our action, you know, and by our, our thought word. Indeed. So it, it is, uh, truly, uh, a liberating and beautiful, uh, mystery of our faith, that the Lord loves us in this way.
Speaker 2 00:12:29 Yeah. It is beautiful. And it strikes me that when we think about love, there's a time where we do see the necessary kind of love as a commandment. Right. There's sometimes you may not feel like love, but you just love anyway. Right. Love is not a feeling, love is a decision. And that's true. And therefore, there's an aspect of love of, of maybe family members or love of neighbor or, or even love of God that we just do regardless of what we feel. But then there's an aspect of seeing love as kind of leading to glory. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> where that element of Right. We love and we know with praise mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so the kind of love is, is an act of the will, but then overflows into right from the mind to the will and also to the heart, because we kind of say, not only I love you, but thank you.
Speaker 2 00:13:21 Yeah. Not only thank you, but you are wonderful. Right. Right. It's that kind of delighting in the presence of the other. Right. Uh, that I think really is, you know, in, in a way kind of liberating and gets us out of a legalistic framework. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, it reminds me, uh, you know, I, I recently have a, my, uh, you know, granddaughter turned one, and, you know, it's like when you, when you hold her, or you see the family gathered round, there's a delight, there's a love, She didn't earn anything. You know what I mean? It's a receptive mode. Um, and I feel like that's an element of yes, it's love. Yes, there's a command, uh, but there's a delight and a praise and a joy, and there's kind of a glory in a way to a newborn. And, uh, you, you know, now she's one no longer a newborn, but still there's a, there's a kind of delight in that, and there's a kind of glory, there's a splendor.
Speaker 2 00:14:16 Right. Uh, and I think that's almost why people, I kind of somewhat enjoy young children, uh, especially really early before the terrible twos and things, because they kind of manifest just that splendor. Yeah. And, and it kind of wonder. Yeah. And, and I think it kind of, and it's hard for us to see ourselves. We can almost see in them, Okay, they're created by God, they've been baptized as child of God, but I'm kind of so scarred and, and messed up, or, uh, I've made too many bad decisions. It's like hard for us to delight maybe in ourselves and in one another. Uh, and, and so anyways, I think this sense of glory is kind of like a splendor that sometimes we recognize in one another. Um, but I think what you're saying is that when we say that prayer glory be, we're kind of saying, May that glory be to God. May that glory be in me, and in a way, may that glory be in all creation. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:15:10 <affirmative>. Yeah. Exactly. And it, it is true. The connection between love and glory is very close in, in different ways. I like the, the example you gave of, you know, putting up your, your kids' artwork on the, on their fridge. Yeah. You know, there's something about when you really love someone, you really want their goodness to be made manifest to other people, to be, to be to be known and appreciated by others. And so, our desire for God to be glorified, to be widely known with praise, is born out of our love for him. You know, it's love for our father who is so great that we want others to know him and to delight him too. So there's a way that love is drives to glory. Um, it motivates us to seek God's glory. Um, and, and also, you know, there, there is that, um, the way in which glory, you know, the, the testimony to our goodness being known with delight also does confirm for us that we are lovable, as you said.
Speaker 0 00:16:08 You know, that that which is always a doubt, which, which we have because of our sin, because of our, you know, our brokenness Yeah. That we need to hear from, from the Lord, You know, I love you. I, I'm, you're worth dying for, you know, And, and to hear that, that, uh, that affirmation of our goodness from the Father who knows us perfectly, who alone knows us perfectly, who alone can testify with absolute certitude that you are worth it, um, to hear from him, um, that you are, you are good, and I have chosen you and, and, you know, come into my own life, uh, that, that is the, the kind of assurance that we can, uh, that we have something lovable in us Right. Comes from him. Yeah. It's Bo is brought into being from him. Uh, but it's something to delight him.
Speaker 2 00:16:58 Yeah. There's, uh, a powerful kind of theme in the gospels. It reminds me a little bit of where Jesus is talking in the Sermon on the Mount, and sometimes we're familiar, Don't let your works be seen before others, or you'll get reward before others, but do them in secrets that they'll be done bef be seen by God. Uh, and I think that's in Matthew six. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but then in Matthew five, he also says, Right. Let your light shine before men so they may see your good works and give glory to your father in heaven. Right. So there's this, we, we, we ultimately ought to do works, but they're not our works. There are works in a way that are inspired by our Heavenly Father. And yet at the same time, we're not doing them for praise of others. We're doing them for praise of God.
Speaker 2 00:17:42 And, you know, I think it's just kind of fascinating that, cuz I do think there, there can be a tendency, it reminds me of CS Lewis in the screw tape letters when he is talking about humility. I, I think he might say this somewhere else, but you can almost think it's not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But the example he gives is that if you're building a cathedral or if you're an architect, uh, you ought to build the best cathedral you could build and be pleased with it just as much, no more, no less as if anyone else had built it. Hmm. Right. So, uh, and sometimes there might be times where we rejoice too much in our own works and think like, Oh, I did something amazing, and when somebody else does something, we tear it down. Uh, but I think also, and I sometimes tell students this at the end, just like, how proud are they of their fellow graduates on graduation day?
Speaker 2 00:18:34 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I say, Well, you have to be that proud of yourself too, because you should delight in your work no less than the work of another. And so it, it's, to a certain extent, it's, it's not denigrating the genuine goods that human beings can do. And it's certainly not over, It's not glossing over their defects. We're fully aware of those, but we do need also to recover, um, in a way that delight or at least that sense of that recognition of, you know, the, the good things in the world as well. Right.
Speaker 0 00:19:10 Right. Exactly. And, and the Lord really gets it that the, the, the pitfall and also kind of the, the, the mission that we have in this regard where, of course, if we do good deeds so that they may be seen, uh, by men and recognized as such, then of course we've received a reward. Yes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we receive what we did them for. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, we didn't do them for God's honor. We did them for our own. And of course, the Lord has harsh warning about that. Right. But on the other hand, he enjoins us to do good deeds that our father might be glorified. Right. In which case, if that is your intention, then let them be seen. Let them be, let them be acknowledged precisely as a means by which you might help someone else glory, give glory to God, in which case the intention of your work is fulfilled.
Speaker 0 00:20:01 And in so too, in our own, with our own accomplishments, you know, that the Lord has empowered us to perform. Right. This, we can do nothing apart from Christ. So as long as we recognize that the gifts that that, that have enabled us to, to accomplish anything are gifts from him, um, and we acknowledge him as the principle of any good deed that we do, then we can, we can recognize the good that we do as good. Right. And refer it to God as a reason to honor him and to give him glory. And if we do that, then, you know, we'd only be afraid of, you know, there's, we're doing it all as the Lord has intended and, and for his glory.
Speaker 2 00:20:40 Yeah. You had, um, mentioned earlier, uh, this aspect in Romans 12 where Paul says, In loving one another, we should outdo one another in honor mm-hmm. <affirmative> in honoring one another. And what you're describing there, I think if we think about it as doing our work, so others may see them and give glory to God, the moment we, we somehow pause and we just get stuck at the look at me. Right. And then we feel awkward, But there's also a way in which I think we can see the idea that how good it is to encourage one another. And if we see that as honoring one another is in part by encouraging one another in seeing the good things they do, and at least the best we can, trying to do fewer bad things ourselves, and to recognize then we can all be in this together. And through that, you know, we can, uh, you know, we, we we can kind of support one another.
Speaker 0 00:21:34 Yeah. Exactly. That's so important. I mean, it's so important for a number of reasons, but partly because we all desire to be good and to know our own goodness. We all desire that. We're made for that, ultimately, of course, because we're made for, for that perfect union with the father, where we will know not only his good, but are good in him, you know, and know it forever and rejoice in it. And so we need that confirmation, uh, of that we are good. Cause our own self knowledge is very limited, so we need that encouragement from others. And so it's a great gift when we give it to others to help them to see what's truly honorable and good in them, so that they might, uh, be provoked and kind of encouraged to even greater deeds of virtue, and to be encouraged to see what is truly noble in themselves and to live for that.
Speaker 2 00:22:23 Yeah. It reminds me of a, I think it was a marriage prep, uh, speaker or something I was a part of at one time. And I said this idea that one of the things, the beauty is just honoring your spouse. Having that idea that, you know, one of our vows, you know, one, at least one of the classical vows is a sense of honor mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And just if we do that on a daily basis to show honor, uh, and love and joy and praise to one another.
Speaker 0 00:22:48 Yeah. Oh, it's essential. It's essential to a good relationship and to a good friendship and to a healthy body of Christ. Yeah.
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Speaker 2 00:23:29 Bothered. Um, when I talk to, I think young people today especially, but I will say middle-aged people, and I think old people today, there's definitely some people that struggle to see much excitement in Christianity. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, or much excitement in heaven in a way. Christianity seems boring. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> and heaven seems boring. How would you answer?
Speaker 0 00:23:57 It's a great question. I've encountered the same, the same phenomena. Um, well, I think it helps to start with kind of an understanding of what boredom is. You know, a wise person once told me, I'm afraid, I forget who told it, I'm sure who was wise <laugh> said, said to me once his definition of boredom was to give an answer, uh, to someone, uh, to a question that they're not asking. That's a rule of thumb in teaching, you know, is if ever you're giving an answer to a question that no one is asking, or you're boring them. Right. So in teaching, that means you gotta provoke the question first. Right. But I think in another sense, the boredom you're referring to is kind of more of a, it has to do more, I think, with the, the futility of action or, or something like where it's, you know, there's not something exciting and motivating about, uh, about my life, about, uh, a course of action I might pursue.
Speaker 0 00:24:51 Um, so it's not an attractive life or an attractive course of action, whatever it might be. And I think there's various reasons that might, you know, someone might come to that conclusion. It could be, um, well, if, if, uh, if I see a, a possible way of life as, um, being miserable, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> or not leading to a kind of, uh, piece and a sense of accomplishment, fulfillment, then of course it's not gonna be a a, a life worth pursuing. It'll be boring in that way. Doesn't amount to anything. It doesn't build anything. What's interesting is to me, I mean, the Christian life on my assessment is the only not boring life. I mean, this is the life that promises that all that we do will come to fruition and fulfillment and have an eternal purpose or significance. I recall, you know, when I was, uh, first kind of grappling with the faith and, and, um, kind of my own initial conversion, deeper conversion to the faith, one of my reflections was actually kind of mercantile.
Speaker 0 00:25:54 It was kind of simplistic, but it was, uh, the question I asked myself is, what is worth investing your life in? You know, what actually has, has significance, a payoff? Right. Kind of a crude way to put it, but, you know, it's, it's a kind of existential question we all face at some point in our life, especially when we encounter the reality of death. Uh, the, the kind of failures we encounter, uh, professionally or in our, in our, even in our scholarship or studies. Um, when we encounter these difficulties, you might think, Well, my life is really kind of futile. You know, it's not accomplishing something. And, you know, that's, that's a boring life. You know, a life that doesn't amount to anything. It's not moving towards anywhere. It has no dramatic form. Right. It's just stuck. And really life apart from the hope of the gospel is stuck. It's, uh, you know, it's a, uh, a brief moment where you do something and then it's over and there's what is there to show, you know, what is it a show for your striving? It's, uh,
Speaker 2 00:27:02 You know, it's a theme from Ecclesia es. Right. It's like you build up and another one takes down what all of our work Yeah. Certain vanity of vanities, vanity
Speaker 0 00:27:11 Vanities. Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:27:12 Right. Um, you know, the greatest learning we have will, will, will pass all these different elements. There is something that's passing about human right achievements. Right. You know, thus passes the glory of the world.
Speaker 0 00:27:25 And the beauty, and the beauty of Christ's gospel. One of the beautiful aspects of it is that he gives our life a dramatic form, that has a real trajectory, something that will last, something that will endure, something that can be built up in us, uh, unto eternal life. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:27:44 Can you say more about what you mean by dramatic form?
Speaker 0 00:27:47 Sure. So, well, I I I take it that, you know, the issue of boredom is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, uh, if you think of a boring movie or a boring, uh, you know, television program, it's something where, you know, there's, there's not a, a clear dramatic form to it. Maybe the plot's not advancing at a pace that can sustain your attention. This doesn't seem to be going somewhere. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, characters are uninteresting, for whatever reason, a dramatic form. By that I just mean that there's a, there is a, uh, there is something to strive for, and it has a purpose and can, can build towards some kind of resolution. And that's what our Lord enables for our life. By giving us the hope of eternal life and crowning our strivings, uh, by his grace, our grace strivings, crowning it with glory, so that everything that we do in this life can have an eternal significance if done, uh, for his sake and empowered by his grace.
Speaker 0 00:28:46 You know? So, I mean, one way to to look at it is, um, you know, I, I think that there's sometimes a misconception that heaven is entirely egalitarian, you know? And, and of course that's true in a way, you know, uh, everyone in heaven is perfectly loved by God and perfectly happy. But, you know, the, the Lord tells us that, you know, the last will be first, first will be last. And he tells us that, you know, our mansions prepared and great will be the reward. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there's a differentiation of rewards. And, uh, and so, which is to say that, that here and now we're engaged in a dramatic pursuit of growing our capacity to enjoy heaven. And some, uh, by the grace of God are more able to enjoy that fruition, that perfect vision of God than others. You know, Saint I believe is, uh, stre, Sue has his beautiful image of, of the souls, of the, the saints being different cups of various sizes. And in, in heaven, every cup is filled to the brim, all that it could possibly hold, But some cups are bigger than others. And so let's just say that our, our strivings in this life are actually building, preparing our hearts for the perfect, um, the perfect enjoyment of God in heaven through a perfect, uh, beatifying activity. And so everything in our life can actually be directed to that purpose and have an eternal payoff. It's not all vain.
Speaker 2 00:30:11 Yeah. Yeah. That's really beautiful. And it's interesting that you talk about that dramatic form that we're see ourselves as part of a story. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and in a way, when you think about watching a movie, almost the definition of a bad movie is one where you check your watch. Yeah. You know, a a a good movie is when you're disappointed it's over. Uh, and the same kind of thing with a book. You know, if you, if you have trouble finishing it, it's not a great book. Whereas a good book is the one you want to keep going on. And it's interesting, uh, Gerald Tolkien in a, an essay he wrote called Unfair Stories, um, he actually says, Right, good stories are ones where you want them to continue, you want to live in them. And then he says, The gospel is that great story.
Speaker 2 00:30:53 Yeah. Right. There's a reason why some people, if you're familiar with the Bible, the book of Acts doesn't have an ending. It just kind of wanders off in, in chapter 28, I believe. You know, it just mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's like it doesn't have an ending, because in a way, we pick up that story. Right. And so we discover in ourselves that story, and all of a sudden then we can recognize that we're like those people in that, watching that fun movie where I don't have to check my watch. Yeah. Because every day is a great adventure. And I think, you know, what, you're talking a little bit about this theme of, you know, boredom. When we don't have the right questions, it reminds me, you know, a question, uh, can be seen is something really we seek. And if you go back behind question to the notion of Quest, all the great stories that there needs to be a quest. And so what I sometimes think, in a way, people think that Christian life is the good life, the peaceful life, but they forget that it's the adventurous life. It's really Right. The great adventure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So how would you, you know, I think you did a great job of seeing how we discover our life has meaning, but how is the Christian life also this kind of thrilling adventure?
Speaker 0 00:32:10 Well, that's a great question. Um, uh, and I wanna get to it in just a second. But, but your comment about, um, about the beauty of the, of the great story and the, the, the dramatic narrative of our faith, it was brought home to me by an experience. I just wanna share real quickly. Yeah, please. I was visiting American University back in the year of faith many years ago, and was reaching out to this, uh, this association of students was an atheist and rationalists student organization. And I just reached out to them asking if they'd like to speak with a, a Catholic fryer, you know, on the off chance they'd be open to it. Yeah. They invited me to come, and I was, and I was speaking with these two atheist students, and they said to me, You know, Father, the story of Christianity, the story of God who becomes man who out of love for his creation, his creatures, uh, gives his life and dies for their sake, and then triumphs over for death.
Speaker 0 00:33:11 They said, they admitted to me, They said, It really is the greatest story you could conceive. You know, it really is. Wow. And they said, There's no question that it's, it's shaped Western civilization ever since it's been told. We just don't believe it's true. And, and I thought, Well, let's talk about that. Well, let's talk about that. But it was even there, there was a recognition that this is a beautiful theo drama. There was something attractive to them even there that we could talk about. Well, it is true. There's reasons to believe it's true. This is for you, this is your story. Um, but to get to the point of, of seeing our life as, as brought into that story and as an adventure, um, I think we have to see that we are, uh, we are engaged in a kind of battle, you know, engaged in, in a mission that that's fraught with challenge and trial and tribulation.
Speaker 0 00:34:02 All the elements of a great quest and epic, um, that the Lord and the Lord permits us to, to live amidst these trials. And he permits them as St. Thomas would say precisely so that we might merit victory with Christ and merit eternal glory, that we might have the glory mm-hmm. <affirmative> of triumphing over these trials and tribulations, which the Lord and his mercy permits us to experience. Mm-hmm. And so there's a beautiful, uh, challenge to us in, in an adventure, Of course, it's very mundane at times. Like these trials are not so glamorous. Right. They can be very simple forms of suffering, hidden forms of suffering, hidden trials that no one else can see. But when seen through the eyes of faith and in light of Christ and his re the drama of salvation, we can see that we actually are entering into the great drama of the Lord's work in his creation, uh, preparing ourselves for eternal glory and participating in his triumph over sin, suffering and death.
Speaker 2 00:35:07 Yeah. So in that sense, our, it's not just, I mean, maybe our sufferings or rejections, uh, mistakes. I mean, just think how much I I I hate being wrong. Yeah. Most of us, I think, hate trying to do the best we can and then realizing I messed that up. But, but somehow that according Right. You know, to what really Christ somehow shows is it somehow through the suffering mm-hmm. <affirmative> that we, we move to glory, Right. Through the death we go to the resurrection. So in that sense, it's not that Christianity means we won't suffer, but it means that none of our sufferings are in vain. Right. Suffering now can be as it's been the instrument of redemption in Jesus Christ and of a new creation in His resurrection. So in us, it has meaning and purpose.
Speaker 0 00:36:02 Exactly. And that's, that is the profound, uh, and terrifying and beautiful mystery of the cross. You know, the Lord has saved us by inviting us into his own salic mission, that we might carry our cross with him, that we might mm-hmm. <affirmative> encounter him in on Calvary. And that, that the Lord in his, in his mercy, you know, desires for us to, to know him on, on calvary, to know him there. Yeah. And, and this is, you know, it's a, it's a, uh, it's a mystery and I said a terrifying mystery at times, but it's one in which, uh, great, great triumph and great glory is to be found. And the fact of the matter is, you know, you will suffer whether you're Christian or not, you know, you're going to suffer whether you're Christian or not, whether you find Christianity boring. Okay. Well, you're still gonna suffer. Yeah. You know, and the good news is there's, there is, there is good to be found. You know, the Lord is up to something and, and your suffering is not meaningless. It, it has a purpose.
Speaker 2 00:37:09 That's really beautiful. And Father, when you were speaking with some of our students earlier, you give a beautiful image and insight into heaven, uh, that I just wanted to share, uh, where you said heaven is not just coming into God's presence, having him say, you know, seeing in a way Right. Christ in you, and then saying, Right, well done, my good and faithful servant come and, uh, share your master's joy, and then you run off. Right. It's actually hearing that for all eternity. For all eternity, that well done, my good and faithful servant come and share your master's joy. And, and it's like when we hear that, what would be more glorious than to hear a God of the universe Right. Who has of course entered into the world through his son Jesus Christ and redeemed us. But to say that, to hear that, and, and in somehow that, and just be in that moment, it would be that kind of great consummation of all of our deepest longings. And and I think there's something really powerful about that vision of heaven as thrilling.
Speaker 0 00:38:17 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, and there's a, a twofold mystery there where we have both the, the, the delight of being, of perceiving this, this divine perfect observation from the Father forever. Right. This is, as I was saying to the students earlier, this kind of, uh, idea that in some ways the last judgment is not over and done with, but actually is essential to our be attitude. The Lord's saying, Well done. You know, to have to be eternally, to be eternally told that by your father.
Speaker 2 00:38:50 Yes. We're not, we're not capable, like, we're not sufficient unto ourselves. Right. So we need not only to know and love God, we also need to hear, hear and receive God's knowledge and love and delight in us. Exactly right. We're not alone in heaven. We're kind of Yeah. You know, we're taken up into God's arms.
Speaker 0 00:39:11 Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, I think sometimes people hear of the beatific vision and they just imagine, you know, turning on the God channel and just kind of sitting back and like marveling. Well, it's, no, it's God's. It's you seeing God seeing you with perfect delight. Yeah. You're delighting God perfectly. God is delighting in you, his gift in you. So, so there's that aspect of, of the, the marvelous mystery of, of, of our, you know, eternal be attitude. And the other part of it is that we are actually still agents in heaven. You know, uh, our perfect happiness is born of an activity mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Right. We're, we're agents. We're active in heaven. And it's, it's a beatifying action that is, uh, that is at, at the heart of our, of our, um, be it life. And of course, you know, what form that action takes in, in the kingdom is mysterious to us.
Speaker 0 00:40:02 We don't know exactly what it will be, but we do know that whatever we do will be an action that perfectly gives glory to God and manifests our own goodness and glory. And if you think about anything in your life that you've, that you've done that you've, you know, when you did it, you were like, I'm really glad I did that. You know, like, that was a moment where I did the right thing and I felt, you know, like I, I, I did something noble and now I can look at myself, and at least I see that, you know, I hope, I hope everyone has some moment where they, you know, have that beautiful gift from the Lord of being inspired to do something noble, maybe the difficult circumstance. And they can recall that with gratitude to God, they were able to do that. You know, this is whatever, whatever that, you know, that that joy, that kind of piece that that deed gave to you is destined to be perfectly fulfilled in heaven of kind of joy and a peace which you couldn't fathom of, of, of doing something noble forever and being perfectly united to God who is, who is working in and through you for all eternity.
Speaker 0 00:41:06 Yeah. It's a great mystery. You know, it's, it's kind of like, you know, the more you describe it, the more you, you, you, you don't do it justice. Yeah. But, uh, but certainly we're made for that glory.
Speaker 2 00:41:17 And, you know, maybe one thing to think a little bit about is this idea that, you know, I wonder how much sometimes Christians maybe over the last couple centuries have for whatever reason failed to talk enough about this theme of glory mm-hmm. <affirmative> where we sometimes people have turned Christianity into kind of a moral of faith. Um, maybe you can see a little bit of this, like in Charles Dickens, a Christmas carol where there's the great character has a great conversion at Christmas to become a decent human being and to share his wealth mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, but there's no incarnation. Right. There are no angels, they're ghosts. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So we turn Christianity into kind of becoming a better person in this life, which is certainly a good thing. Right? Right. But it's not Christianity. Right. Right. Christianity really is this promise of glory. And I think in a way over the last couple centuries, there have been attempts to represen Christianity in terms of earthly terms.
Speaker 2 00:42:14 And so I don't know if you kind of, how you could talk about how do we try to recover a vibrant sense of glory, uh, you know, that makes it all worthwhile. I mean, I think it's, uh, uh, Paul and Romans eight, he says, Right, I count as nothing as the sufferings of the world compared to the glory that is to be revealed in us. So presumably then mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the sacrifices I will experience in this life, and perhaps the extra sacrifices I may experience by trying to live a life in accord with God's plan. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and obviously the, all the sacrifices associated in recognizing the ways in which I mess up God's plan mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> and return to him, that those become worth it because I have a vibrant sense mm-hmm. <affirmative> right. Of the glory that awaits. It's like, you can people train today because they wanna be healthy. Right. They wanna run the marathon so they train, they wanna live a little longer so they eat better. Um, it's because they have Avi and I just, I don't know how to, how, how do you feel like we can go about trying to help people recover? So like the, the glory of heaven is almost like touchable and tangible. Right. And it gives meaning and purpose to each day of our lives.
Speaker 0 00:43:29 Yeah. It's a great question. I do think that I have encountered something similar where we're all, you know, sometimes people see the, uh, the, the Christian life as primarily just avoiding certain sins, right? Yes. It's kind of a negative, you know, just doing X, avoiding Y and that's kind of the whole of it. And, and that's, and that's, there's really no, like, I, like we were talking earlier, no dramatic form to that kind of life. You're just, you know, either you're, you're, you're on this side of ledger, on the other side of Ledger. And, and the, the beautiful truth is that the Lord has desire so much more for us. He actually wants us to, to grow in a supernatural life here and now. Mm-hmm. So that we can, we can live that perfect life of glory in the life to come, which is to say that you have, uh, a mission here and now and a purpose and a, a, a opportunity to grow in Christ's own life.
Speaker 0 00:44:23 I think one important thing that maybe, you know, uh, a theological truth of our faith that sometimes is neglected is that, that by virtue of of faith and baptism, you have been united to Christ such that his spirit really does dwell in you by sanctifying grace. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that has given you now the, the dignity of acting in Christ's name. You know, if you think about it, you are, every Christian is a vicar of Christ in a way. You know, you are an emissary as a member of his body, uh, which is a very noble dignity that you possess, you know? Um, and, you know, of course we nev none of us live up to that perfectly mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but the Lord doesn't retract it, you know, he's not, he doesn't negate
Speaker 2 00:45:13 It. Yeah. And, and I think, I think it's Aquinas that says that faith is the beginning of eternal life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Right. And so maybe in part it's that when people think about the glory of heaven is only something that begins in the future, and I have to sacrifice now in order to get it, then it begins to seem less real over time. But that's not really the classic mm-hmm. <affirmative> Catholic vision. Right. That Aquinas unfolds, we're actually eternal. Life is beginning in us right now. Heaven is beginning in us right now because we can experience today that fear that really the words of of our father and heaven who can say, Right, this is my beloved son in whom my soul delights. Right. As he said to his son at the baptism. And he says to us and our baptisms, Right. So if we recover a sense of our right becoming children of God mm-hmm. <affirmative>, then we can actually experience some of the joy and peace and adventure that heaven promises already in this life and in that sense, right. I can be, I can find meaning and purpose today and and that's priceless.
Speaker 0 00:46:22 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And of course, you know, it will, whatever I imperfect happiness we enjoy here and now will pale in comparison to what's to come we like. That's absolutely. Yes. That's, that's true. Um, but certainly it's the case though that we have, we have been given the, the by grace, the, the glory of a good conscience of St. Thomas would say the, the peace and, and the, the joy of knowing that we're loved by God and that we are in relationship with him, which already gives a forte then of that joy, a
Speaker 2 00:46:58 Joy forever. And that for taste in a way is that sense of God delighting in us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it's interesting, Right. In the Bible, it's Satan, that's the accuser. Right. And it's the Holy Spirit, that's the advocate. And by the way, Christ says that, I'm gonna send you another advocate. So he's our advocate. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, so the Holy Spirit and Christ are not coming into the world to say shame on you mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but to say shame off you.
Speaker 0 00:47:24 Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:47:25 Right. To so that we can feel that we could stand, God already sees us anyway, uh, Right. But that God sees us and loves us. Uh, you were talking earlier a little bit about Christ, um, seeing us in a way on the cross, and I know, you know, the catechism speaks about that idea that Christ on the cross sees each of us and loves each of us individually. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, we may skip over that and think, Oh, he loves me the way my mom loves me, but my mom doesn't really know how nasty I am or something like that. But no, Jesus sees us and he's on the cross dying because he sees just how broken and wounded we are. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and at the same time loves us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I think there's a real deep need for us to kind of rediscover in a strange way.
Speaker 2 00:48:17 Right. Our lovableness, and this is not, um, Right. This is not accidental to the gospel. Right. Cuz we can't love our neighbor unless we love ourself. And so we have to somehow learn to love ourself, which we can only do if we first recognize God loves us. Right. Uh, so, uh, there's a lot of, um, real, uh, you know, just, I guess there's a lot of glory in that and, um, very, you know, thankful for the time you've had with us. Before we close, I wanna ask you three questions Okay. Kind of quickly, and you can give me just three quick answers. Okay. Uh, and so the first one is, what's something you've been reading lately, uh, that, that you really enjoy?
Speaker 0 00:48:53 Great question. So I am preparing a few courses. Uh, they'll be teaching in the fall. And, uh, I've been reading this, this fasting book. He's actually not a Catholic but, uh, end by NT Wright. Uh, he's Anglican, um, uh, bishop called Simply Jesus. And in that book, he presents, I think, a really beautiful historical argument for the credibility of the resurrection. Um, which I think is very apologetically useful. So if you're interested in, in a, a kind of concise and compelling historical argument for, for the, the credibility of the resurrection of the Son of God, nnc Right. Has some really great worthwhile things to say. And so, uh, I was just, you know, I'm finding it to be quite interesting. I'm gonna
Speaker 2 00:49:41 Use it simply Jesus. Yeah. That's excellent. Uh, second question, what's a practice you do on a daily basis? All right. That helps you draw closer to God?
Speaker 0 00:49:53 I find that inter accessory prayer, uh, really helps me, in particular in just growing in charity in general. So, uh, I find when I have, uh, people on my heart that, that are, that I'm praying for whose, whose needs, I'm aware of who I'm mm-hmm. <affirmative> I'm offering to the father and trying to bring before the father. I find that it, it's really helps my whole prayer life.
Speaker 2 00:50:19 That's wonderful. And finally, what's one truth that you've discovered about God that has changed your life?
Speaker 0 00:50:27 Wow, <laugh>. Uh, there's quite a few <laugh>, but I suppose the core one is that, um, that he will never give up on me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that, you know, no matter how I, uh, perceive my own weakest, I'm not as perfect as I want to be. That yes, he's, I'm still his.
Speaker 2 00:50:47 That's great. Well, Father, would you, uh, lead us with, uh, the glory B of
Speaker 0 00:50:52 Course, and the father's Son the Holy Spirit? Amen. Glory B to the Father and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit
Speaker 2 00:50:59 As it was in the beginning, is now a never shall be world of that end. Amen. Amen. Thank you very much, Father, for just a wonderful exploration of the theme of glory. Uh, this our theme of this beautiful prayer Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, and just kind of a, a, a great way to really remember the great gifts we have right in our faith and the great adventure that's before us each day. So thank you again, Father Dominic, for being on a show.
Speaker 0 00:51:26 Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 00:51:28 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our enunciation circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
