Speaker 0 00:00:00 When talking, and Lewis used the word myth, they don't mean it in the modern sense of something which is untrue. A lie. We talk about something being a myth as being a lie. They never use it in that sense. A myth is a story. And that the ancient myths, the ancient stories, were ways that people before Christ were searching for truth and for God. And he said the gospel is a, a myth like all the others, except it's the true myth. It's the myth that really happened where the author is not a human storyteller, but God himself.
Speaker 2 00:00:33 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Dine, and today I am joined by, uh, colleague and friend, uh, Joseph Pierce, uh, who is, uh, the author of a wonderful, uh, book by Tan Publishing called Further Up and Further in Understanding Narnia, welcome to the show. It's
Speaker 0 00:00:57 Good to be here.
Speaker 2 00:00:57 Glad to have you on the show. And, uh, glad to have you this semester, uh, teaching at Amar University for a limited basis. Uh,
Speaker 0 00:01:04 It's good to, it's good to be back. I was, uh, obviously I was here for many years and yes, uh, in the past, and it's good to have to renew that relationship.
Speaker 2 00:01:11 Excellent. Glad that's, uh, we're very excited too. And, uh, so I've been really, uh, excited by this book that came out, uh, a couple years ago, and I've, ever since I read it, I've been looking forward to getting a chance to talk to you about it. Uh, as, as our listeners, uh, know, I teach a course and have taught a course on, uh, the Chronicles of Narnia and CS Lewis and his theological apologetics, uh, for, you know, over a dozen years at Ave Maria. And, uh, when I read this book, uh, it was just a delight, uh, to see, I think two things that really struck me. One was just a lover of, uh, Lewis and a lover of Narnia. And Lewis describes friendship one time where he says that, uh, where he says, it's like lovers look face-to-face, but friends stand side by side looking at something.
Speaker 2 00:02:02 And he describes, uh, one of his friends as kind of like, oh, you too love this. And so I feel like those who, uh, love Narnia are, are always dear friends. And then secondly, one of the things I loved is that you can always learn more. And, and I know I learned a lot more in reading this book, and I hope that our listeners, and just to be clear too, uh, these are both, you know, today's talk is, uh, for those who may have read the Narnia stories, and I think they can learn more, but they're also, especially for those who haven't read the Narnia stories, and perhaps a way of kind of understanding them and understanding a little bit about Lewis, uh, and, and what he wanted to teach. So, just for starters, you know, kind of that big question, right? Why Narnia, you know, why is Narnia worth talking about and studying?
Speaker 0 00:02:52 Well, uh, I will get to the question just a moment, but I want to first of all say that, um, I'm very gratified to know that, uh, uh, theology professor of your caliber has taught whole courses on Lewis, uh, and can find something new and refreshing and enjoyable in, in my, uh, my book. So I feel vindicated <laugh>. So, so, so thank you for that. Well, I mean, the, the, the most important thing is that, um, we, the literature allow allows us to, to see reality on a deeper level. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we have to realize that we can't even read scripture unless we read, literally, reading literally does not enable us to understand non-fiction. You know, and certainly scripture, which is not non-fiction, not purely non-fiction, it's, it's, it's poetry, uh, it's praise, it's mysticism as well as history. So you have to read, uh, uh, Thomas Aquinas tells us on, on, on four distinct levels, the literal level, but then three separate allegorical levels, which are literary levels.
Speaker 0 00:03:46 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So reading Litera reality allows us to see how words signifies something beyond themselves. So when we, when we look at naia, we're not just looking at a fictional fantasy world that has no relationship at all to our own world. It actually holds up a mirror to the cosmos in which we find ourselves talking, says in this famous lecture on fairy stories, that fairy stories hold up a mirror to man. They show our ourselves. So when we, when we read naia, it allows us, if you like, by going through the wardrobe into this world to actually go deeper into the world in which we find ourself. That's the paradox.
Speaker 2 00:04:18 Wow. Um, that's really, well, that's kind of just powerfully put. And it reminds me, I think in the story, or in your book, you mentioned, uh, the parable of the prodigal sun. Uh, how does the parable and the prodigal sun, right. Which didn't happen. Tell us about reality.
Speaker 0 00:04:34 Yeah, I mean, that's a perfect example, if you like, of, of the power of literature. Prodigal Sun as a character is a fictional character. He's a figment of our lord's imagination. The narrative is a fictional narrative. You know, the alsan didn't exist, his brother didn't exist, uh, his father didn't exist, the pigs didn't exist. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the service didn't exist. It's a, it's a fictional narrative, but it's, it teaches us so much about ourselves. The natural fact. We don't, when we, when we hear or read the story of the prodigal son, we don't say the prodigal son is like us. We say we are like the prodigal son. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, in other words, this fictional character that Christ presents to us is more real in some sense than we are, because he's the archetype of which we are types mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So Christ himself, if you like, sanctify story in the telling of story.
Speaker 0 00:05:19 And, and, and we can certainly see how great truths can emerge through fictional narratives. And, and Christ is our teacher in this, so we shouldn't be surprised. Yeah. When we, when we step through a wardrobe. So stepping through the wardrobe into naa, which is the first time we enter NAA is, you know, is with Lucia. She walks through this wardrobe and discovers this world. Every time we open a great book, every time we open the line of which an wardrobe was stepping into a wardrobe, cause it's taking us, you know, out of ourselves and into something which now enable us to understand ourselves, our neighbors, and our God and our relationship with each other on a much deeper level.
Speaker 2 00:05:53 Yeah. And I think when we, one of the things I appreciate about the book was, was that by talking a little bit about, say, the parable of the prodigal son and these other ones, it kind of like disarms us from letting go of maybe that prejudice we might have against fantasy literature, fairy tales, uh, fiction. Because if we talk about the Prodigal son being the reality from which we learn to judge ourselves, and we recognize what is our Lord doing? Well, our Lord is saying, you can't see yourself very clearly. Right. Uh, unfortunately, our ego blinds us not only to God. Right. It edges God out of the picture. It also blinds us to ourselves. Yes. Right. And, and we can see this in part, right. That's the, the problem with the elder son. The elder son is blind to the fact that Right. He too is dependent upon the father's generosity.
Speaker 2 00:06:44 Uh, but when we do that, then we can begin to say in a way that, I don't know how to put it otherwise, would almost sound scandalous to say that Narnia becomes kind of a reality, a greater reality by which we can judge ourselves and judge our lives. So maybe if you could say a little bit more just about Tolkien and Lewis and how they indi how did, how, how they came to this understanding, right. That fantasy and fairy stories actually could help us see ourselves and see the world maybe, and ultimately see God better than we could without those stories.
Speaker 0 00:07:22 Well, the best way of, of, of talking about that is to actually talk about the way that Tolkin and Lewis talked about it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so it was because of what I call Tokis philosophy of myths. So unpacking that philosophy, the love of wisdom to be found in stories, right? Mm-hmm. Philosophy of myth, when we must understand, when talking, and Lewis used the word myth, they don't mean it in the modern sense of something which is untrue, A lie. We talk about something being a myth as being a lie. They never use it in that sense. A myth is a story. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, now a story can either tell the truth or it can of course weave a lie. But, um, Lewis said, but myths are, are lies and therefore worthless, even though breathed through silver. In other words, we like them because they're beautiful, but they don't tell us the truth.
Speaker 0 00:08:04 And therefore, ultimately, in the, in the bigger scheme of things, they're worthless. And this was like, you know, a red rag to a bull to Tolkin who responded, no, they're not lies. And he basically said that we understand, uh, reality through stories, and that the ancient myths, the ancient stories were ways that people before Christ were searching for Christ, searching for, for truth and for God. And then he said, which is sounds radical and, and shocking, and he said, the gospel is a, a myth like all the others, except it's the true myth. It's the myth that really happened where the author is not a human storyteller, but God himself, who tells the story not with words, but with facts, and ultimately enters the story himself. So, in other words, it's the fulfillment of all myth, of all story, just as the Old Testament is a fulfillment, uh, of the covenant, and it comes to fruition and fulfillment in Christ. Well, the, the, the, the gospel is also the fulfillment of all stories. And it contains, uh, the desire of, of how we want things to be, how, what things should be, uh, in relation to how they actually are, and allows us to go deeper into reality. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So for, for Toki, you know, that, that the gospel is the true story.
Speaker 2 00:09:15 Yes. And, uh, there is that beautiful, and it's, it's a beautiful fact and a beautiful thing that we have witnessed in letters because Lewis, I think, who probably in 1929 or so, has a conversion to theism, to believing in God. Uh, a year or two later, probably 1931 in the fall, he has this late night conversation with, uh, his friend Dyson and Tok. They're up till 3:00 AM, uh, in Oxford. And he records that conversation where he, he somehow was able to break through the idea that he loved myths and stories, and he loved truth, but he could never put them together. And he certainly didn't see them together in the story of Jesus Christ until Toki said, wait a second. That's exactly what has happened. Uh, and we can see it in part in, say, even in John one 14, right? In the beginning was the word, the logos.
Speaker 2 00:10:07 John one 14 says that, right. The logos was made flesh, the word was made flesh, the logos was made. Sars, when the logos, the principle of God's reason by which God creates the universe, that same reason actually right. Becomes flesh, becomes human, has a story. Right. Uh, and if you see in the creed, it's not merely right. Jesus saves us. It's that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. We have to tell the story. Right. We even include odd things like he was, you know, crucified under a punched pilot. Right? Right. He's entered fully into our history. So the fact that God becomes man is really the idea that the truth becomes, story becomes myth. It's interesting too that I think when Lewis, uh, initially said that quote, I think he was still in his, uh, kind of Preconversion stage.
Speaker 2 00:11:05 Uh, and as he writes and surprised by Joy, his own autobiography, as you know, he describes in a way that he had two huge loves, really before he comes back to, before he becomes a Christian. In his atheist days is, on the one hand, he's somewhat convinced and he had done his degrees in his first degree in philosophy. He somewhat convinced that there is some kind of absolute, uh, he calls it a new look, but it's whether or not it's a Hegelian absolute. But there's some kind of absolute principle behind the universe, philosophically. But he said, that principle makes no demands on you. It really, you know, it, it doesn't kind of challenge you, it doesn't call you. Uh, and then at the same time, he had another love that he'd always had in his whole life, just a love of great stories, uh, the Norse tales, uh, these wonderful stories that inspired him.
Speaker 2 00:11:59 And so he kind of had his, almost like his head and his hearts divorced from one another. His love of philosophy and his love of story, romanticism, irrationalism, were bifurcated in his soul. And in part, Toan showed him that you could unite those both on the natural level because stories contain truths. And then at the supernatural level, because the story of Jesus Christ contains the greatest truth that we need to know. Uh, so I think it's also important to see that. Right. Lewis didn't just come to this understanding easily. Yeah. Right. He really wrestled with it for many years, and in some ways, you know, but for the grace of God and, but for friends like Tok Yep. Um, you know, he may have never been able to overcome that bifurcated soul. Right.
Speaker 0 00:12:48 I mean, he, he shows the power of friendship, right? Yes. Uh, the power of friendship and reason. So that, that, that meeting September, 1931 mm-hmm. Within two weeks of that, that Lewis, so Lewis says, miss Eli, therefore worthless. And then two weeks later, uh, re recounting the conversation with, with, with, with Tolkin and, and their friend Hugo Dyson. So I've definitely, uh, begun to believe in the Christian garden, a long night talk with Tolkin and Dyson has a great deal to do with it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we should say, backed up a little bit cuz you talk about the, the, the conversion from atheism to theism Yeah. On as, as a, as a, a movement towards ultimate conversion Yeah. To Christianity that it, it was when, um, Lewis read Chester's, the Everlasting Man in 1926, I think a year after it was published, he said, I've, I saw the Christian outline of history laid out before me for the first time in a way that made sense. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I think that we have Chesterton also who's also a significant influence on talking to thank for nudging Lewis in the right direction, where he would then be receptive to talking's line of reasoning.
Speaker 2 00:13:48 Sure. And, and in some ways, uh, uh, kind of a bigger picture as that Lewis was influenced by his friends Dyson and Tolkien, but also in a way, this friendship that he could have with Chesterton, which was not personal, but it was personal through his writings. Yes. So, uh, maybe that's a way of thinking a little bit about writing and reading as expanding our friendships. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:14:11 I mean, I sometimes say that most of my best friends are dead because my closest friends are, are, are my favorite writers. And Lewis in Surprise Boy, joy speaks about, uh, his reading of Chester as a relationship and as a friendship, even though they never met, um, they, Lou Chester became a friend of Lewis's, right? Yeah. Through his books mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:14:28 <affirmative>. So, uh, as a fellow, I mean, you're a, uh, an an author of many books. And what led you to decide to try to write a book on Narnia?
Speaker 0 00:14:40 Well, I mean, I didn't actually read the NAIA stories for the first time until I was a grownup. Uh, and my, my, my initial idea for the title of the book was Narnia for Grownups. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and thankfully the publisher Nicks that idea. Cause I like, I like the one, the the title they came up with better. But, um, you know, I, I read it as an adult and I, I be, and it was part of my journey towards conversion mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it was clear to me that this, these, although these are children's stories, they're awash with the philosophical and theological and historically insights. And so, you know, the, it's, we can't just read these, uh, as sort of naive works of children's literature. They're much more than that. They are that, uh, no, not naive, but they're great works of children's literature mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, but they, they also teach us more. And they, that's why all of us should be rereading NAA throughout our lives, not think where their children's books, I, I left that, I'm left that in the nursery. You know, I'm not interested in returning No. If you want to really go deeper into your understanding of your faith, there are few better places to go, quite frankly, than to go into NAA with CS Lewis.
Speaker 2 00:15:41 So within that, uh, let's, uh, take up one of the great questions. The character of Aslan, right. Lewis would insist that Aslan is not an allegory of Christ, and yet most readers Right. See Christ in Aslan. Uh, and it's clear that in many ways, Lewis's, you know, Aslan is, is Christ. So how is Aslan both not Christ and Christ?
Speaker 0 00:16:13 Yeah. But the first thing we have to do is clarify the way that Lewis and Tolkin use the word allegory, because they don't use it in the same way all the time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So when they, when they say that the, that na is not allegory, Aslan's not an allegorical, middle earth is not an allegory. They're using allegory in a very strict formal sense, uh, in the sense that, uh, a formatically has personified abstractions. So an example of a personified abstraction in Lewis' work, um, which might remind us of Bunion PGA's progress, is, uh, there's, um, there's a monster called the Spirit of the Age. And this monster called the Spirit of the Age. This is in his book, um, PGA's Regress, this monster called The Spirit of the Age Imprisons people. Right. They can't escape from this evil spirit, but then this beautiful woman is shining, arm comes along, and her name is Reason.
Speaker 0 00:16:59 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. And Reason has two younger, two youngest sisters, uh, uh, theology and philosophy. Right. So this is solidified distractions, reason doesn't have a personality, because reason is not a person. It's a, it's not, it's a, uh, an ab an abstract idea reason itself personified, uh, as a, as a woman. So Aslan's not that what, uh, Lewis would say about Azlan is he's a proposal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> would be the word that Lewis would use. So let's suppose that God makes other cosmos, right. And let's suppose that in one of these, uh, that what we would call animals that look like animals are actually rational beings. And if these animals are rational beings, how might God, uh, manifest himself, incarnation to them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, well, the, so the King of the Beasts, right? So, uh, as, as this lion, there's also, you know, typological connection Lion of Judah to the Old Testament as well. But, um, so, so for Lewis, uh, Aslan's not a personified abstraction of Jesus Christ, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he's a re presentation of Jesus Christ based upon a proposal. Um, but those, those fine distinctions aside, he is the son of God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it may manifest incarnation in all seven of the stories. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So to see Aslan as a quest figure is, is something that cannot really be denied, you know?
Speaker 2 00:18:21 Yeah. It's, it's, I remember reading, uh, one author who noted that, although, again, it's not a personified abstraction or personification of an abstraction. Right. Uh, in some ways, Lewis has done more because he's actually written a book. Right. In a great story in which God becomes incarnate. Yes. Right. He, he, it's, it's not as though Aslan is simply representing Christ, but Aslan is the incarnate salvific Lord. And then all of a sudden we realize in a way, like, whoa. I mean, when I look at Narnia, I'm not only learning more about myself or learning more about the world around me, or just the general idea of a creator, uh, through this fictional story, I actually can, in a strange way, learn more about the reality of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 0 00:19:18 Amen. And so, you used to look at the line in which wardlow, but the first of the books written, you know, we see that Aslan lays down his life for the sinners, for Edmund in particular. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, because it's the innocent victim. This is wonderful thing about the difference between, uh, justice and mercy. Right. Which takes us much deeper into the mystery of it, because Yes, the, the white witch says that, you know, that, that every, uh, evil, uh, evil action, um, she has a right through justice mm-hmm. <affirmative> right to, to, to punish. And I think it's, uh, I think it's Susan that said, well, can't you Aslan can't you bend your own rules? Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Aslan responds by, by growling. Right? Um, uh, and, and he says, no, that, that, that that justice does demand punishment. He said, but that, that, that's, that's that the, the white witch knows this mystery from the beginning of the world, right from the beginning of time.
Speaker 0 00:20:09 He says, but there's a deeper mystery from before the dawn of time mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that deeper wisdom from before the dawn, dawn of time is if an innocent victim willingly lays down his life for the guilty, then, uh, then time itself goes backwards. This deep truth before the dawn of time is mercy. God's mercy. Right. And so we have deep theology here, um, through naia. And the other thing we should say about it, by the way, about the NAIA stories and, and also Lewis's space trilogy, he says that modern modernity, modern man is so ignorant of theology. You can, you can smuggle no end of theology, undercover of romance. So the thing is, of course, we read these as Christians mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, and, and actually, you know, I've read them, first of all, not as a Christian. Okay. And, and, and, and we can get a lot of depth out of them, deepens our faith. But many people who would run a mile, if you try to suggest to open a Bible, will read the lion, which in wardrobe and will be getting Christian truths mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And if they fallen in love with the Christian truths, right. They, they are then already on the path to Christ himself. So it's a great way of evangelizing mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what you might call stealth evangelization.
Speaker 2 00:21:13 And, and I think as part of that, the characters in Narnia are real. Right. They have a kind of reality to their own, you know, Edmond, as you describe, uh, in part you could say, you know, sim or is, is an instance of Right. A sinner, a traitor. But he's also just Edmund, right? He's, he's a young boy, uh, written in a post world war, uh, time, who, as you know, Lewis is writing the story right after World War II in England, who, because he wants more treats, he wants more food, uh, he wants perhaps some kind of, um, you know, treats and hot chocolate that are enchanted. And the more you eat them, the more you want them, and the less satisfied you are, which are a lot of, we have right foods and drinks that, uh, echat, uh, uh, people today. But he's also very relatable because he, and he does end up kind of just through being mad at his older brother, right.
Speaker 2 00:22:17 And annoyed with his younger sister, who's so good and all these other things by being driven by family annoyances, and then this struggle with, you know, um, with almost something like akin to kind of, you know, almost a little bit like addiction or different things. And, uh, Lewis's brother struggled with alcoholism. So we know that Lewis is aware of these phenomena, uh, almost like a relatable character that ends up betraying his siblings to the white witch. But it's like, so I don't, you know, just, that's such a real character. So could you say a little bit more about how maybe characters like Edmond or other characters in the story, uh, it's not just that they, you know, Lewis kind of cr you know, in this world of literature fiction, uh, what Tolkien would call sub creation, that, that it kind of takes on a reality of its own, which then helps us to see things new.
Speaker 0 00:23:10 Absolutely. So the difference between Edmund, for instance, and the character of reason in, in the p regress, the reason is two dimensional, uh, reason has no personality, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Edmond has a personality. He's a person. Yeah. So it, it, it's the weakness of the person that leads to the temptation and the succumbment to the temptation, and then the addiction to the sin, and therefore the slavery to the white witch. Yes. Uh, at least to the treachery that, uh, of betraying his own family mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but then there's also, you know, he comes to see the consequence. He also reads as the lie, the white witch is a liar. He, he was believing an illusion. He was deluded through his addiction, comes to his, his senses, and then there's a wonderful confession, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he goes off by himself with azlan and makes the confession.
Speaker 0 00:23:50 Uh, and then in later stories, for instance, in, in, in, in Prince Caspian, you know, Lucy, and again, she's also wonderful, and her name means light, of course, as in St. Lucy being the patron saint of the blind, um, looks the Latin for light, she sees through a simple childlike faith. And when she's the only one that can see azlan, and the other three children can't. Right. The first one that that can see afterwards is Edmund. And the reason for that is that although he can't see Azlan as Lucy can, he has faith that Lucy can see Azlan. And, and the reason he has that faith, because he, he, because he knows where it is not to have it. In other words, he knows the gift that he's been given. And he, he's grateful for that gift. So he said, well, I believe that Lucy can see Azlan even though I can't. And then following that act of faith, he then starts to see Azlan. Right? Yeah. So, uh, we see that the deepening of Edmond as a character through the stories.
Speaker 2 00:24:45 Yeah. That's, uh, powerfully put. Uh, and, you know, maybe if you could say a little bit, also, let's then take the character of Assly. Um, how are, what are some examples where, you know, the character of Assly, again, becomes a real character and, and not, you know, to kind of, not merely a representation of Christ, but a character, uh, that has its his own personality, his own, um, reality.
Speaker 0 00:25:12 Yeah. So, uh, obviously within the, the line in which, in the wardrobe we see the Savo, you know, Aslan has his agony in the garden. He's walks off by himself when the, the two girls follow him, uh, and he knows that they're there, he calls them over and he's comforted by them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, he, it's good for him not to be alone. Uh, you know, this is the eve of his great sacrifice. Um, we also have a sense of humor, uh, you know, at the beginning, um, of magician's nephew, the creation story in the Magician's nephew, you know, um, one of the, one of the talking beast of just created says, you know, have I just told the first joke? And Azlan, you know, says, no, you are the first joke <laugh>. Uh, you know, so you have this sense of humor, and that's very difficult.
Speaker 0 00:25:55 You know, that, that quite Chester watch's not about the, the, this, the secret murth on the face of God, right. That we don't see the smiling God, uh, in scripture very much. But clearly, you know, humor is mark of the imago, mark of the Imago de in us. Humor comes from God. And so, uh, we see that element of, of, of humor and, and gen gentleness and humility in Azlan. So he is an incarnate, uh, if we should lion <laugh>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, but you know, that it's not really, you can't say that cuz he's a, he's an intellectual, rational being. So he mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he's, he looks like a lion, but he's, uh, both the son of God, but also he's one of them. He's one of the talking beasts. Yeah. One of the rational beings. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:26:37 <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. That's, uh, very, you know, very, very helpful. And I think it's interesting that there's a kind of way in which people who have read those stories, you know, even in Edmond's case, which you were describing, cuz Edmond not only right, as a kind of, uh, shows us the prodigal son walking away, but he also shows us kind of the prodigal son returning. Yes. Uh, and there is that great scene when he just goes on looking at Ashlyn. He knows in a way that the witch has the claim to him because he's a traitor, uh, and Right. And he, he can't fix that. All they can do is whatever happens, he goes on looking at Ashlyn. Uh, and in that reality, in that story, it's like all his hope is in Aslan, and that's it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And, and, you know, and, and in a way, Lewis there is kind of showing us, you know, in part what he describes in the whole beginning of, uh, mere Christianity, where he describes that once we discover the moral law, or we become aware of the moral law, we become aware of the fact that we don't keep the moral law.
Speaker 2 00:27:47 Right. Uh, and as he says, God, as the principle of the moral law. Right. The moral laws as tough as nails. Right. And so we're in a dilemma. Right. Without the moral law, there's no hope and no reason for our sacrifices. But with the moral law, we're on the wrong side of it. And so we kind of recognize that. And he says, that's in a way, when we begin to discover ourselves in that situation, then all we can do in a way, then we become ready to hear what Christianity has to teach. And so I think that just that scene of going on, looking at Assly Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:28:21 I've also, I think what you say about hope, uh, that that's all that Edmond has left, right? Mm-hmm. He, he knows he's the miserable sinner. He knows he's the, he's the traitor. He knows he has no rights. Right. He, he, he deserves whatever happens to him, but he doesn't despair. Mm-hmm. Right. Despairs the ultimate sin where you have no hope. He has nothing but hope he stripped bare of everything else. Reminds me an actual fact of Hamlet at the beginning of the play where Hamlet is very despondent mm-hmm. <affirmative> and even sees suicide as a, as, as an option. Yes. And, but, and until his faith says, well, but it's not an option. Cause it's not an escape. You know, what happens after you die? Yeah. You know, he, he knows that the, the God has, has made self slaughter a sin. So he has, he's despondent. He's dejected, but the one thing he still has is hope. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he doesn't despair. Yeah. You know, and it's the absence of despair, hope. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. Which, which, which is the, is the ground zero, which through the grace of Alan Edmond Convoys.
Speaker 2 00:29:17 Well, let's take a little break, and when we come back, let's consider just a few other, uh, maybe key themes or key parts of the stories or characters, uh, that you'd like to share with our listeners.
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Speaker 2 00:30:00 Welcome back. And, uh, we'd love to jump in now to, uh, one of the great characters, uh, that Lewis develops. And as I said, we've talked a little bit about how these characters are so real that they, they take on a life of their own, and we can kind of live with them and, and see the world as they see the world. Uh, Lewis actually would, uh, say one time, uh, that he said, when you read to your children, or if your children read the Chronicles of Narnia, uh, don't tell, don't explain it to them. Uh, just let them enjoy it. And then, you know, he, he even had the hope that later than when maybe when they, or whenever they hear more about Jesus, at some point they'll discover, oh, Jesus is like ashlan. Right. Uh, and therefore, somebody who's exciting and thrilling, as opposed to, he said, one of the hard things he felt as a child right?
Speaker 2 00:30:53 Was that he was, he felt in church he was supposed to have certain emotions of gratitude or love that he couldn't manufacture. They weren't coming, and then he felt awkward. Uh, and so, at least I think this is his way of trying to create that sense of joy and wonder, uh, but looking at one of these great characters. So, let's talk a little bit about yeas scrub, uh, who shows up in the voyage of the Dawn Treader. Uh, and, you know, tells a little bit about maybe at one point he, he becomes a dragon. Right? Uh, what, what, what, what does that mean, and why is it important?
Speaker 0 00:31:28 Yeah. So again, Lewis has his wonderful ability to, to create these, these very memorable characters. And that, that Roger Dawn Tread has one of the most memorable opening lines in literature. So, you know, we think of it was the best at times, it was the worst of tires had the opening line of, of a Tale two cities, but it, it, Voya tread begins with, there was a boy called UTIs, Clarence Club, and he almost deserved it. <laugh>. Yeah. So we, we have humor on the first line, which is good, right. He's got his chuckling, but also the word almost mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, he, he's used to scrub is a mess, but he's a mess because of his parents. You know, we learn something about his parents. We get enough clues that for Lewis' generation, they would know that what he's referring to is either George Bernard Shaw, or at least disciples of George Bernard Shaw.
Speaker 0 00:32:17 But all that, that entails as sort of puritanical shiism, uh, a desire for a, not an inhuman, an inhumane superman, uh, an Uber mench mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, uh, because the ordinary man is, is, is absolutely someone that needs to be reformed out of existence. Mm. And so, and so Shaw was sympathetic to communism. He, he, uh, was sympathetic to tyrus us like Joseph Stalin, who are of course responsible for killing tens of millions of people. And Sure. Sort of a representative, that sort of ideology, which is heartless. It's a, it's, it's, it's an inhumane rational. So this is, this is how used describe his raised. So, no, it's no wonder that he's, he's a mess. No wonder that he's very prideful and spoiled. It's no wonder that he, um, turns his super, his nose at any nose up at any notion of art, anything which is fictional.
Speaker 0 00:33:07 You know, he, he's, he's so much of a realist that he's lost all touch of reality. Mm-hmm. So that he becomes a dragon, because he's already a dragon. So that, you know, he becomes a, what happens, he outwardly manifests in, in his appearance what he already was in his soul. Mm-hmm. Um, so the parallels here, of course, with Tolkin, the dragon sickness in the Hobbit, you know, it's not just dragons that suffer from the dragon sickness, you know, bbo and, and tho oaken shield and others suffer from the dragon sickness. Well, UTI has the dragon sickness, and it manifests itself ultimately, the fact he is a dragon internally. He becomes a dragon. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:33:43 And could, could you say a little bit more about, uh, the kind of idea of a dragon within maybe, you know, both medieval or Lewis and Toks mythologies? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:33:55 The key thing about a dragon, a dragon's not a monster in the sense that, uh, dinosaur is a monster. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's not scary because it's big and, and breathes fire. It's scary because it's wicked and malicious and, and can destroy you. Mm-hmm. Not really physically, but, but, but, but spiritually mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's, it's, it's a type of, uh, of, uh, of Satan. So it's, it's, it's the, it's a manifestation of demonic evil. So a dragon is something demonic. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and of course, it tempts us that dragons are prideful. They're AITs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they are possessed by their possessions, uh, that, that sm in, in the hobbit is actually trapped by his possessions. He didn't leave the hde, the, you know, the dragon hde, none of which are, is any of any used to him whatsoever. Right. Because he's possessed by, it's being possessed by his possession. So when, when, uh, used to manifest that sort of dragon sickness in his attitude to others, in his desire for wealth, his greed, um, he, so when he, when he wakes up, uh, and discovers that he's become a dragon, it's me merely an outward manifestation, an incarnation of what he is already.
Speaker 2 00:35:03 Yeah. I love this. Uh, this is a story that, uh, a quote that you, um, quote in your book. Uh, but it's interesting only when he, when his, uh, his state is manifested and his inward dragon ness, this desire to control and devour and, uh, hoard, uh, that becomes manifest. Then he, he says he wanted to be friends. He wanted to get back among humans, talk and laugh and share things, which were all the things that he couldn't do before. Right. Even though he was on the ship, he was utterly alone. He wrote a diary in which he would, you know, look at everyone and criticize everyone. He realized that he was a monster cut off from the whole human race. An appalling loneliness came over him. He began to see that the others had not really been fis at all. He began to wonder if he himself had been such a nice person, and he has always supposed, he longed for their voices. He would be grateful for a kind word, even from Repa chi. Right. This, that when he becomes a monster cutoff and he sees that, then he begins to desire companionship. He desires friendship. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:36:16 And basically, you know, he's ex-communicated himself from human love. Mm. And when he realizes that he mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he cannot have that human love anymore, because there's this barrier that's been put up now, a physical one, not really a metaphysical one, that he didn't realize what he is lost. You know, sometimes we have to have things taken away from us. Um, so, you know, a favorite, uh, saying a mine is, is, is, is, um, uh, is of Oscar Wild, you know, God's eternal laws are kind and break the heart of stone by how else, but through a broken heart. May Lord Christ enter in, you know, that basically EUSs has to have his heart broken because it's, it's made of stone so that he can actually experience love. He couldn't experience love because he has this heart of stone that was, was not allowing him to love others or others to love him. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that heart had to be broken. And enus, tosis case, it was by the end dragging of him. Right. Yeah. Make him manifest mm-hmm. <affirmative> externally, what he actually was internally.
Speaker 2 00:37:08 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Now, uh, again, Lewis being kind of such a master of his craft, uh, he's tells the story, then he used us, recognizes this. He longs to not be a dragon anymore. He longs to have friends. He begins to actually become helpful. Right. As a dragon on the island, he, uh, cuts down some big, or, you know, get, brings food. He cuts down big trees for them so they can fix the mask. Um, right. As they said, I think they, they, they begin to actually enjoy his personality for the first time. Right. So he begins to kind of have this moral change. Uh, but at the same time, the discovery of the moral law is not enough. Could you say more about Right. What ends up, what, what, what happens to Eustis and how, uh, how important this is for, uh, the story and for Lewis's theology? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:38:02 Well be, before we talk about the ing Okay. O of use, I'd like to talk about, you know, how others respond to him. So what the nobility, so Lucy, of course, the either Lucy or Edmond, it's unclear in the, in the narrative, which Yes. One or other of them was the first one to say, hang on, this is not just a dragon is, and perhaps it's Lucy useless, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then reap cheap who had, who had been, uh, you know, use this's sworn enemy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> shows true nobility and, and, and, and large Yes. And magnanimity and love charity. And, and, and he's the one that spends hours talking and trying to comfort eti mm-hmm. <affirmative>, even though he, he's the one that's been wronged by UTIs. Right. Okay. Loving his enemy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So we see this nobility in reaper achieve, but then, you know, the, that Eustis has to first of all see himself as he is.
Speaker 0 00:38:47 And in order to be und dragon, you know, as Azlan informs him, he's going to have to embrace pain suffering. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we, I can remove your, your dragon skin and make you use this, uh, the, the the boy again, but it's going to hurt, and, and I can't do it against your will. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, now you have to want me to do it. In other words, there's a purgatorial dimension Yeah. To, to, to, to the conversion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you can't, the, the heart, the heart has to be broken. The heart is there, there, there has to be suffering there. And there has to be not just suffering, and this is key. There has to be a willing acceptance Yeah. Of suffering. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is very different. And so Aslan can't do anything until used to willingly accepts the suffering that's necessary. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:39:33 There's that beautiful line where he says, right. Let me undress you. Right, right. His claws can take off the dragon skin, but not without UTIs permission. Yes. And UTIs is afraid. He tries to take off his own dragon skin three times, and each times it comes back. Uh, Lewis is loves moral effort, and at the same time always shows how our moral effort will eventually lead us to discover our own bankruptcy. And then we can surrender all too, in this case, to Aslan, uh, for his help. Uh, maybe just one other, uh, interesting theme is that Eustis also, uh, not only we do, we learn about his parents, but we also learn about his school. His school of education is, uh, right. The experiment house. Uh, it's, it's a school of, uh, maybe like empirical knowledge, but then utter kind of freedom. And what is really revealed as anarchy and what is really revealed is just people run around and bully and, uh, turns immediately into, uh, really a situation of, uh, great kind of horror at the ways that some of the children, uh, bully the other children, uh, and Right. And so you kind of have this, in a way, Lewis thinks that modern education, at least in some of its instantiations, if it has no higher good and doesn't seek to transform the soul in accord with that good, and is merely looking at facts and freedom, it actually ends up kind of enslaving. So, uh, how, how would you say in a way that Eustis receives a real education in Narnia?
Speaker 0 00:41:08 Yeah. So that, that, that, that's a great question. I mean, obviously, as you've said, the connection between Eustis is parents and George Beshore. George Barnshaw was a Fabian Socialist, and, and what Lewis is doing here is it's, it's a, a satire mm-hmm. <affirmative> on modern socialist innovations in education. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote Oscar world again here. Okay. Cause there's a line in one of Oscar world's poems, he says, anarchy, freedom's own Judas. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So basically, if you, if you abandon law, you don't end up with freedom, you end up with anarchy. Anarchy and unstable situation. So what ends up happening, it's the wall of the mob. So in actual fact, it's the, which is the wall of the strongest. Mm-hmm. So, you know, so the, the, the weak end up being bullied mm-hmm. <affirmative> now. So again, Edmund Burke says, Liberty itself must be limited in order to be possessed. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:41:57 <affirmative>. So the irony, that kind of tradition in some sense, safeguards the weak.
Speaker 0 00:42:04 Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:42:05 Right. Exactly. This idea. And so, in part here, this is almost maybe Lewis's, uh, your suggestion of the satire. Uh, there's a little bit in here of, uh, kind of at the outskirts of the book of, um, like Orwell's, uh, animal Farm, of kind of showing that the school in the experiment house and this form of education actually become really destructive and abusive. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:42:28 And we see it in an adult by, by, by, by Lewis in, in, in, uh, that hideous strength, like this is a satire mm-hmm. <affirmative> on, on, on modern socialism and modernism. Uh, uh, so we see the same thing in the thought <unk>. This is a typical element, but the point is this, as well as being just, um, uh, a free for all, we're not a free for mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which, where it's where the mor and the bullies want everything everybody else lives in, in, in fear. Yeah. They're learning nothing of value. Right. As you say, just purely empirical facts that in, in going into naia, he learns the Marvel law. He actually learns about metaphysics, not merely physics. Right. And so he learns these deeper lessons. Goodness, truth, beauty, the love and the, and the cost of love, love, love is not free. There's no such thing as free love. Yeah. Free love always comes at a price. So he learns all those absolutely priceless lessons. Yeah. Um, in, in this real education, which he gets by entering naa, and which we get by entering naa by opening the pages of
Speaker 2 00:43:26 The book. Yeah. And it's, uh, it's great that his first act after the conversion is there's a, a sea dragon that's a, a, a sea serpent that's attacking the ship. And he takes, uh, a sword and hacks it at the dragon. Of course, he ruins the sword, uh, which is the second best sword on the ship, but it was the first thing of courage he'd ever done. Uh, and Lewis really thought that, uh, right. For us to, even if we have the right values, we won't have the strength to act on them. Right. Unless we develop courage. So education ought to be helping people become more courageous, and perhaps at times, at least learning to admit when our courage has failed. Uh, so shifting gears a little bit, I wanted to look at another kind of great scene, or I think Lewis felt that we were in the modern world, often cut off from creation, both because, uh, our faith in the truth of the gospel and our faith in the truth of Right.
Speaker 2 00:44:26 The biblical revelation of creation had weakened. But then also because we tended to look at the world as something simply, uh, there for our manipulation, uh, that the world is just a lot of raw material that we can manipulate. Uh, and so, right. And, and he thinks if we kind of have this relationship to the world, uh, and we can't see the world as somehow good and created, uh, and given to us, uh, that we will, as he puts it in abolition of man, right. Not only will we see the world as raw material, but we will eventually see ourselves as raw material and as he puts it, right, not only, but not raw material, uh, as we fondly wish to be manipulated by ourselves, but to be manipulated by others. Uh, so for him, recovering creation is, is significant in countless ways, wonder and all these things. But, so could you tell us a little bit about maybe just this great image of, in the Magician's nephew of how does Louis kind of represent creation in that story?
Speaker 0 00:45:29 Yeah. There's a parallel here with, uh, the teaching of instance Bethes, uh, in his day music, uh, about the, the, the music at the heart of the cosmos mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and music's not just music, music instrument, instrumentalist, the music's played. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> heard. It's is the music of the spheres themselves, the, of the beauty of the cosmos. Right. The order of creation. So we have this idea of music at the heart, if you like, of, of Christian philosophy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, we see alluded to beautifully, uh, in, in, um, in the Merchant of Venice where Shakespeare's play, um, when Lorenzo gives a talk, he's actually going through the three types of music that, uh, BEUs gives us, or talking, and Lewis know this mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So the creation of Middle Earth, you know, is the great music. God is the composer of the cosmos. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:46:17 <affirmative>. Right. And he presents this great music to the arch angelic beings, and then says, don't just harken, but play. Right? Mm-hmm. So, with, uh, with, uh, the creation of naa, it's the same thing. It's, it's sung mm-hmm. <affirmative> into being by Aslan's aslan's song that brings, uh, everything to life. Um, and then he says, three times, awake, awake, awake, you know, in the, in the Everlasting Man has says there's three moments, uh, in reality when called it history, cuz it's, um, there's, when nothing becomes something mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. The creation of the cosmos, then when something becomes alive. Right. When life enters the cosmos. Yes. Not just, not just matter. And then when something becomes alive that has reason and will, that can contemplate the other things that are mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the cosmos. So, man, so awake, awake, awake, this, this, this, this repetition three times of something that's no longer asleep, but real, fully real. Uh, and, and then it's, uh, love, think, speak are, are the words immediately after that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and this is absolutely beautiful because this to me is, is is both the manifestation of the o of the philosophical transcendentals, the good, the true and the beautiful. Love the
Speaker 2 00:47:43 Good, right?
Speaker 0 00:47:43 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> think reason, right? Yeah. The truth. Yes. The true, uh, and, and, and then, and then speak that we're putting love and reason into some sort of form is, is is beautiful. Right. Um, so, uh, so these, these things are manifestation of that triune transcendental reality of, of, of the philosophers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but also for me, it's a manifestation of the words of Christ. When Christ says, I am the way, the truth and the life. You know, he's saying, I am the good, the true, and the beautiful. Because in some sense, beauty, you know, is, is, you know, it's not in the eye of the behold. It's in the thing beheld. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And if we don't behold what's beautiful saying the sunset, it's not because the sunset's not beautiful, it's because we are blind. So there's, we have to have a life, uh, to be able to actually experience beauty.
Speaker 0 00:48:32 So that the beauty is somehow the life in us, we have to be alive to it in order to be able to experience it. And we're seeing the life in the thing, the beauty of the thing by being alive to it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there's this, you know, the, the life is at the heart of, of beauty. So, so think so love, think, speak profound metaphysical mm-hmm. <affirmative> contemplation, meditation, but, uh, within a children's story mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is, this is the brilliance of CS Lewis because a child can read it and he's not gonna get that deeper mm-hmm. <affirmative> understanding of it, and that's the way it should be. But then that's why you, that's why we should, I think, go back and return to the Chronicles and naa, because there's all these gems when we're old enough mm-hmm. <affirmative> to understand. They, they, they had got moments of epiphany
Speaker 2 00:49:14 And that image of God singing his creation, I think that, you know, Lewis would see it as, uh, you know, we have this kind of modern deism, uh, where maybe there is a God who created the world, but now the world is on its own God who's a clock maker, he winds up the clock. And one of the interesting things about song, or like a symphony is the moment the the orchestra stops playing, there's silence. Right. So if God is singing creation into being, then we are constantly being sung into being right now. Yeah. Yep. And so I think this image allows us to overcome that deistic view, but to think about God is creating us, God is holding us and being, it's him, as Paul would say in him, we move and live and have our being. And I just think it's wonderful how he can do that with recovering this classical traditional notion, say from Bethes and others. Uh, and it's also interesting, could you just, uh, maybe, uh, and, and this will, you know, beginning to kind of, uh, move towards our close, but could you just say a word too about how, if that's what's happening in creation, awake, awake, awake, love, think, speak as Aslan says, as he's singing creation into being, uh, I love the characters though of the CBI and Uncle Andrew, um, who kind of seeing two people witnessing this glorious moment of creation. How do they both respond?
Speaker 0 00:50:40 Yeah. Well, one is, is blinded by his P pride. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and the oth the other is enlightened by his humility. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, but the, the uncle Andrews clever, right? Uh, he's educated, but cleverness is not the same thing as wisdom. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the CBI is not educated, and he's not clever, but he has the wisdom to see something beautiful and magnificent and divine when he sees it, because he's on his knees. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, and because Andrew refuses to kneel, he's blind to the reality. And, and no amount, no amount of cleverness mm-hmm. <affirmative> is, is ever going to enlighten him until he's willing to, to have the wisdom to get on his knees.
Speaker 2 00:51:20 Yeah. That's, uh, well put. And, uh, I i, I given the fact you did title the whole book, I know you said with editorial support further up and further in, um, but I've heard you often talk about the final scene of the last battle. So could you just say a word maybe as a little, uh, tantalize, you know, tantalize our, uh, listeners, uh, to eventually read to the end of the Chronicles of Narnia?
Speaker 0 00:51:42 Well, if, if you'll forgive me and permit me, I can, I I can do nothing except, uh, butcher the brilliance and beauty of, of, of Lewis's words. So may I just read the last paragraph? Absolutely. Of the, of the, uh, of the last battle. It's the way I end the book actually. Um, so, and this is Azlan, uh, and as he spoke, he no longer looked to them like a lion. But the things that began to happen after that were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them. And for us, this is the end of all the stories. And we can most truly say that they all lived happily ever after. But for them, it was only the beginning of the real story. All their life in this world and all their adventures in NAA had only been the cover and the title page. Now, at last, they were beginning chapter one of the great story, which no one on Earth has read, which goes on forever, in which every chapter is better than the one before.
Speaker 2 00:52:48 Well, that's a great place to finish with, um, Lewis's, uh, own words as he completes the Chronicles of Narnia. Uh, so, you know, for people who'd love to learn more, you have a website, uh, I think it's j pierce.co o, uh, joseph pierce.co, but j p e a r c e, uh, where, uh, listeners can find more information about you and about your works and, um, learn a lot more about Toan and Lewis and Chesterton and, and many others. Also, uh, the book further up and further in understanding Narnia, uh, is available at, uh, tan uh, publications or publishers. And, uh, for listeners of the podcast, there's a special, there's a special link, uh, Ave Maria, a v e m a r i a 15. Uh, and if you use that, uh, you can get 15% off. Uh, and since this is something we're trying, by the way, if you have any questions, you can send me an email and I'll do my best to help out. And, uh, my email is michael dot dph ave maria.edu. Uh, so thanks Joseph so much for being on the show. My
Speaker 3 00:53:59 Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
