Frodo’s Journey | Discovering the Hidden Meaning of the Lord of the Rings

[00:00:00] Speaker A: So what we see in the Lord of the Rings is the fact that Frodo cannot destroy the power of sin, of his own volition, of his own will. He needs supernatural assistance. In this case, the providential entrance at the crucial moment of Gollum. Is Tolkien doing the same thing as the Beowulf poet, showing us that without supernatural assistance, we are powerless against the forces of darkness? [00:00:28] Speaker B: Welcome to the catholic theology show presented by Ave Maria University. This podcast is sponsored in part by Annunciation Circle, a community that supports the mission of Ave Maria University through their monthly donations of $10 or more. If you'd like to support this podcast and the mission of Ave Maria University, I encourage you to visit avemaria.edu join for more information. I'm your host, Michael Dolphine, and today we are joined by Joseph Pierce. Welcome to the show. [00:01:00] Speaker A: It's good to be back. [00:01:01] Speaker B: Michael, glad to have you here. And Joseph's been a regular guest for many times, and we've been able to talk about Chesterton, Tolkien, Lewis, and just many wonderful things about the rich catholic literary and theological tradition that we have. We've done a previous episode on Lord of the Rings, but I want to return to it because I think that Lord of the Rings is one of those books that you can kind of just continue to go almost live more deeply into. Tolkien on fairy stories, described that a great story is one in which you wish it were true, you wish you could live in it. And I think he saw in that, of course. That's the gospel, that the gospel is that great story, God's story, in which we can live. But I think many people find something like that in the Lord of the Rings. Right? It's a story in which they would want to live, a story in which life has meaning and purpose. There's a kind of nobility, there's a purpose, there's a struggle, there's joy, right? All these different things that show up in the Lord of the Rings. We wanted to talk today about your book that you wrote, actually, in 2015. It was St. Benedict's press, or also tan, and it's called Frodo's journey, discovering the hidden meaning of the Lord of the Rings. And I wanted to be provocative with a first question. Now, you say this is Frodo's journey, discovering the hidden meaning of the Lord of the Rings. Is it really hidden? [00:02:40] Speaker A: Well, I think that Tolkien was very much intent on not having the, shall we say, the allegorical dimension of it, those aspects of texts that speak beyond the text to other things, most particularly to our own lives and world. He didn't want it to be on the surface. He didn't want it to be obvious. So in the sense that, yes, it's subtle, it's under the surface, it's concealed, not in such a way that it's gnostic. And we're supposed to be sort of looking for it, but it's not obvious. And so for most people, unless they get some assistance in what are we looking for? How do we find it? They're probably going to flounder, or they're just going to be reading the work on a purely surface level and missing so much wealth and richness. And that would be tragic because this is a great work of literature that works on the level of theology, philosophy, history, morality. And if we're not getting that, we're only really scratching the surface. [00:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I like that aspect when we talk about the hidden meaning. Right. It's not like you need a decoder ring that is a secret meaning. It's really the meaning of the work itself. The work itself as fully understood. [00:03:53] Speaker A: Yes. I mean, basically, my approach, generally speaking, is to lean on the authority of the author. So you find out, first of all, what does Tolkien say he's doing with the work? What's the purpose of the work? And he shows you if he's your guide. I mean, I'm just really guiding people to him. And then he guides us into the text of the Lord of the Rings and shows us how to read it properly. And that's the whole point, to rely on and respect the authorial authority. [00:04:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So what does Tolkien say about the religious character of Lord of the Rings? [00:04:25] Speaker A: Yeah. So I can quote him word for word on this. He says, the Lord of the Rings is, of course, a fundamentally religious and catholic work. Unconsciously, at first, consciously in the, you know, immediately we're thinking, well, there's nothing obviously catholic in it. There's no mention of Christianity, obviously. The story, obviously, is set thousands of years before the coming of Christ. So how on earth can it be fundamentally religious and catholic? So that's the mystery that we need to solve, if you like, if we want to reveal the hidden catholic and religious meaning of the Lord of the Rings, which Tolkien tells us explicitly, is there to be found. [00:05:02] Speaker B: Yeah. We have had another podcast episode where we went through the Silmarillion and looked a little bit at the background creation of the whole history, both its creation from God and some fall. What is it about that kind of the background stories of the Lord of the Rings, which are always hinted at in Lord of the Rings itself. Right. These other books that he wrote makes reference to earlier times or to the beginning. So there are these other elements. What would you say that Lord of the Rings kind of presupposes, in a way, this broader picture of creation and fall? [00:05:45] Speaker A: Well, I think, first of all, one of the reasons Lord of the Rings is such a rich tale and something which we can sort of really dive and delve into on a deep level is because Tolkien already had in his mind when he started writing it, this deeper history which hadn't been published because he'd been working on the creation of middle earth and the elvish languages and the history of elves and men in his own notes that would come to fruition in the Silmarillion, but that wouldn't be published until after the Lord of the Rings. So the point is, when people first read the Lord of the Rings before the Silmarillion was published, they couldn't have the depth of knowledge which we have. But Tolkien had the depth of knowledge which he has. So there's this sense of depth of history, of living languages. That's a consequence of Tolkien already delving and diving for years with the background before he tells this story, if you like, on the surface of that background in the present of the history which he's already constructed. [00:06:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And one thing that I reread the Lord of the Rings recently, and the role of really, we can't call it anything other than divine Providence is just kind of palpable at so many different times. It really struck me also, too, just the characters don't know what to do. The world's so complex. Even when the fellowship is on the journey, they've lost Frodo under even there. They don't know whether or not to go over the mountains and through the snow and ICE or under the of. You know, they chose the one and it doesn't work, and then they have to go under. Gandalf sacrifices himself in that whole story, but then they're going down the river and they can't decide. And it just keeps emphasizing they can't decide what to do. Do they go west to Gondor or do they somehow go east? And they just keep putting off the decision. Putting off the decision. And in a way, the decision ends up kind of being made for them at other times. The providential character of these chance meetings of the ants hearing about all the bad things that are going on and getting roused to go into or rousing the trees to go to battle because of the accidental way in which Mary and Pippin are captured by orcs and then get dropped off. I don't know, all these different elements. What would you say about this kind of theme of providence within the word? [00:08:21] Speaker A: You use the word accidental. And of course, when we use the word accidental we have to put it in inverted commas in the hobit. It's a good clue to the Lord of Rings here because the word luck or lucky or luckily appears over and over and over again. It seems to be good fortune. But right at the end of the story, Gandalf says to Bilbo, you don't think all this happened by pure luck, do you? In other words, there was a divine providence at work. And what you see is, it is a myst. It's like our own lives that if we're responsive in a virtuous way and act in accordance with what we should do as opposed to what we shouldn't do there are positive consequences. And normally we can only see the hand of Providence in our own lives. By looking back, we can't see the future. But we can see that certain things that happened to us which we could not have foreseen which were absolutely crucial. And the same thing in the Lord of Rings. We look back and the most obvious way, actually, Michael, is that moment on Mount Doom when Gollum appears from nowhere and bites off Frodo's finger and falls into the cracks of doom. Frodo fails. He doesn't have the will. He's not strong enough to defeat the power of evil that the Ring is so out of nowhere. This providential moment happens with Gollum but that's connected to the fact that on three separate occasions prior to that. So right at the beginning of the story Frodo says, I wish Uncle Bilbo had killed that miserable creature when he had a chance. It's a pity that he didn't. And gandalf responds, pity. It was pity that stayed his hand. And then later, Frodo has a chance of killing Gollum at the forbidden Paul. And he says, now I do see him. I do pity him. And he stops Gollum from being killed. And then later on, Sam also has the opportunity to kill Gollum and pities him. And the hardest commandment that Christ gives us is to love our enemy. And on three separate occasions, three separate hobbits loved their enemy, did not kill Gollum. If they had not done that, he would not have been there. So you can see the positive consequences and outcome of acting virtuously and how God rewards that providentially yeah. [00:10:33] Speaker B: I think one thing that a lot of people struggle with about Providence is thinking that Providence is kind of simplistic, which means that if you do good things, good things will happen to you. So why do bad things happen to good people? These sorts of elements. But of course, a christian understanding of providence is much more complex. And even within the Lord of the Rings. I like that in one of your chapters, you talk about kind of the powers that are at work, right? That on the one hand, the ring has a power that wants to return to its maker. So there are powers within the universe that are malicious, deceptive. It's not accidental that human beings often individually and very often collectively fall into the worst versions of themselves. But at the same time, there's also. The ring was meant for Bilbo to find. So we also begin to see, wait a second, there are powers at work that are greater than us, that are malicious, and then there are other also powers, which means that there's going to be this od character to divine Providence. Divine providence is not going to be simply something that we can really understand. Even though ultimately it's good, it's somehow still working through and within evil and suffering. [00:12:07] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So as you said, that Gandalf tells Frodo that you were meant to find the ring and not by its maker, and that might be an encouraging thought. So there's supernatural powers, including demonic powers. And obviously, Sauron, we know, is a demon, but we have supernatural demonic power, and the Ring is a servant of that demonic power. But beyond that demonic power, there is something else that means Frodo defined the ring because he's now been ordained, shall we say, to be the Ring bearer. And that's not by Sauron. It's by someone who's beyond Sauron. In other words, by God. So we do see the hidden hand of Providence at work in the Lord of the Rings. And that's just one example. And obviously, we could go through the whole work and see the instances of this. [00:12:59] Speaker B: Now, in the book, you suggest that the Ring, the one ring to bind them all and in the darkness, bind them. Right. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Or rule one ring to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them. Yeah. [00:13:10] Speaker B: Thank you. You mentioned that this ring is original sin. That might strike a lot of people who like Tolkien, who maybe are not catholic, as quite an exaggeration. [00:13:26] Speaker A: It would be if I made a claim like that out of the blue, without backing up the textual evidence, it would be a stretch. But Tolkien has the Ring destroyed on March the 25th. He has Frodo and the fellowship leaving Rivendell on December the 25th, March 25 is, of course, the feast of Annunciation, but also traditionally the date of the crucifixion. December the 25th is, of course, the nativity of Christ. So these are liturgically crucial and significant dates. Now, Tolkien's clearly choosing these dates for a reason, and then we can tie, if you like, the christian liturgical year with what's happening in the story, and we can see that the Annunciation, the crucifixion, taken together with the resurrection, constitute our redemption. What's destroyed by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? Well, it's the power of sin. And what's destroyed on March the 25th? Mount doom, I always say. Mount doom. Golgotha. Right, that. Golgotha is Mount Doom in our world. Right, that the power of sin is destroyed there. So there is absolutely a connection between the one sin to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them, original sin, and the one ring to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them. The ring in the story and then. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Where you were speaking about before, how Frodo can actually throw the ring in, we also see that part of our understanding of redemption is that no fallen creature can redeem himself. We can overcome sin. No matter how noble a human being is, a human being can never. Right. We need something greater. We need kind of God's providence. [00:15:07] Speaker A: Absolutely. And it is significant. I talk about this in the book as well, that Tolkien's a medievalist, and specifically, he has a connection with Beowulf. First of all, he wrote the seminal, some would say definitive academic essay on Beowulf, the monster, and the critics. But also he translated the whole poem, so he knows that poem, the back of his hand. There's two things about that poem which shed light on his approach to writing the Lord of the Rings. The first is, for those that don't know, Beowulf basically fights three monsters throughout the course of the story. Grendel, Grendel's mother and the dragon. The first two monsters, basically, Beowulf is shown to us as the mightiest warrior who ever lived. He's stronger than everybody, and he's so strong, he's going to spurn armor against Grendel, and he defeats Grendel by his pure physical strength. Then Grendel's mother comes along, and now he wears armor and is armed with a sword, which has never been defeated. So now we have the strongest man with the best technology which humanity can make to fight Grendel's mother. And he and it is powerless, and it needs a magic, basically miraculous sword to be presented to him at the crucial moment. Otherwise, he's about to be killed. And on that sword is salvation history. Etched in the hilt, this signifies grace, right? Supernatural assistance. And at the time that Beowulf poet, who was almost certainly a Benedictine monk, was writing, that was the same time as bead. St. Bead the venerable was writing his ecclesiastical history of England. And Bede is very preoccupied with know. Pelagianism, of course, is the heresy which says we can get to heaven through the triumph of our own will. We just do what Jesus says. We don't need grace. We don't need sacraments, don't need church. We just use our will to get to heaven. That's a heresy. And the Beowulf poet, along with bead, is obviously condemning that. And so what we see in the Lord of the Rings is with the fact that Frodo cannot destroy the power of sin of his own volition, of his own will. He needs supernatural assistance this time. In this case, the providential entrance at the crucial moment of Gollum. Is Tolkien doing the same thing as the Beowulf poet, showing us that without supernatural assistance, without grace, we are powerless against the forces of darkness. [00:17:29] Speaker B: And the connection to Beowulf is really fascinating as well, because in your book, you discuss how Beowulf itself is both a story that's a story unto itself. It works on its own. It's an imitation in some ways, of know and the great character of Aeneas and different things, but now totally reimagined, right, as an kind of Anglo Saxon warrior and chieftain, but also deeply, somehow pious and know leader and all these different elements, and one who's willing to sacrifice himself to protect others. In some ways, in itself, it's not strictly allegorical in a strict sense, but it's very kind of maybe what we might say in contemporary English, allegorical in a loose sense. Right. It's very symbolic of the christian story, as you point out. And it seems that's almost the same pattern that Tolkien does, where it's not a strict one to one allegory in any way. There's not obvious one to one representations. These are real characters. It's a real world that you can imagine. You can breathe the air, you can smell the dark forest of Morkwood. That's not just a symbol of something that is Merckwood. [00:18:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:58] Speaker B: But Tolkien does even more than that. Not only does he do something similar to what Beowulf does, right. Even in the final encounter with the dragon. This is partly how the story of the Hobit works. [00:19:11] Speaker A: Yes. Right. [00:19:12] Speaker B: So you spoke about the first two battles that Beowulf goes through. What's the third battle? And how does that relate to maybe both the Hobbit and then also the Lord of the Rings? [00:19:21] Speaker A: Yeah. So just maybe just step back very briefly, because you mentioned the word allegory. It's important that we get this right, because what the Lord of the Rings isn't and what the Hobit isn't is a formal allegory. And a formal allegory employs personified abstractions. Right. So you have characters or things in a story that just represent an idea, and there's nothing like that in Tolkien's work. So it's not a formal allegory like that, but on a looser sense. You mentioned a looser sense. Now allegory just means that which speaks of something else. All right, so clearly, when Tolkien makes the ring destroyed on March 25, he's speaking of something beyond the story, the significance of March 25 in our world. So in that sense, it is allegorical. So of course, the Hobbit is very influenced by the third part of the taking of a part of the dragon horde, raises the wrath of the dragon. The dragon is then being destructive and has to be destroyed. So all that inspires clearly the story of Bilbo Baggins and Smaug and the lonely mouth and all that. But the other key thing about the third part of the Beowulf is numerical signification. So that connects Beowulf struggle with the dragon with the passion of Christ. Now, how is that? Well, we have to learn to read literarily, and to read literarily, as opposed to literally, is to have our, shall we say, allegorical antennae twitching. We should be know how to detect things that are showing us something which is beyond the literal text of the story. So as soon as we see that Beowulf selects twelve handpicked followers, antennae should be twitching. Hang on for a second. Twelve handpicked followers. What's going on here? Why twelve handpicked? And then one of them is the one that steals the goblet that raises the dragon's wrath, forcing, making it necessary for bear wolf to face the dragon immortal conflict. And then when Beowulf goes to meet the dragon, of the remaining eleven handpicked followers, ten run away into the woods, leaving only one that actually have the courage to stand behind him. Stand beside him. And then at the end of the story, they build a burial mound on a headland to serve as a sort of lighthouse type thing so ships don't get wrecked. And there are twelve again, twelve knights in shining armor galloping in a circle, which signifies eternity. This is something permanent that's been set up now with the twelve restored. So it's impossible to look at that combination of numbers and not see that the Beowulf poet who said is almost certainly a monk, is connecting Beowulfs laying down of his life for his kingdom in the story with Christ laying down his life for his kingdom in the gospel. [00:22:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So how does that then kind of move forward into the Hobbit? And one of the things I appreciate the way you kind of note here is there's a little bit of, like, the Hobit raises all these themes, but they're somehow light. They're somehow kind of funny. Often luck. The ring, as you mentioned, in the Hobbit, you kind of think like, oh, I'd like a ring like that, or something. But then as soon as you get into the Lord of the Rings, all of a sudden things get darker, things get heavier. There's a deeper realism. So how does kind of taking some of those themes, right. The same kind of, you get a burglar in the Hobbit, you get 14, I guess, a little bit similar, but a little bit different companions. A thief, and then eventually almost having to sacrifice, but then not. Right. There's a kind of deliverance at the very. So how does Tolkien kind of do much more than kind of just imitate Beowulf in the Hobbit but also somewhat imitate that last part of Beowulf in the Lord of the Rings? [00:23:34] Speaker A: Yeah, great question. Well, first of all, of course, the Hobbit is a children's book. It's self consciously a children's book. That's what he's doing. He's writing a children's book. So that accounts for the breezy, light tone of still, you know, basically at the beginning of the story, Bilbo Baggins is a creature of comfort, addicted to the creature comforts. His Hobbit hole. We told right at the beginning. What does a hobit hole mean? A hobit hole means comfort. All right? And so that's his comfort zone. And he needs to leave his comfort zone, which is why Gandalf says, this will be good for you. You can't just stay in your comfort zone time. You've got to take the adventure. You've got to learn to lay down your life for others to live self sacrificially. So when he comes back home at the end of the know his funeral is happening. So this is, again, more symbolism that he's dead in some sense. I mean, they think he's dead, but in a real sense, he has died, and it's a resurrected Bilbo as we go. This is a Bilbo who's much more alive at the end of the story than he was at the beginning because he's laid down his life for others and has been born again in the resurrected spirit, if you like. Lord of the Rings. The categorical technique in the Lord of the Rings is, again, Tolkien the medievalist. And we should maybe compare it with another work that Tolkien translated, Sugarwain and the Green Knight, because what Tolkien does in Beowulf, he doesn't use numerical signification so much as the Beowulf poet does with the dragon, but he does use dates. And in this, you actually find that there are precedents in medieval literature. So Tolkien translated Sugarain and the Green Knight, and Sugarne announces he's going to set off on the quest to find the Green Knight on all Saints Day. But he actually sets off on all Souls Day, which is obviously a penitential day. He goes to confession, and then the journey lasts from all Souls day through to Christmas Eve. And he's lost in the wilds of north Wales looking in vain for the Green Knights castle. And it's on Christmas, so that's during Lent. And then on Christmas Eve, he prays because he wants to get to mass on Christmas. And then that prayer is answered on Christmas Eve with the appearance of the castle, and he's welcomed by the porter in the name of St. Peter. And that's how he finds the green eye. So we have this numerical set, all saints, all souls Lent, Christmas Eve, and most famously, of course, Dante's divine comedy that begins on Maundy Thursday, on Holy Thursday, with Dante lost in the dark wood of sin. He then descends into the inferno on Good Friday and then ascends into the light of the sun at the foot of Mount Purgatory on Easter Sunday morning and ascends Mount Purgatory during the Easter octave. So Tolkien, in making March the 25th and December the 25th, such significant dates in Lord of the Rings, is really copying this allegorical technique of its medieval masters and mentors. [00:26:26] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a powerful insight. And again, it's one of the things once you see, you can't unsee it. [00:26:31] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:31] Speaker B: And I think that's how Tolkien was able to say, right. That it was. Of course, it was a religious and catholic tale, unconsciously so at first, but consciously in its revisions. So we're going to take a break, and then we'll come back. And afterwards I want to kind of dive into a few specific things. Not exactly Easter eggs, speaking of important dates, but particular things like the lembus, the way bread, the palantir. [00:27:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:27:01] Speaker B: That this thing that allows us to see where we're not. And a little bit of the character, especially of Faramir and Boromir. I'd like to kind of dive into those. So we'll be back in a minute. [00:27:20] Speaker C: You're listening to the catholic theology show presented by Ave Maria University and sponsored in part by Annunciation Circle. Through their generous donations of $10 or more per month, Annunciation circle members directly support the mission of AMU to be a fountainhead of renewal for the church through our faculty, staff, students, and alumni. To learn more, visit avemaria.edu slash join. Thank you for your continued support. And now let's get back to the show. [00:27:50] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Catholic Theology show. I'm your host, Michael Doffine, and today we are joined by Joseph Pierce, author and visiting professor of literature at Ave Mary University. You're teaching an intensive course with us this year. So glad to have you here. It's always good to be back on campus, Michael. Yes. And just so anyone who's interested in learning more about Joseph Pierce or his work, your website is at Jpearce Co. [00:28:17] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well remembered. [00:28:19] Speaker B: Excellent. So people can look at that. And we're talking about the Lord of the Rings today, and we're kind of using Joseph Pierce's book called Frodo's Journey, discovering the hidden meaning of the Lord of the Rings, published by St. Benedict Press, which is also affiliated with Tan Publishers. So I want to kind of look at, say, maybe a few of these more specific images that are both, again, real in the story, and they have their own intelligibility, but at the same time, that intelligibility draws from the primary world. So, as Tolkien will write about at different points. Right. All authorial creation, artistic creation, is a subcreation within God's creation. But the primary creation is not merely the natural world or the human world. It's also the world of God's grace and redemption, which means tales and art ought to somehow imitate the whole divine drama of creation and redemption, which means creation fall, providence and redemption in different ways and all these elements. So let's look at a few of these. And so I wanted you mentioned some of the oddities of the know the way bread that the elves give the travelers on the journey. And one thing that you mention here is there was some letter that Tolkien wrote where somebody tried to pretend that this would somehow be like concentrated food, almost maybe like an MRe or something that the soldiers would eat. But he said, basically it's a complete misunderstanding. It's trying to reduce it to a. [00:30:18] Speaker A: Technological food making something magic, like the wing. Right? Something which gives us power. Yeah. So the key thing is we discussed in the first half about that Tolkien being a medievalist and therefore using medieval techniques as regards the employment of dates in his text, as medieval texts do. But he's also, as well as being a medievalist, of course, Tolkien is a linguist, he's a philologist. So he's an expert in languages, and he even invents two languages, elvish languages, to deepen the story. So Lembass, he tells us what lembass means. Lembass means life bread or bread of life. Now, once you know that, it's pretty obvious what it's about, right? And the elves call it both life bread and also way bread. And another word for the Eucharist, particularly when ministered in extremists, is viacom, for the way via. So both way bread and life bread are obviously depictions of the Eucharist. And Tolkien says in the story that it doesn't so much feed the body as feed the will. So far from being a food concentrate that feeds the body, actually feeds the will. And that's, of course, what the blessed sacrament does. It allows us to keep our will honed in on the presence of God himself, which we actually take into our body in the blessed sacrament. So there's no doubt at all that lembass is meant to signify the blessed sacrament. And I don't have the quote to hand, but Tolkien has this wonderful quote about the blessed sacrament. I give you the one great thing to love on earth, the blessed sacrament. Actually, I might quote it at the end there. If I do, perhaps you or I could read. It might be in my book Tolkien, man and myth. It might not be, but to one great thing to love on earth. There you will find romance, glory, honor, fidelity, and the true ways of all your loves on earth, and more than that, death by the divine paradox, that which ends life and demands the surrender of all, but through which all that you desire in your earthly loves, fidelity, honor, is fulfilled, et cetera. So Tolkien's a great. Obviously, he's in love with our Lord, and particularly his love with our Lord sacramentally in the Eucharist. And that shines forth in the. He's one of the Christ figures. I mean, you've talked about Christ figures in the Lord of the Rings, Aragorn, Gandalf, Frodo as the ring bearer, but also lembass, right? Lembass in some sense is a Christ figure because it signifies the Eucharist. Yeah. [00:33:02] Speaker B: And you quote in here how that especially as the journey continues into Mordor with Sam and Frodo and they run out of food and all they're reading it is that somehow he talks about that sense, right. It didn't sustain the body so much as it sustained the will. And we begin to realize that, wait a second. Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word of God or by every word that comes from the mouth of God. And what actually sustains us amidst evil? What sustains us amidst suffering? What sustains us amidst oppression? Well, it's not mere power, mere technological survival. It's hope. It has to be some kind of meaning and purpose. But that meaning and purpose is not something that we generate ourselves, right? It's a gift. And there is even that element where it says that it becomes even more effective when it was the only thing eaten. Right. That when we actually are stripped of sometimes earthly consolations and earthly powers, it's when we really recognize just how powerful grace and the Eucharist are. So next theme I wanted to talk about a little bit are the palantiri, or the palantirs, as we might call them. These stones that are somehow vision stones were originally created so the various cities within the west of the good kings could communicate with one another and yet now becomes corrupted, especially corrupts denethor. So say a little bit about what those are, what happens in the story and maybe what lessons Tolkien wants us to recognize as well in our world. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Well, as we'll see, I'll get to it in a moment. Again, knowing that Tolkien is a linguist unlocks the deeper meaning of the palantir, even in a whimsical but nonetheless profound way. But the key thing about what are the palantir? They're seeing stones, but they're seeing stones with a catch, because when you look into the palantir stones, the palantiri, you see what the dominant will that controls them wants you to see. So what you're seeing is propaganda. So then a thor, of course, spends too much time looking at the palantir and just sees the might of Mordor, that Sauron's basically cannot be defeated, that it's a waste of time trying to struggle against the forces of darkness because the forces of darkness are bound to win. And so spending too much time watching Sauron's propaganda, he ends up despairing and committing suicide. So what Tolkien tells us is a palantir in Elvish means far seeing, and the word fenzayan in german means far seeing also means television, and in English, also, far seeing means television. Tele is the Greek for far and vision vidao to see. So Tolkie's having a linguistic joke, but it's very important point. So during World War II, he lamented the fact that the radio was being used by all sides, basically to tell lies. And the one thing you weren't getting if you listened to the radio was the truth. And sort of television was the new technology that has just been launched at the time that he's writing Lord of the Rings. And he could already see and foresee and prophesy the power of TV to basically mold and distort the will of whole populations by just feeding them propaganda. So it's whimsical, but it also has a very serious, I sometimes say jokingly, that if you spend too much time watching television, and I would now add other devices, that you will commit suicide, like Denethor. Denethor is a warning to us, a cautionary tale that we need to detach ourselves from the enemy's propaganda machines. Yeah. [00:37:19] Speaker B: And it is a fascinating insight because we recognize, again, then, things like television or media are not neutral tools. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Right? [00:37:30] Speaker B: They are, in a way, tools for communication. But it's human beings that communicate, perhaps even its hired forces that communicate. Persons communicate. And therefore, we should not be surprised if evil persons, and of course, perhaps just all persons with somewhat broken and fragile intentions, reacting to fear, reacting in anger, reacting in hatred, will then use media for the sake of manipulation. It becomes a way of almost like an attempt to survive on the one hand, or an attempt to dominate on the other. And as somewhat Augustine describes with pride, that affects all of us as a libido dominandi, a lust for domination. But I was like, it's this need to somehow find control and safety within a world that does not offer it. And so this idea. Right. That these stones. And it's interesting. Yeah. The way that so denethor, for people that may not know the story really well is who becomes this. He's the steward of Gondor, the steward of the west, in a way, but who falls prey to the propaganda of these evil, powerful forces. And it's also interesting, Tolkien not only would see that kind of, say, as perhaps Stalin or Hitler, but he also writing, and I think letters to his son decries the BBCs, was at the office or the Ministry of Information, which he said was filled with lies. So he's also looking at England. And I think that was similar to what Orwell wrote about in big Brother. [00:39:20] Speaker A: Yes. In fact, the Ministry of Information in World War II was inspiration for the Ministry of Truth in 1984, which was being written basically. Well, Tolkien just finished Lord of the Rings when he was working on that. So, yeah, these two great minds, both George or and J. R. Tolkien, seeing the danger of technology to allow those with power to dominate the powerless, basically. [00:39:45] Speaker B: So let's look at another thing. You mentioned a little bit about the Virgin Mary, right? That it wouldn't be surprising for something that's religious and catholic unconsciously at first, but consciously in its revision, that Mary would show up. Right. And so maybe could you say a little bit about Galadriel? But I also loved the way you talked about Aowyn. And there is that great scene when the witch king of Agmar, the wraith, the head of the wraiths, no man can stand before me, and the shield maiden pulls out her sword and says, I am no man, and then cuts off his head, or I think stabs him in where his head would have been or something. But I think it's much deeper in a way, than kind of feminism. Right? This is a holy feminism. This is a holy understanding that there is a way that woman, just as woman, plays a role in the fall, woman plays a role in the redemption. [00:40:55] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So we'll start with Aowyn, as you mentioned it. Yeah. Eowyn, of course, as a character in the story, she clearly is a shield maiden. She does have swordsmanship. She knows how to defend herself and to fight. She can hold her own in battle, but she's given the job of looking after the elderly and the children while the men go off to fight. And she doesn't like that. So if you could, you could call that feminism. But what we find, two things we come back to, the iconography of her facing the witch king in a moment, is that she comes to realize at the end that there's as much courage involved in embracing the responsibilities of caring for others. The beginning, it would be the elderly and children, and at the end, just reuniting in marriage. Right. That this requires courage also. This is also self sacrificial. This is not something which is second best. On the contrary, she needs to mature. She needs to grow in wisdom and strength in order to be able to embrace that lifestyle. But as regards, obviously, that battle, as you quite correctly say, that I am no man, that this is absolutely symbolic of the Blessed virgin. It took the new Eve to actually crush the foot of the serpent. And of course, that the evil, the ring wraiths, in some sense, in Tolkien, they are like serpents. They are like dragons or worm tongue. Dragon tongue. So that's absolutely the case. But as regards Galadriel, Tolkien said in one of his letters that he put all of his love for the Blessed Virgin Mary into his characterization of Galadriel. So this holy elven queen in the Lord of the Rings is very much a marian figure who gives wisdom and gifts to people, to the whole fellowship that enables them to fight more effectively against the power of darkness. [00:42:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So also, you have another chapter in here, and I think we've spoken about this before, so we don't need to go into it at length. But this interesting way in which you have Gollum, Boromir and Faramir. Right. Who in some sense is almost like the inferno of Dante, the Purgatorio and the paradiso. [00:43:15] Speaker A: I like that. I don't think I use that. That's a Michael doefiny. I like that. [00:43:20] Speaker B: Gollum can't let go of the Ring and is consumed by it. Baramir tries to take the Ring, but eventually repents. Faramir says, right. I would not take the ring if it were lying on the side of the road. It's interesting that Eowen, in some sense, the new Eve, who does battle ends up marrying Faramir, who is sort of like the new Adam. [00:43:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:42] Speaker B: Right. I mean, is at least one of the new Adam characters. So could you say a little bit more about know, I think you mentioned in the book, Baramir, in a way, is all of that's who we are. We're that one on the journey in the fellowship. That's the man on the fellowship, is the one who breaks the fellowship. And we have to just recognize that's our role in salvation history is to mess things up. [00:44:13] Speaker A: Again, running with your imagery of the divine Comey, if you like. Yes. Boromir is purgatorial man. That's what we are. Of course, we're not in paradise and we're not, thanks be to God in hell, but we are. The purgatory begins here, right? So we can see Boromir's purgatorial man, but he's the one that most obviously is the one who's our representative. Because very simply, again, learning to read allegorically with our Antanae twitching, right, the fellowship. There's four hobbits. There's a king and there's a wizard and then there's Gimli, who represents the dwarves. There's Legolas, who represents the elves. And there's Boromir, who represents the men. Right. He's our representative in the fellowship. And as you say, he's the one that breaks the fellowship. He's the traitor, in fact. Right. He will use the power of evil purportedly to destroy evil. He can't use evil means to a good end. He makes that mistake. But he dies as a penitent with Aragorn in Persona Christi following the form of the catholic sacrament of penance. So he wins a great victory. Now, following his purgatory, he's going to heaven. But then we have. Gollum is the one that reminds us that if we regularly become ring wearers in other words, not carrying the burden of sin but being sinners putting on the ring is the act of sin. If that becomes habitual for us, basically, the ring takes over. We become corrupt. We become addicted to it. We're no longer able to escape its clutches. We lack the will to do so. And we end up, of our own volition, in our own hell. Very similar to what C. S. Lewis does in the great divorce. They're all golems down in hell in the great divorce. But then we have Faramir, as you say, who says that I would not pick up the ring side of the road. He also says I would not snare even an Orc with a falsehood. Not the smallest lie to the devil himself. So we have in Faramir who we should be. I like your paradisal image there. This is what we're called to. We're called to be like Christ. The perfect person is Jesus Christ. Insofar as we grow in our own faith, we become more Christlike. We're becoming more like Faramir, the heavenly person we're supposed to be. That's great. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Now, you have been writing on Lord of the Rings and speaking on Lord of the Rings and Tolkien for, what, 25 years? [00:46:37] Speaker A: Yes, that sounds about right. [00:46:39] Speaker B: So I think it was in the end of the. It was around the end of the 90s, around 2000 was when a lot of those, the first, I think, nationwide surveys, at least for England, maybe the United Kingdom where they were talking about what are the greatest books of the 20th century. And much to the critics chagrin lord of the Rings kept showing up in multiple different tests. I guess, again, 25 years later, looking back, having spoken to so many audiences. What do you think keeps people, keeps the next generation delighting in these stories? [00:47:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it is really astonishing because if you look at the history of the Lord of the Rings, I mean, it's not that old. It was published, obviously, just after World War II. So it was a huge hit when it first came out in the 50s, became a rather bizarre bestseller in the counterculture of the 1960s, and then in 1990s, obviously won all these opinion polls. And this is significant. It's before the Peter Jackson films that came out in 2001, 2002 and 2003. And that, of course, then increased the popularity even further. So this is an absolute phenomenon. And what I love about it is that it allows us to evangelize the wider culture, because many people, you mentioned the word Jesus or you mentioned the Bible, they walk away, shut their eyes, shut their ears. But you can talk about the Lord of the Rings, and you can talk about christian themes in the Lord of the Rings and make parallels with the gospel, and they're fascinated. Right. Because this is a point of connection. So it really is a great tool for evangelizing our agnostic culture. Obviously, more avowedly, obviously, Christian works you can talk to other Christians about, but they're not going to be read by non Christians. Lord of the Rings has been read by millions of people, atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Christians of all persuasions, and leads everybody who reads it closer to the fullness of reality in Jesus Christ, particularly to that fundamentally religious and Catholic Christianity of which Tolkien, of course, was himself a believer. [00:48:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And I know for me, I think, that the message of kind of hope is just so rich and palpable that there is a journey we're all to undertake. The road as it talks about in the story and as you talk about at different points, right. The road goes on and on. And we have, in a way, to discover our path. We're not just here to do one thing after another. We're here to be on a journey. And if we remember where our journey know, Viktor Frankl would talk about that when he reflected on his time in the concentration camps during the second world war under the National Socialists. Right. That a man who has a why can endure anyhow. But I also think a man who has no why, who has no meaning and purpose, cannot endure anyhow. And so I feel like that there is that element that I do think it helps us to see ourselves, in a way, a little bit as characters in the story, not as a form of escapist literature, but as the healthy escape from the kind of modern secularism, to a sense that I have a purpose, that I have a journey, that behind all the shadows, behind all the clouds, all the darkness, the sun and the stars will come out. And that, if I remember that, it does kind of, I think, somewhat ennoble, but it doesn't replace the gospel in any sense. But I do think it helps the gospel to almost come to, I mean, absolutely it does. [00:50:22] Speaker A: I mean, Tolkien says in his famous essay on fairy stories that the stories hold up a mirror to man. They show us ourselves. And the point is that we are, each of our lives is a story, and each of our lives is a journey. So therefore, if our life story is also a journey, then, and our life is a quest, the quest to get to heaven, that's the purpose of everybody's life, is to get to heaven. And either we take that journey or we refuse that journey. And one way we actually keep our eyes on the journey, on the road is also to look up from the road. So we're also anthropos, he who turns upwards. So that's why Sam wise Gamge is the perfect epitome of anthropos, when he says, in one of the darkest moments in the story, above all shadows rides the sun. And if we keep our eyes on heaven, keep our eyes on the gospel and on the presence of God, then it doesn't matter how dark things are in our lives, we will be aware that above all darkness, above all shadows, above all power of evil, the God reigns. And all we have to do is keep our feet on the road, going towards the finishing line, knowing that if we do that, as good and faithful servants, we reach the happy ending. [00:51:29] Speaker B: Well, that's a beautiful place to finish our time. Today, again, we've been talking with Joseph Pierce, author and visiting professor of literature at Avemere University. This year we've been discussing his book Frodo's journey, discovering the hidden meaning of the Lord of the Rings. Those who are interested in more about Joseph Pierce's work and teachings and writings can go to Jpearce, Co. We do have a prior episode on the Silmerellion and on the Lord of the Rings on the catholic theology show. So thank you so much for spending time with us today. [00:52:04] Speaker A: My pleasure. Thanks, Michael, for having me. [00:52:08] Speaker C: Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the catholic theology show.