Speaker 0 00:00:00 Most Christians are what I call Old Testament Christians. I was one, and I loved the Lord my God, with all my heart, soul, and strength, but I didn't love him with my mind. And it's impossible to really love Jesus until you begin to love him with your mind. And unless you read the Gospels mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you'll never learn who Jesus really is.
Speaker 2 00:00:30 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show sponsor Bab Emory University. I'm your host, Michael Daphne. And today I am thrilled to be joined by, uh, Mike Tim, who is the author of The Journey to Ultimate Friendship, recently published by Word Among Us Press. So welcome to the show. Oh, it's
Speaker 0 00:00:50 Great to be here, Michael. Great.
Speaker 2 00:00:52 So happy to have you here. And, uh, people may, uh, find it of interest, uh, that Michael, uh, Tim, uh, received an honorary doctorate, uh, from Veer University in 2008, actually still remember your address, uh, sitting there. And I remember you were challenging, uh, the graduates to embrace duty as kind of freedom, right. That, that, uh, and, and that there was a great, we we shouldn't run from duty.
Speaker 0 00:01:21 Right.
Speaker 2 00:01:21 But in a way should Right. Embrace it as right a path to real kind of finding, discovering meaning and, and purpose. And, uh, I just loved the fact that you took so seriously, uh, that task and, uh, you know, of, of trying to kind of awaken in students this recovery of meaning and purpose.
Speaker 0 00:01:42 Well, it's always a great honor to talk to young people, and I, I just love it when I can express some of the knowledge that I've learned through the years.
Speaker 2 00:01:50 Well, we're certainly looking forward to that today. And, um, you know, um, Michael, uh, Tim has, uh, just a tremendous background in the business world and in legal world. Uh, one of the things that's kind of, uh, I think probably particularly unique is, uh, that you spent 16 years as Chairman of Prison Fellowship International, you know, and, and, and your book is about friendship. Ultimately the friendship with Jesus Christ, uh, and also our friendships, right. With family, our friendships with fellow workers, uh, and the Apostolates friendships, uh, with so many others. Uh, so, uh, maybe could you just, you know, say a little bit about your, you know, your work, and I think Prison Fellowship is something maybe that people, I think a lot of people maybe aren't very familiar with, uh, but maybe a little bit about how did you, you know, get interested in that work? And maybe, you know, one story about how did you bring kind of friendship to maybe a place in which people were particularly cut off from friendship?
Speaker 0 00:02:56 Well, it's interesting because, uh, I had no idea of wanting to be involved in prison work. Uh, Nancy, my wife and I, were doing a tremendous amount of work with the poor in Honduras, Nicaragua, and, uh, Peru. Our son Michael, had just moved to Africa. And yes, Chuck Coast and the founder of Prison Fellowship came to me and we had lunch, the four of us, uh, his wife, my wife, and Chuck myself. And he said, Mike, what's God's calling in your life? And I said, this is a 1990. Mm-hmm. I said, the poor. And he said, well, who do you think are the poorest of the poor? And I said, Chuck, I've seen so many poor people, I don't know who's the poorest. And he said, I submit this prisoner because they've, not only are they poor, they've lost everything, including their identity and, uh, and dignity.
Speaker 0 00:03:43 And that still didn't move me until he said, Mike, you're a Roman Catholic. I'm a Southern Baptist. He says, unless we stand together, there's no hope. Come join the board and we will stand as brothers to the world as uh, brothers in Jesus Christ. That appealed to me because I was speaking a lot of unity. And so, uh, in 1990, I joined Prison Fellowship us mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it was seven years later that Chuck called me from Paris and said that he was stepping down as Chairman of Prison Fellowship International. Would I take his place? And at that time, I was traveling around the world, uh, meeting with leaders as an emissary from Congress, from certain believers in Congress. They would give me entree into, uh, into meeting presidents, prime ministers and what have you. So I had cut my teeth sort of on evangelism and with the, uh, the greatest, and now I was going to go with the least last and lost.
Speaker 2 00:04:39 Wow. Wow. That's, um, that's quite a gift. I remember in your book here, I think you tell a story, um, about, I don't remember where it was. It was, it was a particular prison that you spoke at, and you, you had a very unique way of trying to help them to encounter Jesus Christ, maybe as a fellow.
Speaker 0 00:05:01 Tough. Well, I think you're, you're talking about an encounter I had in El Salvador, which was, um, been a very troubled country for many, many years. And, uh, with over small popula population of about 4 million plus people. And, uh, gangs of over 50,000. And I was in a prison, uh, uh, one of the roughest gangs in the world, MS 13. And every single prisoner in that prison was a member of that gang. They had, uh, 13 written incursive under arms, thirteens under cheeks. Their heads shaved, they're all branded with 13. And the, uh, the, uh, head of the penal system in, in El Salvador had set up a DiUS. And everybody came in in suits. And all these men are sitting there, uh, sort of like I am right now, with my arms crossed, looking at the ceiling. And I knew there was no way that they didn't wanna be there, and there was no way they were gonna hear what I wanted to say.
Speaker 0 00:06:06 So I took off my colt, rolled up my sleeves, and got off the dia, said much to the consternation of, of the, uh, officials who were there. And I walked down the middle aisle of these men. There was about 800 men, and I didn't say a word. I walked down, I walked back, I walked down, I walked back. And then finally, um, I turned to them and I said, I've heard about you guys and you look very tough, but I've been in prisons on every continent. So I've seen a lot of tough people. Uh, but none of you are as tough as the toughest man I ever met. This man was so tough, he died for me. And I don't think any of you would've the courage to die for me. And like you, he was, he was beaten, he was thrown in a prison.
Speaker 0 00:06:49 He was deserted, but he did that all for me. And you've heard his name, but you don't know anything about him. So I'm gonna tell you a little bit about this man. His name is Jesus. So that was, uh, a breakthrough. And they never moved when all the time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I spoke for about 25, 30 minutes and at the end of it, and I didn't know, you know, I was just, it was just the Holy Spirit speaking through me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> I had honestly had not planned, I never had done it before. I never, mm-hmm. <affirmative> probably will do it again. And, um, all of a sudden when I finished, uh, about 35 guys jumped up and came to round me and started hugging me, crying. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, I, I was, I was so, I felt so terrible, except for the fact that I remember what Mother Teresa said that, you know, we're not called, the results we're called to, uh, be faithful and that somebody would follow up. And those men who had come forward, um, um, they heard the truth and God had planted a seed in their heart. So, we'll, you know, whatever, I won't find out till I go to heaven, what happened. Mm-hmm. But, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I just let the Holy Spirit lead me.
Speaker 2 00:08:01 Well, that's, uh, such a beautiful, and, you know, really just kind of overwhelming story. I remember, you know, when I was reading it, just, you know, having, I think in some ways, I will say reading your book, one of the things I found is that it's just kind of inspiring. It kind of like made me want to go out and be better friends with Jesus, help other people get to know Jesus, and take my own friendships more seriously. And, and I love just the way you kind of tell these stories. And I think it's also helpful just for us to step back for a moment. It's kind of easy for us to think, oh, it's hard to be a prisoner because that seems scary and we can understand it. But what we don't quite realize that is that often in modern society, we somehow live within some kind of, uh, I don't know, some kind of like walls of separation, walls of loneliness.
Speaker 2 00:08:47 Uh, mother Teresa would speak about a kind of poverty she saw in the United States that was worse than around the world. And since we're in it, you know, we're in the picture, we can't see it. Uh, we don't even know that the water's boiling because Right. We've been the frog being in the water. And I just looked at a couple studies, uh, but the British, uh, the bbc, you know, in, in England or in the UK in 2015, did a loneliness experiment. They surveyed over, I think 55,000 people around the world. And they found out that interestingly, the most lonely people were 16 to 25 year olds. 40% were lonely at a time in a way that typically you would've imagine as a time of Greg, you know, gregariousness and connection and easy making friends. But for whatever reason, in our contemporary world, young people are the loneliest group.
Speaker 2 00:09:40 Even the older, I think it was like, I dunno if it was 70 and older or 75 and older, only 27% of them are lonely. Um, so we have this kind of phenomenon of loneliness. There was another study by the American Enterprise Institute in 2021 called The State of American Friendship. Uh, and two things that it really noticed was just how much as a whole, from 1990 to 2021 30 years, uh, you had this decline of friendship. Uh, and let me just get the numbers here cause I think they're kind of interesting said. In 19 90, 50 5% of American men reported having at least six close friends. Today, only 27, half of men have six or more. In 1990, today it's one in four. The survey found that 15% of men have no close friendships at all. In 1990, it was 3%. Uh, so a fivefold increase, there seems to be overall a decline, uh, friendship recession. And it seems to be exaggerated in men.
Speaker 0 00:10:47 There's no question. Men have been Yeah. Emasculated over the last 30 plus years. And this has led to, uh, um, an increased rate of suicide. Yeah. And UCLA did a very similar study with men. They were sponsored by one of the major insurance companies, and they found the exact same thing that the loneliest group, uh, of Americans are 15 to 25, and consequently their suicide rate is, has gone up dramatically. Yeah. And, um, you know, in reality, if you don't understand friendship, there's no way you can have a relationship with Jesus. And, uh, one of the things that I think our church, the Catholic Church as well as other churches have not done, and that is really brought home to people, the humanity of Jesus. Mm. And you know, when a gospel is presented, it presented outta context, uh, each Sunday, and people don't understand that there is a, a flow in the gospels to right up to where we are today and about to, uh, observe the crucifixion and then resurrection.
Speaker 0 00:11:56 And I have found that, um, very few people understand the, what Jesus is saying at the time he's saying it. What's his emotional state? Who's he speaking to? Uh, how does that affect me? Uh, these things that, that when I teach, I set the stage of here's where Jesus is, for example, going from Nicodemus to the woman at the well. You see Nicodemus, Jesus, very serious, very direct. And then in chapter four, John, then, then going to the woman at the well. And how he is so sort of disingenuous. He's just so kind and, and whimsical to this woman mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and it's important to understand that because that's the way we are and that's the way mm-hmm. <affirmative> we are with friends, is that we, we, people know who we are by how we act and how we, uh, are we approachable, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's one of the biggest things. And Jesus was always approachable. And that's one of the biggest things in friendship that, that I know is being a front approachable and not being critical.
Speaker 2 00:13:10 Yeah. So, uh, about a hundred years before, uh, your book, there was a book called The Friendship of Christ by Robert Hugh Benson, uh, who's a, he was a author of Lord of the World. But he wrote this and I saw, it was kind of interesting cuz it reminded me very much of, of themes of your book. Um, but he says at times, this is right at the beginning of the friendship of Christ. And he writes this, probably, I think this is written around like 1910 or so, um, uh, I can't remember, but around that time period, 19 10, 19 20, he says this right. That the of the blaze of divinity in Christ to him who sees it may be so bright as to bewilder him with regard to the humanity. Right. Um, and he says, therefore it says that like, um, Catholics then above all others, because they proclaim the divinity of Jesus, almost are prone to forget the delights that are to be with the sons of men.
Speaker 2 00:14:12 Right. Uh, to remember in a way that Jesus is like, is, is human among us. He writes here, devout souls often complain of their loneliness on earth. Right. They pray, they frequent the sacraments, they do their best to uphold the Christian precepts. Right. They adore Christ as God, yet of the intimate knowledge of and companionship with him in the D which the divine friendship consists. They have experienced little or nothing. And I thought it was so beautiful in a way that what Robbie Hu Benson was doing a hundred years ago, you're trying to really done throughout your, uh, ministry and teaching, but in, in your book today, uh, could you say a little bit more about that sense that like even many Christians who might kind of believe in the creeds or believe that Jesus is the son of God, believe that Jesus is the divine, uh, have a hard time really believing and connecting with Jesus as human.
Speaker 0 00:15:11 Yep. I think this, I think that most Christians, uh, and I don't think this is an overstatement, are what I call Old Testament Christians. I was one, and I love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, and strength. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I didn't love 'em with my mind. And it's impossible to really love Jesus until you begin to love him with your mind. And unless you read the gospels, uh, you'll never learn who Jesus really is. Uh, Francis Fernandez, in his epic work in conversations, God writes, on the fourth Friday of Easter, he, he talks about, uh, uh, being friends with Jesus through the gospels and he says, you can't love somebody you don't know. Mm. And I think that, uh, as I look at my life, I was very devout and my life, there was never a time I went through a period of doubt through the grace of God.
Speaker 0 00:16:06 Um, but, uh, I was not thinking, talking and acting like Jesus until one night I went to a dinner and a, a businessman, a guy who worked at Ford Motor Company, got up and gave a very short testimony how he had turned his life over to Jesus and given him everything. And it was a point in my life where I had succeeded to the, uh, zenith of my career and I was lonely. And, uh, I felt, you know, what was it? Why had, had I spent all those hours trying to do it, and it was a time when interest rates went up to 21%. And, uh, I won't bore you with the, with the business story, but it was, we had, I have a partner and we had survived and we were doing extremely well. And I would go to community Sunday and I would beg God to feel something because I felt I was moving away not towards God.
Speaker 0 00:16:59 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he answered my prayer. And that changed everything. One night I gave him my marriage, my children, uh, my family, my career, my money. I gave him everything. And from that moment on, everything began to change my life. But it wasn't until two years later when I met a man who, um, I'd become very evangelical and, uh, had the cure for eternal cancer and I wanted to give it to you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But he started teaching me about Jesus. And we, he would meet me in airports. His name was Doug Co. And he taught me everything he knew about Jesus. And then all of a sudden the scales fell from my eyes and I realized it's Jesus plus nothing. Everything is Jesus. And so mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if you wanna know the Father, you have to love Jesus. If you wanna feel the power of the Holy Spirit, you have to feel Jesus. You have to learn about him. And, uh, he made me promise this. He said, I will teach you everything I know on one condition that you promised me. You'll never spend a day outside the gospels reading a passage and thinking about what Jesus is doing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I made that promise about 37 or 38 years ago. And I've kept it every day from that day to this day.
Speaker 2 00:18:11 Wow. That is, uh, that's, that's really beautiful. I, uh, it reminds me of, you know, say that famous line in the gospel of John, where Jesus says, right. I no longer call you servants, but I call you friends. And so this is John 1515, but he says this, I have called you friends for all that I have heard from my father, I have made known to you. Right. So this idea that Jesus makes his friends, because he makes known to us through everything that he does and says, and all that is recorded in the scriptures. Right. He makes known to us. Right. All right. That the Father is all that the Father has. Like, in a way, we begin to learn how to have a deeper friendship through Jesus, because we ultimately are beginning to see the friendship ultimately that the Son has with the Father.
Speaker 0 00:19:06 What, what happens with when you become friends with Jesus, it is like, I've been married now for 60 years going on 61.
Speaker 2 00:19:13 Wow. Congratulations.
Speaker 0 00:19:14 And, um, I love my wife a thousand times more than when we got married. Mm-hmm. Because we have lived life together. And the longer we've been together, the more we become one mm-hmm. <affirmative> and spirit. And it is, uh, that's why God gave us the gift of marriage is so that we would understand what intimacy is. And that intimacy and the intimacy I have with Jesus, uh, just correlates. Mm-hmm. And I was in Africa, uh, just before Covid and, uh, it was, we went to mass at a university at chapel in Kampala, Uganda. And the priest called us up, uh, priest gave a talk on marriage, and there was like eight or hundred or 900 kids in this, no, no. We were the only white people mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we were sitting on the side and he's coming down to give the final blessing. And he looks over at us and he says, see those two old white people?
Speaker 0 00:20:11 He says, you can tell they're in love. He said, would you come up on the elder? And so my wife and I reluctantly went up on the alter and he said, could you tell me how long have you been married? I said, uh, 58 years. He says, no, no, no. How long have you been married? He thought I said, I was saying I was 58 years old, <laugh>. And he, he was said, you've been married 58 years, and of course that's much longer than the average life expectancy mm-hmm. In Uganda. And so he said, the young people, can you hear they have been married 58 years ago, oh, s and s and it was wonderful. We came out and we have a number of schools in East Africa, uh, through our foundation and Wow. And a number, it's another story. But, uh, there was a bunch of kids, they were so thrilled we were there. And the priest said, can you gimme one secret? I said, yeah, father. I said, it's very simple. The more you love Jesus, the more you love your wife. And the more she loves Jesus, the more she loves her husband. And I said, that's, that's, that's, that's the whole key to a happy marriage.
Speaker 2 00:21:11 Yeah. That's, uh, like Fulton Sheen has that beautiful book. Right. Three to get married. Yeah. Right. You know, uh, the husband and wife, uh, need to invite Jesus into their marriage. Now, maybe just for somebody who is, and, and, and I mean, obviously this could be a whole podcast, this could be like this, this could be a whole show forever. Right. But just what would you say to somebody who, you know, is hearing this and perhaps has that sense of, you know, I wish I had a friendship with Jesus. They kind of see in themselves a little sense of like a lack of intimacy. And, you know, not, not that they're not willing, but at least for them, nothing yet has, they haven't quite figured out how to do it. What would you suggest?
Speaker 0 00:21:54 Well, I've done this a a number of times. I've had exactly people say to me mm-hmm. <affirmative>, am I going to go to hell or, uh, um, I, I say, I I will say, do you know who you've been praying to? Because so often when we get dry mm-hmm. <affirmative> and feel no answer coming from God, we, we have to realize we've probably have been praying to ourselves. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's a very common thing to have happened. It's happened to me. And I said, you know what? All of a sudden I feel dry. Why? Cuz I've been praying to myself, not to God. And so I, so I, I tell, typically, I tell people, open up the Book of John and read it for 20 minutes, and then say, ask Jesus' question, are you real? Hm. Are you in my life? I wanna be in your life.
Speaker 0 00:22:39 And God will answer your prayer. I've said that in prisons. I've said it to people after I've spoken that they've come up. How can I become friends with Jesus? And I, I I think that, you know, we talk about having a personal relationship with Jesus. I think those words are ridiculous. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because, uh, I've been married 60 years. I've never said I have a personal relationship with my wife. I would say she's my best friend. Oh, okay. And, and I think when we think of relationship as friendship, it casts a whole different light on, because now you begin to understand, w we understand what the word friend means. We don't understand what the word personal means. Okay. And I think that, that having friendship with Jesus is, it's, it's like getting married. It grows into a deeper and deeper and deeper relationship of love. And you begin to feel the love of Jesus in a way you've never felt it before.
Speaker 2 00:23:34 Uh, that's so beautifully put. We're gonna go ahead and, uh, take a break. And, uh, when we get back, I wanna look at kind of two big themes and we'll let you also love to hear a little bit more about even why you went ahead and, uh, decided to write the book. But I definitely wanna, one, I wanna look at a couple teachings of the church on the theology of evangelization so that people understand in a way that to talk about evangelization, uh, and right, this sharing the good news is not something other than so to speak, right. Being Catholic, it really is kind of at the heart of what the church teaches about herself. And then secondly, I'd really love to kind of explore a little bit of that. If we are in this friendship recession, especially among men, what are practical tips that we can look at right. In order to somehow right, foster friendships, build new friendships, uh, again, what, what are ways that we can do that? So right after the break, I look forward to talking about those themes with you.
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Speaker 2 00:25:06 Welcome back to the Catholic Theology Show. Today, uh, I'm happy to have as our guest, uh, Michael Tim often goes by Mike, uh, Mike Tim, who is the author of Journey to Ultimate Friendship. And we've been discussing, right, the importance of friendship with Jesus, discovering that friendship, sharing that friendship with others, and also the importance of friendships with, with other people, and how essential this is to us. And so, I wanted to begin, uh, in the second part first by looking a little bit at kind of this theology of evangelization. Uh, that kind of evangelization is not something other than Right. The fundamental mission of the church. Uh, it's not kind of optional. And I just wanna highlight a few teachings of the church over the past really 60 years. Uh, so we can really kind of make sure we hear and understand that this is properly theological reflection upon the nature of the mystery of God.
Speaker 2 00:26:07 Just, it belongs to the nature of God, that creation is fitting. God wishes to communicate himself to creation. The incarnation is also appropriate cuz God wishes to communicate himself more perfectly through his incarnate Son. So it's appropriate that God sends His Holy Spirit cuz he wishes to communicate himself to us, to creation. And it's appropriate, right? That he communicates himself to us through his church, through the apostles, the bishops scripture, the sacraments through the creeds. All of these are modes of communication, right? And if it belongs to God as creator, and as incarnate redeemer, and as spirit, and as the spirit who inspires the church to communicate, then it also belongs to the members of the church to communicate those same realities, right? And to invite people into that deeper communion. Right? Vatican two, uh, said this in the document, a gente, right? It said, the whole church is missionary, not just missionaries. The whole church is missionary. This means right each and every, not just each and every Catholic, but each, each and every parish is missionary. Paul the six, uh, wrote this evangelization is the church's deepest identity.
Speaker 2 00:27:34 The deepest identity of the church is to evangelize, to announce the good news. Right? The church is, um, mother Teresa would often say, right, that she is, uh, that, that the missionaries of charity, this is not social work. They're, they're, they're, they're sharing the love of Jesus. The church's deepest identity is not to be a benefit to society. It's not to organize, um, uh, letting fish fries, or Right. All these things are fun, they're great, right? But the church's deepest identity, in a way, her identity is nothing other than to have been sent by Jesus. And to be then sent by Jesus and to continue to be sent by Jesus. For others, she exists, Paul, the six rights in order to evangelize. So the identity of the church is evangelization, and she exists in order to evangelize. John Paul II would develop this in the new evangelization, right at the very beginning of his treatment, he would say, no believer in Christ, sorry, in the very beginning of his, um, pontificate in his first encyclical, the mission of the redeemer. No believer in Christ, no institution of the church can avoid its supreme duty, namely to proclaim Christ to all peoples
Speaker 2 00:28:49 Benedict the 16th. Hope Francis have continued this theme. But I think it's very important that we remember that to be church is to evangelize, right? This, in a way, is our supreme duty. It's our supreme identity. Uh, so your life in, in many ways, uh, right as a Catholic, uh, as a layman, has been dedicated to kind of this, that trying to help carry out the task. And I would really say the gift of evangelization. So could you say a little bit about some of the things you've done and, and how you discovered that? And some of, I know you've worked with, uh, different cardinals and bishops, right?
Speaker 0 00:29:27 Carry that out. You know, I, I've worked with people from every background, uh, Christian background in particular. But when I made this decision that everything, I was gonna live every moment of my life for Jesus, and that, um, I realized that I was, uh, his, his servant in a sense that I was his allocator. He had given me so much mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that I was gonna allocate my time, my treasure, my relationships, all for him, and to, to learn from him how he wanted me to do that. And I, and I did that. One of the things in reading the Vatican two documents, which have been so misinterpreted, uh, what really struck me was the doctrine of on the laity, and particularly the apostle of like, towards, like, that the church recognizes that the layman or woman can take the presence of Jesus to a place that the church could never realize mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:30:24 <affirmative>. And that this is the supreme responsibility of a Catholic layman, uh, and lay woman. And to be honest with you, I've seen it more in the Evangelical church than I've seen it in the Catholic church. But, uh, I have always proclaimed that I am a Roman Catholic, not an American Catholic. I'm a Roman Catholic, and a man under authority. And I believe that, uh, it is our supreme duty to, uh, and and I, I pray all the time, particularly as, as I've gotten older and I realize that, uh, I can see the end light at the end of the tunnel. I, I, I know that every race can only be won by sprinting. And I want to take every single opportunity I can to share Jesus before he calls me home. And I think that that should be proclaimed. It's not being proclaimed. And, uh, I think it should be proclaimed.
Speaker 0 00:31:18 And, you know, uh, uh, very rarely do I hear a challenge made to the people. It's, it's more prey, pay and obey. And, and as opposed to really challenging us, and this is why marriages are on such a steep decline, et cetera, we don't understand what relationship is mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we should be talking, if I was a, a pastor, I would, or a priest, I would be talking about relationship every single Sunday. And as I said, saying, here's where Jesus is in his ministry. Mm-hmm. Here's why he's trying to convey to us, here's what he wants you to convey to others. I I, I feel so strongly about this. I, my whole family knows this. And I think that as a family, we are no, no question. We have dedicated our resources to, to evangelism.
Speaker 2 00:32:10 Well, that's a, that's, you know, inspiring and challenging. Right? Um, it's, it's one thing for the, you know, the, the church. We, we have to be kind of, uh, you know, docile in a way to recovering these teachings, which is that the church is missionary. She exists in order to evangelize. And I love the way you put it too, that the particular poss of the laity, the evangelization that the laity can do is speaking in a particular way to other laity. And not that, of course, we, we need everybody evangelizing, but, and it's great. In your own story, you mentioned it was a businessman who invited you to dinner or something. Right. And spoke and shared his testimony. And it's like you're, you know, that was the occasion in which kind of God, you know, opened your eyes and, and opened your ears and, and, and what a gift that, uh, that was there.
Speaker 2 00:32:57 And I think it's also something that there, there is a kind of a difficulty that I sometimes say the church is a victim of her own success. Uh, when the church is successful and grows, she gets things like parishes. She gets things like diocese. You get things like buildings, uh, sometimes in the Middle Ages, these became, uh, sources of wealth, uh, which then people might aspire to without an calling to holiness or evangelization. But really just, you know, kind of wanting the power. I don't think there's a lot of power involved in the church today, but people love, but people can be so busy managing like properties that we shift the mindset from evangelization to kind of maintaining the buildings, which is a lot of work, and maintaining all this stuff. And, and that's okay. I don't know. I mean, it, it happens, but somehow we, we can't, that's not our identity.
Speaker 2 00:33:58 Our identity isn't that we own this must property in, in a certain place. Our identity right? Is that we're children of God upon whom and in whom it's upon whom the spirit has been, uh, you know, descended and in whom the spirit lives. So that we can exist in order to evangelize. Um, you, I, I love, even if, if I may, uh, you know, share with our listeners and viewers, right? You even, you know, yesterday had a, had a surgery and today on, on your eyes. And today you can't even, you can only see out of one eye. And I loved the fact though, that you're like, I'm gonna be here because I only got a little few. I, you know, it's like evangelization always, so to speak, and sharing the good news of the gospel, like that comes first. Right? And we have, have to kind of be motivated, uh, to do that. Um, you, you, I think one of the groups that you're involved with today is Alpha. Yes. Um, is there, you know, maybe would you say a word about that group or any other group that you're involved with today, so that maybe people that again, are kind of hungering either to be more deeply evangelized or to share in the evangelizing mission of the church. Maybe what's something impractical that they might, uh, you know, maybe a program that they might connect with or, uh, again, simply in their own lives?
Speaker 0 00:35:13 Well, I think Al Alpha is, uh, depending on how it's done, a 10 to 11 week course mm-hmm. <affirmative> a basic course just about introducing Jesus into your life. And, uh, I don't care where you are, uh, at what point in your life, just to go back to basics. You forget how much, um, you, you, you know, or should know about Jesus. And it, the first, it's built around, um, dinner or lunch mm-hmm. <affirmative> or, um, some dessert or whatever. And then, uh, a short video and then discussion. And the first week is who is Jesus. And so you go around and circle and say, here, here's my tell you here who I think Jesus is. And it's amazing. Over 30 million people have taken the course around the world now, and I'm chairman of, of Alpha for Catholics. And we had about a third of the people that take it in the United States are Catholic.
Speaker 0 00:36:09 So I think last year was something, uh, close to 400,000 Catholics took it. And that's a tremendous program. Yes. Uh, uh, Archbishop Viron, when he had his, uh, uh, when he put out this great document becoming joyful missionary disciples, the only thing he mentioned in, in that document was taking Alpha Mm. And, um, and it came out of, uh, the Anglican Church actually in London out of Holy Trinity Brompton. I've been on the board for the last 12 or 13 years, and, uh, the best board I've ever been on mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the, the really unity in Jesus and, uh, respect Father. Now Cardinal Romero, Ken Melissa is one of the biggest mm-hmm. <affirmative> sponsors of Alpha in the world. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:36:59 He was the papal preacher. Right.
Speaker 0 00:37:01 The papal preacher. And he's, he's wonderful. I've had lunch with him a couple times. Okay. And he's just amazing. Uh, the other, uh, wonderful program that the Holy Spirits raised up is through Father John Ricardo and his rescue project. And I know he's been down here at Abe, uh, uh, uh, either in person or on Zoom, uh, talking to young people about it. My wife and I are big supporters of Father John. I've known him for a very long time. We started doing, um, major events, reaching out to men in fellowship in Michigan mm-hmm. <affirmative>, where we'd get people to give their testimonies. And it was much like what Promise Keepers was in the eighties and nineties. And I happened to be on that board, so I knew how to do it. Uh
Speaker 2 00:37:46 Oh, that's great. And actually, we were able to have Father John Ricardo, not only at Avi Maria, but on our podcast. Uh, so it was great. Got to hear about his rescue project, acts 29, and just, yeah. It's
Speaker 0 00:37:57 Just, he just
Speaker 2 00:37:58 Beautiful ministry.
Speaker 0 00:37:59 He just, he just has a, a, a tremendous anointing of the Holy Spirit along with Father Mike Schmitz, who's the same way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he has a tremendous anointing. And these are, these are men that bring tremendous hope to the church mm-hmm. <affirmative> and to, uh, really inspire people, lay people to get involved mm-hmm. <affirmative> and to, uh, reach out in the name of Jesus. And you can, but you can't reach out in the name of Jesus until you know him. And once you start getting to know him through Matthew, mark, Luke, and John, and you can never exhaust it, as it says in the last chapter of John, you can never exhaust your knowledge of Jesus. And seeing how he thinks, talks and acts is just so amazing. I've taught the book with John maybe about seven times, and I'm just doing it again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> to, uh, a Catholic brother, uh, who wanted to go deeper and, and I do about a half a chapter an hour, and I'm just amazed. I've forgotten how much I've forgotten and how much I'm learning myself and going through it, even though I've been through it so many times.
Speaker 2 00:39:01 Yeah, that's great. I think it was, uh, Fulton Sheen when, uh, he was, uh, uh, won an Emmy for his, uh, I think it was, if it was The Angel's Blackboard. But anyway, it was like his, uh, early TV show on really just catechesis Right. Evangelization. Uh, but anyway, he thanked his, uh, writers Matthew, mark, Luke, and John <laugh> <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:39:20 I remember that.
Speaker 2 00:39:21 So, um, so let's, uh, just shifting now, let's turn to what about friendship? Uh, we're in the midst of a cult, uh, friendship recession, you know, what are some practical, maybe what are some obstacles you think that we need to recognize in fostering friendships and what are maybe tips for making new friends, renewing old friends? Uh, I love Chapter 21 in your book, being a friend, you talked about they need to be authentic and consistent to be available and approachable. I thought this is, you know, very helpful, but maybe just, you know, could you say a little bit more for, if you meet, uh, people today, again, somebody who's listening who might wanna say, sure. I, I, I want more friends. How do I go about doing that?
Speaker 0 00:40:06 Well, I, I think first of all, um, uh, prayer is the number one thing I do before I do anything. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that's, uh, asking God for friends around. I've done that. I've, I've asked God to bring, uh, friends around me to help support the work that I felt called to do. And he has done it mm-hmm. <affirmative> and done it in different ways than I expected, but nevertheless, he knew what my need was, and he met that need. So I think it be, first of all, it begins with prayer number two. I think it begins with openness. And we live in sort of a, a, the word cautious. I we're suspicious of, of people. And I find I, I, I love when I check out at Publix, uh, when one of the, uh, Haitian ladies say, you have a blessed day. And I've got into that habit wherever I I, when I'm going to get something from mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:41:02 <affirmative>, CVS or Publix or something, I try to say that to the cashier just and to smile. And, um, you know, uh, it, friendship is contagious. It's, it's caught not taught. And, um, you start acting friendly and all of a sudden people will open up to you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, I've, I've had so many experiences where, where people have opened up to me and told me the most intimate details of their life because they're lonely and they, they, they, everybody has the, the DNA of of, of the father son and the Holy Spirit in their pregnant, in their heart. And they're, and just to, to find someone that can ignite that in their person. And, and you can do that by, uh, as I say in my book, I don't think, um, anybody I know would think me as unfriendly. I, I try to be courteous and open to anybody that I meet and talk to.
Speaker 0 00:42:04 And I think that's, that's one of the things is, is being open and friendly. And I, I say, I have never had anybody say to me, Mike, don't pray for me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and a lot of nonbelievers, a lot of my Jewish friends in Detroit, I, when they would have a problem, I would say, oh, I'm gonna pray for you. And nobody's ever said to me, Mike, please don't pray. Uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> and just this, this, it's a demeanor. And to be honest with you, it it is, uh, it is. I love, I love the book or the series, the Chosen, because it's putting so much, uh, picture into scripture and, and the man who ha uh, happens to be a Catholic plain, Jesus is just, I think it's, it's through the power of the Holy Spirit. This has happened. Cuz I don't like smarmy religious movies.
Speaker 0 00:43:00 And this is the most realistic, uh, presentation of the gospel I've ever seen. And I've recommended it to, uh, scores of people. And every single person says, this is Mike. This is just fantastic. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's helped me tremendously. Yeah. Seeing the Jesus was humorous. Yeah. Jesus was tired. Jesus didn't feel good. Jesus did use hyperbole. He did use, he was like us in everything but sin. Yeah. And for people to begin to realize that. Yeah, I understand. I mean, I worship his divinity every day. <laugh>. But, but, but I relate to his humanity mm-hmm. <affirmative> every day as well. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:43 Right. And the church always, uh, really insisted on always holding those two together. Uh, that's, that's so helpful. And maybe, you know, even just in my own life, one thing I've found, uh, that I found two, two moments in a way when friendships happen, and they happen in lots of different ways, but, um, one is where you kind of, and CS Lewis will describe this, sometimes as you know, lovers look face to face and friends stand side by side looking at something. And in a way, we have to discover interests in ourselves because we, when we have interests, then we can have shared interests, and then we can enjoy having another person who shares those interests. It's kind of, it's, again, it's like you talk about friendship being caught, it's almost like friendship becomes sometimes a byproduct of being interested in the world or interested in something and then discovering other people who are interested in it. Uh, and so that's one thing I found is, you know, sometimes you have to like throw yourself into developing new interests. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:44:43 What you're talking about is being generous with yourself. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:44:46 Yeah. Right. Really before reality. And then in sharing that with others and inviting others. And when you do that, then you're not also the, you're not necessarily like the teacher who's the, who's the higher friend teaching the lower friend. You're just another friend looking at something that's more interesting than both of us almost. So it has that kind of generosity. The other thing I've also found in my own life, especially as I've gotten older, uh, is the willingness to kind of, the more open we, the more open I am with my own struggles and, and the way I work through them or the difficulties of life allows, kind of like, if you feel like your friendships are on the surface, maybe I'm part of the reason that they're on the surface, and that when I'm willing to be more genuine and open and vulnerable in a friendship, I found, you know, nine times outta 10, the other person.
Speaker 2 00:45:45 Right. Reciprocates, no question. And then all of a sudden, by the end of that conversation, I feel that that wasn't a shallow connection, but that, that was kind of an, a more authentic, genuine connection. So the kind of irony that in some ways it's our vulnerabilities, it's our pains, it's our hurts and the way we faced them, right. With hopefully with a little bit of hope, uh, that actually can kind of connect us so that instead of pain and suffering isolating us, which I think is what it does at first, it then becomes the very occasion for deepening friendships.
Speaker 0 00:46:21 I think that, that when you have the repre reputation of not being critical or accepting, and, um, you know, I, I have had Ben Confess just about every send known to man mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and I, you know, obviously I'm not thrilled that they're sitting, but I'm thrilled that they're facing up to their sin and asking for help in doing it. And oftentimes they're not gonna do it to anybody but a friend. And even if you go to confession, if it's, if it's, you know, impersonal, it's not gonna be as deep as it is with a friend asking for help. Yeah. I, I, I, I had a man come ask me if he would be a prayer partner with me, a, a, a leader. I'm not gonna go in because he would be a, a name. Uh, and he said, but first of all, I wanna tell you all my major sins.
Speaker 0 00:47:14 And he said, that way we can really be friends together and you could hold me accountable. And, uh, it was a tremendous honor to me. And he told me, and, and quite frankly, I was surprised at some of the things he did. Um, but that was about five years ago. And we have the deepest friendship, uh, and he trusts me. Uh, you know what, what, this is not a subject that even I discussed with Nancy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, even though I trust her. Totally. It's not, it wouldn't be appropriate. Yeah. And, and to have the trust in, in somebody that will hear me mm-hmm. <affirmative> and not reject me for, for what I am. Yeah. That is, that is the only way, uh, many people can grow into a deep love of knowledge of Jesus. Cuz when you see love you, it is contagious. And when you understand that God is love, he's the ultimate love, uh, then everything falls into place.
Speaker 2 00:48:14 Well, uh, thank you so much for, uh, sharing and summarizing, uh, so many of those tips and experiences and so much of what you've, uh, really learned and discovered, uh, once kind of you surrendered yourself, uh, to Jesus's friend. Um, maybe, uh, just three quick questions I'd like to ask our guests on the show. Uh, so first, what's a book you've been reading?
Speaker 0 00:48:37 What's a book? Well, uh, I just finished Father Gerald Murray's, uh, latest book. And I can't remember the title of it, and I'm reading all the time, Uhhuh. But I, I'd be honest with you, I read, uh, uh, in conversations with, with God mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I do a lot of meditations. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I spend a lot of time in the gospels. Mm-hmm. I teach on Monday mornings. I'm in a couple's group, uh, with my wife and I'm discipling a number of people Yeah. Uh, on Zoom. So, um, when I read, I binge read, you know, like I'm still waiting through Father Ken Cardinal, Ken Melissa's many, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> books on the Holy Spirit and cetera. But be honest with you, uh, first of all, what I do is go to scripture and I love in conversations with God, Cardinal might gave it to me about 18 years ago mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:49:35 And for readers who may not be familiar, that's a seven volume set of kind of daily meditations by, uh, father Francis Fernandez, who's a priest of the Pelli of Opus Day. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:49:46 He, it just tremendous
Speaker 2 00:49:48 Powerful, uh, theme you might often give, uh, the for Lent Easter, you know, that little series, it's beautiful. Cause you get not only 40 days of Lent, that's awesome, but you better pray during those 50 days of Easter. That's even more exciting. So, uh, and
Speaker 0 00:50:00 Magnifica is another favorite of mine every day. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I go to mass every day, so I love That's great. Having the magnifica with me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:50:08 And I think you've already gone ahead and answered the second question, which is, what's one thing you do every day to draw closer to Well, our
Speaker 0 00:50:14 Lord, and that and the rosary, Eucharist and the rosary are my, uh,
Speaker 2 00:50:18 And reading scripture every day. These are beautiful. It's a beautiful, like, um, that's a stable tripod, so to speak, on which a friendship can be based. And maybe just a last question. What's a view of God that you held at one time, uh, that you discovered to be false? And what was the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:50:37 I, I, I don't have a, a view of of God that was ever false. I, I d I didn't feel, uh, I, I really believed mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I worshiped God and I was devout, but it didn't carry over into my day of day, uh, thinking of, um, today. I, I, I feel the presence of God all the time. Yeah. And it wasn't until I surrendered myself completely to him mm-hmm. That I began to feel that way. But I think that I, I, I, it's only through his grace, I never doubted mm-hmm. <affirmative> the existence of God. And I believed that Jesus was his son and our savior. And so when the, when I surrendered, I got so excited because I've been a doer all my life. And so I've accomplished a lot of things and, and, uh, both as a lawyer and then as a businessman. And, uh, I knew how to organize. I knew how to do things and get people involved and what have you. So I was, um, I took off sort of like a, a rocket. I,
Speaker 2 00:51:48 That's, I
Speaker 0 00:51:50 People were very surprised Yeah. That I had such an abrupt change. Well,
Speaker 2 00:51:55 What a what a what, what a gift to be able to discover in a way, right? Uh, not only, uh, the truth of who God is, but what that makes a difference for really the truth of who you are and who God has called you to be His friend. And to invite you to share that friendship with Jesus Christ, with so many others. Uh, again, my guest on the show today has been, uh, Michael Tim. Uh, we've been discussing his book, the Journey to Ultimate Friendship. It's published by word among us Press. So for listeners who, uh, would enjoy this, uh, I would definitely encourage you to consider getting a copy. Uh, I think you will find it, uh, very inspiring to deepen your own friendship, uh, with Jesus Christ. Uh, as well as to help share that friendship with others. And finally, to really take a look at our own friendships and realize that those are genuine gifts and ones that we can, uh, really develop with a little bit more intentionality. So, well, thank you so much for being on the show,
Speaker 0 00:52:53 Show. Thank you, Michael. It's a joy to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 3 00:52:57 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
