Speaker 0 00:00:00 One of Tolkin justifications for writing Creative Fantasy and being involved. It is because not only are we created beings, but we're created in the image of a creator. So we're called to be as creative as possible. And so he, along with McDonald, realized that we can't create ex hello, uh, but he turned it sub creation.
Speaker 2 00:00:24 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Dnet, and today I'm joined by a colleague in the Department of Communications, Dr. John Hasso. Uh, so welcome John.
Speaker 0 00:00:40 Hello. Nice to be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 00:00:42 That's great. And, um, you recently gave a talk on campus, uh, about kind of, uh, the rhetoric of Fairland and Chesterton and Tolkien. And, uh, and I just love to kind of begin maybe with a provocative question, Right. Which is, I mean, it seems like a lot of people think we have so many real problems in the world that are pressing. We have political crises, we have cultural crises, uh, we have global crises, and all these elements. Uh, so if this is the case, then, you know, why should we spend time studying fantasy literature?
Speaker 0 00:01:17 Yeah. I mean, I think that's a valid question, and one that's been asked for, uh, a long time in modernity and, uh, especially at a liberal arts, uh, institution. Uh, it's important to remember that it is, it's part of the tradition, right? So there's just, you know, in some ways it's that simple. But I think it's an important part of the tradition, especially as the modern age has, uh, you know, developed, uh, because it's, it's pushed against some of the, you know, overt materialism, right? It's a, the modern fantasy literature is sort of birthed from the, uh, the romantic period and is seen as, uh, there's something more important than simply the material realities we see around us. Um, and so, uh, with cultural conflict mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the ability to kind of delve into, uh, a ways of giving voice to some of these conflicts and imagining, uh, better futures or simply, uh, escaping some of the brutal realities for a while, uh, are, are important. So anything from just taking a break to pondering and speculating about what world, you know, what the world could be like, uh, in, in, you know, in different ways, I think is is important.
Speaker 2 00:02:19 Interesting. That's really, that is really fascinating in a way that maybe if our understanding of the world is kind of overly limited by, uh, materialism or really just seeing, uh, kind of maybe almost like the oppressive weight mm-hmm. <affirmative> of problems, uh, then in some ways right. Our imagination for solving them becomes limited. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:02:37 Yeah. And so in a lot of ways it is a, uh, a development of our creative faculties that could later be applied, uh, to these quote unquote real world problems. Um, and in other ways it might give voice to real problems that we are neglecting, uh, because of our sort of focus on, on, uh, the material
Speaker 2 00:02:54 World. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, one thing that kind of strikes me is that I think sometimes we contrast storytelling and reason mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yes. Uh, and we think that, uh, maybe, you know, we can use our reason when we do science or logic mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and then we just use our imagination, uh, when we tell stories or read literature. Uh, but it, it dawns on me that I think, um, that there's a strong sense that there's nothing more rational than storytelling and listening to stories. Uh, and sometimes maybe even if you try to tell your dog a story, uh, Right. The dog may fall asleep, uh, on your lap or something, but the dog really doesn't get the story. Yes. And so I think there's something here that, uh, storytelling in some ways is, is a great use of reason mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So how have you seen that in some of the work that you've done?
Speaker 0 00:03:42 Yeah. And so there's, uh, an ancient answer and a more modern answer. Okay. Uh, with, uh, in, in Plato's Gorg, uh, you know, it's a dialogue on rhetoric and, and is critical. It's probably his most dial, uh, critical dialogue on, on, on rhetoric. Uh, but he ends it, uh, with what he says is, is a logos Right, Is an account, even though people might think it's a myth ethos or a tale or a story, uh, he's going to tell it as if it were true and a true logos, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and his, it's not a rational argument. It is a, uh, esca eschatological myth about, you know, him, him going into, uh, the underworld and being judged and what it's like for everyone. It's, it's a, it's a, you know, kind of parable on the final judgment. Okay. Uh, and so, uh, and how words want help there, and no material goods will help there, but just your naked soul is judged. Yes. And so that's, you know, he ends on that story for a rational point. Right.
Speaker 2 00:04:29 Interesting.
Speaker 0 00:04:29 Yeah. And then the modern, uh, George McDonald, a a fair, uh, fairy story author, uh, also did a lot of historical fiction, um, wrote a piece on the cultivation of the imagination and pointed out that, yeah, the imagination is important for sciences, is important for telling history, otherwise, you just have observations. Right. If you're limited by the facts that you see, uh, you can't invent hypotheses. Right. Uh, he gives a story of, uh, one of his colleagues who was a mathematician who said, Yeah, because of my ability to, to, uh, to imagine, you know, came up with a new theorem for algebra. And, uh, he doesn't name him the footnote, but I I'm almost completely sure that that is, uh, Louis Carroll, uh, he's one of his friends. He, he was aian and a mathematician. Oh, okay. And the same thing that allowed him to write Allison Wonderland were the faculties that allowed him to, uh, imagine how, uh, algebra worked.
Speaker 2 00:05:20 You know? So really then our whole kind of encounter with the world is both through the images and sensible realities of the world, the stories we hear, and then our ability to reflect upon them, ask questions about them. Yes. So, in some ways, it's kind of almost, you know, maybe a little bit of, you know, the wisdom of children in this Sure. Children observe things and they ask why. Yes. And they love stories. Yes. Right. And, uh, I think it reminds me, I think it's, uh, CS Lewis in his dedication to lie in the witch in the wardrobe, he dedicates it to his goddaughter, um, Lucy Barfield. Yeah, right. Lucy Barfield. And he says something along the lines that, um, you know, I wrote this for you when you were younger, but now that it's published, you're too old to read, um, you know, fairy tales, But hopefully when you get old again, then you'll begin reading them. Yes. Uh, and it's kind of recovering that sense of questioning mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and, and somehow trying to find a way that those deeper questions are, are, are kind of part of our nature. And, and we often need to hear stories to tell us about the, but somehow about, about what's the truth about the world that we can't get on our own.
Speaker 0 00:06:24 Yeah. No, I, I, I would completely agree. Um, you know, if we think about, like, you know, someone might bring up something like the allegory the Cave. Right. Of course. It's an allegory, it's a story. Yeah. But it is, you know, being so focused on what's projected in front of us. Right. And if you escape the cave when you come back down, you need an art of what he calls a peria GoGet or turning around mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how do you get somebody distracted from the shadows on the wall to even look in the other direction? Right. And I would say that that is, you know, the sort of the rhetorical art, uh, the art of storytelling, the art of, you know, moving somebody quickly to mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, uh, look one way instead of another.
Speaker 2 00:07:00 Yeah. And may, maybe that's another way of putting it, is that we're always already in a world of images. Yes. Yes. Right. Um, so really the question is do we have good images or bad images or, or you might even maybe say effective images mm-hmm. Or ineffective images mm-hmm. <affirmative> Right. Ones that are actually healthy and helping us, or we also have a lot of, you know, false images.
Speaker 0 00:07:20 Yes. Yeah. Which, you know, again, the, you know, the, the terms, the sort of, you know, Greek root words here that we might be looking at are, you know, icons are idols. Right. You know, and so, uh, you know, to what degree, uh, is what they're representing true, uh, versus, you know, if, if, if they're all not the things themselves, then mm-hmm. <affirmative>, are they representing true things or false things?
Speaker 2 00:07:40 Yes. Yes. I think that is a kind of an interesting way of even we can look at all of creation. Yeah. Right. Creation itself is in a way, some kind of image mm-hmm. Of the creator mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and therefore it can be an icon Yes. Of, of the wonder. We can kind of see the beauty of nature, and we can wonder at the wonder of the creator mm-hmm. <affirmative> that somehow made everything right. Or we can kind of turn creation into write an idol and expect it to satisfy
Speaker 0 00:08:07 Us. Yes. I mean, that, that's sort of one of Tolkin justifications for, for writing creative fantasy and being involved. It is because not only are we created beings, but we're created in the image of a creator. So we're called to be, uh, as creative as possible. And so he, along with McDonald, realized that we can't create X Nilo, uh, but he termed the, he termed it sub creation. Right. The ability to, uh, weave together, you know, things that were extent in ways that are
Speaker 2 00:08:32 Creative. You, Can you say more about sub creation mean that seems like a really important idea.
Speaker 0 00:08:37 Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the key, you know, so in his essay on, on Fair Stories, Tolkin, uh, gives a, a brief clip of a, of a poem called Mytho. Uh, so, you know, myth making, uh, and, you know, he claims that this is, this is our birthright, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, we are, um, you know, created beings that are called to, uh, participate in creation and not just in the things of creation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but in the act of creation itself. Right. And so, uh, the probably creative act, you know, in its highest form for Tolkin, uh, would be the story. Right. Would be the world building would be, um, you know, starting kind of from intellectual scratch and building up from, uh, the raw materials that are around
Speaker 2 00:09:20 Us. Right. Okay. You know, that reminds me a little bit of, is it, uh, Chesterton in his everlasting man? Uh, Right. He tells the story of when he begins to, when you first see kind of human beings, evidence of human beings, uh, they're in caves and they do these weird things, which are totally unlike our image of the cavemen. Yeah. Right. They sit around and paint. Yeah. They're just Right. And, uh, I did, and some of the classes I do, I'll actually show we have, if you just go online, you can find images really all over the globe from somewhere between like 15,000 to 30,000 years ago of paintings on walls of these caves, and it's Right. Human beings paint. Yeah. And I think Chester and says, Right, this art is the signature of man. Um, could you explain that more
Speaker 0 00:10:06 <laugh>? I don't know if I can explain it, but Yeah, I would say, yeah. I mean, it is this idea that we are, uh, you know, from our earliest history that we can detect, we are interested in, uh, storytelling and depicting images, um, in some way recording what's going around us, but, you know, not necessarily in these faithful material ways, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, no one's going, We can look at the images and you know, of, of cave drawings and recognize them, but wow, not necessarily, you know, they're not, they're not one to one, you know, correspondences, uh, between the image and, and the things around us, Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:10:37 Yeah. So if, if we then, the idea you're suggesting here of sub creation, so to, and suggests that when we tell stories, we're kind of imitating the creator and we're creating like a secondary creation, Right? A creation within the first creation. What do you think, in a way can go wrong with
Speaker 0 00:10:56 That? I mean, and, and Tolkin, you know, talks about it, uh, as well, and a lot of things can go wrong. Uh, you know, one of the simple things is it's not easy to do, Right? Uh, some people think it's the easiest kind of writing, because you can just make up anything mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, but it's not gonna be satisfactory if it doesn't have what he calls a, some sort of, you know, inter coherence, right? Yeah. Um, it has to have, uh, a logic that sustains it. Uh, and George McDonald was talking about this as well, and is, you know, the cultivation of the imagination. Uh, you have to have a logic that, uh, works within the ferry land or the ferry story, or the fantasy world that you're building or else, um, it's not going to ring true. Right? Okay. Um, and so there's that simple sort of thing mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:11:33 <affirmative>. Um, but we can, I mean, you can tell bad stories, right? One sense they're ineffective. Uh, the other sense they dream up worlds that we wouldn't wanna live in, uh, or that we shouldn't want to live in mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and for all their power that can be negative. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, George McDonald makes I think a, a really good point, which is the key here isn't to suppress the imagination, because when you do, you can't surgically remove it. You just bubble it up into untrained, perhaps dark imaginations that then imagine these worlds, Uh, not because they want to, but because they've never been fostered.
Speaker 2 00:12:04 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there was a, I think you're probably familiar with that, uh, survey I think of, I think it was in England of, uh, the, the best hundred books of the 20th century. And, uh, uh, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, I think was, was the number one <laugh>, right? Oh, yeah. You can't kind of shocked everyone, but, so, you know, what is it about his work, Um, Right. This great Lord of the Rings trilogy, this great myth that's been turned into, uh, movies and, uh, I guess even right now is continually to be popular right? On, uh, on Amazon, some, some version of it mm-hmm. That, uh, we can maybe talk about another day, <laugh>, not that I, um, but what, what is it about his work that, uh, is so pop so attractive to
Speaker 0 00:12:44 People? Yeah. I mean, I think it is hitting on this sort of, uh, the aridness of the imagination as a faculty. It's cultivated right? In school and learning mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, we, we desire, uh, he had talked about the sort of desire, uh, in unfair stories to, to have converse with, with other people, uh, or to see other times, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so something like the Lord Rings speaks to both those desires, you know, to, to, to go to distant lands, um, to talk to people who are other than human, uh, and to see times other than the ones that we are in mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and that's something that, you know, I think, uh, we had much more access to pre-modernity, uh, you know, whether or not it was intentional or if it was just the types of stories that we were telling and the, the sorts of things that we could imagine, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, you know, really, Yeah. I think that you see Tolkin as sort of more this, this culmination of this tradition, uh,
Speaker 2 00:13:35 Interesting.
Speaker 0 00:13:35 Yeah. Then, then, then the beginning, I think unfortunately mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, as the culmination, we get a lot of imitators of token afterwards. And so creative fantasy does not become that creative. Okay. If you read the sort of, you know, pre fantasy writers before TOL and CS Lewis, um, you get things that are totally alien, totally different, and, uh, you know, and, and things that are, are imitations of, you know, just very stories as well. So you get the sort of soft, fun, trite sort of stuff, but you also get, you know, imaginative worlds that, uh, don't talk about dwarfs, <laugh> don't have elves in them, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> are, are, are something, uh, other than I think tol appreciated that sort of creativity more than, ah, here are the elves here, the gfs here's my other, you know, here's my creative world, which just happens to be a sub sub token world,
Speaker 2 00:14:19 You know? Interesting. And so these kind of great stories, uh, that he tells, it's almost like we go on an adventure. Yeah. You know, and, and I think there's so many, uh, people today that kind of lack that adventure mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, uh, and, and maybe they find it in video games mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, maybe they find it occasionally in, you know, watching Netflix. Um, but it seems more and more that people don't find it, it people struggle to find it in their work. Yes. They often struggle to find it in relationships. Uh, I think many young people sometimes struggle to find it in school. Yes. Right. So how would you, uh, what, I mean, I guess what, what is it about, like, how is reading a story and if I'm gonna put it somewhat provocatively, right? Yeah. Like, how is reading a story gonna help me <laugh>, um, you know, find kind of an adventure in my life? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:15:07 I mean, I think it's interesting in so far as you look back and you look at the tradition, sometimes we can just say, this is a tradition of storytelling. Right? Okay. Um, and this, this is, you know, imitative or built off that, uh, you know, this work and that work. Um, but if we can start seeing what some of the authors are trying to do, uh, they're at least I think, uh, good arguments for the fact that someone like Plato in the Republic, uh, is, you know, learning the apology in some other places, holding up Socrates as a, a new hero, and that the Republic is a sort of odyssey, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then we go to say Augustine's Confession. And, you know, at one time, you know, he seems to be criticizing the old epics, but at the same time, he's writing a new epic, Right.
Speaker 0 00:15:44 A spiritual odyssey. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so, uh, if we, you know, I would, I would pos it to be provocative again, if we, you know, uh, could cultivate the art of story a little bit more mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we wouldn't just lament the loss of some of these great stories, we'd be able to adapt and, uh, you know, appropriate what's good about the tradition of storytelling mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, uh, give it to, you know, our own time. And that that sort of longing for good stories would be, uh, you know, addressed a little more positively.
Speaker 2 00:16:10 Yeah. I, I heard that, I think it was George Lucas, when he was writing, uh, the original, um, Star Wars trilogy, he actually studied a lot of mm-hmm. <affirmative> right. Myth. Um, you remember the, the name, uh, was, uh, who was the person he was studying?
Speaker 0 00:16:25 Uh, so Joseph Campbell, I think.
Speaker 2 00:16:26 Yeah. Joseph Campbell. But he's actually, So he was deliberately trying to recover, uh, a sense of these classical myths, these classical stories, and try to write a story. Yeah. Uh, and it's interesting that, uh, in some ways, you know, that story which had the worst special effects Right. Of any of them. It is,
Speaker 0 00:16:46 Yeah. It's
Speaker 2 00:16:47 Really difficult, is also the one that was the most kind of compelling. Yeah. And the one to which later stories are said, Oh, this isn't as good, even though the CGI is better. Yeah. Yeah. But somehow the story put us on this adventure. Yeah. This, this
Speaker 0 00:17:01 Quest. I'm, I'm laughing because, you know, I'm a big Star Wars fan from, from back, from, uh, you know, from, from childhood and going back, especially after the sort of Disastrous Creek world, Trilogy, <laugh>, um, you know, going back and watching the original, I'm like, you know, maybe it wasn't that good, but I still love it. Right. But yeah, I mean, that was like, looking at his inspirations were something that actually made me think, Man, maybe I could even tell stories. Because you look at the Joseph Campbell, you look at the myths, but then you see also he's inspired by the CS Lewis Space Trilogy Paraia out the Silent Planet, and you see, and that had strength, and you see, you're like, Oh, okay. And also like, uh, The Searchers, you know, westerns, uh, you know, the Hidden Fortress Samurai movie, and you start looking at these sources, and then you read someone like, on Fair Stories, Jio Tolkin on fairy stories, and, uh, he talks about you can't create a new leaf, but you can, can look back at the tree of story or dip into the soup of story and bring something else new.
Speaker 0 00:17:53 Yeah. So knowing these stories is what helps to, or at least in part, what helps to, you know, cultivate new stories mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> appreciating them for, for substance, you know, not just as diversion.
Speaker 2 00:18:03 Yeah. I think that's beautiful. And in some ways, if what you said about sub creation is true, then the best of stories are not kind of, I mean, they're not just like made up, so to speak. They're imitations of the reality. Yes. Yeah. And so it's almost like in the story we see something about reality that we couldn't see Yeah. Until it's there. So the story ends up becoming kind of somewhat true, cuz we live in the same creation, Right. That Homer did. Yeah. Yeah. So some of the stories when we hear, like, I don't, you know, when you hear about the wrath of Achilles mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the I, and you kind of see how he can't get his anger under control, and it ends up hurting him. Uh, so many people in the story, his best friend is killed because his anger and resentment. And then, you know, we look at our own lives and we begin to say, Oh, wait a second, how has my, how have my resentments mm-hmm. <affirmative> and my angers hurt myself. Right. And hurt other people.
Speaker 0 00:19:00 Yeah. And even more sort of essentially, Right. His problem he admits is knowing what he should do and not doing it right. Yeah. And so how many times, you know, so even if we haven't had wrath or revenge on our mind, how many times have we known the right thing to do and then not acted on that? Like, seen it in the face and say, But I'm just not motivated to, to do
Speaker 2 00:19:20 The thing. Yeah. 1, 1, 1 quick thing before we take a break. I noticed in, I've just been listening to the Lord of the Rings again, and it's interesting how many times the characters struggle to make a decision mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it was kind of, I think there's a way in which sometimes maybe in modernity we think there is a right decision, and if we get enough information, we can make it. Yes. And I think this, of course, is just largely not true. Yeah. In the world, there is always more information. Yeah. There's more information than we could ever take in at once. And so to a certain extent, every decision carries a risk. Yes. Right. We can't control the outcomes. Not every outcome is foreseeable. We have to somewhat hazard Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:19:59 A guess. Yeah. And that leads to like the, the other, the other part, Right. The sort of rhetorical part. Uh, we've lost the arts of probable reasoning. Right? Wow. We, we think that it's all deductive, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, but, you know, in certain and necessary, but really, most of our practical decisions are what's likely to happen mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Out of all the possible outcomes, what's the best way to try to bring about one? That's good.
Speaker 2 00:20:20 Yeah. And in some ways, that gives us a certain amount of freedom, recognizing that we will make mistakes. Like one of the beauty in the, in the Lord of the Ring story is many of the characters, they don't know quite what to do, and sometimes they make wrong decisions, and yet they're still heroes. Yes. They're still heroes, not because they always make the right decisions, but because they don't give up. Yeah. They,
Speaker 0 00:20:36 They hazard, like you said, they hazard the right, the, the right decision, and sometimes it's not. And, you know,
Speaker 2 00:20:41 They have to deal with, And when we're working with young people, I think so often sometimes people feel the stress that they have to make the right decision about which courses, like what major to do, what career to go in, because the future of their life and perhaps the future of the world, the future of the church, the future of everything is kind of dependent upon them getting it right. And kind of one of the beauties is, is we never get it right. Yeah. And that, that's okay. It's the willingness to stick to it. Yeah. It's the willingness not to give up, to continue to try to seek the good in, in the midst of our lives. Right. To continue in the midst of suffering mistakes. Yeah. To still say fundamentally. Right. It is good that we are here. Right. You know, you know, God, this is a good creation you've given us despite the mess we've made of
Speaker 0 00:21:26 It. Yep. Yep. No, I, I completely agree. And it's just so, it's, it's humorous when a student has these different options. They're like, What should I do? And I ask them, which they wanna do, and they're like, I'm not sure. I'm like, Well, would you be equally happy with either? And they're like, Yeah, sure. Then I'm like, Well, flip coin, I mean, just <laugh>, just make it, If, if one compels you, take that one. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But if not, then, you know. Yeah. Just like, close your eyes point and there you go. You made a decision, so.
Speaker 2 00:21:48 Well, that's great. Let's take a quick break. All
Speaker 0 00:21:50 Right. Thank you.
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Speaker 2 00:22:24 Dr. Hasso. Um, please tell, uh, tell me a little bit about how you got interested in, uh, Right, stu studying fantasy literature and rhetoric.
Speaker 0 00:22:33 Yeah. Well, it was always a, a personal sort of interest of mine. Something I sort of did, you know, in my spare time. Okay. Um, and, uh, the rhetoric was, you know, something that I, I came to after I, you know, I started out as a theater major, and I was like, I don't wanna study that. Wow. Um, and I was also in debate and forensics. I was like, I could do this and do anything. And the first work I read was the Gorgio, and I was like, All right. Um, but I get the joke because this is also very effectively written. Uh, so I double majored in philosophy at the time, <laugh> and, uh, uh, and, and stayed with the rhetoric. Um, as I saw connections and learned more about the inklings, uh, and saw their work on language, uh, you know, Owen Barfield, uh, and some of the critical stuff that Tolkin and and Lewis were doing.
Speaker 0 00:23:11 I realized that there was a connection there. And, uh, as I worked backwards, uh, from their influences to, you know, uh, George McDonald and Andrew Lang and, uh, you know, some of, uh, the other sort of Preto writers, William Morris, and read some of their critical works, I was like, Oh, there's a whole project here. Um, and then when I was at Penn State mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was in English department doing interdisciplinary rhetoric, and I said, I could put together a, a syllabus on, uh, you know, fantasy, modern fantasy, it's birth, and it's sort of, uh, rhetorical impact, uh, you know, how it was trying to make these arguments and do these things in society. Um, and they let me do that. It was a popular class. I was able to teach it twice, and before I left, I was scheduled to teach it as a grad course. Um, Okay. And then, Wow. Yeah. And then, then I came here and, uh, you know, found a similar audience to, to, you know, who's interested in these, in these works. And, uh, from teaching, I've turned into, uh, scholarship. And so it's probably the next phase of things that I'm gonna be doing, uh, academic work on.
Speaker 2 00:24:06 It seems that many people today have a mistrust of rhetoric. You know, that's just rhetoric or, you know, don't let the rhetoric take you away from the facts or something. Um, what would, I mean, is, is is rhetoric bad?
Speaker 0 00:24:21 Yeah. I mean, so the, the fantasy, um, analogy I use in my rhetoric class is, uh, you know, use the Harry Potter analogy, if it's both the dark arts and defense against the dark arts. Right. Um, really it's unique in, so in such, or Star Wars, you know, there's the dark side in life out of the force <laugh>. Um, it's unique in such that it's power is not gonna be checked except for by, uh, a good rhetoric. Uh, I think, uh, Gorges in his incoming of Helen makes a similar argument, which is, uh, he blames rhetoric for, uh, or persuasion, uh, for, uh, stealing Helen away. Uh, but he's also a, so, and I ask my students, why would he do that? And they're like, Oh. Because if there's that out there, uh, you have to be able to, to, uh, meet it. Right. Uh, as, as a sort of, uh, self-defense, Yes. But also, um, there's lots of eloquent sort of myths from Plato and Cicero, uh, and is Socrates about, uh, just the fact that we do it. We can't live without persuasion. We can't live without talking with people and trying to get them to commune with each other, uh, to build societies and build laws. So it is the dark arts defense against the dark arts, but used properly. It's also, uh, this constructive tool that's at the, uh, foundation of society.
Speaker 2 00:25:35 So that maybe what I hear you saying is that it's kind of like, in so far as we use words, we're necessarily being rhetorical. Yeah. And we're always trying to communicate something like what we want and how we see the world. Uh, and other people, of course, are communicating to us Yes. With words. Yes. And which means they're using rhetoric as well. So if we don't, you know, if we don't study rhetoric or try to somehow use rhetoric effectively, we're just using rhetoric poorly Yes. Or being trapped by others.
Speaker 0 00:26:09 Yeah. It's like the imagination, if you try to suppress it, it's just going to be used anyway and used poorly. And if somebody else can master it, then used potentially against you, unless they're a good person. I think Cicero kind of, uh, coined it the best. Uh, I'm gonna paraphrase here. Uh, he was telling, you know, in the beginning of his on invention or day vent, he says, I've often thought about if it's a good or a bad. Um, and he boiled it down to, uh, the pair of wisdom and eloquence. Right. Uh, wisdom without eloquence is what you call, you know, weak, ineffective, Right. Uh, mm-hmm. <affirmative> can, can benefit an individual, but hardly ever of his benefit of society. But eloquence without wisdom can be potentially harmful. Destructive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So what you want is that union of the ability to sort of think and calculate and strategize, uh, but then also, uh, be able to communicate with others and join with others in, uh, productive endeavors.
Speaker 2 00:27:02 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and in our society today, it seems like we have Right. Tons of communications media. We have tons of tv, tons of marketing. We kind of are never away from marketing. Uh, there's lots of jobs in marketing. Um, you know, can, can marketing be good? Uh,
Speaker 0 00:27:19 I believe so. I mean, that's not my area of expertise, but in teaching media, society and the church, um, a lot of what the church has to say about media, you know, kind of continues this conversation about rhetoric. And, you know, insofar as we want healthy economies and we want people to have access to good products, then marketing is a good Right. Um, and so far as it tells the truth, <laugh>, uh, about, and it can be entertaining, uh, you know, and it can be, you know, it can also serve the person, the, the, the, the businesses. Uh, but in so far as it brings to the four products and experiences and other sort of consumer goods that people are wanting that are good for them, or at least not bad, then yeah. It can be a good, uh, it can, you know, it's good to have a healthy economy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, it's, it's not good when your society is, is impoverished. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:28:05 On, on a slightly different, uh, note, uh, CS Lewis, uh, in Hi, he has an essay or a sermon that was originally given the Weight of Glory. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but he reminded, reminds me at one time where he says, Do you think I'm trying to weave a spell <laugh>? And he says, Remember your fairy tales? He says that like spells are not only, uh, used for, um, you know, casting enchantments, but also breaking them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think there he says that you and I have been under, uh, the enchantment of worldliness for the last couple centuries, Right. In which all of our philosophy and education is, is aimed with the idea that the good of life is to be found in this world mm-hmm. <affirmative> on this earth mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So how is it maybe that kind, that particularly, not only rhetoric in general, but some kind of fantasy rhetoric helps us to recognize that maybe, you know, like the happy life is not just, um, you know, is not just an earthly life.
Speaker 0 00:29:01 Yeah. I mean, so, you know, it, it's interesting you bring it up cuz that resonates with something that Gorg has said in Coon Helen. He called, uh, logos. Right. Uh, a pharmacon, you know, that could both kill, Right. A drug that can kill, but also could heal. And he called it magic. And, uh, Atos actually accused Socrates of what he called sago. Right. Uh, soul leading, which for there means conjuring, you know, the sort of enchantment. Okay. But Plato uses that word as his definition of, of, of rhetoric. Socrates definition in the fades, which is leading souls by, by words, by logos, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so if we kind of fast forward to CS Lewis, uh, you know, he talks about, but he says other worlds, right? He found out what they're for by reading a voyage to our tourists. Right. And he says that there are four spiritual adventures there, there are four taking us into the realm of the spirit, setting up circumstances that we can't, you know, uh, spiritual experiments you might say, you know, thought experiments that we can't, we can't play out here, but we can see played out in these fantasy literatures.
Speaker 0 00:30:02 Uh, I think there, he's, he's likely, uh, echoing George McDonald, who in Infante talks about <laugh>, his, his main characters in fairyland. And he, he slips into this sort of like, uh, meditation and says, Excuse me, reader, for having slipped into the deeper fairy land of the soul. Right. And
Speaker 2 00:30:21 So, wow,
Speaker 0 00:30:22 We can, yeah, we can play out, uh, you know, give voice and percentages to, you know, personify ideas and concepts that we can only theorize. That's why I think, uh, fantasy science fiction, you know, they're called speculative fiction because we can theorize about things that we can't see play out in the real world. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:30:38 <affirmative>, do you have, it seems like some of that aspect of like, seeing that dimension of the soul, the hungers and maybe thirsts of the soul for something beyond this world for, for maybe the source of this world for God mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that it also seems that there's some aspect of, if we think abouts great Shakespeare plays mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, how often great Shakespeare plays have a, have a wedding at the end mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that maybe even something like the Good of Marriage mm-hmm. <affirmative> is somehow almost, I mean, is is is almost like a good of the soul that you can't just see from the outside. Yes. And it's partly why so many of these great tales and a lot of the, um, you know, the ro romance stories in the Middle Ages, uh, and later were often some kind of combination of both a quest Yes. Um, you know, a quest, a battle, but also some kind of beauty. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:31:37 No, uh, the four qualities that Tolkin talks about in fantasy. So, or he talked about unfair stories, Fantasy is one of them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Recovery is, is another one. And that's where he talks about, uh, chesterton and fantasy in kind of a smaller scale and, uh, escape. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is one that he's like, Hey, you know, <laugh>, I think we're mixing up when we condemn fantasy for escapism, the, the flight of the, uh, deserter with the escape of the prisoner. Right. Yeah. And the last one is, is consolation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he talks about the U catastrophe, um, this amazing turn at the end of fairy stories that often happens mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that makes us feel this sort of divine providence. Right. This the goodness of the world around us. Um, and I think that last one might be what you're kind of talking about there, you know, with the, with the wedding or, you know, we, we have the battles, we have the quest, but it ends on almost a amazing note, a miraculous note of of goodness or, or consolation.
Speaker 2 00:32:27 Yeah. And, and that in part we don't discover this about ourselves unless in a way someone tells us or tells us these stories and we begin to say, Oh, wait a second. I I could be like that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I, I could be like that. Um, you know, that great hero. Yeah. Um, perhaps somehow, you know, and I think when we hear that, at least, you know, I think it's always a fun question to ask people after they see a movie with, you know, which, with, which character did you identify the most mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I think we naturally kind of want to imitate, uh, some per some character mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we really wanna imitate maybe, you know, like the ideals mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that we see in that character.
Speaker 0 00:33:05 Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, you asked, you know, before, like, how can it go wrong? And it is, you know, there is this sort of escapism where you're just like, I just wanna see stuff that's not, you know, around me, which can be fine for a diversion mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but when you don't come back and you just get lost, that could be a problem. But, uh, looking at the tradition, that's why it's fun to see someone like Socrates and the apology equate himself with like, Achilles, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then you start seeing this, you know, these, these, like, I could be like, Socrates, Achilles may be hard <laugh>, but now when I start thinking about the courage that takes Socrates to mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, face death, uh, and then compare that to Achilles in battle, I'm like, Oh yeah. These are things that, uh, so the, the breadth of this sort of literature I think is really important to, you know, uh, be exposed to because, uh, there's, there's things that are definitely closer to home. Uh, but the, the epic literature is great, and the, uh, sort of intermediary sort of stories can help us make connections with the, you know, I wanna be Aragorn, Um, but I'm not, you know, <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:34:00 I think it's interesting too, the way you mention, uh, that sense of, uh, where it can kind of help us to almost this aspirational mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and it, Sea Lewis writes an essay on three ways of writing for children. Yeah. You know, in there, I only remember too at the moment, but the, the main two are one, he says there's a way of telling stories for children where you basically, and, and I think in some ways he's thinking of like what we would call young adult readers here. Um, but one way is basically where you kind of gratify their desire for adulation. Yeah. Um, their desire to be praised and worshiped. So you tell the stories about the, you know, the, the person who gets rejected off the basketball team and then comes back and becomes the captain mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Right. You know, or the person who does, you know, the person who, um, becomes, you know, isn't popular at school mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:34:47 <affirmative>, but then eventually by the end is, you know, the most popular, you know, uh, the most popular girl or the most popular guy, uh, in high school. And, and he, he says basically this is the same thing that an adult literature is where you, you solve the crime, you get the money, you get the girl you're on the beach mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he says, All of these are kind of somewhat gratifying our imagination, and they're gratifying our appetites and gratifying our ego. But he contrasts this with what he thinks is a true fairy story, cuz the ferry story says, has a moral dimension, which it calls for a kind of, not, not just an external conversion mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but an internal conversion. And he even goes so far as to say that reading them is like an a thesis. It's like an aesthetical work that when you read these stories, um, it almost challenges you to question your desires. Yeah. Yeah. You know, are your desires merely to gratify your ego or are they to maybe deflate your ego and to discover something greater?
Speaker 0 00:35:47 Yeah. And that's, that's one thing that I think ties it back to that tradition in rhetoric, the, to instruct to delight and to move mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, oftentimes, uh, the, the mythic tradition in the folk hills tradition can be boiled down to instruction. Right. Okay. And sometimes, uh, you know, like at the beginning of the Wizard of Oz, Frank Obama is like, We, we don't need moral instruction anymore. This is just meant to delight. Right. Uh, but the, the higher kind of movement, uh, you know, the, what George McDonald and, and I believe, you know, Chesterton Lewis Tolkin are after, uh, is yeah, sure, it'd be great to instruct, it'd be great to delight, but it's really that movement, Right. Uh, the inward reflection, but then also the sort of, uh, you know, movement towards ascension. Right. Uh,
Speaker 2 00:36:25 Elevation. Yeah. And, and maybe in a way, um, I mean, I don't know what what, what do you think? Why is it that we're maybe one so frightened? So like we just don't wanna be instructed <laugh> or then, but, but, but somehow, like, not wanting to be instructed, we haven't become wise Yeah. <laugh>, you know, I mean, like, why do, do you have any sense for why? Well, yes. So maybe moderns especially just dislike instruction
Speaker 0 00:36:49 One big, Oh, I mean, we can go back to the republic, right? Which is like, you get to the democracy people, you know, kind of chastised teachers and students are running the show. Um, you know, and cowardice becomes prudence and wisdom becomes, you know, something that's belabored or, you know, waste of time. Yeah. Um, and
Speaker 2 00:37:03 Right. So, and I guess it's like that, it's like ecclesias is, there's nothing new under the sun. There's no problem today that Socrates and Aristotle and Plato didn't somewhat encounter. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:37:12 But one thing that I, I thought was interesting. Yeah. Um, was that when you mentioned, you know, that sort of writing where it's like the wish fulfillment, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think there's been a turn in some of the, in some of the sort of, you know, uh, ya sort of stories, which is not, you know, the, the unpopular person becomes the popular person, but yeah. Just stay unpopular. Like there's, you know, like you're, uh, I, one of my, my dissertation director had, and I'm not gonna do the accent, he was Greek, and he had a big reaction, <laugh>, uh, but he, he was started saying disparaging things about Mr. Rogers, We live in Pittsburgh. Uh, you know, and he, Mr. Rogers was close. And I was like, How do you not like Mr. Rogers <laugh>? And, and his point was, Look, I don't like you the way you are.
Speaker 0 00:37:49 I like you better than you are. And I was like, Ah, okay. And so I think there is almost a movement of No, you're fine just the way you are. There's no need to put effort into betterment. Into perfection. Oh my gosh. You know, <laugh>, why would you strive for that? That's just, you know, unattainable and not healthy, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is this gonna cause you stress and anxiety? Um, and so I think that the, uh, w desire not to be instructed is that desire to, if I could kind of diagnose the, the problem of the age, it's, uh, desire not to feel anxious, not to feel stress, to avoid anything that might cause a friction internally. Yeah. And so,
Speaker 2 00:38:25 But, but in many ways it's some, I mean, do do you think it, is it working?
Speaker 0 00:38:30 Oh, no. <laugh> <laugh>. No. I think that's the ailment of the age, right? Yeah. Uh, it might, might be a bit of, it might be the same or a bit of an extension of what, uh, Walker Percy might have called the modern Malays, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, just the, you know, let's, let's, It's fine. Let's, Yeah. Everything's
Speaker 2 00:38:43 Fine. But somehow when we say that the one thing that we believe is that it's not fine Yes. Um, that there's something strange that, that somehow, like when we are dealing, when we feel anxious, um, somehow the more we can feel that and yet act anyway. Yeah. Uh, somehow like, uh, you know, the anxiety, it's not that it goes away or the fear goes away, uh, but that we learn how not to react Yeah. But to respond. Yes. Uh, and this seems like Aristotle, and I was actually even, you know, CS Lewis, I think in letter 29 of the screw tape letters, talks all about courage and cowardice. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And sometimes he, he even says something powerful there where he says it's, he says, maybe, I can't remember if he says thousands or, but thousands of men, as he puts it, discovered their cowardice for the first time in the first World War mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:39:39 <affirmative> their own personal cowardice, and in doing so, discovered the moral world for the first time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so sometimes it's this recognition, um, that I almost feel like he wants to whisper and say, like, You too, <laugh>, like, like you two are a coward mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And for me to be able to say yes mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I too am a coward. I struggle with fear. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> fear sometimes has gotten the best of me. I struggle with anger. Anger sometimes has gotten the best of me and in different ways. I think these stories tell us a little bit about that. Often our fears and angers mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. Our flight or flight Yeah. Are, are, you know, are are, I'm not doing that well with them. Yeah. And then when we begin to articulate, I'm not doing well, rather than just saying I'm, it's okay.
Speaker 2 00:40:29 Yes. It's, it's good that I'm exist. I'm not a, you know what I mean? It's not like I'm, it wouldn't, the world wouldn't be better off without me. Yeah. But on the other hand, when I can say that I'm struggling, it's almost like in, uh, in, in, in one of the gospels where Jesus says something like, basically you have blind guides leading the blind. And part of the things we're supposed to recognize is that I'm blind. I'm, Yeah. Yeah. And, and I don't know how somehow it's very recognition of our failures that allows us to move forward. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:40:56 It's, I mean, you
Speaker 2 00:40:57 Know, so, so it's not, I don't know how to play it. Like I, I, I just, anyway, for me, I find both, you know, in my own life and in my teaching, uh, somehow creating that space.
Speaker 0 00:41:05 Yeah. No, I try to tell my students, when we read, when we read Platon Dialogues, I was like, you know, everyone, everyone wants to be Socrates, but I'm like, You're not, you're the other guy. Right. <laugh>, you know, that's, that's the problem. Uh, and you gotta listen to other people. Yeah. I think, you know, there's a great example where you're talking about, uh, just recently, uh, in the fourth volume of, you know, uh, se season of, of Stranger Things, They, they had a, a, a character that was new, uh, who was like, you know, really big, uh, into like Dungeons and Dragons was like doing all these battles. Uh, but it turned out that he was a coward. Right. And he went faced with that. He's like, Look, I'm not the guy, Right. Uh, I'm not gonna do the brave stuff. But eventually a part of the arc is that he does face that. And so, you know, part of the fantasy is helping us see and experience things that maybe wouldn't another experience mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but they're always that danger of, you know, having it just be false. Right. And then realizing, hopefully the nice thing about, let's say, see this fantasy was that it showed the person being sort of diverted into a fantasy world mm-hmm. <affirmative> faced with needing to be courageous and not, but finding that as a weakness in himself. Yeah. And then being really
Speaker 2 00:42:09 Powerful. Now
Speaker 0 00:42:10 I'm gonna be, now I'm gonna be courageous. I'm like, Okay. So that's what stories can do.
Speaker 2 00:42:13 Yeah. And, and maybe that partly what we begin to recognize is the real quest that each of us are, is, is each of us is on, is the quest of our own lives. Yeah. Right. Really, like, who am I gonna choose to become? Yeah. Right. And it's not just who was I and how do I live in accord with that, but how do I become the person I could become if I began to try to <laugh> Right. Live my life a bit more intentionally. Yeah. Um, and begin to see maybe myself as a story, You know, when we have in John one, right. John, you know, in the beginning was the word and the word was God. Uh, we often think of the word as just kind of maybe philosophical truth, but the word is also story. Yeah. So in the beginning was the story. Yeah. And, you know, so, and maybe in a way we tell ourselves false stories about ourselves Yeah. And to learn that true story.
Speaker 0 00:43:06 Yeah. I think that's great. Cuz I mean, what you have there is, is, you know, kind of circles back to everything we've been talking about. Cuz you have the word logos, Right. That in the Greek is anything from word to argument to to account, uh, to, you know, uh, the, the reason of the, the cosmos, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, in the Latin, it gets bifurcated into RA at oratio to wisdom and eloquence. Right. Okay. Yeah. Uh, and so being able to see the reason as a story, right? I think of Saints who said that God had three great speeches, um, creation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the Bible and the incarnation, right? Yeah. Uh, and so obviously those, those are, those are rational, those are also stories, but they're also what Iranians called the Great Speeches of God. And we can approach creation like a book or like a story mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:43:45 <affirmative>. And, and so seeing all those things sort of looped together and then seeing ourselves as, you know, a story in progress. It's, it's trite, but I think it's also true, uh, that yeah, we can write our, you know, write our stories or at least participate in our own, uh, our own narratives, which, you know, goes to show that, uh, some of the trite things of today, Uh, some of the things like, you know, it's not a bad thing to not want to be anxious. And I think both progressives want to move away from the bad, and the conservatives wanna go back to a good, but we can agree that something's not working. Yeah. And, you know, and anxiety's not a good in and of itself, but it can lead to good, so mm-hmm. <affirmative> being always able to see Yeah. We, there's, there's some agreement even in our disagreement, I think is the beginning to, uh, you know, both good argument and good storytelling.
Speaker 2 00:44:28 Yeah. I think I, I saw recently something from, from Jordan Peterson where he said, Don't compare yourself to others. Compare yourself to the person you were yesterday mm-hmm. <affirmative> and try to become a better version of that tomorrow. And I think when we do that, we begin to discover that we're on that we're kind of little stories. Yeah. And I think in doing so, we can find kind of a little sense of, uh, peace and direction. Um, as, as, as we close, I wanted to ask you three questions. Yep. So what's a book you've been reading lately?
Speaker 0 00:44:54 Um, I've been actually reading some of the works of Charles Williams. Um, and so I've gotten through one of the inklings, the oddest inkling, uh, gotten through, uh, his diss descent into hell and the war in heaven. But the one that I'm in the middle of right now, which is a great, I'm having so much fun with it, is Berto Echoes the name of The Rose, which is a book I've heard that everybody owns, but nobody reads, or at least that was true in the eighties, you know, so, Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:45:20 Yeah. Well, that's great. Uh, second question. Uh, what's a daily practice that you do to, you know, kind of find meaning and purpose in your own story?
Speaker 0 00:45:30 <laugh>? Yeah. I would say, uh, just recently again, uh, I try to both exercise, like ride, you know, go, go ride on a bike, but at the same time, uh, I get into audio books a lot. So I start, uh, with a, a chap of St. Michael and my, uh, my daughter actually made me one for my wrist, uh, on audio and try to meditate on that. And then I listen to, uh, listen to audiobooks while I, while I go, uh, on a bike ride for a few miles.
Speaker 2 00:45:54 So. That's great. And, and last question is, is wi mean, What's one big kind of falsehood that you believed about God, uh, that, that kind of like hurt you and, and when you discovered the truth, how did it help?
Speaker 0 00:46:08 Oh, that's a tough one. Let's see. A falsehood that I believed about God that hurt me, I guess, you know, it is one of those things that if I think about it right there, is the sense, I wouldn't say it's a falsehood, but I understood it falsely. Sure. Which was that everything's gonna be all right. Yeah. And, uh, when you come up in times and things aren't all right mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it makes you wonder, you know, what, what your relationship is. Right. You know? And, uh, and so rethinking what it means that everything's gonna be all right in the sort of, you know, scheme of things, uh, that, that's helped me, uh, to sort of deal with the things that weren't all right. Yeah. Uh, and to understand my relationship with God. So.
Speaker 2 00:46:49 Wow. Well, uh, Dr. John Hasso, thanks so much for being with us today and really appreciated your, uh, just really kind of opening up the tradition of imagination and rhetoric and Tolkien and Lewis and Chesterton with us. So thank you so much for being on our
Speaker 0 00:47:05 Show. Oh, thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 3 00:47:07 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Enunciation circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
