Speaker 0 00:00:00 The main conduit between sort of US Vatican relations, if I could put it that way, is John Carroll. A Jesuit is 1780s and nineties. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, especially the nineties, is when he becomes Bishop. He's really concerned with building up the US Catholic Church. He insists that the first bishop of the United States needs to be elected by his fellow clergymen. And this is a nod to the kind of democratic spirit that's forming in the American Republic.
Speaker 2 00:00:35 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Dolphine, and today I am pleased to be joined with colleague and friend Dr. Michael Braden Bach. Uh, welcome to the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:48 Thank you very much, Michael.
Speaker 2 00:00:50 Excellent. Glad to have you here. And we're excited today to be talking about a theme, uh, that you've written a whole book on, uh, book with Harvard University Press called Our Dear Bought Liberty, Catholics and Religious Toleration in Early America. Uh, so we'd love to just talk about this whole question of, right, what is the unique situation of Catholics in America, and especially in the colonial period and, uh, right. The founding of both the colonies and then the founding of the United States as we understand them. Uh, I think, right. So many of us today often really don't know our own histories. Uh, and so I just love you to kind of like, unpack and unfold a lot of these critical moments, uh, that have really shaped the way the church in the United States, the Catholic Church in the United States, really grew and to kind of recognize in some ways, partly, uh, the great debt we owe, uh, some of our fore bears. Right. And the great sacrifices, you know, they made. So, anyway, so it's a great time to get to talk a little bit and little different topic for our, uh, podcast today. A little bit more church history, uh, than theology proper, but in many ways, recognizing right. The history of the church is, uh, an important moment of understanding how we, you know, are to live our faith today. And I think it's also, by the way, great example to see what sacrifices previous generations have made, uh, and perhaps not be so overwhelmed by our own.
Speaker 0 00:02:25 Absolutely. As I look forward to the conversation.
Speaker 2 00:02:27 Yes. So, you know, just to begin, I think that maybe some of our listeners, we did a podcast recently. Uh, people are welcome to listen to it on St. Thomas Moore. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you, you can find that at the Catholic Theology Show. Uh, and when we think about Thomas Moore, the Martyr, we think, uh, and, and the faithful Catholic, uh, I think a lot of people have some sense that in England, uh, with Henry vii, there was persecution of Catholics. And I think people are aware that that persecution continued, uh, in various parts throughout the 15 hundreds, throughout the 16 hundreds, uh, that it was difficult and often dangerous to be a Catholic in England in those centuries. Uh, there were, people are familiar with, you know, uh, some of the great, uh, you know, the Jesuit Saints or that that would, that would come in, uh, that would often be, you know, trained in France and, you know, Dewey Reems, uh, all these different elements.
Speaker 2 00:03:27 And, uh, and at least kind of are familiar that there was a kind of persecution going on in England. Uh, but I think a lot of people don't see that. And then they just kind of say, and then America was founded on religious toleration and freedom. There was religious persecution in England, there was religious persecution in Europe, and then the United States had religious tolerance and freedom. So, could you begin a little bit of talking a little bit about how the colonies in the United States started, uh, and how they were connected to some of these anti-Catholic oaths, uh, that you discuss in your book?
Speaker 0 00:04:04 Absolutely. Well, thanks again for those, those questions. I think the story of American colonial development is a story of people trying to come to a new world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> facing a lot of adversity. I mean, just getting over the ocean. Yes,
Speaker 2 00:04:19 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:04:20 Is, is a trial in itself. And, um, given that the stakes are so high, we would expect that the, the, the reward might be even greater. And for many of these first settlers from England, uh, they were fleeing religious persecution. It's not the religious persecution that we often hear of the Middle Ages. It's the religious persecution of laws that prohibit you from holding public office mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, for attending church publicly, um, from, uh, expressing your beliefs in, in a, um, in a pamphlet or something like that, or proselytizing, as they would say. And sometimes that might result in Bernie at the stake. Um, although that's fairly rare. Um, what they want is to create a new Christian republic, right. Where they can live out their theology and morality as they see fit. And they think that their new world is the place to do that away from the stricter of, of church establishment and conformity.
Speaker 0 00:05:17 So, you know, we're often familiar with the pur puritans and the pilgrims. Right. And fleeing from religious persecution. They establish a small settlement. It grows into prosperous colony like Massachusetts, and eventually, you know, their sons and grandsons and so on helped to found, you know, colonial laws and even, you know, Amer their American founding, um, up into and including the First Amendment right. With religious toleration and, and liberty, that's often told as a Protestant story. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And what I'd like to tell is the Catholic story, because they too are Philippine religious persecution. They're trying to mark a better life for themselves and their family, and they want to, um, create a, a colony that is tolerant of other religious beliefs. And so oftentimes religious toleration is toleration for me and not you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what's unique about Maryland, where, where most of the Catholics reside, um, in the 17th century, is that the founders of Maryland want to make it a Christian toleration, not just a, you know, Protestant or even more particular, you know, Puritan toleration. It is a broad brush toleration, which I think is fairly exceptional in early America. So that's the story of, of these
Speaker 2 00:06:29 Catholics. Okay. Interesting. So, especially as it relates to the founding of the Colony of Maryland. Um, before we get to, uh, that chapter, could you say a little bit about, I believe it's the, uh, the 1606 English oath of Allegiance?
Speaker 0 00:06:45 Yes. That's, that's sort of a litmus test for Catholic loyalty in England. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there was a Catholic conspirator who wanted to blow up the parliament mm-hmm. <affirmative> in 1605, the so-called gun powder plot. And his name is Guy Fox, and he's memorialized, um, you know, decades after, uh, on November 5th when they burned the Pope and effigy and so on, in this anti-Catholic kind of, um, if I couple call liturgy in the public streets to show their anti-Catholic, um, credentials and to show how perfidious and, and sort of, um, evil Catholics can be in England, you know? And so Guy Fox becomes this kind of, um, totem for people to sort of say, this is everything that's wrong with Catholicism. It's totally beat to the Pope. It's un-English. They wanna, they want to blow up our institutions in our, in our, in our, you know, monarchy in parliament.
Speaker 0 00:07:42 And so, a year after that gun potter plot, it was failed by the way they found out before, um, he did his, um, uh, evil deed, king James issued an oath of allegiance, which effectively meant that who, whoever, um, was forced to, to swear this, you had to swear that, um, you obey the king. You believe that he's the rightful king and his heirs in his successors. But critically, um, the clauses on people power created the most controversy. You had to swear that you didn't believe the Pope had the power to depose the king, that, uh, if the pope or a bishop, uh, excommunicated the king, then, uh, the subjects could depose or murder the king, and so on and so forth. So it was trying to, James himself understood this oath as trying to separate good and bad Catholics. In other words, he, he held out the possibility that there could be good Catholics out there, but they would've to swear this oath.
Speaker 0 00:08:37 The problem is, the Pope at the time said, if you swear the oath as a Catholic, you'd be ipso facto excommunicated. Wow. So you have two really bad options if you're an English Catholic mm-hmm. <affirmative> and 1606 onward, which is either potential treason or potential excommunication. That's the context in which mm-hmm. <affirmative> Maryland existed. Right. So these Catholics are trying to walk a very, very fine line between trying to show their allegiance to the king and to their country, and remaining faithful Catholics. Yeah. So how are they going to do that? Because every settler who goes to Maryland apparently has to swear this oath.
Speaker 2 00:09:14 Yes. And, and just for, maybe for our listeners, uh, and something I looked up to make sure I was ready with my historical dates and things. So 1606 is the oath of allegiance to the king. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> 1607. So one year later is when Jamestown Yes. Right. Is basically founded, uh, I don't know if that's the actual charter of the colony, but it's around that time period. And I think Plymouth, Massachusetts is around 1620. So we have the, at least initial founding of the colonies in Virginia and Massachusetts around this time period. So it's kind of a given that the oath of allegiance that was necessary, uh, to function in a way as a citizen in England mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:09:58 <affirmative>
Speaker 2 00:09:58 Would spread to the colonies in Virginia and, uh, and Massachusetts. So these colonies had the same oath of allegiance. Uh, and you know, it's interesting as well, I was, you know, doing a little bit of, uh, work for, uh, a class I'm teaching. I was looking up John Locke and other things, and John Locke writes a famous letter on religious toleration. This is later in the 16 hundreds. But it's interesting in that letter, he thinks we should not tolerate
Speaker 0 00:10:24 Catholics. That's right.
Speaker 2 00:10:26 Uh, so this element, if there is any religious toleration going on, it's not to include Catholics
Speaker 0 00:10:31 And it, and will continue not to include Catholics. I mean, even the English, um, uh, bill of Rights, uh, that we get in after the so-called glorious revolution, the Revolution 1688. One of the elements is religious toleration, but it's not for Catholics. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, in fact, the whole revolution is about, you know, aina Catholic monarch. So Protestant monarchs can come in mm-hmm. <affirmative> and rule England, and so it's anti-Catholic through and through. But yeah, that still remains a really interesting and dramatic sort of narrative, which is how Catholics could even create their own colony then. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> given that anti Catholicism, given that you're, you're presumed dangerous until proven loyal.
Speaker 2 00:11:09 Yeah. So, uh, in, in, in your book, you tell, uh, some wonderful stories, uh, about some really, I think, overlooked people in the story. And so could you tell me, tell us a little bit about, say George Calvert? Sure, sure. Uh, I was really, uh, captivated by his story.
Speaker 0 00:11:26 So George Calvert was born in, uh, a Yorkshire tenant farming community. Uh, he was, uh, an ambitious social climber, though. So he found himself in Oxford Attorney College, Oxford, and studied, um, you know, the humanities and and law. And the question is, how could you find someone who's raised Catholic, right. Uh, in, in, in a fairly poor setting, find himself in the halls of, of power and in a lead institution? And the answer is that he conformed to the Church of England. He was forced to, uh, the local authorities required that he, um, get rid of all his hopish books, um, the Catechisms and the kind of religious books, the, the Bible that was so-called Catholic. And, um, so he publicly conformed, like outwardly conformed, and that allowed him to attend Oxford, cuz only Protestants could attend mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And because of this, he was able to become a me member of Parliament and found his way up to the first Secretary of State for the king. And, um, this is an incredible position. This is pretty much the, the most powerful civil position in England at the
Speaker 2 00:12:30 Time. And there's only one Secretary of State.
Speaker 0 00:12:32 That's right. Yeah. But I think there might be two. But he's the first principal sort of
Speaker 2 00:12:36 Secretary's the first principal. So, so that's a major position.
Speaker 0 00:12:39 He's the main advisor to King James. Wow. And so you think everything's going well for him. Um, except in 1630s, he decides to, um, excuse me, 1620s, he decides to, uh, revert to his childhood faith. Now I actually think, given the historical evidence that I found that, uh, he was, he was Catholic ish all along, this is very, very difficult, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, public conformity and private belief. But, um, there's an interesting letter that suggests that he's asking for Peter Paul Rubins painting. And, uh, in that diplomatic correspondence, the person obtaining that artwork for him, uh, says that he's one of us, I e Catholic, because they saw some statues on his desk mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so these little indications of your Catholicism could be, could be, um, windows into your private faith. But he publicly shows his Catholicism now, and that means he cannot serve the king anymore. Right. Because of this oath of allegiance.
Speaker 2 00:13:37 Wow. So that his, his willingness on that to profess or to Right act in accordance with his faith, lost him the second highest ranking Yes. Position in England.
Speaker 0 00:13:49 Yes. So it is a, it's a career killer. But what's fascinating about George Culvert is he's into favorably loyal to the king. Mm. So he's, he can't profess this oath, but, uh, the king knows that he's been loyal all throughout, and he's one of the so-called good Catholics, right. That James wants to sort of, um, tolerate Right. If he can. And so he gives him a kind of consolation prize, which is the colonies in, uh, the new world. So the first colonies, Avalon, which is in, uh, new Finland, uh, modern day Newfoundland in Canada. And it's a failure. I mean, the winter is just too harsh. Yeah. Uh, more than half the people die the first winter. And so he, uh, seeks warmer environs, uh, to, to Virginia. That's Virginia here just means like a, a huge territory. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the south of North America.
Speaker 0 00:14:38 It doesn't mean Virginia's today. And the Virginians say, uh, well, you have to, you have to sign this oath of allegiance. And he says, actually, I've come prepared this time. And he has a revised oath, the oath of allegiance. And, um, if you look at the archives in the British library, it's missing. But if you go to an archive, um, in, in London in Ecclesia archive, um, you find it, it's a transcription that Priest did. And so I looked at that oath and found that he's trying to figure out, again, this, this tightrope Right. Um, a way to sort of, um, show his Catholic allegiance, but also show his English allegiance. And so his revision of the oath is just to, to get rid of the clauses about papa authority. The ones that are, are particularly sort of, um, problematic, uh, retain others. Like, you know, if you have an excommunicated king, subjects can murder them. Well, that, that seems just extreme, right? Yes. So he, he says, fine, I'll wear, I'm willing to swear that the Virginians say, well, we don't have authorization to accept your revised oath. We have the one from the king. So they sent him back to London. And the incredible thing again is that the king is willing to allow George Calver to establish a new colony. And that's what we know as Maryland. And it's named after the next King Charles and his, his wife, uh, Henry Reta Maria.
Speaker 2 00:15:58 Wow. And so when, uh, so as he's doing this, he has then, uh, he has a whole new colony Yes.
Speaker 0 00:16:06 Yes. Right next to Virginia a
Speaker 2 00:16:08 A Catholic
Speaker 0 00:16:09 Yes.
Speaker 2 00:16:09 Who has not yet sworn the oath.
Speaker 0 00:16:12 Right,
Speaker 2 00:16:12 Right. Who has lost his position, has now a colony called Maryland. That's right. Right. So how does he develop it? And, and I know his, uh, I believe it's right, his son, Cecil. Yes. Uh, participates. And how does that
Speaker 0 00:16:24 Happen? So, uh, George Culvert dies a few weeks before the final seal is set on that royal charter mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it is bequeathed to his son, Cecil, who's now the second Lord Baltimore. And that's where we get, you know, Baltimore city mm-hmm. And so on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> name, if you're, uh, this, this aristocratic line. And Cecil is the one who really gets Maryland going. Right. He's the one who, although never actually sets foot in Maryland, it has to be said. Okay. Um, he's a kind of absentee landlord. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, but he's governing from London, and he has to confront this oath allegiance problem again, because there are now settlers who are going to board the arc in the dove, these two ships that come to Maryland in the first, uh, settlement. And there are ship searchers going around, going to each person, a hundred plus people, and saying, you have to swear this oath. You have to swear this oath. And in the archives have found that some people didn't
Speaker 2 00:17:20 Probably cause. So even though they have a, they know that the right, the Lord Baltimore of this charter colony mm-hmm. <affirmative> is Catholic. They're making it very clear that he can't bring Catholics who haven't sworn that oath. That's right. Into the colonies.
Speaker 0 00:17:40 Right? Yeah. The king wants the so-called good Catholics, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the ones who are gonna be loyal mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so what I found is that some people refuse to sign this oath, uh, and then they actually just, uh, surreptitiously go to a different island, the island of white, which is on the south of the English coast, and they, they board it there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so they actually just subvert the whole oath allegiance thing now. But Cecil covered, has a political problem, which is that, now the rumor is that some of his colonists haven't sworn this thing. And so there, this is gonna be a dangerous papas colony. So what he says is, everyone has to sign an oath of allegiance and oath of allegiance, not the oath of allegiance, but an oath of allegiance. And so, like his father, he devises a new oath. And what's incredible about this oath is that it passes, passes muster.
Speaker 0 00:18:29 And it's a very, very simple oath. It basically just says, we will be allegiance to the king and doesn't mention the Pope at all. So this is the, the lawyerly solution to the Yes, yes. To the deeply sort of, um, theological political problem that presents itself since 1606. So Maryland, I would say this, it's not a established Catholic colony. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's an English colony in a Protestant empire that is founded by a Catholic that is tolerant of Protestants and Catholics. So Cecil Calvert's letter to his brother, who's the governor, says that, you know, both Protestants and Catholics on the ship and, and at land, um, should tolerate one another, should be as peaceable as possible. This is the kind of mood and culture he's creating. And then that is codified later on in the Maryland Toleration Act, which says that in one, professing a belief in Jesus Christ, uh, should not be molested, uh, or disenfranchised for the free exercise of religion. Now, I can't prove that the free exercise of religion clause is the inspiration for the First Amendment. I, I think it's a coincidence, but it just shows it's not just religious worship or belief, it's it's exercise. Right. Which is much more sort of an encompassing kind of phrase
Speaker 2 00:19:41 That would include then Right. Public displays. Absolutely. Uh, schools or whatever. Yes. Hospitals, yes. These sorts of elements that belong to the free exercise of religion. And at this point, the only colony, uh, in the 17th century that would extend that to Catholics.
Speaker 0 00:20:02 That's right. Rhode Island might have a, a distinction on this, except that their, their law is very vague. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it doesn't, and, um, there, there weren't, uh, a Catholic priest until much later. So Maryland is the first systematic law for religious toleration in early
Speaker 2 00:20:18 America. And that's in, uh, 1649. Yes. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's 40 years after the original oath. Yes. About, so it's also a, a lot of, a long time of suffering. Right. A lot of, a lot of individual English Catholics, and if they're going to Maryland hoping for something, they're not really sure they're going to find anything better as well. Is that correct? Well, I think until that point,
Speaker 0 00:20:39 I think there's a culture of toleration, even before that toleration act in Maryland. But you're right to say in England, they're still mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're still sort of outright or ver or more likely quiet persecution. Yeah. Right. The kind of persecution that says, you're a second class citizen, you maybe we'll allow you to go to mass, but it has to be underground, and we're gonna persecute your Jesuit missionaries who are going about the country and so on. So, um, in Maryland, there is a refuge, but there's still tension. Right. I mean, it isn't as if, um, you know, these laws in this culture, uh, makes everything smooth, but it is distinctive for creating a kind of tone and some legal bite to it to say, you can't, the Maryland Toleration Act is so extreme that you can't even say a derogatory term against someone. You can't use the term Jesuit pejoratively. Interesting. Um, you can't say, you know, um, uh, Mary's name in vain, like these, these are, it's kind of like a hate speech legislation, if I can put it that way.
Speaker 2 00:21:34 Interesting.
Speaker 0 00:21:34 Right. Interesting. So he really privileged peace in unity among Christians.
Speaker 2 00:21:39 Now, uh, Catholic priests could not be seen in public correct. In, in England. That's right. Yeah. Right. Or in the other colonies. So were priests, were Jesuits allowed in Maryland.
Speaker 0 00:21:54 They were, they're invited by Cecil Coard himself. So Andrew White sj, uh, celebrates the first mass in what became, you know, the United States in the 13 original colonies. Mass was obviously celebrated in Florida. Yes. Um, but that was Spanish mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, um, uh, this is an extraordinary moment when, uh, these Jesuits, uh, he had a companion, I think as well, uh, could celebrate, uh, mass. And then the Protestants had their own service. So in some ways, it looks like a typical Sunday in, in America, but realize how extraordinary that is, that they were able to do that publicly without persecution.
Speaker 2 00:22:27 Yeah. Thanks so much for going through that. I'd like to, we're gonna take a little break, and when we get back, I'd, I'd like you to walk us a little bit through, uh, some of the, uh, ways in which the Colony of Maryland develops under the Carols mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and then also a little bit, let's, I want to turn a little bit to, um, how does this impact in a way, the way we understand kind of Catholics in America today? Great. Uh, because I think there are still legacies, um, both of kind of suspicion and, and, uh, limited toleration perhaps, that maybe, uh, we've, we've experienced over the last, uh, couple hundred years as well.
Speaker 0 00:23:05 Very good.
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Speaker 2 00:23:39 Welcome back to the show. And today I'm delighted to have Michael Reinach, professor of history at Abe Maria University, the author of our Dear bought Liberty, Catholics and Religious Toleration in Early America. And we've been discussing how Catholics came to be in these British colonies when, as a whole, England at that time, uh, required, uh, its citizens in order to exercise, uh, public office, uh, or really public religion, uh, to swear an oath of allegiance, uh, to the English king, and in many ways, also an oath of at least seemingly dis allegiance, uh, to the Pope. It's interesting, by the way, I should, uh, mention this as a, I, I grew up in Maryland. I grew up in Carroll County, and I always had some vague notion that I'd heard something about Carol being maybe a Catholic. I knew a little bit about Maryland, uh, but, but very little. So it's kind of fun to go back to learn more about this story. Uh, so tell us about, right. There are two famous carols, Charles Carroll, the settler, and then the, a later one, I guess his son, Charles Carroll of Annapolis. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, so Right. How do they kind of take up the mantles that came from the Calverts?
Speaker 0 00:24:59 So, Charles Carroll, the so-called settler, is the one who came from England just around the revolution of 1688, um, uh, to Maryland. And he saw the writing on the wall. I mean, this was a, this was going to be a, a Protestant revolution mm-hmm. <affirmative> that was going to, uh, effectively mean that the, the Catholic James II would no longer be king and, uh, any of his advisors and so forth would be therefore out of office, the Privy Council, the kind of, you know, so that the aristocrats and so on. And advisors who made up his cabinet, if you will, um, would be out of office. And he happened to be a clerk for one of the Privy Council members. And so he sees that within a few months, he'll be out of a job, and he gets, um, a, a very nice position of being Attorney General for Maryland.
Speaker 0 00:25:44 Uh, he's Catholic. Um, he, his ancestry is from Ireland. Um, and it's the kind of Irish, an ancestry that was much more willing to, um, accommodate English settlement or colonization mm-hmm. <affirmative> of Ireland. And so, um, he's willing to play as he's already shown to play ball with, with English. Right. And so he sees in the Maryland design of the project of the Maryland colony, a kind of opportunity to live his English Irish English identity, um, but still is Catholic. And so he immigrates, uh, in order to be the, the sort of lawyer, um, in Maryland and faces persecution, because as soon as the Revolution revolution of 16, eight happens, the Maryland government, uh, takes over the Protestants, take over Maryland government. They, they get rid of the, um, uh, the Maryland Toleration Act for Catholics. So things, things mirror interesting in some
Speaker 2 00:26:40 Ways. So the Toleration Act Yes. In Maryland that we, we spoke about is the one that really allowing Catholics to have this free exercise of religion and other Christians mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, really lasts then from 1649 to 1688.
Speaker 0 00:26:53 It's about 50 years of, of, of Kirsten toleration mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, um, Charles Carroll, uh, of the settler was expecting this sort of tolerant society. Uh, he doesn't get it, and he agitates for legal reforms for this and so on, is unsuccessful. His son, Charles Carroll of Annapolis, Annapolis Maryland, um, continues the fight actually much more aggressively than his father did. Um, but no less successfully. Um, so much so that he's willing to even immigrate to French territory, what we would call Louisiana. Right. Uh, the Louisiana Territory. Yes. Which would mean, uh, a huge deficit to his estate and so on and so forth. But he's willing to do that because he feels like he's not a full sort of citizen. Right. He's not, um, he's disenfranchised, uh, his son, Charles Kerr of Carrollton can't go to a Catholic school. He can't hold public office and so and so forth.
Speaker 0 00:27:46 So, um, they can leave a quiet Catholic life. It's not like an act of persecution and burning at the stake, but it, it does mean that a very wealthy person cannot have the advantages of that sort of status in politics and, and law. So all that, uh, history of Maryland and the vicissitudes of, you know, um, Catholics status in English, um, political culture, uh, comes to Charles Carroll Carrollton, and he's the one who eventually signs the Declaration of Independence. He only Catholic to do so. Yeah. But he inherits this family history and this colonial history, and it really animates him, uh, to do something about it.
Speaker 2 00:28:26 Yeah. So how does, how does that happen? Because we've kind of left us at the end where whatever, if, if they had any space to be Catholic publicly, it's evaporated. Right. How then does it recover so that we end up with a Catholic signing the Declaration of Independence?
Speaker 0 00:28:42 It is a pretty dramatic transformation. And I think there are a lot of factors. I don't want to say that, uh, you know, it's just Catholics, you know, uh, their agency and their perseverance that led to this. I think it also required sort of a broad, uh, toleration Right. Among Christians and Deists and, you know, all sorts of people in the American founding generation to get to a point where we can say, we can leave some of these litmus tests and, you know, persecution, histories aside. Right. And part of it's just pragmatic, right. There's no, there's gonna be no Church of the United States. It's just impossible and a kind of sociological thing. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:29:21 <affirmative>. Yeah. You can't resinate Anglicanism, although it was tried in some states for a little bit. Right.
Speaker 0 00:29:27 Yeah. There, there
Speaker 2 00:29:28 Are South Carolina. That's right. Right. Yeah. Has I think some kind of Anglican form of statehood state religious, and until like 1840 or so,
Speaker 0 00:29:37 They, um, the, the, the oldest one I think was New Hampshire. Okay. In the 1830s. Okay. Um, but it depends on what you mean by establishment, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but a lot of the colonies, uh, later states did have some remnant of church establishment, and a lot of that was Protestant. Yeah. So that was a matter of the states, though. Right. I see. I see. Given the diversity, the kind of social fact of religious pluralism to demand conformity at a national level would be impossible. And
Speaker 2 00:30:03 I
Speaker 0 00:30:03 See, so there are a lot of factors mm-hmm. <affirmative> that sort of, uh, feed into a kind of First Amendment right. Result mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I, I wanna insist though that even if they had a broad toleration, why include Catholics? Yeah. Given the anti-Catholic history, and it's a very particular argument against Catholics. You mentioned John Locke. What he says is they deliver themselves up to a foreign prince. And if you look at the Declaration of Independence, well, you're not just declaring independence from King George the third. Right. You're declaring independence from any foreign power. Right. And you look at the oath, uh, for naturalization, uh, to be a US citizen, likewise, the abjure, any sort of foreign prince, potent tape power, and so on mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's the particular argument against Catholics. It's really, it's, it's, yes, it's about, you know, doctrines about the Eucharist and so on, but really politically it's about, you know, foreign authority.
Speaker 0 00:30:54 And so how do we get there? Well, you know, these Carol Catholics, right? A agree with George and Cecil Copper. They, they don't think the allegiance they have to the Pope, um, leads to, uh, being a bad American. Right? They don't think that the allegiance to the Pope is total, uh, for temporal affairs, civil affairs. Right. There's a kind of, let's call it juridical separation, a kind of, to put in medieval terms of two swords theory, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in which the Pope has spiritual authority. And, you know, your rightful political authority has, has authority to make laws in, in a civil manner, right? And so, um, that's the kind of bargain that they insist that Catholics can make. And so that's what allows Charles Carroll to sort of present himself as a, as a good Catholic American
Speaker 2 00:31:43 Now as they're doing that. Um, and within the, does that mean then, say after, uh, the Declaration of Independence, the, um, uh, the eventual Bill of Rights, do, are Catholics then, kind of, are they relatively safe to practice their faith publicly in the united, in the colonies?
Speaker 0 00:32:05 For the most part, yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's an incredible transformation to go from, you know, persecution of priests. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, uh, you know, Catholic sanho public office to, um, in many, many states, there are just a few states that don't allow Catholics to serve in public office. Mm-hmm. Right. But if you look at Article six in the US Constitution, it says there's no religious test for public office. Mm-hmm. How could you, when you already have Catholics at the constitutional convention Yeah. Framing that article. Yeah. Right. It, it would be the embarrassment, uh, of, of recusing two Catholics from that convention, if you wanna say that, you know, we, we can't have, have Catholic serving. So, um, you know, there, there's a kind of moment, especially because, you know, America's allied with a French, uh, Catholic country mm-hmm. <affirmative> to win the Revolutionary War. They want to curry favor with Catholic Canadians and so on. There's a lot of other political pragmatic reasons too, but, but all the same. You have John Adams saying he's a, he's, you know, Charles Carroll of Carrollton is Catholic, yet a zealous supporter of our, of our cause mm-hmm. <affirmative> the yet is interesting. Right. There's the, he senses, there's some kind of tension there, but knows that Charles Carroll and his second cousin, John Carroll, became the bishop, are, are good patriots. Yeah. Right. They want America to, to, you know, flourish and prosper.
Speaker 2 00:33:21 Now, at the same time that say you seemingly have Catholics legally and politically, I wouldn't, I don't, you know, begin to have kind of status mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, in, uh, the United States. You also of course have, uh, Rome, uh, that's somewhat suspicious of Catholics that are Right. Swearing their allegiance to the, you know, the president of the United States. So I know you, you talked a little bit, could you say a little bit about kind of John Carroll and Sure. How, how did these, you know, American Catholics not only have to satisfy America, but also somehow convince Rome that they're genuinely Catholic as
Speaker 0 00:34:05 Well? Yeah. The, the main conduit between sort of US Vatican relations, if I could put it that way, is is John Carroll? Yeah. Uh, a Jesuit, actually X Jesuit, because the Jesuit order was suppressed during this time, but he's a priest. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:34:17 And what year is this around?
Speaker 0 00:34:19 Um, for, for John Carroll's sort of, um, correspondence with Rome? It's, it's towards the end of the 18th century. Okay. So, uh, the 1780s and nineties mm-hmm. <affirmative>, especially the nineties, is when he's, he's really, this is when he becomes bishop. He's really concerned with building up the US Catholic Church. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there are a few instances that, um, show the kind of compromise he wants to make. One is that he insists that the first bishop of the United States, Catholic Bishop of the United States, needs to be elected by his fellow clergymen. And this is a nod to the kind of democratic spirit that's, um, forming in the American Republic. He doesn't want it to be the case. The Pope is the one appointing him, because that looks like foreign interference. He wants to have, you know, American Catholic priests electing him. Now, obviously, it has to be approved by the Holy Sea.
Speaker 0 00:35:16 Um, but that move is a kind of, uh, subtle or not so subtle sort of way to show that American institutions and the Catholic Church can be in harmony with one another. Uh, the other instance is, is when John Carroll has to explain that the US Congress doesn't have to, uh, approve, uh, the, the installation of a bishop, cuz the Holy Seas thinking, well, every time we have a bishop in Western Europe, the king or whatever reigning, uh, political authority there is, has to approve of it. And so the people nuncio in Paris asked Benjamin Franklin to ask you as Congress, can you please approve John Carroll becoming to Bishop? And Franklin's like, this is not in the ambit of, of congressional power.
Speaker 2 00:36:03 Interesting.
Speaker 0 00:36:03 And John Carroll agrees, he said, this is ridiculous. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, he's actually quite angry mm-hmm. <affirmative> that the Holy Sea is insisting on this, and Congress dutifully says, and it's the first instance that I see of church state relations. Right. Even before the First Amendment, they say, uh, we have no power mm-hmm. In purely spiritual affairs. So pick whatever bishop you want. And the third thing is, is if, if you've been, uh, to, to Baltimore and seen the, uh, basilica there, that architecture's a very conscious choice on Carol and his trustee's part. He was presented two, uh, designs. One was a kind of, uh, neogothic design, and one was what you see, a kind of neo Roman with some interesting elements. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, tacked onto it. And Carol chose the Neo Roman design. Now, he asked Benjamin Henry Latrobe to be the architect, the same architect for the US Capitol redesign and the Neo Roman design interesting. Is much more conducive to the kind of American political and religious landscape that we find in Baltimore and Washington, dc that kind of federal style. Yeah. And so Latrobe actually wanted the gothic design. He thought that was more fitting for Catholics mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, um, Carol, although he liked gothic architecture in Baroque, he thought this is much more sort of in harmony with the kind of Catholicism he wanted to present to his American patriots.
Speaker 2 00:37:25 Wow. It's, that's the same cathedral that's in Baltimore today. That's right. Right, right. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Actually, I think I, I attended a, my, uh, high school graduation in that same building. Uh,
Speaker 0 00:37:34 It's a wonderful, wonderful church.
Speaker 2 00:37:35 It is. And that is interesting. Yeah. It does have, it has a kind of grandeur, um, but more of the grandeur of kind of, uh, soft, big round domes more similar to the, uh, you know, to the capital. That's right. And, uh, and that Romanesque
Speaker 0 00:37:49 Of, and it's an interesting sort of,
Speaker 2 00:37:51 Kind of fits within the American landscape, but still is, you know, 100% Catholic. It
Speaker 0 00:37:57 Is, it's, it's cruciform mm-hmm. <affirmative> Right. Has the really standard sort of quotations of, of earlier Christian architecture.
Speaker 2 00:38:04 Okay. Yeah. That's great. Uh, so just making sure we have a little time to, how do you see this, how does this legacy somewhat kind of shape the way Catholics should, um, view their political, uh, circumstances today?
Speaker 0 00:38:21 Well, I think this story doesn't end, uh, with, with, uh, the Carols. Yes. Um, it continues in the 19th and 20th century, and the tensions don't go away. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I don't want to say everything was resolved by the time we get to the, you know, 18 hundreds mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, the tensions continue in some ways. They magnify, uh, with, um, the, you know, a massive wave of, of Catholic immigrants. So by the time we get to 1850, Catholicism is the largest single denomination in the United States. Yeah. And, um, the No-Nothing Party and the Baba riots and all these other sort of, um, historical moments, um, witness to the fact that Catholics still feel that, uh, they're not fully part of the American, you know, sort of, uh, ideas institutions Yeah. And so on. Um, or that at least Protestants don't think so. Yeah. Or at least some Protestants don't
Speaker 2 00:39:08 Think so. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is like Al Smith runs for president in 1912, is
Speaker 0 00:39:11 That correct? Yeah, so the, in the early 19, um, uh, hundreds, you have Al Smith, uh,
Speaker 2 00:39:17 Who's
Speaker 0 00:39:17 A Catholic, that's right. Catholic governor of New York who runs for president. Um, he's defeated. And, you know, part of the historic, historical explanation is that it was because of anti-Catholic prejudice. And so, you know, by the time we get to jfk, we had the same kind of arguments presented to him, and he gives that famous address in 1960 in Houston when he says that, I do not speak for the church, and the church doesn't speak for me. That's the kind of, uh, rhetorical move that he makes sort of complete separation. John JFK goes too far mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:39:47 <affirmative>
Speaker 0 00:39:49 Relative to what the Carrolls were suggesting, but that's the sort of rhetorical move I think he feels he needs to make in order to settle what they would call the Catholic question. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and he wins. And, um, or at least it doesn't win because of that necessarily, but he puts that to rest in some ways. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I think after Vatican two, there's a kind of settlement there. I think what we're feeling now is, is maybe an unsettlement of the settlement. Right. Yeah. There's certain moments, a lot of Supreme Court decisions have to do with Catholicism, right. Uh, Catholic, um, uh, adoption agencies, you know, uh, the, um, HHS mandate for Catholic institutions, and not just Catholic, but it often is the case that these Supreme Court decisions have to do with Catholic institutions, the number of Catholics on the Supreme Court and in Congress, the current president is Catholic. And so all, you know, these, it's, it feels like it's bubbling up again. Mm-hmm. Right. These, these tensions, uh, of, of how Catholics should understand their, their, let's call it dual, dual dual identities.
Speaker 2 00:40:48 Yeah. And, and maybe one lesson and, you know, just, or at least observations mm-hmm. <affirmative> that we can draw is one is the son is these things never really were, I mean, they, there was no way to kind of settle them neatly. Right. That's right. The people, like the Carols argued for the best, the best legal protection they could get at the time. They often failed, and then they argued for more. And then, you know, and, and at some point due to kind of circumstances outside their control, um, you know, they were able to be successful. Who knows, it's like if they hadn't actually become, if they hadn't declared independence from England, there might not have been the occasion to have to actually like be more self-conscious in their own toleration of one another.
Speaker 0 00:41:37 That's right. There is a movement right now mm-hmm. <affirmative> among some Catholics to sort of, as a word double down mm-hmm. <affirmative> and say, we should really try to instantiate as much as possible Catholicism in politics. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. And it comes in various, you know, names and, and ideologies. Um, and then there's some that just say, we should just remove ourselves completely from politics. Mm-hmm. And if you have those kind of, um, two polls, I think what, what the history that I show in the book is suggesting is that there's a middle way that is all about, as you say, negotiation and not compromising one's principles necessarily, although that could happen too, but negotiation, trying to sort of work within the world, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> and try to improve your lot as much as possible that presented possibilities for evangelization and so on. And, you know, I think hopefully the 13th who's often cited as someone who wants, you know, the, uh, revival of, you know, um, Christian principles and politics and so on.
Speaker 0 00:42:35 But he also recognizes when he is talking about the United States in particular, that the, a lot of good has come out of Yeah. Um, Catholicism in the United States, that this kind of liberty, um, from the state for the church to govern itself according to its own principles, um, can do a lot of good. He says it's not the ideal Right. In a kind of metaphysical picture, but given the circumstances that you have, it has extraordinary benefits. And I think the Carols would be very happy to hear that. Yeah. Uh, element because they would see the efforts that they did in this kind of legal and political cultural compromising or negotiation bearing fruit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:11 And, and we have this right, the iron, not the irony, but sort of an irony, uh, maybe providential smile, uh, that in a way in the United States in which Catholics were largely suspect, either officially or unofficially for most of the time period of the United States, we saw develop probably the greatest number of Catholics greatest Catholic school system, educational system in the world, the,
Speaker 0 00:43:39 The, the largest charity in the world, the
Speaker 2 00:43:40 Largest charity in the world, both for education and for hospitals. That's right. Right. The Catholic hospital system has grown up and, uh, and Right. All these, you know, uh, you know, works of mercy, spiritual and corporal, uh, and in a way that the Catholic church in America, right. Which of course is just a small part of a worldwide global Catholic church, but nonetheless, uh, has, uh, been able to be a source of, uh, kind of, I mean, somewhat spiritual renewal, uh, and even, you know, financial support for Catholics all over the world. And so it is kind of, uh, that, that the labors in a way that the, uh, carols made at least did open up soil Yes. Uh, that could bear fruit, uh, without ever really kind of resolving it entirely. And it seems to me that even right, the free exercise of religion, you might say, well, uh, what exactly does that mean?
Speaker 2 00:44:33 And when can the church do that? And when can it not? And what's a religion and what's not a religion? All those, in a way, are not totally answered. And I think to this day, those sorts of questions create legal challenges and legal problems. Uh, but it's also a great way, maybe politically sometimes we can't ever, like, we can't ever kind of square the circle, right? Yes. We have to respond to the political circumstances of the day trying to create as much freedom as we can for the exercise of our faith, and also take comfort that that is
Speaker 0 00:45:05 Temporary.
Speaker 2 00:45:05 That's right. Right. I mean, in any particular, um, government, uh, situation, right. Uh, that the, um, this element that, you know, that the, what the church really promises is, uh, is is something beyond, right. Yeah. Uh, you know, the current political order.
Speaker 0 00:45:22 Yeah, yeah. Uh, politics is, is an art of the possible mm-hmm. <affirmative> and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you, you have to deal with the circumstances you're given with it, you mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it seems, um, well, it's revolutionary to, to, to impose, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> a kind of theoretical ideal Yeah. Onto a situation that may, may sort of, uh, resist it. And so I think the story told here is, is, uh, one of people trying to find the best way forward that doesn't compromise their faith mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but, um, but, but in some ways, try to, uh, create the conditions for other people Right. To, to find meaning in life and to live out their faith. Well,
Speaker 2 00:45:59 That's great. Well, thank you so much for, uh, the wonderful book, uh, that you've written and for talking with us about it today. I also wanna ask you a couple questions before we, or three questions before we, uh, leave. Just first, what's a book you've been reading?
Speaker 0 00:46:12 Well, one book that I've been rereading, Uhhuh <affirmative> is, uh, Homer's Odyssey. And, um, I've taught this a lot in, in my, in my classroom. Yes. And, um, it's just a delight to, to reread it, um, really with an eye for, uh, some of the major themes that come out of that book. So, uh, the Return Home Yeah. Is, uh, really powerful and really sets the precedent for epics and, uh, drama afterwards. And, um, you know, when you look at the Odyssey in light of, uh, later works, right? You think of like St. Augustine's Confessions and, you know, Dante's Inferno and so on. You get the sense that, that that that return to home as such an important indeed spiritual Yeah, right. Uh, theme as well. Um, so it's just fun to read again.
Speaker 2 00:46:55 Yes, yes. And of course, now you're reading it as a father. Yes. Right? Yes. And, uh, right. Odysseus is coming back to help his son. Right, right. As a, as a glorious moment Yeah. In the story. Uh, what's a spiritual practice, uh, that you do maybe on a daily basis, just, you know, one to kind of help find meaning stay grounded?
Speaker 0 00:47:14 Yeah. So, um, one is the first thing that I try to do every morning, which is to, um, be humble. Like go down on my knees Mm. And, um, and offer the day up to, to God. And, uh, that going down to the, the hummus, right, the humbleness mm-hmm. <affirmative> of the ground, uh, and say like, this is, this day is a gift rather than something to be conquered or something like that. Yeah. Um, it sort of sets the tone and orients me mm-hmm. <affirmative>, hopefully, um, to, to something that's other directed and, uh, and so on. Um, you know, it, it's interesting cuz that's been a long standing practice among people of many faiths. Uh, but it's, it's actually now seeping into the kind of psych psychology, how self-help. I've, I'm told, like, you know, people are saying, make your bed the first thing you do, make your bed. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, like, do something concrete. And so in some ways there's kind of an alignment with, with all these kind of pieces of advice. But, but that's one thing I do.
Speaker 2 00:48:10 That's wonderful. And, uh, finally, so this is Right, a Catholic theology podcast. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what's a belief you held about God, uh, that maybe you discovered at one point was false mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And what was the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:48:25 You know, I don't know if it, if I, I don't wanna put it in terms of antagonism, but one of the things that, that I discovered is, is, uh, let's put it this way, like sort of divine affiliation, right? That we are sons and daughters of God. That's a very powerful, um, not just metaphor <laugh>. Yes. Um, but metaphysical reality mm-hmm. <affirmative> that, again, you're thinking about fundamental orientation, right? And kind of like the, the scaffolding one's life. I think that's so powerful to see because, you know, you can, you can derive so many interesting things from it, right? Not just that, you know, if you think of as, as as father, right? That sometimes he'll want you to do better. It might be a little bit angry with you, but it's not just God is angry. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's also God is merciful, like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, if you begin to think of it as like a good parent, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, then a lot of spiritual consolation can come through that. So, um, that, that divine affiliation is something that, that has really spoke to me. I don't know if there was an opposition to something else, but Uhhuh <affirmative>. But it's, it's been very consoling.
Speaker 2 00:49:26 Well, thank you very much. Uh, again, our guest has been Dr. Michael Breidenbach, author of our dear Bo Liberty Catholics and Religious Toleration in Early America with Harvard University Press, and a member of our history department here at Ave Murray University. Uh, thank you so much for being on our
Speaker 0 00:49:46 Show. Thank you very much. Michael,
Speaker 3 00:49:48 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
