Speaker 0 00:00:00 When you first read the Confessions, it's almost like you're listening in on someone in prayer. You know, we mentioned that the dialogues constitute Augustine's first writings. Well, in some sense, he never really abandons the genre. He puts it in a different way. It's a dialogue between himself and God. Right. And it's as if we're kind of walked in on him at prayer, intruding on his, in his bedroom as he's praying to God. It's very authentic.
Speaker 2 00:00:29 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Daphne. And today I am thrilled to be joined by Dr. Gerald Bosma, associate professor of Theology at Veer University, and a good friend and colleague.
Speaker 0 00:00:45 I'm delighted to be here, Michael. Thank you very much for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 00:00:47 Well, thanks Gerald, for being here. And, uh, today we're really excited to kind of dive into the thought of one of the great, uh, theologians, the great doctors, the great father of the church, Saint Augustan of Hippo. And it's hard to probably overexaggerate Augustine's influence on really the way that we have articulated, uh, the biblical revelation, right. Especially in, in the West. And, uh, so I just think it's a wonderful time to kind of get to know Augustine, to get to know his teaching. And for, uh, listeners who may not know. Right. You've been studying Augustine, I think, off and on for over 15 years. I think so. And, and, uh, published a coup now, uh, getting ready to publish almost several books on Augustine and, uh, countless articles. Uh, so it's a wonderful opportunity for, uh, listeners and viewers to be able to kind of get a little sneak peek into your course that you also teach on Augustine for our students. Sure. Uh, so one thing I wanted to just ask you a little bit about is, you know, what about people that kind of sometimes will often use the word Augustinian, um, somehow as though it's like a pessimistic worldview. You know, I want to, you know, Augustine teaches original sin. Augustine kind of teaches a negative outlook on humanity, um, and these sorts of things. How would you respond to that?
Speaker 0 00:02:19 Right. Well, I mean, Augustine, as you say at the outset, is a towering figure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he has kind of an immortal legacy. I think apart from, uh, the Apostle Paul, it's hard to figure another person who's in such definitive shape. Yeah. Uh, to the way in which we think about our faith. And so I think that, that, I think initial staging should put the question in some perspective. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if Augustine is, is pessimistic, then the Christian faith is pessimistic. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that is not the case at all. I think if you look at Augustine's corpus as a whole, you see in countless places the kind of optimism, the joy, the hope that radiates from his theology. You have to remember that Augustine's first foray into the faith was in response to the mannequin. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And if there's anything that marked Manichean, it was this indomitable pessimism. Right. And Augustine's optimism about grace. Mm-hmm. About the goodness of creation, about God's working in our souls to join us to himself. Um, v very much the opposite of the pessimistic vision of the world that you have from, from the mannequins and their associates.
Speaker 2 00:03:19 Yeah. That's, that's a beautiful, beautiful way of beginning. So let's maybe just talk a little bit about, uh, how did you, how did you set up the course on Augustine? Right? Yeah. Such a big figure. I think there was a line for, was it Isador who said that anybody who claims to have read all of Augustine must be lying. Right,
Speaker 0 00:03:36 Exactly. Someone has to be selective <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:03:38 Exactly. So, um, what were some of the, the big themes, uh, that you maybe wanted students to walk away with? Or how did you think about what was the most important in trying to organize Augustine so that, you know, students would be able to learn? I
Speaker 0 00:03:52 Wanted to give students kinda exposure to the breadth of Augustine, but also kind of, you could say his, his greatest hits. Right. Okay. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so that students go away from the course having read, you could say the big things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the Augustinian corpus. And in some sense, I structured the course chronologically. So first we started with his early works, and what's fascinating about August's Early Works, uh, some written before his baptism, in fact mm-hmm. <affirmative> and some after, is that they're all dialogues. Right. So Augustine's first eight works are exclusively dialogues. Yeah. And then he moves away from that genre mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he never again writes a dialogue mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's in itself an interesting question. Why the dialogue? Yeah. And why abandoned the dialogue? Now, what's going on in those early works, which I thought it would be so fascinating to spend some time there initially, is Augustine's engaging with his kind of philosophic legacy, have to remember Augustine's, deeply learned in the Latin classics.
Speaker 0 00:04:40 You know, he's familiar with rhetorical, grammatical, philosophic legacy, familiar, certainly with people like Virgil and Cicero, but also Pluto, uh, Platanus quintillion Terence. And he, he's very much at home in that world, and now he's trying on his fledgling faith and seeing how those two come together. Right. His classical formation, both rhetorical and philosophic, and this faith that he's taking seriously intellectually for the first time, trying to give a reasoned account intellectually of the faith that, you know, he had kind of un reflexively taken from his mother Monica, but now thinking about Right. Can, can he, can he reason about this? So that, that's fascinating, I think, and spending some time there in the early works, again, four dialogues, he writes before he goes down to Milan to be baptized, and then four works, uh, when he goes back to Africa before his, his ordination and while still in Rome about to sail for Africa,
Speaker 2 00:05:33 Is maybe one, uh, is there one, uh, dialogue of, of his early writings that you, uh, that you either particularly find kind of easy to teach, or maybe one that you just enjoy reading yourself?
Speaker 0 00:05:45 Sure, yeah. Uh, one that I always gravitate towards in both I enjoy teaching and I enjoy reading, is Dave Beata Vita, which is translate on the Happy Life. Yeah. It's actually very similar to a title that Seneca has, if it's one of, of his early dialogues mm-hmm. In both cases, it's, it's the quest for happiness, for flourishing, for fulfillment. Mm-hmm. And in the kind of heady strom that's the kind of classical antiquity, all the different philosophic accounts share one common question. Right. What makes for happiness mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how are we to chief flourishing fulfillment? And, you know, you have your peripatetics, your politeness, your stoics, your epicurious. And in that kind of heady Strom again, Augustine comes in and says, uh, you know, engaging with those figures that only Christ and embracing the wisdom of Christ constitutes happiness. But what's so distinctive about that dialogue Yeah. Is that one of the central figures is his mother Monica, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who speaks about her wisdom, uh, not from from learning and study, but buying a direct infused gift of the Holy Spirit, which allows her to make the decisive entry at critical points in that dialogue. So, thinking about Monica mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, very early in Augustine's writings, uh, and the way she kinda stays with him mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> is a, is a fascinating thing. Right.
Speaker 2 00:06:56 She becomes the right, a decisive figure, uh, in the, if, if you wanna think about like, uh, the platonic dialogues, right. Uh, in the Augustinian dialogues, uh, it's, it's, it's Monica who shows up to share wisdom. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:07:10 So you think of, of, uh, Diatima, for example, in the symposium. Well, Monica takes that place Okay. At Vito.
Speaker 2 00:07:16 Yeah. That's great. Can you, um, how, how would you summarize his argument, uh, cuz I think Plato and Aristotle and Seneca, you mentioned stoic in many ways. They say many true things about happiness. Yeah. Kind of true things about the happy life. What is it, what is it that Augustine finds kind of wanting in those accounts and then thinks that Christ supplies?
Speaker 0 00:07:41 Right. Right. Well, I think you really have to get into the, the weeds somewhat here in terms terms of mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, how do the stoics think happiness comes to the human person mm-hmm. <affirmative>, well, especially through internal appropriation of virtue. Right. Uh, being able to show a sense of apathy and not being affected or affected by external goods or, or external, uh, sorrows. Um, and, and the opposite of spectrum. You have the epicurean Right. For whom all good else on the outside, you've maybe heard the, uh, you know, eat, drink, can be married for tomorrow, we die Very much the kind of epicurean, uh, maxim. And while the, the Perces Aristotle School said, well, it's a bit of both, right? You have to have the goods of the body, but in addition, you have to have internal virtue. That's kind of the, the, we could say the, the ultimate source of happiness, but it's a happiness proper to man, a man is, has a body.
Speaker 0 00:08:32 So he needs friends, some wealth, some, some basic leisure to be able to pursue contemplative questions. Now, Augusta notes, all these various schools consist of happiness in this life, right. Either externally or internally, or a combination thereof. No. Says Augustine happiness is the preserve of the next life. And that's a mainstay in his writings already in De Vita, which I mentioned there. Monica makes that decisive interjection that happiness is possessing Christ for all eternity, but the very late in his life, in the city of God in book 19, that's ultimately where ends up as well. Yeah. Right. Happiness consists ultimately in the vision of God given through
Speaker 2 00:09:09 Christ. Yeah. Right? Yeah. There is that somehow death must be overcome, that any happiness we have that would last in, that would be in this life Right. Would always be provisional. Right. Uh, and any kind of lasting happiness Right. Would have to be, somehow death has been overcome. Eternal life has been given. Yeah. Uh, we, we possess not only, and, and in a way we have to possess, as you put it, not just eternal life though, it's not just though just life continues. We have to have a new life. We have to have a life where we would be able to know and love.
Speaker 0 00:09:45 Right.
Speaker 2 00:09:46 Uh, the God who knows and loves us.
Speaker 0 00:09:48 That's Yeah. That's
Speaker 2 00:09:49 Beautiful. Right. In that sense that we actually, um, you know, we, we, we have, we have to get what we want. Right? Right. But we have to want what is ultimately right God, and not just God abstractly, but the creator of the universe who is now incarnate. Right. In Jesus Christ.
Speaker 0 00:10:08 And it's that transformation, especially of our knowing and loving Yeah. That Augusta details in his kind of his own journey in the confession mm-hmm. In such poignant personal ways.
Speaker 2 00:10:17 Yeah. So maybe we, you know, having kind of looked a little bit at these early dialogues, um, why don't we talk a little bit about the confessions, however his best known work. Right. You know, uh, I think it's, uh, um, assigned, and I know we assigned it at Veer University in our core curriculum. Right. Uh,
Speaker 0 00:10:32 Well, and many secular schools do as well, and
Speaker 2 00:10:34 Even secular schools do. Absolutely. It's really one of these great works of, you know, Western culture. How, how do we, how do you try to introduce students, uh, to the confessions?
Speaker 0 00:10:44 Yeah. Well, I think that's the first place is, you know, that it does have this kind of enduring character that it's widely read mm-hmm. <affirmative> and continues to be widely read, continues to speak to people. Yeah. Right. And in that sense, it's a, well, it's a classic and a classic is one of those texts that, you know, you can continue as an individual to return to with Prophet, you know, I've been teaching the Confessions for 15 years. I've read it for I don't know, many years. Uh, and every semester it kinda speaks to me in new ways. Mm-hmm. Something I didn't notice before. Mm-hmm. Arrests me and what's true for the individual is also true for society. Right. Classics are those texts that kind of, they form of people. Mm-hmm. You think of Homer does for the Greeks or Virgil mm-hmm. You know, for the Latins, Dante for the Italians.
Speaker 0 00:11:23 Well, what the Confessions does is it writes a story for the Christian people. Right. And Augusta's quite intentional about that when he writes the Confessions. I mean, he styles himself, the protagonist and the narrative as the new Virgil. Right. Who's also traveling about the Mediterranean orbit, also kind of not listening Well, we might say to the Divine Command. And then finally he set sail for Carthage from Carthage to Rome. Right. Yeah. And also leaves someone, you know, weeping on the beach as he set sail for Rome. So many ways, that's one way to read the Confessions is kind of the Christian people's new epic.
Speaker 2 00:11:57 Yeah. So just as a right in, you know, um, what, uh, Virgil's Ania you have, uh, really Right. The story of Nias and then the founding of Rome. Right. Uh, in the confessions you have Right. Augustine telling the story of he's both Virgil and an neis. He, and he's telling the story not of the founding of Rome, but in a way of the founding of Yeah. To a certain extent. Right. You know, the, the church that we live in. That's,
Speaker 0 00:12:23 That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 00:12:24 Which is fascinating cuz if you think about it that way, then, uh, often if people are familiar with the confessions, they may know that the first nine chapters are kind of more, uh, fit within a more standard story. Autobiography 10 is a little bit within that. And then by the time you get to 11, 12 and 13, the last three books, you're dealing with very complex matters of reading the genesis. That's
Speaker 0 00:12:46 Right. That's right. Uh, and that's why it's helpful, I think, always to start with the, the initial books, because they're, those are, those are very personal. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, although it's Augustin's own story or personal Poignant Tale of Conversion, uh, it's also an every Man tale, which is why I think it continues kind of echo in so many different people and they can read it and relate to it. You know, when you first read the Confessions, it's almost like you're listening in on someone in prayer. Right. And that's why, you know, we mentioned that the dialogues constitutes Augustine's first writings. Well, in some sense, he never really abandons the genre. He puts it in a different, different way. It's a dialogue between himself and, and God. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:13:24 Right. Doesn't the, um, I don't know about in the Latin, but doesn't it begin, uh, with Augustine's confession Doesn't begin With You. Oh, Lord. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:13:33 Great. Are you Oh Lord. And greatly to be praised. Yeah. Um, again, that's not how most of us would start our own autobiography. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we might speak about formative influences, our parents, our teachers, our hometown. Yeah. It's not there in Augustine, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Instead, what you get is, uh, Augustine a prayer, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's as if we're kind of walked in on him at prayer, intruding on his, in his bedroom as he's praying to God mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Which gives it, uh, yeah. A real dynamism. Yeah. It's very authentic
Speaker 2 00:14:00 And, and in a way helping us, when we kind of watch Augustine narrate his life, and it's almost in the second person, right. It's not in the first person or third, it's in the sec. He's almost kind of writing it to you Oh, Lord. Right. That we begin then to realize I have to learn to be able to tell my, to understand who I am.
Speaker 0 00:14:21 Right.
Speaker 2 00:14:22 Is fundamentally, who are you, Lord, you created me mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I walked away from you. Right, right. You brought me back. Yeah. Right. Uh, and it's really a very, you know, educative in that way and in a strange way, I don't know if you ever, you know, if you ever have this experience when you're reading great novels or great epics or great stories, uh, you know, you, you kind of wish you could live in those stories, right? Yeah. Yeah. And this is something that, uh, j r r Tolkien writes about in on fairy stories. He says, we wish we could live in stories. That's good, that's good. We could live in great fairy tales. Uh, but in a certain sense, when you read the confessions in a way, you can't, you can't enter into the, you know, kind of Augustine's life in the fourth century. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but in another way you can, because we can actually carry out the exact story that Augustine has when we begin to narrate our lives. Right. As this kind of heroic journey both away from God Right. And then the return to God.
Speaker 0 00:15:28 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:15:29 Could you say a little bit more about, uh, how, you know, he begins to, like, how he talks about his own, like, wandering away from God? Yeah. Cause I think that does play a big role in the first half of the confessions. Right?
Speaker 0 00:15:45 Right. And the word wandering is important there. Right. He uses the word where we get our English word error from. Okay. But that's, that's above all the, the, the adjective that describes, um, DiUS. Right. Oh, okay. S is known for his wanderings mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so Gusan appropriates that word and gives it a certain theological spin. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he is alienated wandering from God. Right. And the story of, of the confessions is the story of conversion, or really multiple conversions, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's the way in which grace, uh, operates on his knowing and his loving. Right. Uh, and all of that I think is already very tightly wound up, uh, in the very first, uh, paragraphs of the confessions, and then the rest of the work kind of unfurls those kind of, uh, major themes. And so, in Book one, many of us have read it, you know, you have the scene with Augustine, uh, first as an infant.
Speaker 0 00:16:37 Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And when you first read this, and my students first read it, they're, they're often perplexed, right? You have this rather endure description of infant behavior, right. Thrashing violently seeking to attack its mother vengeful and jealous at its petty brother drinking milk. Uh, but, but what what Augusta is doing, there is subtly between the lines telling us that there's something wrong with the will. Right. Uh, that original sin affects the will that we don't naturally and easily incline to the good mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. Uh, that the acquisition of virtue is difficult, that we're not born with kind of native reserves of virtue mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and in the second half of book one, he turns to his boyhood at school, and there you turn from the will to the intellect. Right. And that, that learning is difficult because it says, I learned nothing unless compelled Right. You had to be beaten to learn, which, you know, caused him great psychological angst. He tells us later. Um, but, but again, the idea that we don't kind of jump into truth with great alacrity, that's hard work as well. So, but there's something kind of wrong at the outset with our loving and our knowing mm-hmm. With our will and our intellect. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:44 I also try to remind students that infants means, uh, without
Speaker 0 00:17:48 Speech. Right.
Speaker 2 00:17:49 Uh, so you have two big themes there. One is, well, we are without speech to speak to God and to speak to ourselves. And the whole confessions is the learning to speak. Yeah. Yeah. Before we can learn to speak truthfully mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Which the creed gives us that ultimate truth. The promise.
Speaker 0 00:18:09 Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:18:10 Yeah. Culture misshapes us into a misspoken, uh, speaking. So we learn to speak about God falsely, we learn to speak about ourselves falsely. Yeah. Uh, we begin somewhat disordered, but then when we go to school and we learn about business, and we learn about the ways of the world, we just fall even more deeply. Um, so I, I think Augustine really has a beautiful sense that neither Right. On our own. And then the, the way that the culture misshapes us, and the irony is, I think many people have a sense for, at least today, the way that they we're somehow caught within something that we can't quite get out
Speaker 0 00:18:50 Of.
Speaker 2 00:18:50 Right. And, and I think Augustine had a great, had had a great sense for that.
Speaker 0 00:18:55 Well, that's a good way of putting it, you know, the sense of being trapped mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that suffuses the early books of the confessions. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Both as a young man there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, in, in his studies. And then later when he goes off to Carthage in book three for an education, he gets trapped in what he calls mannequin and bird lime.
Speaker 2 00:19:13 Yes. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:19:13 Yeah. Uh, the sense of, of being adrift and not knowing how to get out. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:17 And, and even that sense of the Manne keys, uh, that, you know, it's not just being spiritual isn't intrinsically good, being religious isn't intrinsically good. It's very, it can be even harder if you end up adopting a false religion. Right. That's gonna, you know, uh, so what, what are some, what are a couple maybe just, you know, in a, in brief, a couple things that lead him out of that trap, right? Yeah. And home. Sure. Ultimately, uh, to the Catholic faith.
Speaker 0 00:19:45 Well, Augustine was ripe picking for the mannequin. Right. He's young, bright, eager for truth, desperate for truth. Yeah. And they constantly hold out that they have some kind of secret teaching that they're going to relate to him. And so when he's a student in Carthage, uh, very precocious young man, he's really on his way, uh, he gets stuck with them. Right. And he, he describes it like, like I said, as being kind of trapped in bird line for nine long years. He was with them. Um, and, and getting out extricating himself from that was, was a very difficult process. And really, it's, it's the workings of grace, but the secondary causes through which this, this worked, God's liberating effects, um, are his really his encounter with Ambrose, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the great preacher from Milan, Augustan tells us that he went to go hear Ambrose preach.
Speaker 0 00:20:30 Right? Here is Augustine, a budding reor arose, is known as a consummate rhetorician. Uh, perhaps he see, sees a certain kinship admiration, certainly for Ambrose. So he goes to the cathedral and hears him preach. And he says he was blown away, not just by how he spoke, but by what he said. Right. And that, that kind of, I, I think, uh, gripped Augustine and made him th rethink much of what the mannequins had told him, uh, about the Catholic faith, that it, that it was superstitious simple. That it imagined God to be consigned to a body. That, that the creation was the result of an evil demi urge. That our, our redemption is really God taking us out of the physical cosmos up to this luminous spiritual realm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> manic Ambrose taught Augustine to see, uh, the world, we could say in a participatory way. Right. That,
Speaker 2 00:21:22 Say more what does participation mean there?
Speaker 0 00:21:25 Well, that the realm of spirit, uh, or the mannequin terms of light Yeah. Is very much related to this order that the good God created it mm-hmm. <affirmative> that he's present in it, animating it. Yeah. Uh, filling it with his own life and being mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and he doesn't intend to pull us up out of and away from this world mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but to redeem us in it and through it, that God himself took on a body mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it continues in the sacramental economy to extend himself in corporeal, physical, tangible, tactile means mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, so
Speaker 2 00:21:54 You kind of avoid this dualism of spirit and matter. Right. That, or of kind of somehow a good God and a bad God. These sorts of false views of the manatees too, Eddie, that God is good creator, created us both spirit and matter precisely. And therefore, um, if our Spirit and matter fall, then God redeems us, um, right. By becoming incarnate and then creating, recreating us. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 0 00:22:21 And so Ambrose allowed him Augustan to see the kind of intellectual truth of this Yeah. That this made sense. Um, surely Ambrose availed himself of, of what Augusta was familiar with mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and with some of the kind of platonic texts, which also have this type of participatory vision of reality, people like Platanus, um, where Augustan was in Milan with Ambrose, there was a whole kind of, we could say a study circle of, uh mm-hmm. Christian platonists. Yeah. And these allowed Augustine to think differently about the created order, uh, and again, the goodness of the material order. Mm-hmm. And that it's precisely in matter that God communicates spiritual truth.
Speaker 2 00:22:57 Yeah. That's really beautiful. And it is, I always think it's fascinating that Augustine, uh, in some ways in Book seven, has an intellectual conversion where he begins to be able to see that his understanding of God as somehow kind of this lum luminous material like, I don't know, put like this, this material light suffusing the universe, uh, was, was really false, and that God actually is just being itself. Right. Who communicates to all things being, so whatever being they have, they receive from God, he comes up with this understanding to be able to believe that God as the creator Yeah. And this intellectual conversion is both necessary and not enough. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I think that says so much about really us is that we, you know, we, we have to have some sense that our, our intellects have to change their understanding of the world and of God in order for us to convert. Yeah. Right. We have to, um, we can't believe in something in a way that if we think it is false. Right. Uh, so we need to have this intellectual conversion, this conversion, but the inte intellectual conversion is not enough. So, uh, we're not gonna, I, I wanna shift into some other stuff, but could you just maybe say a word or two about Augustine's, you know, how it deepens into a moral conversion and his understanding of the need for grace?
Speaker 0 00:24:13 Sure, sure. Well, you mentioned Book seven Guston's Intellectual Conversion. Yes. And that's exactly right. Uh, it's especially a new understanding about the nature of God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> as a spiritual being who's yet present to all things. Uh, and then also coming to terms with the nature of evil. Right. That evil is in fact, uh, not some kind of perennial reality, thick ontological reality that's at war with God, but a lack of being a privation of being a privation of the good. So, but exactly as you say that, that's not quite sufficient coming to see the truth of the Christian faith being led, we could say to the very doorsteps of the church, uh, is not yet to enter into the church. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Book eight is the Moral Conversion mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it's such a study. In contrast, those two books, book seven and book eight mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:24:58 <affirmative> book seven is very much, uh, it's introspective, it's isolated, it's Augustine's own intellectual conversion. You know, Platina speaks of the ascent of the alone to the alone. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> book eight is very different. Right. Book eight is rife with other people. Right. All these other examples of conversion. So Augustine's story of his own moral conversion is nested like one of those Russian dolls mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the story of multiple other conversions. Yeah. Um, Victor Aus, Anthony of the desert, the court chairs of t Trier, many others, stories of other people who've tried to live the moral life mm-hmm. And by grace can do so. Right. And so that's a story of the saints, isn't it? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he's kind of exemplar that we can look up to and say, no, grace really does change the human person. Yeah. Um, and that's, uh, really what leads to the climactic scene there of Guston's moral conversion, right. When the personified lady continents hold out her hands, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and points to all these other exemplar young men, young women, boys and girls, old men and old women, all of those who've been able to live a new life by grace. So I think that's a wonderful study in contrast book seven and book eight.
Speaker 2 00:26:02 Well, that's, uh, so well put, let's, um, let's, uh, take a break and, uh, when we come back, uh, let's, uh, dive into a couple of other big, uh, themes within Augustine and maybe a couple of other of his works as well. I, I do want to, uh, ask a little bit about, you know, his understanding of original sin mm-hmm. <affirmative> and how he felt like this was really necessary to actually maintain the good news of the gospel. Sure.
Speaker 0 00:26:27 Look
Speaker 2 00:26:28 Forward, forward to talking about that with you.
Speaker 0 00:26:29 Very good. Thank you.
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Speaker 2 00:27:03 Welcome back to the Catholic Theology Show. Today we have Dr. Gerald Bosma, a professor of theology at Avamar University. And, uh, we're discussing, uh, Augustine, uh, and, uh, Dr. Bosma teaches a class on Augustine and has written on Augustine many, uh, many different publications. Uh, so we're just, anyway, kind of, uh, just really enjoying, uh, this opportunity to learn more about really one of the great, uh, saints and teachers of the faith. And so I raised this question that I think Augustine is somewhat known for, is helping us to see the doctrine of original sin. Uh, and so maybe you could say a little bit about how did he come about articulating this, right. Uh, it doesn't begin with him, but how does he come about articulating, uh, this reality? And maybe, uh, tell us a little bit about Right. Augustine's not just thinking of these things on his own Right. He's in the midst of, uh, a lot of, there are a lot of controversies going on during his day. Sure. Could you say a word about that?
Speaker 0 00:28:06 Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, original sin, I think the first thing to say is not a very popular opinion today. Yes. We don't, we don't, we usually think about a newborn baby, for example mm-hmm. <affirmative> as anything wrong, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they come, they come to the world innocent. Yes. And then later, perhaps they're corrupted uhhuh, right? They're, yes. They hear their brothers fighting, or their parents arguing. Someone pushes them on the playground. Mm-hmm. They think that's how I have to respond. But initially, no. Mm mm-hmm. <affirmative>, well, Augustine says, no, it goes back before that. Right? Yeah. He takes very literally, uh, Psalm 51 in sin. Did my mother conceive me? Yeah. So, at the moment of conception, something goes awry mm-hmm. <affirmative> and goes awry with us as, as rational beings. That is to say in our intellect and our will Yeah. Our intellect and will are mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:28:47 <affirmative>, fundamentally, there's a, there's a disorder there mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. They don't incline to truth perfectly or to the highest good, perfectly. Yeah. Right. We're often confused about what's true, and we often love lower goods around the highest good. And so part of the, of conversion, of the new life of grace is having a reorientation of our intellects and our will. Yeah. Right. And it, Augustine's confessions is really a story of that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that's why the confessions was so controversial when it first came out. One of the early readers <inaudible>, he read this and thought, oh no, this is hopelessly fatalistic. Right. Uh, that we are born with some kind of, uh, problem, deep seated problem with our intellect, and will, well, then no one would ever strive for the virtuous life. Right. Plaus. He, he, he read the confessions and said, well, no, if, if our Lord says be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect, surely that must be possible.
Speaker 0 00:29:40 God would not command us to do something of which we're incapable. Right. Um, well, I guess I would agree, but it's really grace that makes us capable. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's the confessions that set off the firestorm that later became known as the pla in controversy. Right. And Plagio, Julian of Alonna and his associates thought, first of all, no. That, that original sin, again, is a fatalistic doctrine that we, we kind of have not so much a fallen will, but bad examples. And so we have to turn to the good example, which is Christ. Yes. That remains extrinsic Christ. We have to look to him as a model, follow him, and then we can be converted. Yeah. Augustine's account of grace is much more inside. Yeah. It's inward. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's really deep within our knowing and loving that are turned around,
Speaker 2 00:30:27 Uh, to us. Yeah. And, and I think, uh, one of the things that Augustine puts his finger on, cuz up until now, it might be, you know, people might be thinking, you know, maybe paganism isn't so bad. Uh, but ultimately is that if we could follow a good example, why did Jesus have to die on the cross? Yeah. Right. Why did the word have to become incarnate and then have to die somehow? Why is the death of Christ, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, how does that become the means of our right redemption of our salvation? And that's an indication that merely a good example would not be enough. There's something right in our, in our very will that needs to be kind of sacrificed on the cross and then reborn in the resurrection. Right.
Speaker 0 00:31:22 Right, right. And you know, when he's, when he's reading, uh, the Confessions paulis, and he, he's thinking about this, and Augustine's line in there that really vexed him is command what you will and will what you command. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in terms of our, our moral change. What Augustan insists on is the priority of grace.
Speaker 2 00:31:41 Right?
Speaker 0 00:31:41 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that, that grace comes before, before we seek God. He seeks us as, as Paul says, right. While we were enemies of God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Christ loved us and died for us. Yeah. And so Grace has to come before and change us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> grab our hearts, elicit our desires, turn them to be towards him himself. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then Grace walks with us, accompanies with us mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there's never something that, you know, I've been changed and now I'm doing it. No, grace comes along. And even at the end, you know, if by the grace of God we, we merit some type of reward, Augustine would say, is immortal words grace. Sorry. Merit is God crowning his own gifts. Yeah. Merit is God crowning his own gifts. So prevet, accompany and perfective grace, uh, there's nothing of which, when I come to the pearl gates, I can pat myself on my back, you know, where's my crown? No, it's, it's always a gift. And the giftedness of existence of nature and of grace is, I think the place to start when thinking about Augustine Theology of Grace.
Speaker 2 00:32:37 That, that is, that is so beautiful. Uh, and, and I think in some ways, right. Uh, Augustine's kind of, um, I dunno if it's official name, is it official, the Doctor of Grace? That's right. Yes. I think that's how he's known in the, certainly in the Middle Ages and in the, and in continuing in the church, the Doctor of Grace that we understand salvation. Right. Is that it's not just that salvation is a gift, but create everything is a gift from God. Uh, and I just wanted to hear your thoughts about this. So it seems to me there's two things at work here in his understanding of, of, of original sin. Partly what he is, what what he's getting at is, uh, is that there's like, there's a fundamental flaw in us, uh, and in the whole world that we're, that's like, it's all ultimately when we recognize that original sin, that original wound, that original, you know, I don't know, off balance.
Speaker 2 00:33:34 And we kind of begin to recognize, no wonder all of our attempts, always my attempts at virtue, my attempts at having a good family, my attempts at trying to organize a society, all of our attempts always fail. It's kind of a relief to recognize that, oh, we, we, we, we are, it's kinda like your car. You, you know, when you finally realize your car's out of alignment, <laugh>, it's kind of great because Oh, yeah. But, but Augusta never adopts that view apart from the good news of Jesus Christ. Precisely. Yeah. So it's never kind of saying, oh, your car's out of alignment, sorry, it's your car's out of alignment and I can fix it. Yeah. Your will's out of linemen. It's curved in on itself as he described. It's right in Carta and say, right. It's, it's, we're made to look at God and to kind of wonder at the beauty of others, and even the beauty of our own creation. But instead we turn in on ourselves and see my own ego at the center of the world, and Right. So you're never separating in a certain sense the diagnosis from the cure. Right. And right. The CaTECH, oh, no, please no say the catechism is that idea that Right. The original sin is just the reverse side of the good news of Jesus Christ. Like Right. It's when we hear the gospel, it's almost like that's when we realized, oh, oh, I needed to be redeemed. Oh, no wonder life has been so hard.
Speaker 0 00:34:55 And this is why he thought, you know, paus was putting a stake in the heart of the gospel.
Speaker 2 00:35:00 Mm.
Speaker 0 00:35:00 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, when you first hear Pagus preach, and he was a great preacher. Yeah. He sounds very, very hopeful, very optimistic. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Uh, and, and it was precisely this kind of buoyant optimism mm-hmm. <affirmative> that, that I think attracted him as a preacher. Yeah. He would appeal to, to kind of people's better instincts, kinda like a coach of elite athletes trying to live up to their full potential. Yeah. Right. The kind of nature native reserves of, of moral greatness that lie deep within. He was trying to pull that out. Right. And he thought, well, Augustine's teaching an original sin that's destructive of people's effort, but exactly as you say, that's not the case. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because Pagus wasn't giving an accurate account of our, our existence after the fall. Right. Um, that, that, again, the moral life, uh, our lives, uh, whether ourselves, each other, our family, society, there's always a bug in the system. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:35:51 <affirmative>. Yeah. And, and it's, it's fundamentally and necessity, and it's fundamentally pride. Right. In some part, it's, it's that pride that I, that I take myself at as the center of the universe instead of receiving Right. Right. Everything from God. So, um, that's really, so there's sometimes I think when people set up, or when people talk about Augustine, they'll talk about kind of his early controversy with the manatees, right. Uh, in which he kind of defends the goodness of creation and the, and the wisdom of revelation. Right. Um, right. The goodness of God who overcomes evil. Right. Uh, and then maybe, uh, you talked about it, the later controversy with Plaus, um, and this sense of kind of, no, we, um, yes, creation is good, but it's not that good. Right. We need grace. Don't forget the element that Jesus had to die on the cross. Right. And send his spirit so that we could have new life. Uh, there's another, uh, big controversy for which he's known Right. With the, the donuts.
Speaker 0 00:36:48 Sure.
Speaker 2 00:36:49 So would you say a little bit about that, and maybe how do you kind of introduce that into your course?
Speaker 0 00:36:54 Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, controversy is the right word. And Augustine was a controversialist. Right. He was a, he was a ignatious type of person. Right. He is a type that did his best thinking in the, in the fires of controversy. That's where he forged his real thinking. Yeah. Um, and you know, that's, you kind of sometimes think about maybe some more Pacific, uh, medieval theologians. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, gusan is not, does not write in that, in that world. Right. Um, so you mentioned the mannequins initially. Yes. Uh, upon his conversion. The first, I would say decade in which he's doing serious writing, it's always against the mannequins. Yeah. Consider that he writes five times on the first two chapters of Genesis, affirming the goodness of the created order, um, that God is present in animating it, that it becomes the vehicle of our redemption.
Speaker 2 00:37:42 Oh, yeah. The goodness of church.
Speaker 0 00:37:43 Part of that spirit through too. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Um, the unity of the old New Testament mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. All this was, uh, forged against the mannequin. Later he comes back to Africa, and that's really where he comes upon a scene that's already quite old in Africa, namely the Donat controversy. Right. Uh, the Donis were a sectarian group, uh, in North Africa, but in many places, the majority in North Africa. Right. So if you went into every large town mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there would be two cathedrals, a donat, his cathedral, and a Catholic cathedral. Right. Donat, hiss bishop and a Catholic bishop. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, there were more powerful, perhaps in the kinda remote areas. And the major cities, which were under strong Roman presence would be more Catholic. But it, it appealed to kind of the rebellious spirit, you might say, of African sensibilities. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:38:30 <affirmative>, they called the Catholic church, the church, trans mare, the church over the sea, which is always being kind of controlled by imperial forces, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Augustine, uh, having spent so much time in Italy, uh, saw that no, for the church to be Catholic, to be universal of the whole, it couldn't simply be in Africa. Right? Yeah. And so somehow the African church would have to be in communion with the rest of the world. Um, so he comes back with that, we could say more universal vision of the church, and immediately he's thrown into the controversies, uh, in North Africa. Uh, and so much of the 35 years that he spends in North Africa is responding to the Donat. Um, he does so through public debates, through writings, through letters, in fact, teaching rhyming poems to his congregants. Um, but both through, we could say carrot and stick, uh, he attempted to convince the donit of, uh, Catholic claims, of necessity of the universal church.
Speaker 2 00:39:31 Okay. Uh, so really beginning with the need for the Catholic Catholic meaning universal. Right.
Speaker 0 00:39:36 And, and that it really inflected itself in two ways. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, both Augustine sacramental theology, Uhhuh and his theology of the church, his ecclesiology. Okay. Right. So in terms of the sacraments, uh, the dawn just held that only their particular little convents had authentic sacraments. Right. All others were invalid. Um, and part of this really goes back to the legacy of how Donatism came to be. Right At the end of the Dian persecutions, uh, some Catholic bishops had handed over the sacred items, sacred books, sacred vessels, and these became known as Tar Torres from handing over, oh, sacred Traders, right. Traders, literally mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right after the kinda dust settled, persecutions ended, some of these, including bishops, wanted their positions back. They, they, they handed on the sacred items. Now they said, we wanna be bishops again. Others said, no, you, you're out now. In fact, if you want to come back in, you have to be rebaptized and re ordained.
Speaker 0 00:40:28 Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so that became the Donna's position. Right. Re baptism before you can have all the other sacraments. Uh, the Catholics already before Augustine held, no baptism has, uh, an indelible mark on the soul. You're forever baptized. What you need to do is convert, do penance, enter back into a regular sacramental life of the church. But this became, I would say, a fault line in North Africa. Both sides appealing to the great African Bishop Cyprian. And so that's one thing that Augustan does when he comes back, uh, to Africa, is he, he appeals especially to Cyprian. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the older African theology in emphasizing that baptism, I is a once for all thing. Right. You're forever mm-hmm. <affirmative> part of, of, of the church, uh, he would often avail himself of the image of Roman soldiers who deserted when they came back. What they would look for is whether they had the, the nus, the kind of tattoo, the stamp on their right hand. If they did, they were still members of the Roman army. They didn't have to be rebranded, you could say. Okay. So too, with those who had fallen away from the church. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:41:32 Yeah. I mean, this really then gets expressed in the teaching of the church that the sacraments work. Right. Exeto. Right. Yeah. From the work having been worked, they work from the nature of the sacraments, which was ultimately the promise of Christ. Cuz it's the power of Christ in the sacraments. Right. And, uh, I think all of us have a kind of, uh, a native sympathy for wanting holy priests. Sure. Holy bishops. Uh, right. It would be more fun to go to mass with a saint than to go to, uh, or a dynamic preacher than to go to mass with a, you know, lukewarm priest. Right. Sure, sure. All these things are true in some ways. And yet on the other hand, if we think that it's the priest who happens to be more dynamic or perhaps holier, that it's the priest who's confecting the Eucharist, we're really confused. Right. And I think Augustine really put his finger at that, that it's Christ who baptizes. Right. Right. It's Christ who celebrates the Eucharist. And, uh, and, you know, we would, it would really be very hard for us to figure out like, who baptized us? Did they ever sin? When did they sin? Did they sin later? How do we know how holy they
Speaker 0 00:42:47 Were? Right. And this kinda succession, these lines of holiness were so important to the Dons.
Speaker 2 00:42:51 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:42:52 And little aside here, when you think about Augustan telling his own story of baptism, right. In the confessions mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you might think he'd introduce it with trumpets. Cause that's kinda the high watermark of the confessions. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But he says it, you know, in one Latin word, we were baptized. He doesn't go into it much. And you might say, why? Well, I think he doesn't wanna play to the donat. He was of course, baptized by a very famous, very holy bishop Ambrose. Yeah. But he doesn't even mention that. Right. He just says, we were baptized. Yeah. And I think that's a great example of a Augustine's insistence, uh, precisely as you say that it's not the holiness of the minister. Yeah. That constitutes the validity of the sacrament mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, but it's Christ who works through these, uh, instruments. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:32 Could you, um, just say a little bit about, you know, tell us a little bit about your own story. Um, how did you get interested in reading Augusta? How'd you get interested in studying theology? Um, or you're a convert, uh, to the Catholic church, maybe, you know, in, in a couple minutes. Uh, could you tell us a little bit about your story?
Speaker 0 00:43:50 Yeah. I grew up in a wonderful Christian family, um, in which theology was very important. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, in fact, my dad is a theologian, so I think I came by it, honestly. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:43:57 Yeah. Oh, wonderful. Uh, theologian, who's a, you know, written a lot of great books on the fathers. He has Yeah. And, uh, their, their kind of love of liturgy, love of scripture.
Speaker 0 00:44:07 Yeah. Right. Um, and so I studied theology as an undergraduate. Um, I took a number of theology classes from a, a local Catholic college, which, uh, deeply, uh, informed me and wanted me, kind of compelled me, I think, to want to think more about studying theology. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I took some time teaching and then decided, no, I'm gonna go on for graduate studies. And actually came to Avi Maria University Yes. To do a master's in theology. And I wrote my thesis on, uh, a 20th century theologian by the name of Henry Deach Deach. And particularly I was interested in his theology of the church Right. On the unity of the church. And as I was reading through Deach Corpus, I noticed Augustine is everywhere. Yeah. And I was speaking with my, uh, my, I'll never forget this, speaking with my director, uh, professor Matthew Levering, who many of you know Yes. Wonderful person. He said, well, maybe you should just go right to the source, do a PhD on Augustine. And I thought, well, maybe I'll do that <laugh>. And, uh, yeah, he put me in contact with, uh, various Augustine people, and they ended up going to University of Durham in England to study Augustine with, uh, professor Lewis Ays there. And so that's, uh, kind of my introduction, you could say to scholarly life. Okay. Of of Augustine.
Speaker 2 00:45:17 Yeah. And, and what was your, now you were with more, uh, reformed tradition in which you were raised, and you That's
Speaker 0 00:45:23 Right. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in a reformed, Dutch reformed, uh, family. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, a wonderful community. And, um, I would say quite a long period of kind of discernment mm-hmm. <affirmative> in 2008, I was received into the, into the Catholic church. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:45:37 Well, that's, uh, that's, uh, you know, anyway, uh, very, very beautiful. Yeah. And, uh, thank you for sharing, uh, that with us. So just imagine your students five years down the road, you know, they've taken your class, uh, maybe they're, you know, uh, lawyers. Mm-hmm. Uh, maybe they're, you know, working at a bank. Uh, maybe they're, you know, homemakers, uh, you know, I don't know, maybe they're, uh, running podcasts, <laugh>,
Speaker 0 00:46:04 Uh,
Speaker 2 00:46:04 You know, YouTubers or whatever people are doing these days. What are things that, you know, maybe what are, you know, I don't know, two, three or four things that you want them to carry with them Right. You know, that they would remember about Augustine, uh, from your course.
Speaker 0 00:46:21 Yeah. Well, again, to kind of circle back, I think, you know, Augustine is one of these towering figures mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that really is an under understatement. Um, he kinda defines, we could say Western Catholic theology as kind of giving definitive systematic shape to what, what the Apostle Paul and, and the rest of scripture speak about. And one way I think that's helpful to kinda present that is, is through Augustine's controversy. So we've spoken a bit about his theology of creation, of the goodness of creation, the same God who makes matter, redeems matter Yeah. Reforms us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> also reforms us mm-hmm. <affirmative> his theology of the church. Right. Uh, some of we've spoken about here, his theology of sacraments mm-hmm. <affirmative> of necessity of the unity of the church. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, his theology of, of the Holy Eucharist. Again, he gets that very much through his controversy of theists. And, and the last controversy that really marked Augustin and therefore also marked Western theological tradition is his debates with the pagans. Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> on, on the primacy of grace. Right. And so I would think those kind of three things is theology of grace, theology of the sacraments in the church. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's Theology of Creation. I mean, you could spend a lifetime there. And I intend to <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:47:30 No, that's, that's really beautifully put. Let's, uh, maybe just, uh, kind of as we, uh, begin to close, I'd love to just kinda ask you three other, uh, just kind of maybe more personal questions. Um, sure. What's a book you've been reading lately?
Speaker 0 00:47:45 A book I've been reading lately. That's, that's a good question. I've actually been working a lot on, on something in St. Thomas mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, St. Thomas is very much a, an heir of, uh, of Augustine. And it's, uh, on, on Aquinas's, uh, way of knowing by way of co naturality mm-hmm. <affirmative> by effectivity mm-hmm. <affirmative> by way of experience. And I think in this way, Aquinas is very much, uh, in the legacy, uh, of Augustine.
Speaker 2 00:48:11 So No, that's, that's, that's, that's excellent to hear. Um, yeah. It, I think it is, I think there's kind of a caricature that Augustine has kind of one approach to theology, and Thomas sometimes has another, and that's always struck me as profoundly wrong. We did a conference a number of years ago here at Ave with the Aquinas Center for Theological Renewal called Aquinas, the Augustinian. Oh, good.
Speaker 0 00:48:33 Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:48:33 Yeah. Uh, and tried to show that. Right. I mean, if you look within his quotes after scripture. Yeah. Right. Uh, Augustine, you know, is the most quoted Yeah. Uh, shows up throughout his biblical commentaries, shows up throughout his sacred doctrine. And I really think in some ways, uh, this might be a little bit, uh, I don't know, maybe this is provocative, but I think that because Augustine wrote in controversial terms, he expressed doctrines in the heat of the debate. He was often, I mean, in some ways his culture was a little bit like ours. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was profound, it was pluralistic, it was, uh, secular. It was hostile. There was kind of a thriving, uh, ant, somewhat anti-Christian, but non-Christian way of thinking and, you know, all this sort of stuff. So he's, he's in the midst of all these things. The church as it's responding also in, in, has a lot of conf, you know, there's different divisions within it, the donit, uh, all these different elements.
Speaker 2 00:49:29 And so I think there's also an ability sometimes if you just took Augustine on it's on his own, that you could, I don't know, you could eventually, like, almost you could get confused, uh, because it's so big. I mean, it's funny, uh, you know, St. Peter, and I think it's the second, second, Peter Paul writes so much that people read Paul and get confused. Right. And so they need to read it with the church. Uh, well, in some ways I think that Aquinas kind of is reading Augustine, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> with the wisdom of the church. That's
Speaker 0 00:50:02 Well put. Yeah. No, I very much agree.
Speaker 2 00:50:04 And, and I think that's really beautiful element. It's been great to see you, um, both be, uh, consummate Augustine Scholar and now developing as a scholar of St. Thomas as well, which is great. And you have an upcoming, um, you're going, I think to you have a scholar, what is it, a fellowship in, in Germany to study?
Speaker 0 00:50:22 Yeah, it's started this fall. Yeah. I'll be going to the University of Tobegan. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, continuing some work on St. Thomas. Yeah. So it's an exciting time. No,
Speaker 2 00:50:28 That's really wonderful. So, uh, second question. What's, uh, maybe just one, uh, what's one of a daily practice that you carry out to, you know, to kind of draw closer to God?
Speaker 0 00:50:40 Well, yeah, I would say particularly the Augustine, one thing I try to do daily and, and, and in a spiritual level is take Augusta to prayer. I think the confessions is a prayer. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and so you can read it as such. Yeah. Um, so just reading, you know, a a little paragraph, you know, prayerfully intentionally in a style of kind of alexio Davina, uh, has has been a great prophet to me. Oh. So yeah. Augustine is one of those saint you can easily pray with. That's
Speaker 2 00:51:04 Beautifully put. And, uh, last question. What's a view that you held about God, uh, that you discovered to be false? And what was the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:51:15 Um, yeah, that's, well, that's a very good question. I would say, uh, what, what Augustine has helped me to see, and I don't think I see it perfectly yet, is the way in which we have to affirm. In fact, I know I don't see that perfectly yet, <laugh>, the way in which we have to affirm God's, its radical nearness his imminence his proximity to all things. Yeah. And at the same time, his radical transcendence mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that he's wholly other, that he's not a being in the world. Right. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but, but simply as you mentioned before being itself Yeah. And Augustine's vision of the divine presence as, as imminent on the one hand and wholly transcendent on the other, uh, is in many ways the story of his conversion. But it's something that I'm, I would say in my ongoing conversion Yeah. Trying to discern and, and affirm both sides of that. Yeah. As best we can.
Speaker 2 00:52:01 That's great. One of the professors who, uh, founded the graduate program in theology here, uh, father Matthew Lamb. Yes. Uh, would, uh, I don't know if I ever, he was a, you know, wonderful lover of St. Thomas and, uh, St. Augustine. Uh, but I don't know if he ever gave a homily, which at some point he didn't try to draw on that Augustinian theme of God's imminent presence and also transcendence. But he would always say in whom, you know, quoting, uh, Paul, uh, but, you know, in, in, you know, the one in whom we live and move and have our being. And it, it kind of is, it's, it's, it's just a radically we, we wanna somehow picture thank God as another, somehow not in me, or somehow another thing in the world. Yeah. And it, it is such a powerful way of understanding that God is really at the heart of all existence. Well, thank you so much, uh,
Speaker 0 00:52:55 Gerald. Well, thank you.
Speaker 2 00:52:56 Well, for being on the show. Uh, for listeners who are interested in learning more about Augustine, I would encourage you to listen to a earlier episode, uh, with Dr. John Cini, in which we focus exclusively on the confessions. And, uh, also hopefully we'll be able to have Dr. Bosma again and maybe do a deep dive into some of Augustine's specific works.
Speaker 0 00:53:17 That would be a delight. Excellent. Wonderful. Well, you very much for having me.
Speaker 3 00:53:22 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our enunciation circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
