Speaker 0 00:00:00 Who is Jesus and what does he do for us? It can be put in different ways. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> his person and his work, particularly in Protestant theology, the distinction has been made or in, in Catholic theology, the person again, or the incarnation and the redemption. Who is he God almighty, in the flesh. What does he do for us? He redeems us from sin and death.
Speaker 2 00:00:30 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Dnet, and today I am joined by, uh, professor and, uh, who holds a chair of theology, Dr. Bruce Marshall from the Southern Methodist University. So welcome to the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:47 Thanks so much, Michael. It's a great pleasure to be here and to be back at Ave Maria.
Speaker 2 00:00:51 Well, we're glad to have you here. A couple years ago, uh, you were at Ave Maria, the Aquina Center of For Theological Renewal, uh, awarded you with a Veritas medal in 2019. And, uh, that's really our kind of lifetime achievement award and lifetime contribution to the renewal of Catholic theology.
Speaker 0 00:01:10 I was surprised and, uh, speechless at the, at the great. That was a great honor. And I, well, I, I'm, I'm rarely speechless. My, my family will tell you, but I, I was on that occasion.
Speaker 2 00:01:20 That's great. And, uh, and, and welcome very much. And it was a very well-deserved, um, well, well-deserved honor. And that time, by the way, for that, we had a conference on Thomas Aquinas and the Crisis of Christology. And so I really thought today it would be great to just try to unpack what does Christology mean, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> words and understanding about Jesus Christ mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Christology. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and what is the crisis in some ways that we're mm-hmm. <affirmative> we're in the midst of, and, uh, it's a great, we ended up having a volume published, uh, from that book. And in some ways, really, I think that question, who is Jesus Christ, uh, right. That Jesus says to Peter in Matthew 16. Right. Who do you say that I am? Right. Is really kind of, in some ways, I think has been at the heart of your, uh, theological vocation Yes.
Speaker 2 00:02:10 Of studying and teaching for, you know, so many decades and has really enriched, uh, the church and many students of theology. So, but I'd love to begin maybe with kind of a, just a challenging question mm-hmm. <affirmative> that I think a lot of people kind of resonate with today. Uh, when you see the preaching of Paul and the preaching of the early church as recorded in the scriptures mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. We have this, uh, strong confession that Jesus is Lord. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, one Corinthians 1213. Right. Says, no one can say that Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, Romans 10, nine. Right. Says, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Right. And yet today, I think a lot of people are somewhat nervous about saying and believing that Jesus is Lord. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> people might find it maybe perhaps embarrassing to say that I actually believe that I found definitive truth. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, or they might find it offensive or fear that if they say it, other people are going to take offense. Uh, so, so what would you say to people, uh, how do we somehow understand this kind of the central creed mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the central confession of the New Testament. Jesus is Lord, uh, how do we proclaim it in 2023?
Speaker 0 00:03:34 Well, um, we're not gonna spend the whole podcast on this. I know, <laugh>. So let me try and be as succinct as I can. Uh, first of all, it's very important to remember that the term Lord, uh, which is in Greek curiosity, is a stand in for the divine name in the Greek Old Testament, which was the, uh, basis for the Apostles preaching and in the New Testament. So when you're saying Jesus' Lord, you're saying that the name of God belongs to Jesus. And that's exactly what Paul says right in, in Philippians too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he will re He receive the name above every other name. That's there's only one name. All right? Yes. That's the name of God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's really the, the basic claim here, that Jesus is God himself in the flesh. Now he's the Lord. All right. Now, Lord, for us means something other than that. It also means, uh, and maybe means for most people only being the master, right. Being in control. Yes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:04:37 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:04:37 But what kind of Lord is Jesus? He's the one who came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. So his is a lordship of service, of love unto death. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> for those who do not accept him, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> for tho for the apostles who run away, and for the Jews and the Gentiles who reject him, he goes to the cross. So this is not a lordship of domination, but a lordship of love and of service. And I think that touches on a third really crucial point. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what do we mean by lordship today? I'm my own Lord, right? Yeah. I'm, I'm the one who gets to decide whatever you know about myself and, and often about other people. So it's not really a question of whether you believe in, you know, there are any lords out there <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:05:31 It's who the Lord is. Okay. Um, is it the, the Lord who came not to be served, but to serve? Or is it me, okay. I'm the Lord, and, um, and other people are gonna, are gonna show my, my lordship, right. <laugh> Yes. By serving me and by complying with my wishes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think this is also just one really quick further point, that when we, we speak of the Lordship of Christ, of course, that's a strong way of, of claiming the, the uniqueness and, and the, um, distinctive truth, the, the unique truth of Christianity in regard to other religions. And that obviously in our day raises lots of questions. But here again, I think that remembering that, that the love of Jesus is what makes him the Lord is fundamental. This is, this is not a lordship of conquest, but of proclamation. Proclamation of the cross.
Speaker 2 00:06:26 Yeah. That's, uh, so beautifully put. Uh, and I, I love to the way that when, uh, Paul speaks about this in Romans, he says that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. Right. And so we have both Jesus' Lord, and that he was raised from the dead, that he was crucified and rose again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's really also a proclamation of liberation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that, that, that we live this world under, you know, maybe the specter, the darkness of deaths mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? The woundedness of sin, the woundedness of my own ego, uh, and Right. Jesus is offering a liberation from that. Right. You're right. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it goes not through power. Uh, but as Augustine would say, right. That, you know, Jesus didn't save us through power. He saved us through love. Right, right. And through humility. Right. Uh, so I think that is really kind of a consolation Exactly. That, that can really be discovered and as opposed to kind of, uh, the maybe worldly path of mm-hmm. <affirmative> arrogance. Right.
Speaker 0 00:07:32 So this is a lordship that leads to life through humility, not not to death through conquest. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:07:38 That beautiful.
Speaker 2 00:07:40 That's a very beautifully put. Uh, so, you know, recently you, uh, were asked, uh, by, uh, the Blackwell mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, companion to Catholicism, a new book that's coming out to write the chapter on Christology mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so one that's just wonderful to have you here and to be able to kind of share with our listeners and viewers, uh, so much of your work that you, you know, have tried to condense into this chapter, uh, for this book. But also, I think it's just interesting for, you know, maybe viewers and listeners who kind of wonder what happens, what does an author do when an author gets asked, just write about Christology, just right. Write about Jesus Christ, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how do you, <laugh> how do you begin to organize such a topic? What was your process? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:08:22 Um, though that's a great question. It's, um, hard to write an introductory essay until you've done a lot of other things. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think that, that, I've been a theology professor for almost 40 years now. And so when I get asked to write this essay, I have to think to myself precisely what's really essential here. Not, you know, what do I wanna say? Or what, what's my own special idea that I think is really crucial? Yeah. They said 6,500 words. I went a little over <laugh>, but 6,500 words mm-hmm. <affirmative> Christology. So, what's really essential is, I think, fundamentally two things. Who is Jesus or in a form of a question, who is Jesus and what does he do for us? It can be put in different ways. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> his person and his work. That's a, a one way that, uh, particularly mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:09:17 In Protestant theology, the distinction has been made, or in, in Catholic theology, the, the person again, or the incarnation and the redemption. Okay? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, uh, who is he? He's god almighty in the flesh. What does he do for us? He redeems us from sin and death. So this, you know, brief essay, which I spent a lot of time on, I mean, it's, it wasn't real long, but I, I put many hours into it cuz I, you know, you feel like every word counts, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and every sentence counts, and you don't want anything to be wasted. Uh, so I just, you know, said, we're gonna just do two things here. Who is Jesus and what does he do for us?
Speaker 2 00:09:57 Wow. That's, uh, that's, it is really kind of fascinating that it's hard. It's the, the idea that Right, right. His who he is and what he does are, are kind of like, they're the, you know, I don't know. They're like, it's the inseparable part of Right. The centrality of Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Uh, and that in some ways you could think about theology also sometimes goes astray. Maybe when it only focuses on one of those. Right. Right. As it, you know, that merely focusing about who he is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> merely focusing about what he does that mm-hmm. <affirmative> with the eyes of faith. We see these as one. And it's also interesting that if you, you know, think about the Niacine creed, which is actually, you know, the sine politan creed. Right. Uh, that was revised slightly from 2000, or sorry, 3 25 to 3 81 every right. Uh, that Catholics profess every, every Sunday, Sunday mass, and many other mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, some Protestant traditions can, uh, some Protestant
Speaker 0 00:10:50 Traditions accept,
Speaker 2 00:10:51 Uh, you know, on a regular basis that it itself does this. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it says in decree, right. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son mm-hmm. <affirmative> his identity, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> God from God, light from light, true God from true God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, begotten, not made, all of these are his identity. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> who he is, and then can see about the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> suffered under a punched pilot, crucified, died, and was buried. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right on the third day, rose again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's all of a sudden now we're telling a story. Right. And it's this kind of, and, and, you know, the, the creed there goes back to the apostles creed mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which shows up in the second century. Right. These, so, like very early on mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the proclamation in some ways is that Jesus is Lord and rose from the dead. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And it's, so this later cradle formulation, even though it's much more elaborate mm-hmm. <affirmative> over years kind of goes back again to that initial confession that we see mm-hmm. <affirmative> already written about in Paul mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So just kind of fascinating, you know, even before we begin to talk more about what he says, can you say anything more just about kind of, in some ways Right. The uniqueness of Jesus, simply because, you know, we approach him in this twofold manner.
Speaker 0 00:12:03 Let me make sure I'm an answering your question. So if I get off on a track, it's not what, what interests you, just let me know. No worries. We'll get on a different track. So the uniqueness of Jesus, first of all, is that he is Lord, which the, the creed and the, the Catholic tradition unfolds by saying he is true God and true man. Okay. And as you put it, the creed tells a story that begins in eternity with Yes. With the coming forth a generation as a slightly more technical term of the, of the Son of God or the word of God by the Father. The word coming from John one, and then that person, the eternal son of the Father, for us men, and for our salvation being conceived in the womb of the blessed virgin by the Holy Spirit and becoming man.
Speaker 0 00:12:58 So the two things are intimately connected, no other human being is, is begotten of the Father in eternity. Yes. No other human being is that person conceived in the womb of Mary. Each of us as a human being is unique. Okay. Each of us Yes. Is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, an irreducible, divinely created individual who cannot be exchanged or confused or identified with any other individual. And that's true of us as well as of Jesus. But what makes Jesus unique is really spectacular. Right. I mean, it really, really, uh, unusual because Jesus is first and foremost eternally begotten of the Father. He's the one who comes forth in eternity from the Father as the logo has the son of God, who then becomes flesh. And that makes him totally unique, you know, in the, in the universe, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, uh, no other, not just no other human being mm-hmm. Is true God, no other creature. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is or ever will be, who this person is, namely God become flesh.
Speaker 2 00:14:04 Yeah. I think that's so, uh, it's just so fascinating again, to I think sometimes where you, GK Chester mentioned, uh, once is a hundred years ago, but in a kind of somewhat post-Christian society, people are so familiar with Christianity that they think they know what it means. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but they have no idea what it's actually saying. Right. And so, you know, people will often think of Jesus just as another human being, and then kind of, uh, and then totally misunderstand the Christian religion mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but they've never taken a moment to actually consider the uniqueness of Right. This claim that Right. Uh, his death can be so significant, but what he does is related again to who he is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because he is the one who comes from the father mm-hmm. <affirmative> from all eternity. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so that's, uh, anyway, I really appreciate your, you know, summarizing that now kind of a question mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:14:52 <affirmative>, I think that people, you know, and, and you address this again, what does he do as you put it, what he does, and one way or another, it seems to be this has to, uh, center around redemption. Yes. Somehow Jesus' death and his resurrection does something to us. It somehow puts us in a right better relationship with God than we were before. And so, you know, you've obviously taught, I'm sure you know, many, many, you know, thousands of hours around the topic of redemption. Right. Uh, but what would maybe, if, if you could say kind of what's one predominant misunderstanding of redemption and what's one way you found helpful to teach Yeah. And to share with others kind of the, the proper intellectual reception of this mm-hmm. <affirmative> kind of confession mm-hmm. <affirmative> of mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Christ's redem our redemption in Jesus Christ. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:15:48 So there, I, I think actually, uh, several significant misunderstandings of redemption. Yeah. I won't go into, you know, as you say, you asked for one. So I'll give you one. When I was teaching an adult class in my parish, um, oh, close to 20 years ago, not long after we entered the church, one of the people in the class was saying, we have sinned and somebody has to take the hit. Okay? Yes. Somebody has to suffer the penalty. And I think that is something that can be understood in a, in a benign way that can be understood in a scripturally un theologically acceptable and, and resonant way. But, but it can also be a misunderstanding, namely, that God has to punish somebody. Right? Mm-hmm. And that why, why Jesus' death redeems us is because God carries out his punishment on Jesus instead of on us. I think that is a misunderstanding. There is a penal character to, uh, to death itself.
Speaker 2 00:16:50 Yes. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:16:51 But I mean, through sin came death. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Jesus being God incarnate doesn't have to die. So, I mean, that's a, a thought that should give one pause, but he doesn't have to die. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so in, as he says to us, he teaches us in John 10, no one takes my life from me. I lay it down. Okay. I lay it down for you for your salvation. Okay. And I take it up again. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what Jesus does on the cross is indeed accept the penalty of death that we have incurred, but that not, is not in and of itself what's redemptive. What's redemptive is, and I think this is really fundamental that he offers to the Father, he offers to God a gift of infinite value. So when St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, talks about the cross, and he uses the technical term satisfaction, when Christ makes satisfaction for sin on the cross, he doesn't say he pays the penalty.
Speaker 0 00:17:58 What he says is his charity, Christ's human love for the Father, is so complete and so intense that God values it more than he hates sin. Yeah. He that mm-hmm. That, that Jesus gives to God something of such value that for the sake of Jesus offering Yeah. Of Jesus gift to the Father, God will treat us who enter into Christ through baptism as those who have offered this gift, you know, he will forgive us. Yeah. So that to me is a, is really at the heart. There's the, the redemption is such a complicated and, and rich, I mean mm-hmm. <affirmative> beautiful teaching in a sort of ex in a inexhaustible teaching of the faith. Um, but one way of getting at, you know, a good way of looking at it, a not so good way is to contrast love or charity with penalty. Okay? Yeah. There is a penal aspect, but it's not the heart of the matter. The heart of the matter is charity of Christ.
Speaker 2 00:18:59 Right. Jesus's love, ultimately Right. For us and for the Father.
Speaker 0 00:19:04 Right. Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:19:05 Uh, is what makes redemption,
Speaker 0 00:19:08 Is what,
Speaker 2 00:19:08 That is what redeems the human race, human. And then he takes on all of the kind of almo. It's not so much that Right. All of the punishment, all of the natural consequences of our sin, of our sin. Right. Hunger, thirst, paine. Right. Right. Death. Death. Right. Right. And so, uh, instead of thinking about it almost in a human sense mm-hmm. <affirmative> of God being angry and wanting to punish someone mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which seems, seems extrinsic mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Instead, Jesus is really solving the intrinsic problem of human nature, which because of its wound mm-hmm. <affirmative> is fundamentally alienated from God mm-hmm. <affirmative> from one another and from really from ourselves. Yes. And so, right. So Jesus in a certain sense. Right. It's that, you know, it's the offering in love of, of everything that he has Yes. To the Father, which then brings that about into kind of that, that reconciliation, that communion. Right. Which, that when we then Right. Confess with our lips and believe in our hearts and Right. And we are baptized into that death and resurrection. Yeah. Right. Then that, that, that love and communion mm-hmm. <affirmative> that is present in Christ up to the end mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative> then begins to become our mode of Right. Relating to the Father, which in some ways, which is that love we call right sonship. Right,
Speaker 0 00:20:34 Exactly. Right. The love of true charity. Right. Of self-giving, uh, to love for God and, and others. Um, there's a verse I use in the essay that you, you know, we began with for the, for the Blackwell companion to talk about this, uh, from Romans five, uh, Romans five, eight, God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners mm-hmm. <affirmative> Christ died for us. Yeah. Um, mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So Christ's death is not first and foremost God's punishment of anybody, but his god's love for us. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and how does God love us by becoming flesh and Yeah. In his flesh, offering up his own divine and human reality for our salvation. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:21:24 So Aquinas was pretty smart then by putting the focus on charity. Right, right. Absolutely. Because you see in Romans five, eight, God shows his love for us, I think in what, first John four 10 mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. It's not that we loved God, but God loved us first and then, and
Speaker 0 00:21:39 Gave his son as an offering for our sin, appreciation sin. Yeah. Right. Hill. Right.
Speaker 2 00:21:43 And then John three 16. Right. Very famously, at least at, you know, US football games, <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:21:48 Right,
Speaker 2 00:21:48 Right, right. But you know, God, for God's so loved the world,
Speaker 0 00:21:53 They gave his only son Son. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:21:54 Exactly. That I'll believe in him should not perish, but I eternal life. So it's kind of right there in the heart of the gospel proclamation. Uh, but maybe at times we kind of reinterpret that in, in, in a way that over emphasizes the punishment. Yeah. And then that can kind of like, well, I mean, it's nice that Jesus got punished for me, but I'm still kind of afraid of God. That's right. You know, I'm not, it's not just a healthy fear, it's actually like terror.
Speaker 0 00:22:20 Yeah. Right. And that seems fear.
Speaker 2 00:22:23 That's exactly what Jesus is trying to overcome. Exactly. Is the fact that we are, we have to stop being like Adam and Eve Exactly. You know, hiding from God because we are afraid of him, but we Exactly. We have to recognize that. Right. His love for us is much greater. Exactly.
Speaker 0 00:22:38 I no longer call you servants, but friends. Yeah. Or I've told you everything I've heard from the Father. I mean that Jesus invites us into his own intimacy with the Father, but for us to enter that there has to be a, an overcoming of our mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, our problem, I mean, of our, of our brokenness. Of our woundedness, as you put it earlier. And so that's the redemptive aspect, but the redemption, the goal of the redemption is that, that philio, that childlike, uh, love for the Father that, that we have in Jesus himself. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:11 And, and we began the episode, you mentioned that one of the problems with confessing that Jesus's Lord, is that fundamentally we live our lives, uh, certainly in a state of sin Yeah. As, uh, I am Lord. Yeah. Right. And so that kind of is what the love of Christ can do, is it can, you know, like mere moral effort mm-hmm. <affirmative> mere willpower will not avail Right. To deone my ego.
Speaker 0 00:23:38 There you are.
Speaker 2 00:23:39 Right. And so that in a certain sense is what exactly is what Jesus does. And that's why the, that's why in a way, the death matters. Right. Because my ego has to
Speaker 0 00:23:49 Die. Has to die. Right. Yeah. I haven't been crucified with Christ, um, since Paul. Right. And, um, it is no longer I who live mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that that self has been sain. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:24:00 No longer I who live, but Christ
Speaker 0 00:24:01 Christ lives in me. Lives
Speaker 2 00:24:02 In me. So that exactly,
Speaker 0 00:24:03 Uh,
Speaker 2 00:24:04 That's no. So beautifully put. Well, let's, we're, we're gonna take a quick break and when we get back, I'd love to hear and maybe have our, our listeners and viewers hear a little bit about your story. How'd you get interested in studying theology and really focusing on this question of the mystery of the person of Jesus Christ. Happy
Speaker 0 00:24:19 To do that.
Speaker 3 00:24:27 You are listening to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. If you'd like to support our mission, we invite you to prayerfully consider joining our Annunciation Circle, a monthly giving program aimed at supporting our staff, faculty, and Catholic faith formation. You can visit
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Speaker 2 00:24:53 Welcome back to the show. And today, um, my guest is Dr. Bruce Marshall, uh, who holds a chair in theology at the Southern Methodist University in Texas. And, uh, we've been discussing Christology, who is Jesus Christ, and what does he do Right. Why has, why in a certain sense has he changed mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? You know, the world mm-hmm. <affirmative>, why is it that his redemption changes us? Who is he mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so anyway, it's been really wonderful to talk with you about that. And I just wanted to maybe, you know, ask you a little bit about how did you get interested in studying theology mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, how did you end up coming to the Catholic church? Right, right.
Speaker 0 00:25:33 Yeah, no, thanks for, uh, for asking about that, Michael. Um, I'm a maybe a little unusual, uh, in that, um, as I like to tell my students, um, when they ask, um, I've been an, a committed atheist, a committed Protestant, and a committed Catholic all in one lifetime, <laugh>. Um, so I grew up in a, in a non-religious, uh, home, um, somewhat unusually for my generation. It's not unusual anymore. But, um, never went to church, uh, at all. I mean, uh, throughout my, my growing up years until I went away to college and it was converted to the faith in college, um, in a combination both of, of a, of a friend who took me, uh, to church for the first time. Um, and of a class I took actually, which has certainly made, it, made me aware that what you say in class can have a big impact on other human beings.
Speaker 0 00:26:25 Cuz I'm, I'm here now because of things that, uh, that a teacher said in class, you know, uh, who really, it made such an impression on me. He was a Methodist from Georgia, and he, he was talking, this was an introductory course in religion. We talked about Christianity, we talked about Buddhism in particular, those two religions. But it was clear he was a Christian, and he believed these things. And, and he, I, I was incredibly impressed with him intellectually. And, um, and I began to believe, you know, I mean, it was quite, quite a dramatic change in my life. And, and I became, became aware that I had a kind of vocation to study theology. I mean, when I look back on it now, it's, it's miraculous. I mean, this all happened in a space of about 10 weeks, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cause we were on this quarter, so this, this, the terms are only 10 weeks.
Speaker 0 00:27:10 So when I went in that fall, I was a music major and wanted to play the trombone in the Chicago Symphony. And when I came out in December, I, I said, I'm gonna be a theologian. I wouldn't even even have known what a theologian was 10 weeks before, you know? And so, um, and so I was, I was baptized in Lutheran church as an adult and was, was, um, you know, very serious, uh, you know, Lutheran Christian and, and theologian. But I'd always had a strong, uh, attraction to Catholicism. And so, uh, to make a, a story, I'm, I'm happy to tell, but to make it short for our purposes, uh, my wife and I, uh, my wife had actually been, uh, Sandy had actually been a Protestant minister. Uh, and so she and I together entered the Catholic church with our daughter who was seven at the time, um, in 2005. And I've never seen that as anything other than the fulfillment of my baptismal vocation. Uh, I don't look back on my Lutheran, uh, years with regret or bitterness or anything. Um, oh, I should have been Catholic. No. This is how God took this atheist and made him a Catholic. So, well,
Speaker 2 00:28:16 That's a, that's, that's really a beautiful, uh, story. And, uh, you know, really, uh, you know, blessed to be God indeed. How how wonderful to, um, you know, come home to God the Father. Right, right. You know, uh, through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit, and to discover the richness of that spirits in dwelling mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the full-blown mm-hmm. <affirmative> historical
Speaker 0 00:28:39 Catholic, Catholic church.
Speaker 2 00:28:39 Right. One holy Catholic and apostolic church. Absolutely. Right. What a gift. So, I, I wanted to maybe just look at two different, we were talking a little bit about the redemption, two other, you know, another more, some questions that I think a lot of people have about kind of Jesus' identity, I think. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's like people who think about Jesus' identity. Well, they really don't think about that question, but they're always thinking about that question because they're like, well, was it really hard for Jesus to fast in the desert? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> if he was God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 00:29:08 Well,
Speaker 2 00:29:08 That doesn't seem, was it hard? Did he, was it, did it really hurt on the cross? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if he's God mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, or sometimes maybe in the other direction, which is, you know, in order to maybe overemphasize the humanity mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, Jesus is just as confused as the rest of us. Right. He doesn't really know much what's going on. Right. Some people, right. Uh, this is not the church teaching, by the way, but some people are like, he didn't even know that he was gonna rise
Speaker 0 00:29:31 Until,
Speaker 2 00:29:32 You know, uh,
Speaker 0 00:29:33 Didn't know that he was God. They
Speaker 2 00:29:34 Didn't know he was God. So in some ways, I think people actually struggle with this identity question a lot. Sure.
Speaker 0 00:29:40 Absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:29:41 So it seems to me that maybe there are two kind of key, uh, the church confesses mm-hmm. <affirmative> in her creeds, beginning in the Bible, and received in the creeds and the fathers, and the, you know, Aquinas and the church today. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the idea that Jesus is Right. Two natures and one divine person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So he is the one eternal divine person of the, of the Son. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, who always exists in his divine nature and then assumes to himself mm-hmm. <affirmative> a human nature. Nature. Right. Uh, and therefore has both a fully human nature and a fully divine nature, uh, and one divine person mm-hmm. <affirmative> in whom both nature obsessed.
Speaker 0 00:30:17 Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:30:19 But then you have kind of like two major heresies that begin to show up. And, you know, they percolate around, but in the fourth century mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you have one which is Nestorianism, uh, which is the idea that they're kind of two persons in Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and, you know, and the church responds to that. But could you just say a little bit about what is Nestorianism? Sure. Why might it be attractive, and why? Right. Did the church say that actually, no, this is not attractive, it's destructive of our faith.
Speaker 0 00:30:47 <laugh>. Right. So Nestorius was the, uh, the bishop actually the, the patriarch of Constantinople in, in the, uh, late four twenties. And he preached some sermons saying that Mary is not the mother of God or the Theotokos, the bearer of God, that she is the bearer of Christ the man, but not the bearer of God. And he made an sort of obvious observation, and, but not any less astute for that, for it being obvious. No one gives birth to someone older than herself. Okay. <laugh> <laugh>. So how can Mary give birth to God? Now, Cyril of Alexandria, and I talk about this a little in the essay that you, uh, referred to Cy of Alexandria, Saint Cyril got wind of this. He, he's down in Alexandria in Egypt, and he, he's the impeccable opponent of Nestorius. And his fundamental concern is exactly the one that you articulated, um, when you said what the teaching is, that there are not two sons. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's not a human son and a divine son. Rather there's one son and Lord Jesus Christ, who has our humanity in all of its fullness, but everything that belongs to that humanity, everything that this human being undergoes everything this human being does and undergoes is done and undergone by the eternal son, by God himself, and the person of the Son. And if you don't think that's the case, then you can't think that we are saved in Christ.
Speaker 2 00:32:32 Wow. Say more. Right.
Speaker 0 00:32:33 Say more. Well, because Christ saves us precisely by, and this is a point that Cyril got from Athenasius in the fourth century and really plays up Christ saves us by, if you like, I'll put it in, in non-technical terms, by permeating our humanity with his divinity. Yeah. By deifying our humanity, it remains human. It remains humanity, but he fills it with divinity. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 00:33:06 So this is the, the teaching of deification or demonization that you have, certainly in the Eastern Christian, but also in the Western or Latin Christian tradition. It's in St. Thomas. It's in Augustan. Very strongly. Yeah. And so, what St. C says in a very striking way is the flesh of Christ is life giving. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he makes a direct connection to the Eucharist. The flesh of Christ that we receive, that we touch in the Eucharist is life giving flesh. And so it cannot be that it's simply the flesh of a man, of a human being. He is a human being, but it's the flesh of God. St. Thomas puts it the car de the flesh of God, which we touch, which comes into us in mucus, which gives us life, which is life giving, transforming our mortality, our, our decaying humanity into what has eternal life. So Sir was so adamant, I mean, he was a tough guy. I mean, he didn't, he didn't play, uh, play around, and he was very adamant about, you know, con condemning notorious position, which did happen both in 4 31 at Ephesus and in 4 51 at Caledon. But his, his concern was not as some folks like to suggest, you know, political or he just wanted to get his own way. It was very deeply tied to, you know, belief and redemption through Jesus. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:34:30 Yeah. That if we're gonna live forever with God in heaven, then something about this has to change.
Speaker 0 00:34:37 This, this moral nature has to change,
Speaker 2 00:34:39 Has to change. It has to somehow begin to participate, become shares in the divine nature.
Speaker 0 00:34:42 In the divine nature. Right. Teaches, or St. Paul says in first Corinthians 15, this mortal nature must put on immortality. Yeah. Uh, it can't mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it can't happen. Um, you know, with things the way they are, there has to be a change.
Speaker 2 00:34:57 That's right. And, and in some ways, too, you could think about it as well, if there were two persons in Jesus then who died on the cross, right. Because in some ways, clearly the man, Jesus died on the cross, but did the divinity died, it would be no. Right. But there're two different people that are as, um, right. You know, kind of idea. It'd be like more like a jockey and a rider Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:35:20 <laugh> perfectly
Speaker 2 00:35:21 Together in love, but really separable. Right. So when the horse dies, the jockey Disney, that's not done. Right. Which means then we're not saved because Right. Uh, you know, that that offering was not made by God. Right. Because, you know, if the offering is made by a man, it is beautiful mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. It's beautiful and wonderful. And we could sing songs and have poetry about a great Right. About the beauty of human love. Right. Right. But we wouldn't find eternal life. Right. Right. So that's a a really, I also, I think I remember, uh, Cyril comes up with the, um, also the beautiful point, which is that you don't give birth to people that are older than you. True. But you also don't give birth to nature's. Right. You give birth to persons, persons, and that's it. Therefore, Mary gave birth to the person, person of God. Right. The person of the eternal son who now is born. So you have one son with two births. Right.
Speaker 0 00:36:14 Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:36:14 Not two sons. Right. And, and that makes, so we can confess that she is the mother of God. Exactly. As, uh, Catholics, we celebrate on January 1st. Right. Right. Eight days when Jesus gets his name mm-hmm. <affirmative> after being born, when he is circumcised, then we confess Right. That Mary is the mother of God because of who Jesus is. Right. For our salvation. Right.
Speaker 0 00:36:37 And this is very explicitly taught, particularly the Council of Caledon, that Yeah. That, um, he's born eternally of the Father on account of his divinity, and is born in time of the, of the Mary Theotokos Yeah. The Virgin Theotokos on account of his humanity. Um, yeah. By exact, that you've mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you've hit the point that's so fundamental, which is often missed in contemporary, um, and not only contemporary Christology, um, but was Cyril's fundamental point. It's one and the same hypothesis in the Greek and the, uh, in person in, in Latin and English one, the same individual who is both God and man.
Speaker 2 00:37:15 It also means when we come to Jesus, we kind of then are coming to, to God.
Speaker 0 00:37:18 It's like God, which is absolutely beautiful. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:37:21 So, so maybe moving almost kinda like in the other direction. Right. And if we're not gonna split Jesus, we might confuse Jesus in the one which is called, uh, the heresy of like monoism.
Speaker 0 00:37:31 Yes. Right. Right.
Speaker 2 00:37:32 And, uh, monocyte or one nature,
Speaker 0 00:37:35 One nature. That's, yeah. That's Greek for one nature. Right? Yeah. So,
Speaker 2 00:37:38 Um, again, maybe could you say a little bit about what's attractive about Monoism or Yeah. Why might we, or, you know, kind of why might Catholics or Christians fall into the idea that Jesus only has one nature and it's presumably the, the divine
Speaker 0 00:37:54 Nature, divine nature, nature. Right.
Speaker 2 00:37:55 It kind of just absorbs mm-hmm. <affirmative> and kind of, uh, right. You can't even see the human nature anymore mm-hmm. <affirmative> anymore. It's just dissolved into the divine nature. Yeah. And so, right. Why might that be attractive? And why, why, why did the church again say that if, um, I love, by the way, there was, there was a book that was written a number of years ago, and it was called The Cruelty of Heresy. And the idea was that it's not like the church, it's not like heretics are fun, <laugh>, and the church wants to get rid of all the fun. Right. Right. But it's the idea that if you believe heretical teachings about Right. The faith about God mm-hmm. <affirmative> and his plans for us, and Jesus Christ, you will actually harm yourself and other others
Speaker 0 00:38:35 People. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:38:36 Because you will make life harder than it already,
Speaker 0 00:38:38 And then it already is. Right. That's, that's exactly
Speaker 2 00:38:40 Right. So, right. So ultimately, right. Why does you know the church in a certain sense, and eventually like, or why might people be attractive to you? But also why does the church say, wait a second, no, no, no, don't, this would be re this will cause really harm to believers if they hold this view.
Speaker 0 00:38:54 Yeah. So, Nestorius, to go back to him for the moment, for contrast, nestorius, the worry about him is that we don't really have a divine savior. That Jesus is a human being, and the divine person is a separate entity. Okay. Right. And we talked about that. Yes. So the, the attraction then of the Monopoli side view is that absolutely, we have a divine savior mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then it's, it's right in front of us. I mean, this guy raises the dead. You know, this guy walks on water. I mean, uh, you know, this guy created the heavens and the earth. Um, you know, he is the one through whom all things were made. And yeah. So, you know, Colossians one, John one, uh, you know, uh, Ephesians ones these texts that really make a very strong and absolutely crucial, fundamental point about the, uh, the eternal purpose of God in Jesus Christ, and the divinity of Christ.
Speaker 0 00:39:50 That is the, the basis of everything that Christ does in time. Um, that's obviously men offsite say, we're on board, you know, we're, we're good <laugh>. But of course, this is one of the striking things about, about, um, Catholic teaching and then, you know, uh, deviations, whether, you know, in one direction or another, namely that it's usually the same problem with the one as with the other, except from sort of for the opposite reason. So going back to Cyril, the flesh of Christ is life giving. Right. Because it's the flesh of God. The story is sees that, no, it's claims that there's no, no real contact here. The flesh of the person of the who has the flesh and the person who has the divine nature are not the same. Uh, so it's not the flesh of God. So there's no contact, there's no divine saving contact with our perishing, mortal humanity.
Speaker 0 00:40:47 The monocytes say Jesus is God, but they, they don't give him full human reality. And so, again, our humanity, the humanity we have in common with a blessed mother and with every other human being, never actually gets in touch with the logos. It's something less than that. It's something that isn't fully human. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, something that can't die or something that doesn't have to use an early, uh, to us may be strange. You know, monosite idea that the logos is the, the superior part of the, of the human being. Jesus. So Jesus is flesh, uh, human soul, and divine spirit, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> coming together mm-hmm. <affirmative> in one and, and rather than flesh, human soul and human spirit, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So he's, he, he replaces a part of us with his divinity. And the church is very emphatic. If he's not a true human being, we're no more saved by that than if he is a true human being, but not a divine person.
Speaker 2 00:41:48 Right. Yeah. And there's that kind of, I think, uh, one of the lines that gets mentioned. Right. That which is not assumed.
Speaker 0 00:41:54 Not assumed is not healed. Not healed. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:41:55 Right. So if only if the divine Son assumes our full human nature, our full
Speaker 0 00:42:01 Human
Speaker 2 00:42:01 Nature is our full human nature healed, which means both our body and all of its defects. Right. Uh, but also our soul and
Speaker 0 00:42:08 Our spirit, our will all, all of has, he has to assume. Right. Right.
Speaker 2 00:42:12 A full human will and a full human intellect because mm-hmm. <affirmative> what really corrupts man <laugh> Right, of course. Is our rebellious will. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:42:21 Right.
Speaker 2 00:42:21 Exactly. And so, well, that's a, you know, a very beautifully put. So just maybe a, you know, kind of a question. What are some, when you, yeah, again, you've, you've, you've taught so many students, uh, you know, you've, you've, you've been active in, you know, in in, in the church and among theologians mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, what are some of, maybe just what do you like today on the street with the students you teach mm-hmm. <affirmative> with the students, you think about that they're going to go be teaching. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what do you think, in a way are some of the great, you know, challenges to receiving properly and fully and meaningfully in a way the, uh, these kind of faithful credle teachings about Jesus Christ?
Speaker 0 00:43:03 Um, I think there's a kind, uh, that's, there, there are a bunch of things, right. So just to kind of make it clear, this is what I'm gonna say is not the only thing that, that's on the table here. There, there are, there are on a variety of problems. But I think the, the notion, um, that Jesus is true God, that he is God almighty in the flesh, that in coming into contact with him, we come into contact with God himself. That is, and it goes back to something we said a good while earlier, you know, and what mentioning from Chesterton, that's the scandal, that, that even people who wanna be faithful Christians mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, in our own time, often find very hard to deal with mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that Jesus is a, is it's often not, again, it's not necessarily put in theologically sophisticated terms or like, I deny that Jesus is true God.
Speaker 0 00:44:02 It's rather that's just not on the table. It's not what we think about with Jesus is a, is a loving companion, which is true. Jesus is a, is a teacher of the right way to live, which is true. But, you know, before we started our podcast, I was over in the beautiful chapel you have here, um, at adoration and, you know, had to, had to sort of win my way in to fight a place cuz it was crowded. Uh, which is wonderful. And if Jesus is God almighty in the flesh, then when he is bodily present in the Eucharist, I'm staring at the creator of heaven and Earth. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> now in a veiled way as as great him, uh, prayer after mass says, you know, um, I hope to see face to face what I now see through a veil, but still, it's, he is there.
Speaker 0 00:44:52 Yeah. And I think for a lot of us, um, you know, a lot of folks in our contemporary world, that's just too much. You know, I mean, that's just a bridge too far. And it, and, and of course it not, not in, again, I don't think it's primarily the issues are intellectual. I think it's, if that's true, I've gotta give everything, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if I've gotta, I, I can't hold anything back, if that's really true. I mean, if, if Jesus is a nice guy who lived a long time ago, um, you know, a helpful teacher and, and companion, maybe even a companion who's in some way present to us now, you know, I, there are parts of me, you know, in my life that can be sequestered from Jesus. But if Jesus has got Almighty in the flesh, then, you know, in Augustine's beautiful phrase, he's closer to me than I am to myself and mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:45:40 <affirmative>, I can't get away from him and <laugh>, I have to live my whole life. You know, even the secret parts of it, uh, in, in union with him and answerable to him mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, um, uh, and of course then to his church. So maybe that's a big part of it, that if we, you know, if we really confront what, just a straightforward teaching of the church, you know, that Jesus is God almighty in the flesh, um, and always has been the teaching, if we really confront that it causes, it causes a lot of, of problems for folks in our culture, right? Yeah. That, I mean, and one problem it causes unfortunately, you know, um, is that, um, if, if Jesus, God Almighty in the flesh, and Jesus says, um, whoever divorces his wife commits adultery against her, well that's God talking, okay, <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:46:33 So that's not just the opinion of a, of a, of a Jewish guy or Jewish male who lived, you know, 2000 years ago, or, you know, as one <laugh> person who's, um, name I won't give you, but who, who teaches theology. And an Austrian Catholic theology. And an Austrian university said to me, well, I mean, Jesus didn't really know what we know about, you know, human relationships and whatnot, <laugh>. Um, and I said, well, you know, I mean, if you think he's true, God, then you, you have to believe that he does. And that, you know, to put it in slightly more technical terms, that, that he has in his own, uh, soul, a beatific and infused knowledge of everything that can happen to a human being. You know? So if Jesus is true God, then a teaching, you know, like that, which the church has thankfully, you know, stuck too, too thick and thin, that's non-negotiable, right?
Speaker 0 00:47:29 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that's, that's not something that, you know, we can, we can view as time bound or something. So I think that the kinds of things that bother the culture about, uh, I mean to generalize it, to bother the culture about Catholicism, just all hit you like a ton of bricks. You know, when you see that, when you accept or see the mm-hmm. <affirmative> that the claim is that yeah, this Jesus is true God here. So what he says goes, and you're answerable to him. And, um, that's uncomfortable, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean it very, it's particularly uncomfortable, you know, in our world.
Speaker 2 00:48:02 Yeah. It's also one of those things, I think it all depends in a way, uh, Chesterton one time spoke about the creed in his everlasting man. He said, the creed is like a key, it has a definitive shape. Right. And that annoys people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. The shape is somewhat arbitrary because it's historical mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, but he says the shape like a key opens a door mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so he says, the whole question depends upon, if you think you're in a prison, then it's awesome to find a key mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if you think you're drowning in the ocean mm-hmm. <affirmative>, then to find a rock that is firm mm-hmm. <affirmative> that is not like the rest of the ocean. There is something here that is not ocean. And in a way that's kind of what we discover in Jesus Christ. Right. Everything else is it, it, it is, you know, human life is very complicated.
Speaker 2 00:48:46 It's fine to, it's hard to find like the real direction in life. How do you solve political issues? How do you solve familial issues? All these different things. And yet all of a sudden I feel like we're kind of in there, we're treading water, and yet something we stand on is rock. Right. Right. And that to a certain extent is ultimately God and Jesus Christ. Right. Passed on to the church and something that we believe Right. Will Perdue into heaven. So thank you so much for talking about that. I know that's actually the, uh, in this book, uh, Thomas Aquin is in the Christology or crisis of Christology that we published a couple years ago with Sapia Press mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, your last, uh, chapter mm-hmm. <affirmative> is in some ways addresses that beautiful theme. Right. So, and by the way, for, uh, viewers or listeners who are interested, uh, if you go to Catholic University of America press mm-hmm. <affirmative>, C u a press.org, and you use the code, uh, listeners of the Catholic Theology Show may get 20% off. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> by typing in c t Catholic Theology 10 C1 c CT one zero. All right. Uh, so as we're wrapping up, I'd like to ask you three quick questions Yeah. That I try to ask most of my guests. So what's a book you've been reading?
Speaker 0 00:49:55 Um, I've been reading a book my wife gave me for Christmas called Japan 1941, uh, by a Japanese American scholar, um, about what was going on inside the Japanese, um, uh, hierarchy as it were the, uh, political and military structure leading up to Pearl Harbor. It was very fascinating, and you have to know Japanese to write the book. So, um, wow, that's very interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:50:17 That's great. And, uh, you know, among many, uh, could you pick maybe just one daily practice that you, you know, have incorporated, uh, to help find meaning and purpose in life?
Speaker 0 00:50:29 My spiritual director who died, um, uh, in December, um, on the Feast of St. John of the Cross, uh, father Rock Koretsky, who was mm-hmm. <affirmative> Urian monastery in Dallas with a, he was one of the last Hungarians who founded the monastery. He, um, he was a fantastic spiritual director, and not at least because he would tell you the truth. He, he didn't, he didn't, um, he was a deeply compassionate and loving human being, but if you thought you were barking up the wrong tree, he would tell you. And he said, do spiritual reading every day. And he said, if you can't think of what to read, read the, the biblical and, um, second reading of part reading from the Breviary, do that every day. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:51:15 <affirmative> the office of readings.
Speaker 0 00:51:16 Yes. Don't necessarily, he said, if you don't have time to do the whole office, that's fine. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, you know, I'd say, well, I do morning, evening praises. Well, that's great. Do spiritual reading. Wow. And I've found that incredibly helpful. I mean, and I, I I, to the point where I, I feel sort of disoriented, you know, if mm-hmm. <affirmative>, for whatever reason, I had to get up early and I, you know, have to do something and I can't, can't do, do the reading first thing in the morning and, you know, and pray with, you know, the reading and so forth. You know, it takes a half hour, um, to do the reading with care and then, then pray. I feel like I've, I'm, I'm sort of treading above a, you know, 20,000 fathoms and I'm about to sink, you know? I mean, wow. Uh, so that, that's one piece of advice I've beautifully, I've hugely valued,
Speaker 2 00:51:57 Beautifully put. And, uh, just very quickly, if you might, yeah. Uh, this is a very hard, very big question, but maybe you give a, a quick answer is what's one, uh, predominant maybe kind of false view you had about God, and then through your studies and things, what's kind of the truth you discovered?
Speaker 0 00:52:14 Oh, that's very simple. When I was, uh, converting to the faith back in college, as I mentioned, um, I thought God only liked uptight people, you know, who <laugh>, uh, who didn't like me. And I found out, you know, God, God actually loves sinners, uh, of whom I'm the first. So, wow. That's, that was that, that was my conversion in a nutshell.
Speaker 2 00:52:34 Wow. That is, uh, so beautifully put. Uh, and, and what a great place to end on, uh, not only right who Jesus is, but that he teaches us something worth knowing that he loves us, and, and, you know, in, in our very, uh, sinfulness. Right, right. And comes to meet us there. So. Well, Bruce, thank you so much for being on our show. Uh,
Speaker 0 00:52:53 Thanks for having me, Michael. I've really enjoyed it. And
Speaker 2 00:52:55 Again, for our guests, this is Dr. Bruce, um, Marshall, and, uh, we've been talking about Christology, so thank you very much. Thank
Speaker 1 00:53:02 You.
Speaker 3 00:53:04 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
