Speaker 0 00:00:00 There's the body and blood of Christ, and then there's the accidents of the bread and wine. What the doctrine is trying to clarify with transubstantiation is that the accidents of the bread and wine, how it tastes, what texture it has, yeah. These kinds of things that remains. But what is transformed is the substance, what underlies it with the eyes of faith, we see the body in blood.
Speaker 2 00:00:30 Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show, sponsored by Ave Maria University. I'm your host, Michael Dolphine, and today I am joined by friend and colleague, uh, Dr. Jeffrey Walkie, uh, professor of Theology at Avere University. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 0 00:00:44 Well, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 00:00:46 Uh, we're so glad to have you here today to continue our series on the Eucharistic Revival that's been called for by, uh, the, uh, US Catholic bishops. And the bishops are asking us to kind of dive back into the mystery of the Eucharist. Uh, and I think they're doing it, uh, in part one of the things they talk about in the document is because in a certain sense, right, we're, we're an age of loneliness. We're in an age of isolation, an age of maybe fragmentation, individualism, all these different elements. And Christ is right there, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, the, the, the kind of the, the, the one whom we long for is with us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. We are not alone. He has given us his presence Right. In the Eucharist. And, and what a, just a wonderful re reminder, right? We need to kind of, I feel we need to rebrace these themes, uh, so that we can really, uh, carry out, uh, this eucharistic revival first in us, right?
Speaker 2 00:01:52 And then in others, uh, it's interesting, the, they actually are, the bishops are calling for a three year revival, uh, I think first at the diocesan level, then at the parish level, uh, which, uh, will be, I think in the summer of 2023, and then the last year will be a great national, uh, Eucharistic Congress. Uh, but then there's a year four, which is mission. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is how do we go share the good news? But I remember in some ways, right, you can, you have to first like, is this really not something merely that I believe to be true, but in a way, has it entered into the kind of deep core beliefs that motivate and guide, uh, you know, my daily living mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and so, uh, there's just so much here, uh, that I'd love to do. And, and for today, I've really asked you on the show to help help our listeners kind of, and viewers dive into this understanding of, right. How do we think about, uh, approaching the Eucharist, especially through Right. The common doctor of the church. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> St. Thomas Aquinas, uh, so kind of focusing on, uh, Aquinas and the Eucharist. Now you've been teaching, I think, the sacraments course at the graduate level at Abe Maria, uh, for probably, what about five or more years now?
Speaker 0 00:03:05 This is my sixth year. This is
Speaker 2 00:03:07 Your sixth year. Yeah. So, so it's wonderful. You teach all course on the sacraments, uh, right. You, you then, you know, teach the Eucharist, uh, kind of with the teachings of Aquinas, uh, and so, right. This is something you've, you know, you've, uh, pondered greatly not only what the mystery is, but how to hand on the mystery mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, to students. Uh, and so I think it's just a, a wonderful opportunity, uh, for our listeners and, and viewers to be able to kind of like get a peek a little, like a little window into, uh, your class even before we talk about Right. The Eucharist, per se. What are, uh, like what are things that you want students to understand about the sacraments, kind of in general? Uh, maybe what are some confusions or misunderstandings that you think students often bring in that you can help redirect, or at least ones that are maybe common in our age or culture? Right. How, how do you want to set up the class so that students can kind of learn what you're trying to teach?
Speaker 0 00:04:07 Well, I, I think there are two things that I, I tried to get at, at the very beginning of the semester. One of them has to do with liturgy considered broadly as formation of, of the human being. And as we go through some of the texts, like spirit of the liturgy or, or even, uh, documents from Vatican two, I think it's important for them to just recognize it. They might know it, but maybe it just kind of passes by, uh, that the day is marked Liturgically, the hour is marked liturgically. Mm. The month is marked Liturgically time and space. All of it is marked liturgically in the Catholic life. Um, and in a way, even though it might not feel like you're going to the gym and you're working on, uh, certain muscle groups or something, but you're, you are being habituated into a certain way of living, or can be.
Speaker 0 00:04:59 Yeah. Um, yeah. And so that it's a real opportunity, uh, to, to take seriously what's going on, uh, in the liturgy. But then of course, once we get to the Eucharist, the, um, the significance of that we go through for a long time, <laugh>. Um, the other thing has to do with, I think it, it's been recognized by some theologians that at certain times, say maybe in the last several hundred years, sacramental theology was sometimes reduced to validity. Like ta conversations about validity. Did it happen? Did the sacrament happen? Did, did, is this person ordained? Is the Eucharist there? And then with liturgical renewals of the 19th century and then into the 20th century, I think there were starting to draw back on the, the patristic period, the medieval period, and really show the richness, the intellectual richness, the spiritual richness, um, of the th uh, well and scriptural richness of the sacraments. Um, yeah. So, you know, going, digging into scripture and showing all the various places whether Old Testament are new, uh, how God has been revealing the, these things to us, or pointing forward to what Christ is going to, uh,
Speaker 2 00:06:13 Interesting. Yeah. And I think those two themes really go together, because part of the way we're being formed and shaped and habituated in the liturgical right practices is so that the liturgy can bear fruit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? And so that's, it's not merely just right, is it a valid or an invalid, although, you know, let's hope it's a valid, right. Right. So obviously that's important, but also, what are the fruits that this baptism is meant to bear? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what are the fruits, right. That the mass that the Eucharist is meant to bear, uh, right. If the sac, if the mass is a kind of, uh, uh, sacrifice of thanksgiving, right? Eucharist is actually right, the, uh, Greek for Thanksgiving. Uh, that, how, how do we let that bear fruit in our lives so that we live lives of thanksgiving, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, kind of eucharistic lives, uh, in ways that we, you know, so that, that, you're right.
Speaker 2 00:07:07 I think that sense of the, that the liturgical renewal, uh, that's been going on for a while, right? Beginning, you know, around the turn of the century, the turn of last century in 19 hundreds, uh, St. Pius the 10th, uh, was such a great lover of, uh, the Eucharist. He encouraged a lot of daily reception, also lowered the age for first communion so people could begin to receive, right? But the idea wasn't merely just to kind of check off more boxes, right? The goal was to Right. Help, help Christians discover, uh, right. The, you know, the, the great meaning in their lives that comes from participating in the very relationship of the son to the father, which is given to us, right? In the Eucharist mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, I, I think those are, uh, really beautiful themes. Well,
Speaker 0 00:07:55 I might add one more thing. What you, you bring up that we wanted to bear fruit. Yeah. And this, a nice image that I use Al in almost every class I teach is, uh, from St. Thomas's inaugural lectures of a mountain. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> receiving rain, and then the, the water flowing down the mountain and then burying fruit at the foot of the mountain. And so you have this idea of sacred wisdom. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> coming down to the mountain. There's nothing the mountain can do to get it. It can't jump up and go get it. It has to wait to receive it from the cloud. Yes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so we wait to receive from God, but then as teachers and students, and then students become teachers all the way down through the tradition, we're passing it on that it might bear fruit. Now, ultimately, that fruit's eternal life. Yeah. But you can make an analogous case for what we're receiving. And, and Ratzinger, you know, is big on this, is that, that we, we wait and we receive from God what proper worship is, and we don't, we don't make it up ourselves. Mm-hmm. Because then it might become self-assertion or something like that. And so this image of the mountain we were receiving how to worship, and we pass it on that at my bear
Speaker 2 00:09:04 Fruit. Yeah. I love that image from, uh, Ratzinger, uh, of course, uh, later became Pope Benedict. Um, uh, and but that idea that the givenness of the liturgy, the givenness of revelation, and that we have to be receptive, and, uh, what a great image, uh, that you just gave us from Aquinas, that idea, right. That the mountains Right. Can do nothing to earn water. Right. They have to just wait to receive it. Uh, but once they do, then if they transmit it as water mm-hmm. <affirmative>, then it can, of course bear fruit. Uh, so that's really a wonderful, uh, image of, of thinking about it. Now, one thing I think that maybe just to kind of, I don't know, like, you know, raise an objection or certainly I know when, uh, you know, when I was studying theology, maybe in the nineties, uh, there were a lot of liturgical theologians, sacramental theologians that were kind of dissenting from the classical teachings of the church.
Speaker 2 00:10:05 And they were almost so focused on trying to make the liturgy relevant to make, kind of, to make sure that we could understand the fruit that was born. Uh, that the emphasis became more on the community and the celebration, and the idea that the sacraments are symbols, or not, not only symbols, but they were merely symbols that Right. Baptism is the entrance into the community, or Right. The Eucharist is a meal of friendship and fellowship as Jesus welcomed sinners. And, uh, you know, these sorts of different things. And, and there was almost maybe a tendency to make things, wanna make things so relevant, uh, that they would often, and these were really dissenting theologians mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, but, but they were pretty influential mm-hmm. <affirmative> in, in a lot of, uh, circles within Catholic theology, you know, again, where the, the kind of the, the symbolic element became so, became overwhelming, and they almost thought that, I don't know how to put it, that the more doctrinally, the more we held to the doctrine of the sacraments, uh, somehow we were taking away from the, the meaning of the sacraments. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so, you know, how, how, how do you respond to those, uh, to those kind of readings that want to make the sacraments ultimately really symbolic?
Speaker 0 00:11:26 Well, I think, I mean, a few things. Uh, for one, I, I think it, it, it's not just say, a Catholic problem, that, and I, and I'm a convert myself, um, that even within the Protestant world, there, there's sometimes an emphasis on being attractive to bring people in. Um, and I, I don't really, I don't sympathize with that very much, to be honest, because shouldn't Christ's presence be attractive enough? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and, and so making things more attractive or making it more about the community, which of Ratzinger would've no patience for. Yeah. Because anytime it turns us in on ourselves or on someone else, um, we're no longer worshiping God or we're effectively worshiping ourselves. Um, I like how he, you know, any, if anything draws applause, then that was probably not something <laugh> that, that was appropriate for, for
Speaker 2 00:12:32 The mask. Right. The whole mask is an applause to God. Right. Right. It says, God to God be the glory. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:12:38 Absolutely. So, if, if it's the music, it can be beautiful, but it should be lifting us up to God. And so that sort of focus, I, I don't have much sympathy with the symbolic stuff, um, is, is is a bit odd to me, insofar as, um, we, if we say Christ is present, and Christ told us he'd be present, um, I mean, that's a significant aspect of what it means to be friends in the ancient world. And so, uh, to be present is, is one of one way. You're, you are a friend and he's making himself present. He's making us, uh, himself a, a friend. But if it, if it starts to move too much toward symbolic, it's nice to have a picture of your friend Yeah. That's pointing towards your friend. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but that's, that's not quite the same sort of presence at all. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, so not someone there to be with you and, and, and well literally commune. Um, and, and so the moves to that sort of thing, not only does it move away from the traditional understanding of how Christ is there, and maybe even more towards a, a Protestant perspective, um, it, it just seems to evacuate the idea of his presence mm-hmm. <affirmative> as friend.
Speaker 2 00:13:50 Yeah. Right. And in some ways, the only way perhaps that the sacraments and the liturgy can truly bear fruit is when they are truly something. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they have to have a real density, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, a real veracity that, that it's the doctrinal and metaphysical reality that allows us to have the transforming experience that's so that like Right. Being baptized is, is an entrance into a community. Right. But it's better mm-hmm. <affirmative> than merely mm-hmm. <affirmative> the entrance into the community of the people you're there. It's entering into the communion of the saints. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And, and that's something, that's all. And, but that's what gives it meaning mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because ultimately in this world, we're also facing, like, we're facing major things like death and suffering, and do we have meaning Right. Beyond this life? And I think that's in a certain sense, what the sacraments promise us in their, again, their, their their in, in their doctrinal richness. Right.
Speaker 0 00:14:46 Right. And, um, that they, they contain and confer grace, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is hugely significant, and that there's been debates about what that means through the years, but I mean, that it is affecting something, it's significant. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, I, I think we all probably at points lose sight of that when we're at mass, we're getting distracted, and, and we don't really recognize, uh, the, how that's a mercy, my God, to to be conferring grace in the sacraments. Um, and if that's not the case, if it, I mean, I, I think Ratzinger has the little line about, it'd be like a bank, no, nothing backing a bank. No, no. It'd just be a piece of paper. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I, I, that sounds right. Like if you, if you don't really think it's conferring anything, then yeah,
Speaker 2 00:15:33 It's a check. You can't cash,
Speaker 0 00:15:35 You check, you can't cash. That's not,
Speaker 2 00:15:36 That's not the kind I want. Right? Uh, yeah. It'd be like a, you know, bouncing checks. I like that. That's, uh, the problem with much of modern theology, <laugh>. Uh, so you know, that, that that image you just present there or presented there, uh, I think it's, it's, it's really kind of a rich one, uh, to think about. What, what would you say in a way is kind of as, as, as we turn to Aquinas, uh, what are some maybe of, of the key principles that Aquinas brings to his teaching of the Eucharist, uh, that help us, you know, kind of receive these realities more fully?
Speaker 0 00:16:12 Well, I mean, he's, um, largely using, uh, philosophical categories to sort of make intelligible this, this idea that Christ is present and he's drawing on Aristotle very often. And, you know, one of the key distinctions that he makes is going to be between substance and accident. And, um, and, and, and briefly, I mean, the substances exist of itself, and, and an accident has to exist in a, a substance. And so, you know, I'm a human being, right? Substantial, my substantial form, you might say. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the form of what I am is to be a human being, but then I'm six feet tall is an accident to that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if I feel, if for some reason, when
Speaker 2 00:16:54 You get older, when you get older and you become five 10, that's a change in your appearance. Right. It's change in your accidents, but it's not, you're not a, you're still a human being.
Speaker 0 00:17:03 I'm still a human being. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:04 I think one thing that's difficult there too is when we talk about this aspect of sometimes we think of substance in modern terminology in a kind of material sense. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> substance is that which we can touch mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, you can feel something substantially. That's the way we use the word. But the word is, you're describing it, it's not the substance you touch, it's the essence that you are. Right. So your personhood, your human nature is more than your, than your flesh that I touch.
Speaker 0 00:17:35 Absolutely. And I, this is significant in a lot of ways, even if you get into moral questions or questions of, uh, social justice mm-hmm. <affirmative> and these kinds of things, because recognizing that there are all these differences. So, you know, suppose somebody is, is, you know, intellectually incapacitated or something like this. Yeah. That's, that's not a change in their substance, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so we they have dignity Yeah. Regardless of that accident. That accident is not, doesn't define them. Yeah. An unborn
Speaker 2 00:18:06 Child cannot speak. Right? Right. An unborn child, unborn child may not really have, uh, what we would, I don't know, you know, it is not gonna have advanced levels of understanding. Right. But it's, what is it? Right. It's like obvious. What is it? It's a child. It's a child. It's in that sense of Yeah. That, that, and
Speaker 0 00:18:24 It's accidentally in a sense at this stage mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's an ac mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's, it's an accident to what it is that, that it's at that stage mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, uh, the, these categories are really helpful and, and, you know, substance is that what stands under. Right. And so, it, it's, we're through and through what we are mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, and so that distinction just to have, it begins to be very helpful in, in sort of articulating the Eucharist
Speaker 2 00:18:51 Now, I think, uh, Aquinas is, uh, certainly one of kind of the, the great teachers of the, what we call the doctrine of transubstantiation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was actually, um, affirmed in the Council of Larin mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, which is in 1215. And it wasn't really taught at 1215 as though this was a new teaching that they were clarifying. They were really just stating it mm-hmm. <affirmative> as a reality. Um, it's not really until later, really in the Council of Trent mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that there were, I mean, there had been eucharistic, uh, debates and controversies off and on Sure. But that it was really, uh, denied. But, you know, but this idea that, you know, trans instantiation, uh, the Council of Trent, I'm just reading from the catechism here, says, because Christ our redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread. It has always been the conviction of the Church of God. And this holy council now declares again that by the consecration of bread and wine, there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of our Lord, and of the whole substance in, of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change, the Holy Catholic church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, so Right. This is what's articulated. How would you explain transubstantiation kind of, uh, you know, in simple terms?
Speaker 0 00:20:19 Well, if we think about sort of, there's two sides to it. I mean, there's the body and blood of Christ, and then there's the accidents of the bread and wine. What the doctrine is, is trying to, to clarify with transubstantiation, is that the accidents of the bread and wine, how it tastes, what texture it has, you know, how much, how, how much does it weigh? Yeah. These kinds of things. Those, that remains, right. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but what is transformed is the substance, what underlies it, what's behind you might say, the accidents. And that's the bo the body and blood of Christ. And so even though visibly, or even with touch mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it, it appears to be bread and wine. Those are just accidents that have the substance of body, of the body and blood behind it. And so if, I mean, you're still gonna, like I said, taste the wine, you're, it's gonna have all these effects that it would have otherwise. Um, but
Speaker 2 00:21:15 Yeah, I remember there was, I think, uh, I don't know, some, some atheist or somebody anyway, who they, they, uh, did a electron microscope of the Eucharist, and they said it's still bread mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, you know, like Aquinas knew that, right. That it's gonna look like bread all the way down materially mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. You know, that's not, that's not news.
Speaker 0 00:21:35 It's absolutely not news. I think. Yeah, I know, I know the case you're talking about. Um, but like, we don't, we see the bread and wine with our eyes. Yeah. But with the eyes of faith, we see the body and blood, um, and oh, that's so well put. It's, it's not unlike the way that, um, when someone in first century Palestine is encountering this man, Jesus, everyone can see that he's a man, but only the eyes of faith can see that he's a man and God at the same time. And so there's, there is something that faith affects, um, that allows us to, to then, uh, see that. Um, but that it's Christ substantially, it opens up so much more richness to understanding what's going on in communion, because if we're uniting with him, we could, you know, certain traditions, and maybe even within Catholicism at certain times, there could be a, a tendency toward individualism or something like that. Um, where it's me and Jesus, I'm uniting with Jesus. But the thing is, everyone else is uniting with Jesus. Hmm. And so, insofar as each of us is united with Jesus, we're united with each other, and so we're becoming the community that is his body.
Speaker 2 00:22:49 Right.
Speaker 0 00:22:50 Wow. And, but not just that. So we could think of that as the, you know, the present community, but we're uniting ourselves with the others who are in communion with him in heaven. So we're participating in the heavenly sanctuary. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so the communion of science, or, and everybody's united through him, um, okay. That's one community, another community. But now, uh, space and time, we're uniting with everyone else who's communing at that time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then we're also uniting with Calvary and the cross itself. And so, and then we're uniting with sort of an eschatological reality that's yet to come. We're sort of in the, you know, already, but not yet stage that it, that is the, the church. Um, so it, that we can commune substantially, just opens up all of these other ways of thinking about what we're doing
Speaker 2 00:23:42 Now. That's, that's, that's so powerful. Um, I, I love the idea too. I, I'm sos when I, you know, you teach, uh, students or talk to people about this, is we want to be, we're, we're used to thinking of transation, right? Yeah. <laugh>. So instead of trans substantiation, if we talk about transation, if I look at a picture myself when I was three, or when I was 13, or when I was 30, or now that I'm 50. Right. You know, it's, the pictures look different. Right. Absolutely. <laugh>. Right. You know, I'm changing on the outside. My accidents, my appearances are changing, but my, my, my, the identity of myself over time is Right. So that we're, so that's what we're used to within the world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're used to these kinds of, of changes of appearances mm-hmm. <affirmative> right here we have. Right. And of course, it's a miracle, just like the incarnation is a miracle. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think, uh, blaze, Pascal, uh, has something, uh, beautiful where he's, he's writing, uh, in the, uh, not only in the time after the Reformation, but the time after Decart, and a lot of both philosophical and religious questioning. Um, but at one point he says, you know, if you can believe in the incarnation, I mean the, the,
Speaker 0 00:24:50 What's the problem with the Eucharist? The
Speaker 2 00:24:51 Eucharist isn't, isn't hard to believe in. Uh, but that idea that in the Eucharist we simply have the reverse, it now is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, because God said so. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and when he said, let there be light, there was light mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And when he said, this is my body and blood, it truly becomes his body and blood. Uh, but God continues Right. To approach us in the sensible ways that it's appropriate for us to eat bread and drink wine. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So he comes to us in appearances that are suitable to our nature. Right. And it kind of reminds me, by the way, just to like, uh, kind of close that whole circle. If we come back to that earlier discussion of the symbolic character of the sacraments, the whole beauty of the sacraments is that God comes to meet us ins sensible signs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Aquinas will say that it's a, we're sensible beings. We understand the intelligible through the sensible. So it's kind of kind and fitting of God to come meet us in scripture and in the sacraments and in the incarnation through sensible signs, and to heal
Speaker 0 00:25:54 Us where we're hurt. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:25:55 Exactly.
Speaker 0 00:25:56 Um, because it, you know, it's down here that we're hurt. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:26:01 Right. You know, it's our hearts that hurt, not just our minds. Right. And so, you know, and, and, and, and so what a, you know, it's like, it's kind of how, how, I don't know how strange of human beings then to take what is so beautiful of God that he communicates his very self to us mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the means of sensible signs. And then we say, okay, let's just focus on the signs. Like the whole beauty of the signs is that they are signs of God's presence, God's healing power. Uh, you know, we're coming up on a break. Uh, so, uh, let's go ahead and, uh, pause for a minute and, and when we come back, uh, let's, I wanna make sure, let's talk a little bit more. Uh, I love the fact that you said transation kind of bears fruit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So let's talk a little bit more about the way Aquinas, uh, emphasizes some of those things. And then I also really would like to turn to, uh, right. Aquinas is not only a great doctor. I mean, he is a doctor of the church, and he's of course a brilliant theologian. Uh, certainly one of, uh, you know, the most brilliant. But he was also a great poet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. And he, he, he wrote beautiful hymns about, uh, the Eucharist for the Feast of Corpus Christi at the request of the Pope. Uh, so when we come back, let's, uh, let's dive into some of
Speaker 0 00:27:10 Those. Sounds great.
Speaker 3 00:27:18 You're listening to the Catholic Theology Show presented by Ave Maria University. If you'd like to support our mission, we invite you to prayerfully consider joining our Annunciation Circle, a monthly giving program aimed at supporting our staff, faculty, and Catholic faith formation. You can visit
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Speaker 2 00:27:45 Welcome back to the Catholic Theology Show. And, uh, our guest today is Dr. Jeffrey Walkie, who teaches theology at Ave Maria University. And, uh, we've been talking with him today, uh, especially about the mystery of the Eucharist, as seen through, uh, St. Thomas Aquinas, uh, right. Uh, the, the common, uh, the angelic doctor. And so, again, welcome to the show again, and thank you for being here.
Speaker 0 00:28:11 Thank you again as well.
Speaker 2 00:28:13 Excellent. So, we were talking a little bit about kind of trying to really un not only understand what the doctrine of transubstantiation means, but also like why it's a meaningful doc mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like how it becomes meaningful mm-hmm. <affirmative> for us mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, you know, what are some things you might say, maybe, what are other ways of thinking about, right. The Eucharist that might become, I don't know, you know, less meaningful? Why did the church reject them? Why did the church hold to this particular expression?
Speaker 0 00:28:46 You mean transubstantiation? Yeah. Uh, well, as we sort of talked about earlier, I mean that he's really present mm-hmm. <affirmative> is, is significant, if nothing else, like psychologically, that when you, when you're going to mass, you're going to encounter the Lord. It's also scriptural. Yeah. Which, um, even though it's articulated in philosophical terms mm-hmm. <affirmative> that have been appropriated by the church, it's, it's John six mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and so being Catholics and being scripturally based, um, it's important that we do what he tells us too. Yeah. Not mm-hmm. <affirmative>, not as if he's a dictator or a tyrant or something mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but, um, that it, it's good for us.
Speaker 2 00:29:28 Yeah. That's, um, uh, well, but I think it's, I remember, uh, one thing that Aquinas teaches in the Suma and the ter ship parts where he speaks about the sacraments. He, on the Eucharist, he says that, um, somehow kind of the Eucharist is somewhere in between creation mm-hmm. <affirmative> and natural changes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and, uh, he says that like creation, creation when God creates, has nothing, and then he creates out of it something. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. He says, there's no kind of common subject. There was nothing. And now there's something. Right. And he says, in a certain sense, right. The trans substantiation is kind of like that. It's, it's weird. There was bread, now there is, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, now there is, you know, the body and blood of Jesus Christ. And, and some people wonder, well, how can that be? Cuz where's the common subject?
Speaker 2 00:30:22 But the whole point of it is that there's not a common subject because it's like creation. And in many ways, you know, if you're familiar with the biblical, um, you know, how, how central biblical imagery is, say to the beginning of John, it's not just John six, right. About the Eucharist. Right. All of John one is about the new creation. It's he's, you know, the gospel of John and the Holy Spirit, uh, helping, uh, to speak through John is saying, right in the beginning was the word. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And then this word becomes flesh. Uh, and there's all sorts of other interesting parallels. They're like, you know, seven days, right. And John, and seven days of creation. And so in a way, it's the new creation. So if there's a new creation, then the Eucharist in a certain sense, is the new creation par salons. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, and I think that's kind of a, a neat thing. So yes, to a certain extent it's miraculous, but so is creation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 2 00:31:14 Like creation is miraculous. We could never, we can't ever see ourselves being created mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. It's something we just have to believe on faith. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's actually interesting in Milton's Paradise Lost, one of the things he has, uh, the character of Satan do is Satan denies the fact that he was created. He says, how do we know we were created? How do we know we haven't always existed? <laugh>, you know, why do I have to owe my obedience to the son of God? How do I know he created me? Um, and, and, and in a way, right, the Eucharist is that sense of like, wait a second. You know? Yeah. The creation is a miracle. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, and, and the Eucharist is a miracle, right. Um, but they're miracles that give life. We live within creation, and then we, in the Eucharist, we live the new life of the new creation. Anyway, I just love that kind of imagery that Aquinas gives us. Right.
Speaker 0 00:32:05 And it, it's the, this notion of new creation, I mean, it's not, it's not just John, but it's, it's in continuity with a, a way of thinking from Israel is that the flood is new creation. The exodus is new creation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> crossing the Jordan is new creation. New creation is just peppered throughout. Yeah. And, and the imagery that shows up in the flood narrative, that's also from the creation narrative, and then what happens mm-hmm. <affirmative> at Exodus and it's, or it's in the creation. Yeah. All these sorts of things mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's, it, unbeknownst to us, it was pointing to Christ the whole time, and the new creation that he brings. Um, and so that, that there's this great continuity with the old and the new mm-hmm. <affirmative> Testament mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I think is significant as well. Um, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:32:52 Yeah. So I, anyway, I think it, like, that sometimes can be a helpful way maybe for people who, who struggle with the, you know, miraculous character, to see that it's not arbitrary. Right. This is, this is part of kind of the fulfillment of the whole plan of God. Right, right. In the Eucharist, um, one of the things that Aquinas says in his commentary on the gospel of John, is he says that in the Eucharist, the whole of Christ's passion is present. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So he says, all the effects of the passion and even of the resurrection can be attributed to the Eucharist because Right. The Eucharist is basically Jesus Christ and the whole of his passion and resurrection. Uh, so could you, you know, maybe just talk a little bit more about that.
Speaker 0 00:33:39 Well, I mean, we're participating in his offering of himself, and, and earlier I spoke about, you know, part, the, the, it's participated in the cross, it's participating in s geologically. Yes. I mean, we're entering into, or at least some in some way, to that offering of the lamb, uh, in the heavenly sanctuary. Um, and it, it's just, I mean, it's just sort of a beautiful thing mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and it's, um, that, that he would go so far to do that. Now, I mean, this is slightly unrelated, but when we think about what's going on in transubstantiation, and that by virtue of it we're participating because it, it, it, it takes up Yes. Ev the whole passion. Right. And, and so it's his body that's there that was on the cross, and that it's being, that's being offered, uh, in heaven, but it's not just, you might say Christ as well, because if you think about, um, this is gonna be a technical term, the word Yeah, please the word concomitants.
Speaker 2 00:34:41 Okay. Uh,
Speaker 0 00:34:42 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, something comes with something else. Uh, and this is sort of a partial explanation of why is it that we can receive only the, the host and not have to receive the wine, um, is that it comes with it. So it's, it's in mm-hmm. <affirmative>, those are united in Christ. And so when we receive the body, we're also in a way receiving the blood. Yeah. Um, but also,
Speaker 2 00:35:05 And also the soul and also
Speaker 0 00:35:08 Right, right. Right. So it, by virtue of this
Speaker 2 00:35:11 Concomitants
Speaker 0 00:35:12 Concomitants what comes with it Yeah. But in a sort of extended sense, we're what comes with Christ is the Father in the Holy Spirit. Um, and, and yeah, this isn't touched on very much. I think Mathaias, Shaban Shaban, uh, 19th century theologian talks about it. Um, but that there is this sense that, I mean, we, most of the time we're talking about the way we're communing with Christ, and that is sort of the heart of it, but there's also a sense in which the Trinity is there too, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2 00:35:41 Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a beautiful thing, right. That in the Eucharist we're receiving the Holy Spirit, we're receiving, uh, the son, we're receiving the father.
Speaker 0 00:35:51 Yeah. Now, not substantially. Yeah. It's not substantially That's, they're not a, they're not, it's not, it's not a real presence per se.
Speaker 2 00:35:57 Yeah. And in some ways, this goes even to, I think Ephesians two 18 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, where Paul will say that, you know, it's, it's through the, it's in the spirit, through the son, through Christ that we have access to the Father mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. We're, uh, and, and you see that within the Eucharistic liturgy. Right. It's, it's in the spirit through the son to the Father. But all of that is our reality. We're really entering into the very mystery opportunity.
Speaker 0 00:36:23 Absolutely. So the pa it's the passion. Yes. It's the whole thing. Yeah. But it's, it's also, there's, there's more.
Speaker 2 00:36:28 Yeah. And it's all that the passion was meant to accomplish, which is really to restore us to that Trinitarian life. Um, and, you know, it also, Aquinas also speaks, you know, you can, um, uh, maybe develop this. Aquinas also talks about the whole Christ. Right. So the whole Christ, we're not only the Concomitants is the, um, mutual indwelling of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit together. Um, but what's the whole Christ for Aquinas, you know, the certain sense of the Totus Christus as was described, uh, by Augustine?
Speaker 0 00:37:02 Well, I mean, at least in part, it has to do with what you noted earlier. I mean, body, blood, soul, divinity Yes. And, and all that. But then, but also the body that is the people mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and these kinds of things, um, that, that he is gonna highlight.
Speaker 2 00:37:16 Yeah. Right? Yeah. We don't just receive in a way, um, you know, to kind of put an arresting image in our heads. Right. We don't dec receive a decapitated head. Right. Right. We receive Christ in his head and Christ in his body.
Speaker 0 00:37:31 Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:37:32 Right. And that's, that's kind of w weird. I mean, what does it mean to say that we receive in the Eucharist Right. Other members of the body of Christ. Right. That when I go to mass, I'm somehow, I mean Right. That seems kind of like, I think people might just wanna receive Jesus not have to receive their neighbor <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:37:52 True. Yes. Uh, now, I mean, part of it is we have to remember that, I mean, we're talking about his substance. Right. And, and, um, I, I, you know, some people, like, are we eating his hair or something like that, and we need, or the whole of his body, well, substantially. I mean, when we start to think about, you know, the whole of him, you might, you're starting to talk about qualities and accidents and that sort of stuff. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're receiving him wholly.
Speaker 2 00:38:18 So we've received, in a way his substance, what he is, but without the, his accidents, it's kind of a beautiful saving mystery in a way. Right. We don't,
Speaker 0 00:38:27 It's, it's hard to fathom and Sure. And so, uh, likewise, when we're thinking about, well, in how do we name the, the communion we have with the other people? Yeah. Um, it is a mystery. I mean mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I, I tend to not wanna bring up mystery too soon, very often. Okay. Um, because I think sometimes we can go further than others might think we can in terms of making intelligible this, this, this thing. It is a mystery though. Yeah. Uh, the way, like how are we attached to these other people mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but we are in, we are in Christ, and by virtue of being his body, um, we're the various members. Um, it's, it's through him.
Speaker 2 00:39:09 Yeah. The one image that I found helpful is that substantially Christ's body and blood, soul and divinity are present. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's the transubstantiation. I'm not receiving, I'm receiving the flesh of Jesus. I'm not receiving the flesh of Jeff Walkie mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right, right. Um, but Aquinas says we are part of the full effect of communion is that I am united to the body mm-hmm. <affirmative> Right. Um, in faith and love mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. So that I end up with kind of a moral union mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Not a, not a substantial union, but a moral union, so that when I receive Christ, I receive in a certain sense all of Christ, and I receive everyone Christ loves. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. It's like, if I know you, I don't even not even know your children very well, but I kind of already love them or have affection for them because Right. They're the children of my friend. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, so in that sense, we do have a deep, genuine, meaningful union that I think Aquinas, uh, really emphasized, right. That this, this orientation of us to the body of Christ is very important. Right. And in that sense, it's very real. The fact that it's not substantially present doesn't mean that it's any less real. It's just a different mode that's appropriate for different human beings coming together in love.
Speaker 0 00:40:29 Right. And I, I going back to something you mentioned earlier mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, just the, the doctrine, the difficulty that people have with the doctrine, thinking about substance or whatever, um, is that we do think materially Yes. And so we think about stuff and how stuff is united, like how, how's this table put together? Yeah. And so mostly I think when we think about, you know, uniting to something you think some physical reality, and
Speaker 2 00:40:56 I think that like glue, like the glue, two pieces of wood together, and this is union.
Speaker 0 00:41:00 Exactly. And so I think that can sometimes, you know, blur what's actually going on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and like you said, with that, it be a moral union. It's not a substantial union, but it's also not a physical union. So sometimes I think, whether through catechesis or whatever is that you sort of don't go down those blind alleys.
Speaker 2 00:41:19 And moral unions might turn out to be probably perhaps the, the deepest unions that we know as human beings. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the, you know, the, oh, you know, the love is stronger than death. I don't know. These just kind of basic images that, uh, you know, the love we might have for family members, the love we might have for close friends, uh, these sorts of loves are, I don't know, I mean, you know, they, they are in a certain sense the strongest mm-hmm. <affirmative> ties that we absolutely experience. So to see this kind of taken up into the Eucharist is not, is, uh, is not a small thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and I, I love to, uh, turning a little bit here. We also remember Aquinas, right? Is, is not only of course, a saint because his teaching is maybe kind of angelic mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:42:06 <affirmative>, you know, of sorts, but also because Right. He is a great lover of Jesus Christ mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, right. A Aquinas is one who, when, when he wanted to become a Dominican, because he wanted just to, you know, kind of live in this evangelical freedom of preaching the gospel, uh, his right, his older brothers who were knights in a castle Right. Locked him up mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, for over a year. And at one point, even sent in a prostitute to try to like dissuade him of his vocation to be a Dominican. Uh, and so he is a great, like, he loves Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and he's willing to a certain extent, you know, sacrifice, uh, it's kind of beautiful. One time they send in his sister apparently too, to try to convince him. And anyway, she leaves, uh, with the decision to enter a convent <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:42:51 Uh, so, uh, he, I think he won that battle. Exactly. He was kind of persuasive. Uh, and so there's a story by one of his biographers that after he'd written, uh, the sec, the, the 73 to 83 of the Teria pars, he puts it on the altar, and he spends time in prayer. And basically he's just like, you know, Jesus, whatever I've written here, this is for you. And I think it's a beautiful image for all theology that yes, we need to think about God, we need to think about the mysteries of faith. If we don't think about the mysteries of faith and try to organize them rightly, we will organize them falsely. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. On the other hand, they are a means to getting to know a person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so he offers them and, and, uh, in the biographers reporting, uh, Jesus somehow in, in some way communicated to Thomas.
Speaker 2 00:43:41 Right. Thomas, you have written well of me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Whatever you ask, I will give you. Uh, right. And he says, Nonni Tay, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> nothing but you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> nothing but you Lord. Um, he doesn't want anything earthly. He doesn't even want the success of the Dominican, or he doesn't want the conversion of the albigensians. He doesn't want the union with the Greeks, which he was also working on. I mean, all of these things would've been wonderful, but he just, nothing but you. Right. And that ran a certain sense is like a beautiful summary, I think, of Thomas life, but also of his devotion to the Eucharist. Right. The Eucharist is that certain sense in which, yes, we want everything, we want all the problems of the earth to somehow be fixed. We want our loved ones to be fixed. We want the church's problems to be fixed, but fundamentally Right. If we're gonna be happy mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what we learned from Aquinas is we want nothing but you, Lord. Right.
Speaker 0 00:44:30 And, and it's unfortunate how common I think people, when they think of Thomas, they just think of his intellect. And I think it does him a disservice. Um, even in, in my own education, uh, I went to a, a Protestant divinity school, and during a lecture, one of the, it was a ta I think, so maybe I'll be nice, but he, he drew a picture on the board of this figure with a giant head <laugh>, and it was Aquinas that he was just this hyper rationalist that all, and I was just like, he's a virtue ethicist. <laugh>. Like he, like and his love of Jesus, like all these different things. And it is great. It's, I mean, it's a, it's a treasure for the, for the tradition that he has written all that he does. Yeah. Or has mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but I think sometimes people forget. Yeah. What a wonderful mm-hmm. <affirmative> person he is. He is a saint. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:45:25 So during the 13th century, uh, the 12 hundreds, uh, he, there's a greater devotion to the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The Feast of Corpus Christi Yep. Is, uh, I think initiated by, uh, um, you know, by a woman, uh, uh, you know, I think Saint eventually, but I can't remember her name right now, but neither. Um, but, uh, and she pleads to the Pope, the Pope agrees to set up the Feast of Corpus Christi. We still celebrate it today. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the Pope asks Thomas Aquinas to write the liturgy. Right. The hymns, the sequence, the mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so can you tell us anything about Right. These great hymns of the Feast of Corpus Christi, what do they tell us both about Aquinas's Eucharistic theology, but also his devotion?
Speaker 0 00:46:17 I mean, there, there's just a lot of joy, I think. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in mm-hmm. <affirmative> in some of, in, in, in, in sort of a thankfulness mm-hmm. <affirmative> in what he, what he's, uh, saying, uh, talking about deliverance and talking about redemption and these various things, and, and that, you know, God would stoop, uh, to, to come down to us. And it that, I mean, sure, it comes out of a lot of study, um, but it, it seems there's something more going on there that it just is coming out of just a deep devotion that he has, that he's able to, uh, to pen what he does. Yeah. Um, and it, I think it is reflective of his, his Yeah. I mean, his devotion to the Eucharist in terms of piety Yeah. But mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but also that it, it surely was informing his, his articulation of the Eucharist in Suma mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and basically trying to tell us what, what a great gift we have here. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:47:16 And there are some beautiful lines there, like P Lingua Gloria Osi. Right. Sing my tongue, the Savior's Glory. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I think another one is like Lada Sion. Right. You know, basically praise Zion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:47:29 And just, I, I adore the mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. Um, so he,
Speaker 2 00:47:33 The, to the Doro.
Speaker 0 00:47:36 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:47:36 Yes. Sorry, ado devotee, which is, um, a lot of, some, some, uh, Christians, some Catholics will pray that every Thursday. Mm-hmm. Right. Every Thursday can be a remembrance, just as every Friday is a remembrance of the passion. Every Thursday is a remembrance of the institution of the Eucharist. Mm-hmm. Right. The prayer of the ado dev devotee. Right. Devoutly, I adore you. Oh, hidden God.
Speaker 0 00:48:00 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And I think, again, it just thinking about how Thomas is actually is often thought about that, you know, he writes, you know, in a, the form of, of the time with Disputations mm-hmm. <affirmative> and this kind of stuff. And for some, maybe that's not their cup of tea, and they just see this giant intellect or Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:48:19 Whatever.
Speaker 0 00:48:20 Um, but what they, they forget is, you know, he's a master of the sacred page. Yeah. He's devoted to Jesus. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so all of that that we might see in the Suma is growing out of this devotion to scripture and to Christ mm-hmm. <affirmative> and a reflection on it, and then teaching on it because, you know, as seriously as he takes teaching, you know, the student needs to be humble and obedient in, in a sense, but he's back to the image of the mountain. One of the great virtues of the good teacher is to be humble and obedient too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because you're humbly receiving something from somebody else, but then you're obedient to the truth and passing it on. Yeah. And I think mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, going from the sacred page, living the liturgical life, and then eventually writing the Sumos, it's almost, it's almost like that's not as nearly as important mm-hmm. As some of the other stuff that he did.
Speaker 2 00:49:07 And I think that also opens up Aquinas to become a model for all Christians, because it's hard to imitate his intellect. But, but all of us can model in a way, receiving what has been taught mm-hmm. Receiving what scripture is communicated, receiving the beauty of the sacraments, and in our own small way. Right. You know, trying to pass those on mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. You know, uh, so I think that's a beautiful way of moving, uh, through those and, and really seeing Aquinas as Right. Uh, both a teacher, uh, but also an example
Speaker 0 00:49:39 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, and I think, and the, the idea, so, I mean, so many of the, the great intellects of the ancient medieval church we call Saint
Speaker 2 00:49:51 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:49:52 And plenty of modern theologians have noted that that's not always the case anymore. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, is, is that maybe we, I I mean both Asar talking about, you know, prayer and kneeling as being significant for the theologian and all these kinds of things mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that it becomes sort of a discipline theology does, uh, like any other discipline or something. Yeah. And there ends up being this detachment between holiness or in sanctity and, and the intellect. Um, but I mean, he would, he's a prime example going back to be like, I mean, he did it all, like Yeah. And he's a good example. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:50:29 <affirmative>, no, that's very well put. Yeah. It's, uh, to be a theologian is not to be a detached observer mm-hmm. <affirmative> of an empirical phenomenon. Um, uh, but it's to be a participant in mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, right. Uh, in, in the very mysteries of God as they've been communicated and, uh, and then enacted and ultimately really returned mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, to God. So, uh, as as we're closing up, I'd like to ask you three questions. Okay. Uh, so, uh, what's a book you've been reading?
Speaker 0 00:50:58 What's a book I've been reading? Uh, well, uh, I mean, I'm, I'm teaching a PhD seminar seminar, uh, at present on theological ex of Jesus. And we're, we've started moving into sort of, uh, 20th century, um, stuff. So going through returning to Encyclicals, um, really mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but in terms of stuff that's just sort of on the side, um, what, this is a tough question. Uh,
Speaker 2 00:51:26 Maybe is there one of those encyclicals that stands out that you might wanna share with our listeners?
Speaker 0 00:51:32 Well, I mean, we're, we're beginning with Dave Phillies, um, okay. From the first Vatican Council. And, and just trying to think through with the church as it moves into the 20th century, you know, what is re revelation mm-hmm. <affirmative> and how does faith and re how do, how do they relate? And, and what might that mean for how we execute? Meaning how do we interpret Sure. Yeah. Scripture and then moving on. Because the early 20th century is where you start to see a cautious approach to, uh, modern interpretations largely coming out of a Protestant mm-hmm. <affirmative> tradition in terms of like historical studies and everything. And so you see the church just sort of cautiously take a look at this and then mm-hmm. <affirmative> sort of with each subsequent and cyclical, there seems to be a little bit more of an opening to think through how might we do this as Catholics? Yeah. Yeah. Now there's a bad way to do it mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and there's a good way to do it. And, and just try to think through, um, how that's happening. Right.
Speaker 2 00:52:30 Yeah. We're always maintaining that kind of primacy of, of Revelation, which we get from Vatican one and Dave Ilis. But that idea that, um, we're not, you know, we, we, we we're, we're not rationalists. We believe in revelation, but nor are we fes mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we actually believe that revelation is intelligible mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and therefore we can use human sciences and human, uh, studies. So, uh, just next question. Uh, what's a daily practice, uh, that you engage in to draw closer to God?
Speaker 0 00:52:58 Well, I mean, obviously prayer, uh, and, and whether that's with the family or with my classmate, with my students, um, but rosary is sometimes, um, my daughter loves the rosary, and so that's beautiful. Uh, we'll do our best to, um, try to do some, at least maybe a decade or something with, as a family. Um, and then the, um, Jesus prayer has become a little bit more significant, you know, and for me, just, and what
Speaker 2 00:53:32 Is the Jesus prayer for listeners,
Speaker 0 00:53:33 Or it's Lord
Speaker 2 00:53:35 Jesus Christ, son of the Living God have mercy on me. Exactly
Speaker 0 00:53:38 Right.
Speaker 2 00:53:39 And just, there's that tradition, right, of just repeating that almost like breathing, Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on a sinner. We can say it when we're, when we can't sleep at night. Right. We can exactly say it when we're in pain,
Speaker 0 00:53:50 <laugh>, and it's, and, and that, I mean, it becomes just sort of, like you said, it's almost like breathing, like, um, and so that, that's become a more significant part of, of my devotional life. That's
Speaker 2 00:54:03 Beautiful. And just last question, is there a, uh, like a, a a false belief that you held about God, uh, that, that kind of, that you discovered? Right. Uh, something that was, uh, you know, like the truth at some point, uh, it kind of helped you in your own journey.
Speaker 0 00:54:22 Yes. I think the thing that stands out, and it it becomes relevant in so many different ways, is that we're not in a competitive relationship with God. Mm.
Speaker 2 00:54:32 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:54:33 That he so transcends the world, that that's what makes it possible, that he's imminent within it. So it's unlike us where we are three dimensional, you're sitting in that chair, and so far as you're sitting in that chair, I can't, we're in a competitive relationship with respect to space. Yeah. But God's not in that sort of relationship with us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so where that, you know, first started to have an impact on me was starting to think through justification. The, the doctrine of justification mm-hmm. <affirmative> is that, you know, God's will is not in competition with my will. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it doesn't have to be either God did it or I did it, God does it and I do it. Yeah. And so there, there can be a corroboration there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I think in so many various ways in theology, especially say in the modern period, I think so many problems come down to mistakenly thinking God is a being in the world. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like, I'm gonna bump into him. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. And you see this with like the new atheists, like mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the way that they're trying to investigate the world is if God's gonna be this little ball to find or something like that, well, you're not even talking about God. Yeah. And so some theologians have sort of jokingly like, oh, you, you've disproven that. God, I never believed in that God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And so, but yeah. And then thinking through the incarnation and these kinds of things.
Speaker 2 00:55:54 Wow. That's so, that's so helpful. That theme of, uh, that we are not in competition with God, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, how, how, how beautiful. And, uh, so thank you very much for being on our show. Uh,
Speaker 0 00:56:03 Thank you for having
Speaker 2 00:56:04 Me. It's, uh, been a wonderful opportunity to really kind of consider the mystery of the Eucharist with the teaching of, uh, St. Thomas Aquinas. And, uh, for any listeners who might be interested, there are a number of other episodes dedicated, uh, to the Eucharistic Revival. And so thanks again for being on our show, and thanks for listening.
Speaker 0 00:56:21 Well, thanks for what you're doing. And thanks. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 00:56:24 Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. If you like this episode, please write and review it on your favorite podcast app to help others find the show. And if you want to take the next step, please consider joining our Annunciation Circle so we can continue to bring you more free content. We'll see you next time on the Catholic Theology Show.
